From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #161 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, May 22 2002 Volume 05 : Number 161 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re: Rob vs Graeme! [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] A Void in a Mute [RLynn9@aol.com] [idealcopy] Re: Rob vs Graeme! [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Turntable Hell [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Misbehaving Atoms (very long, and half a mile off topic and accelerating) [giluz] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Misbehaving Atoms (very long, and half a mile off topic and accelerating) [Andrew Walkingshaw There seems to be a lot of fighting between you Robert and Graeme no fighting here.....Graeme voiced his opinion in his way and i voiced mine..(and admitted that i was wrong about Colin Newman's Bastard - which would mean that Graeme was right)...no problem on my end....now can we get on with something more important like a top ten list of what we think are Jim Kerr's favorite Gilbert O'Sullivan songs? ; ) RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:17:31 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] A Void in a Mute In a message dated 5/19/02 8:08:56 AM Central Daylight Time, umur_ot@hotmail.com writes: > Robert Rental... > Michael Karoli... > Fad Tovey... > > Who next? > former WWF pro wrassler the British Bulldog Davey Smith RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:15:19 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Rob vs Graeme! In a message dated 5/20/02 8:17:03 PM Central Daylight Time, timrobinson@cwcom.net writes: > "I suppose thats the disadvantage...of not speaking a second language." and what other language do i need to speak?..i am already fluent in Ur and Neanderthal ... ; ) RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:19:28 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Turntable Hell In a message dated 5/19/02 8:08:58 AM Central Daylight Time, umur_ot@hotmail.com writes: > Witnessed in Manchester Friday > Martin Tetreault's Turntable Hell > > When Otomo Yoshihide is in town he should never be missed. > Does Philip Jeck have any upcoming performances in England or anywhere else? RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:38:30 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Misbehaving Atoms (very long, and half a mile off topic and accelerating) on 17/05/02 00:15, Andrew Walkingshaw at andrew-wire@lexical.org.uk wrote: > > Dropping out is all well and good, but I'm not sure in today's society > that it's possible to change things on a significant scale *without* > understanding the system and being able to play it. I'm sure this is > something Daniel Miller will have thought about with the EMI buyout of > Mute; but it's not like there aren't good real-world examples (the > progressive reverse-takeover of China by Hong-Kong) > > In terms of playing the system, in software there's an excellent > real-world example of using copyright against itself, for example (and > I'm not advocating the total abolition of copyright - but there need to > be checks and balances): > > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html > > which uses copyright to grant *additional* rights - the right to freely > modify software - but only if you then allow other people the ability to > use and modify *your* modifications. > > This not only works, it's produced the mailer and text editor I'm using, > the OS that most of my research runs on, and many of the tools I use to > do it. I've released software under this license myself - not as a > political statement, but because that's how I feel the spirit of science > (free reuse and extension) should be upheld. See www.hackerethic.org. Actually don't because this site is either closed or their server's been hacked - a bit ironic since we're talking about the site for the book "The Hacker Ethic" by Pekka Himanen. It's an attempt to create a new work ethic based on computer culture of the last 30 years - a sort of an alternative to the protestant work ethic. > I think my spin on this is a little different. Authoritarianism thrives > on a lack of information: therefore the place to start is to seek (and > become) a credible source of information yourself - or at least, as many > biased viewpoints as possible, and then filter them through one's own > cynicism. Not exactly true - authoritarianism can (and does) also thrive on too much information. > > The Indymedia gang (with a publicity assist from Radiohead, who as a > band were the first I ever got *seriously* into - but who I think are > rather too naive about this issue, but at least they seem to care) are > trying to do this sort of thing, but it's not working; all it takes is > one outlier on their site to shatter the carefully created, homogeneous > image. > > It's the homogeneity of image that they're carefully trying to build - a > brand, essentially - which I think is their greatest weakness. They're > trying to provide a _single brand for non-conformity_, which seems a > contradiction in terms. If they succeed, all they are is another > pressure group with an internally-conformist set of viewpoints; if they > fail, they've just diluted any credibility they might have had by their > failing. Not true, unless you're referring specifically to the UK branch. I'm active in the Israeli branch of Indymedia (www.indymedia.org.il) and a homogeneous image is the opposite of what we're trying to do - maybe it's because all other media in this country are so homogenous and centralistic, much more than most other democracies (certainly the UK). Indymedia Israel is a collection of voices, though they do all share some basic leftist-liberal axioms. We managed so far to avoid being fashionably underground - maybe it's simply because there aren't many people that identify with our causes, so we don't have to worry about them becoming trendy (though maybe the planned "rave against the occupation", a party-demonstration arranged by Israeli clubbers who till now did anything they could to escape any political involvement, is the first sign of it). > > This is the tradeoff between structure and diversity, I guess: in order > to shout loud enough to be heard, people have to band together - but in > banding together, much of the vitality and diversity which *leads* to > novel ideas is necessarily lost. I agree with you completely, and fear the consequences. Right now in Israel there isn't a single party or organisation which leads the so-called radical left - it's comprised of smaller organisations, each with its own viewpoint about the situation. It has been going quite well, as far as the diversity of opinions between and inside these groups go, but I fear that when the stench of coming elections will be in the air, people would try to form a unified front with one voice. Cheers giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:00:43 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Misbehaving Atoms (very long, and half a mile off topic and accelerating) On Tue, May 21, 2002 at 04:38:30PM +0200, giluz wrote: [indymedia/homogeneity] > Not true, unless you're referring specifically to the UK branch. I'm active > in the Israeli branch of Indymedia (www.indymedia.org.il) and a homogeneous > image is the opposite of what we're trying to do - maybe it's because all > other media in this country are so homogenous and centralistic, much more > than most other democracies (certainly the UK). Indymedia Israel is a > collection of voices, though they do all share some basic leftist-liberal > axioms. Therefore, although you're all mature enough to be able to disagree with each other, fundamentally your viewpoints are similar enough that *it will be possible* to identify a core set of shared axioms - so other media outlets will do this, and all of a sudden you're being treated as one homogeneous entity whether you like it or not. This, I think, is the problem with the indymedia _concept_, at least in the UK: it becomes an outlet for the radical/anarchist left, at least in the US and the UK, and it's very easy to lose sight of the differences in opinions in comparison to the overwhelming similarity - a bloc, rather than the intended clearing house. Politically, however, the UK media *is* pretty diverse (there's no way I'd characterise Britain as a police state or *anything* near, for the avoidance of doubt: Blair's a control freak, but that's a rather different phenomenon). I mistrust business far more than I mistrust government, anyway: a democratic government has a vested interest in keeping me happy so I'll vote for them next time round). Therefore, moderate leftist/left-liberal viewpoints (social democracy, traditional liberalism, etc) are well represented in both the tabloid and broadsheet press. (For the record, I'm a vague, woolly left-leaning liberal; centre-left to left both economically and socially - I vote LibDem in the UK.) Andrew - -- "Gertrude Stein says that's enough; But I know that that's not enough now." - - Idlewild, "Roseability" ('100 Broken Windows') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:22:34 +0200 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: [idealcopy] recent re-discoveries > -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: RLynn9@aol.com [mailto:RLynn9@aol.com] > Gesendet: Freitag, 12. April 2002 16:16 > An: Eardrumbuz@aol.com; idealcopy@smoe.org > Betreff: Re: [idealcopy] recent re-discoveries > > > In a message dated 4/11/02 9:15:21 PM Central Daylight Time, > Eardrumbuz@aol.com writes: > > << robert, you've got me wanting to dive into my old vinyl > that i've boxed > away. > must be some forgotten gems in there>>> > > i'm sure there are! go for it! i bet you'll have a great time.. > > ...i'll let you know what i find!>>>> > > please do..i love hearing about people's finds.. As often, a late reply from Bavaria ... I found a group called "The Dance" ... some early eighties NY white funk band - stiil sounds good. Chakk, Medium Medium and the Jazzateers. anyone heard of these? FrankfromBavaria ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:46:47 -0400 From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] ebay 874509065 someone is selling an unused french concert ticket for paris on 26th october , supported by blurt. looks nice ; so what year would that be then? thought blurt were around mainly during wire's 80's lay-off. p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 00:11:38 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] recent re-discoveries > I found a group called "The Dance" ... some early > eighties NY white funk band - stiil sounds good. > Chakk, Medium Medium and the Jazzateers. > > anyone heard of these? > > FrankfromBavaria i was a big chakk fan! i read a great nme article about them by amrik rae who then went on to manage them. on the strength of that i went out and bought their 1st 12" 'out of the flesh' which i thought was a phenomonal single. and though i liked their others, i don't think they ever bettered that. still can't believe that rae convinced a major label (mca i think) to sign them for loads of cash, because as much as i loved them, i never saw them as serious chart contenders. thought they waited too long before releasing an album though - as much as i liked it, i would love to have heard 40 ferocious mins worth of 'out of the fleshes' rather than the more polished/stilted sound they'd developed by then. you probably know that bassist mark brydon is half of moloko. keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 19:12:39 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] recent re-discoveries i have recently re-discovered the Chameleons!....Script of the Bridge in particular....i'll give an opinion on it after i listen a few more times.... RL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 02:31:07 +0100 From: JLAStevens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] recent re-discoveries on 22/5/02 12:12 am, RLynn9@aol.com at RLynn9@aol.com wrote: > i have recently re-discovered the Chameleons!....Script of the Bridge in > particular....i'll give an opinion on it after i listen a few more times.... > > RL Fantastic album - often imitated never bettered. Weird tunings, Manc depression and U2 anthems who could ask for more! - -- |J|e|z| ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #161 *******************************