From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #139 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, May 7 2002 Volume 05 : Number 139 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] What's a butcher cover? ["Andrew Lumbard" ] [idealcopy] Re: R n B; Sonic Youth (and Wire) [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: R n B; Sonic Youth (and Wire) [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Rightwing politician..YES...bbc news just broadcast this!!! ["David Heale" ] [idealcopy] ANYONE UP FOR ANOTHER SPANNER IN THE WORKS? ["David Heale" ] Re: [idealcopy] talk talk [Rain19c@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] talk talk Talking of [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] talk talk [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] talk talk [Miles Goosens ] Re: [idealcopy] (OT) Rightwing politician. [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] Virus Ship [giluz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:10:33 +0100 From: "Andrew Lumbard" Subject: [idealcopy] What's a butcher cover? Anybody know? Just going through a couple of boxes of '60's US lp's for a friend. Don't get too excited guys - it's the stuff your parents bought. But a butcher cover on The Beatles lp here could make a big difference. AndyL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 09:46:27 EDT From: Rain19c@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Go Ahead... ian b: >>>I'd hoped that they may have carried a review of Read & Burn this week, as I'd hoped The Wire might. well, the official release date to the public is may 13th, so says posteverything. since we are the diehards, we've all got a copy early. I do hope once may 13th does roll around, we do start to see some reviews... (which way) michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:06:00 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] What's a butcher cover? you wanna know what one is or what one's worth? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:37:02 EDT From: Rain19c@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Lock up your cash CN1 is back up on ebay again....complete with a word-for-word copying of the review of it from wireviews. also, anyone figure out the words to germ ship yet? the closest i could come to was : germ ship idiots/he's on board bitter/fatal attraction chosen? by far ~michael np talk talk - laughing stock ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 19:02:44 +0200 From: Bart Subject: [idealcopy] Rightwing politician Dutch rightwing politician Pim Fortuyn has just been shot dead. In Holland he is a quite controversial phenomena - from nothing to perhaps 30% of the votes. Not my politician at all, but this is fucking unbelievable! Bart http://www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:25:10 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Re: R n B; Sonic Youth (and Wire) >>From: "Keith Astbury" >>Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Torching the Old Tortures > >>I'm sure I entirely agree with that Tim. I wouldn't for one moment suggest >>that graham, bruce and robert have become session men, but R&B does sound >>very much like colin's baby to me. which is just fine by me... Is that because it's more pop? From that stand point I understand what you (and others) mean, but I have to say that while it sounds nothing like Dome, it doesn't sound much like solo Newman to me either. >> (This was the ATP where Mogwai decided to wank about like a sort of >> post-rock version of Yes, and the year that Kim Gordon decided top play a >> f**king trumpet rather than sing, and lead Sonic Youth doing their very >> own 'Jazz Oddessey', Spinal Tap style.....and no, we did not enjoy ' >>their >> new direction'!) > >i know it was probably shit in actuality, but that sonic youth bit above >does paint an interesting picture. so much so that part of me is thinking, >'wish i'd seen THAT'. I'll see you and raise you. :) While I'm sure the original poster is sincere in his dislike of the set, I feel fairly certain I'd have loved it. One thing Sonic Youth and Wire have in common (for me): they're most interesting when they throw away the script. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 20:54:01 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: R n B; Sonic Youth (and Wire) > >>I'm sure I entirely agree with that Tim. I wouldn't for one moment suggest > >>that graham, bruce and robert have become session men, but R&B does sound > >>very much like colin's baby to me. which is just fine by me... > > Is that because it's more pop? From that stand point I understand what you > (and others) mean, but I have to say that while it sounds nothing like > Dome, it doesn't sound much like solo Newman to me either. > i think i mentioned before that the gtr on one of the colin tracks on 'swim team#2' cd (which i got the same time as R&B) sort of pointed the way forward to the new wire, though i'd agree there's not a lot of say 'bastard' to it. it probably comes down to me preferring - overall at least - colins vocs. keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 20:58:58 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] talk talk > ~michael > np talk talk - laughing stock 'laughing stock' has never really done it for me. when i play it (and i haven't in a long time), it always seemed to just pass me by. suddenly it would have finished and i would feel as if i'd almost not heard it (the solo mark hollis album had a similar effect on me). whereas i would find 'the colour of spring' and 'spirit of eden' genuinely moving. keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 15:57:50 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: R n B; Sonic Youth (and Wire) In a message dated 5/6/02 2:48:53 PM Central Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: << i think i mentioned before that the gtr on one of the colin tracks on 'swim team#2' cd (which i got the same time as R&B) sort of pointed the way forward to the new wire, though i'd agree there's not a lot of say 'bastard' to it. it probably comes down to me preferring - overall at least - colins vocs. keith >> I have to say that i agree with Keith...I do not own Swim Team 2 yet but i have heard it twice and the Colin tracks did sort of point the way to Read and Burn...Personally i hated "Bastard" and thought it was a really lame stab at the current trends in "dance" music....I prefer Colin's vocals (even if twisted and mashed up!) and i have always been saddened by the cancellation of a compilation of Colin tracks from WMO (i believe it was to be titled Vox Pop?) maybe someday they will turn up elsewhere? We can only hope..... Robert Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 20:56:31 +0100 From: "David Heale" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rightwing politician..YES...bbc news just broadcast this!!! Hello bart i dont think we have mailed via "idealcopy" heard this on 8pm. news on the BBC...... SERIOUSLY whats going on in europe at the moment.....first LE pen gaining a foot hold now this chap.being murdered???? the BNP IS REARING ITS UGLY HEAD AGAIN OVER HERE... keep us informed from your neck of the woods. over and out DAVID in cornwall - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart" To: "wire-news" Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: [idealcopy] Rightwing politician > Dutch rightwing politician Pim Fortuyn has just been shot dead. > In Holland he is a quite controversial phenomena - from nothing to perhaps > 30% of the votes. Not my politician at all, but this is fucking > unbelievable! > > Bart > http://www.bartvandamme.com > bartvandamme@home.nl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 16:03:05 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] talk talk In a message dated 5/6/02 2:53:33 PM Central Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: << > ~michael > np talk talk - laughing stock 'laughing stock' has never really done it for me. when i play it (and i haven't in a long time), it always seemed to just pass me by. suddenly it would have finished and i would feel as if i'd almost not heard it (the solo mark hollis album had a similar effect on me). whereas i would find 'the colour of spring' and 'spirit of eden' genuinely moving. keith >> hmmmm..now i have to disagree with Keith!..I think Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock sound almost identical !..and Colour of Spring sounds like a bridge from the old to the new..actually Spirit and Laughing sound like a trilogy along with the Hollis solo lp!...now playing: Siouxsie and the Banshees "The Rapture" (i don't know why critics pan this album!..there is some really nice stuff on here!) Robert Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 21:26:48 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] talk talk > > np talk talk - laughing stock > > 'laughing stock' has never really done it for me. when i play it (and i > haven't in a long time), it always seemed to just pass me by. suddenly it > would have finished and i would feel as if i'd almost not heard it (the solo > mark hollis album had a similar effect on me). whereas i would find 'the > colour of spring' and 'spirit of eden' genuinely moving. > keith >> > robert said > hmmmm..now i have to disagree with Keith!.. i knew this agreeing business couldn't last ; ) >I think Spirit of Eden and > Laughing Stock sound almost identical !..and Colour of Spring sounds like a > bridge from the old to the new..actually Spirit and Laughing sound like a > trilogy along with the Hollis solo lp!... Yeah you're right about 'C. of S' being a bridge. And 'S.of E.' and 'L.S.' are similar - i just think that 'eden' has better 'songs', more warmth, more feeling. FWIW 'eden' is one of my all-time fave albums. > now playing: Siouxsie and the > Banshees "The Rapture" (i don't know why critics pan this album!..there is > some really nice stuff on here!) they panned it cos it was siouxsie & the banshees and it was considered the thing to do. i agree with you though robert. my, isn't the IC world a lovely place today! keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 21:17:28 +0100 From: "David Heale" Subject: [idealcopy] ANYONE UP FOR ANOTHER SPANNER IN THE WORKS? Hello Keith The likes of John Cage and Sun Ra were REALLY out-there and everything else ;what ever genre - follows in their shadow. DAVID ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 21:32:28 +0100 From: "Ian B" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (Off Topic) Rightwing politician..YES...bbc news just broadcast this!!! Is this the wealthy shaven headed gay bloke who wanted to freeze immigration to allow a period of 'assimilation'? Is it known yet if his murder is political? - ----- Original Message ----- From: David Heale > Hello bart > i dont think we have mailed via "idealcopy" > heard this on 8pm. news on the BBC...... > SERIOUSLY whats going on in europe at the moment.....first LE pen gaining a > foot hold now this chap.being murdered???? > the BNP IS REARING ITS UGLY HEAD AGAIN OVER HERE... > keep us informed from your neck of the woods. > over and out > DAVID in cornwall > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bart" > > Dutch rightwing politician Pim Fortuyn has just been shot dead. > > In Holland he is a quite controversial phenomena - from nothing to perhaps > > 30% of the votes. Not my politician at all, but this is fucking > > unbelievable! > > > > Bart > > http://www.bartvandamme.com > > bartvandamme@home.nl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 17:53:06 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] talk talk In a message dated 5/6/02 3:21:13 PM Central Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > > now playing: Siouxsie and the > > Banshees "The Rapture" (i don't know why critics pan this album!..there > is > > some really nice stuff on here!) > > they panned it cos it was siouxsie & the banshees and it was considered the > thing to do. i agree with you though robert. my, isn't the IC world a > lovely > place today! > > keith > Yes IC is quite a lovely place today...Although, maybe "Bill" is lurking about somewhere..It's just probably taking a long time for him to pounce on us because he has to write a 10 page disertation on why Siouxsie and Talk Talk are 80's drivel and how enjoying their particular music is impedeing the progress of our society as a whole...sheesh.. RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 17:15:24 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: [idealcopy] Virus Ship Are you infected? Every day for the past two weeks, like clockwork, I've been sent the Klez virus, to three addresses (idealcopy, idealcopy-digest, and owner-idealcopy-digest) that are associated with this list. smoe.org automatically doesn't process the messages to the first two addresses (attachments are a no-no, and the fake sender isn't a subscriber), but the third goes to my own machine. Norton Anti-Virus catches it, of course, and I'd never click on an e-mail attachment without virus scanning it anyway, but this is pretty annoying. And if it's happening to me, it's also likely happening to other correspondents of the infected person or persons. My understanding of the way the Klez virus works is that it picks up "From" addresses from an infected machine, (see ), so my guess is that a current or former subscriber is unwittingly infected, since only a list member would be getting mail from all these addresses. Anyway, I recommend that idealcopyists using a PC and Windows (and the infected person is more than likely also running Internet Explorer, Outlook, and/or Outlook Express) perform an antivirus scan of their computers, for the safety & security of their own computers. Make sure you have downloaded the latest virus definitions from the maker of your antivirus software before you do the scan. After the scan, you'll also want to make sure that you've patched your versions of IE, Outlook, and Outlook Express, as Microsoft has a patch that corrects the security flaw that Klez exploits. Remember that you probably aren't infected, and you cannot be infected by mail from this list. If something saying it is from "idealcopy@smoe.org," "idealcopy-digest@smoe.org," "owner-idealcopy," or "owner-idealcopy-digest" appears with an attachment, it is NOT from me or the list, and you should not click the attachment! public service announcement sans guitar, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 18:52:59 EDT From: Rain19c@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] talk talk keith: >>>Yeah you're right about 'C. of S' being a bridge. And 'S.of E.' and 'L.S.' are similar - i just think that 'eden' has better 'songs', more warmth, more feeling. FWIW 'eden' is one of my all-time fave albums. yes, I agree - eden is a more "warm" record. "laughing stock" is their most dense and "difficult" record...it does require many listens and even then it doesn't equal "eden" in the long run. I still think "ascension day", "after the flood" and "runeii" are all excellent though. The thing about "laughing stock" is it is a very stark, live-ish, warts-and-all album as compared to eden. It's often not pretty, and those guitar have a metallic, jagged edged feel to them that seems to grate...I guess you can't blame TT for trying something different - they weren't going to make eden again. ~michael np wire - "crazy about love" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 16:03:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] talk talk Talking of Does anyone have any live talk talk?Ari - --- Keith Astbury wrote: > > > np talk talk - laughing stock > > > > 'laughing stock' has never really done it for me. > when i play it (and i > > haven't in a long time), it always seemed to just > pass me by. suddenly it > > would have finished and i would feel as if i'd > almost not heard it (the > solo > > mark hollis album had a similar effect on me). > whereas i would find 'the > > colour of spring' and 'spirit of eden' genuinely > moving. > > keith >> > > > robert said > > hmmmm..now i have to disagree with Keith!.. > > i knew this agreeing business couldn't last ; ) > > >I think Spirit of Eden and > > Laughing Stock sound almost identical !..and > Colour of Spring sounds like > a > > bridge from the old to the new..actually Spirit > and Laughing sound like a > > trilogy along with the Hollis solo lp!... > > Yeah you're right about 'C. of S' being a bridge. > And 'S.of E.' and 'L.S.' > are similar - i just think that 'eden' has better > 'songs', more warmth, more > feeling. FWIW 'eden' is one of my all-time fave > albums. > > > now playing: Siouxsie and the > > Banshees "The Rapture" (i don't know why critics > pan this album!..there is > > some really nice stuff on here!) > > they panned it cos it was siouxsie & the banshees > and it was considered the > thing to do. i agree with you though robert. my, > isn't the IC world a lovely > place today! > > keith ===== everything in moderation is good for you,including excess. Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 19:42:50 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] talk talk In a message dated 5/6/02 3:53:33 PM, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: >> ~michael >> np talk talk - laughing stock > >'laughing stock' has never really done it for me. when i play it (and i >haven't in a long time), it always seemed to just pass me by. suddenly >it >would have finished and i would feel as if i'd almost not heard it (the >solo >mark hollis album had a similar effect on me). whereas i would find 'the >colour of spring' and 'spirit of eden' genuinely moving. laughing stock is the only one of the three that i own. i like it a lot, but it does give off too much of a jazz vibe (in the drums mostly). i do like a lot of jazz too, but i think the drums on this album could've gone in another direction. just my 2 cents. i think i'll try to pick up eden, and perhaps spring as well sometime down the road. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 22:33:33 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] talk talk At 05:53 PM 5/6/2002 -0400, RLynn9@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 5/6/02 3:21:13 PM Central Daylight Time, >keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > > >> > now playing: Siouxsie and the >> > Banshees "The Rapture" (i don't know why critics pan this album!..there >> is >> > some really nice stuff on here!) >> >> they panned it cos it was siouxsie & the banshees and it was considered the >> thing to do. i agree with you though robert. my, isn't the IC world a >> lovely >> place today! >> >> keith >> > >Yes IC is quite a lovely place today...Although, maybe "Bill" is lurking >about somewhere..It's just probably taking a long time for him to pounce on >us because he has to write a 10 page disertation on why Siouxsie and Talk >Talk are 80's drivel and how enjoying their particular music is impedeing the >progress of our society as a whole...sheesh.. 1) The reason, or one of the reasons at any rate, that so many people missed Graeme is that the discussions on idealcopy often lack real weight. When someone says Siouxsie's THE RAPTURE has really nice stuff, or lists the "crap '80s singles" they spun this past weekend, it'd be nice if more often there was an *explanation* of what the listmember finds compelling (or not compelling) about this stuff, and why IC'ers might find it of interest (or not). Someone had a similar complaint back when IC was even more swamped with "what are you listening to?" playlists that were nothing more than bare lists, and I concur. Not to cite Keith or Robert or anyone in particular for this sin. As for any fell missile from Mr. Hick -- well, Graeme may rail against whatever you're listening to (though one must note that he usually displays a keen knowledge of the things he's dismissing!), but he's usually got a fistful of reasons, and energy and purpose galore. I saved his exegesis of the Fall's "Wings," and while I may quibble about certain interpretive particulars or whether the song is "subversive," it's a freaking brilliant piece of writing, and it made the list worth reading. 2) Hey, those "10 page dissertations" bounce to me first (anything over 7000 characters goes to me for approval), so there might be a delay in the list seeing 'em until I have time to get to it! Though for the past few months, I don't think I've been away from minding the bounces for more than a day at a time... later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 07:34:52 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT) Rightwing politician. Yeeah, that's the one. Police have arrested a bloke 30's bloke [with a baseballcap - now THERE's a clue], but nothing known about his intentions. Fortuyn used to be a sociology professor at the university in Groningen [where I live]. Friend of mine attended his classes for a few years. Very weird stuff... the whole country is on its head. > Is this the wealthy shaven headed gay bloke who wanted to freeze immigration > to allow a period of 'assimilation'? > Is it known yet if his murder is political? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 07:17:50 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] Top Ten Wire Albums. And the winner is... So after hours of struggling with basic arithmetic, here are the results of the Ideal Copy Top 10 Wire and associated artists albums. 1. 154 2. CHAIRS MISSING 3. A BELL IS A CUP. 4. IDEAL COPY 5. PINK FLAG 6. IT'S BEGINNING TO & BACK AGAIN 7. FIRST LETTER 8. A-Z 9. DOME 1 10.NOT TO 11.DOCUMENT & EYEWITNESS 12.DOME 2 13.DRILL 14.IT'S ALL IN THE BROCHURE 15.COATINGS 16.= MANSCAPE 16.=SNAKEDRILL 18.=THIS WAY TO THE SHIVERING MAN 18.=BEHIND THE CURTAIN 20.COMMERCIAL SUICIDE As for the stats.. Although '154' won quite comfortably (31 pts separated first and second place), 'Chairs Missing' featured in more peoples top tens than any other album. In fact, it was looking like it was going to manage a clean sweep until - - late in the day - one subscriber inexplicably left it out. (For the benefit of all 'Chairs Missing' fans I will name the guilty party who spoilt that 100% record.Craig at Wireviews come on down!) Only one point separated 'Dome 1' and 'Not To'. I mention this because 'Dome 1' beat 'Not To' due to the official adjudicators (i.e. me!) decision to count Ian B's unofficial 9th and 10th choices rather than just his top eight plus two. The difference between 'A Bell is a Cup' and 'Ideal Copy' was pretty tight too. An unbelievable 46 albums received a vote in all. That's a lot of music. Thanks to everyone who voted. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 07:20:30 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ANYONE UP FOR ANOTHER SPANNER IN THE WORKS? > Hello Keith > The likes of John Cage and Sun Ra were REALLY out-there and everything else > ;what ever genre - follows in their shadow. > > DAVID oh...i don't feel suitably qualified to say, though i do know of a number of other artists who should have recorded moments of silence. post-cream clapton? keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 07:26:17 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] first ever gig Here's one for you y'all. WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST EVER GIG? And honest answers please, not the hip Pistols at the 100 Club reply (unless of course, you really were that fortunate!) Anyway, here's mine. Although I'd seen a number of M.O.R. pop acts as a child due to my mum and dad loving 'a good show' (the Seekers and the Bachelors in the 60's, Roger Whittaker and New World in the early 70's!!!), the first PROPER gig I went to was Uriah Heep at the Manchester Free Trade Hall on their 1974 'Wonderworld' tour. I wasn't a Uriah Heep fan at all - in fact I don't think I'd actually ever heard them - but there was a school trip to see them (we were extremely fortunate that our R.E. teacher Mr Owen - I'll mention his name cos he deserves it - organised a number of trips to pop concerts). To be honest, I'd wanted to go and see Roxy Music, but that trip was cancelled due to a lack of interest. (I still can't believe that). As I was just desperate to go to a gig - - any gig - and couldn't wait until the Sparks trip a few weeks later on bonfire night (which would have been an altogether hipper first gig don't you think???), I went to see five long haired heavy rock merchants play lots of dead long songs (with titles like 'Gypsy' and 'July Morning'!) that I'd never heard before, supported by a pre-'Comes Alive' Peter Frampton. Now I'd like to say that I thought they were both shit, but I can't. I loved everything about it - the atmosphere, the volume, Uriah Heep's rock'n'roll medley and, for god's sake, Frampton's cover of 'Jumpin Jack Flash'. I even loved the crowds mindless 'Uriah Uriah Uriah' chant, which even then struck me as.well.mindless! As for the Sparks gig a few weeks later - well what do you think? Russell Mael pirouetting across the stage with a sparkler in his hand. 'This Town Ain't Big Enough for the Both of Us'. Brother Ron's moustache and fixed stare. 'Never Turn Your Back on Mother Earth'. A drummer with the rather splendid name 'Dinky Diamond'. They were great. Over to you??? Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 11:18:48 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Virus Ship on 07/05/02 00:15, Miles Goosens at outdoorminer@mindspring.com wrote: > Anyway, I recommend that idealcopyists using a PC and Windows (and the > infected person is more than likely also running Internet Explorer, > Outlook, and/or Outlook Express) perform an antivirus scan of their > computers, for the safety & security of their own computers. Simple solution: Buy a Macinstosh. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #139 *******************************