From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #21 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, January 21 2002 Volume 05 : Number 021 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad ["Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad tim what are you thinking of ? smiths good, solo smiths bad, is just too easy, too lazy...and wrong. i was fortunate to see the smiths really early on at bangor university - just before 'this charming man' was released. it was a small venue - about 60-80 people and no raised stage - and i stood right at the front and watched this band almost as if they were in my front room. there was no 'moshing', no planned stage invasions that were to become part of the smiths folklore - just 3 fairly ordinary looking blokes and a gladioli swinging singer, performing these great songs. things then happened quickly. a matter of weeks later they had their own OGWT concert special on BBC2 - complete with stage invasion - and they were big. the smiths undoubtedly touched a lot of peoples lives, but the records didn't always live up to expectations. 'the smiths' debut LP for example was disappointing - we already knew how great the songs were but it sounded flat somehow. not bad, just not what it could/should have been. i love 'the queen is dead' LP - particularly the beautiful 'i know it's over' - but no album with 'cemetry gates' (my least fave smiths track alongside the awful 'paint a vulgar picture') or 'frankly mr shankly' could ever be described as perfect. i always rated 'meat is murder' higher myself. but anyway, back to the solo stuff - i thought 'viva hate' was interesting as opposed to great (but wash your ears out tim, 'everyday is like sunday' is truly fab) but then the singles seemed to get progressively weaker, although when I hear the likes of 'interesting drug' nowadays - like 'shakespeares sister' from the smiths days - it's better than it sounded at the time. the 'kill uncle' LP though was dross and at that point it seemed like moz's career was over. how wrong can you be - the glam-like 'your arsenal' was great, and it's follow-up 'vauxhall & i' was even better. these albums were never going to have the same effect on people in the uk as much as the smiths stuff because we were all older and, ahem, wiser, but i'll put my neck on the line here and say i reckon these two are better (and more consistent) than any smiths albums. and then once again, he blew it. there appears to be some sort of flaw in morrisseys character that does this. 'southpaw grammer' was again 'interesting' but it was not the album his 'career' needed at that time'. and his last album 'maladjusted' was again disappointing, especially after the initial single, the under-rated 'alma matters', promised so much. since then (1997) nothing other than a few live dates and his lost appeal against the judges 'truculent and unreliable' comments. but i stand by the majority of his solo career and think in time people will recognise how great some of it has been. as for the other smiths - well rourke and joyce were a great rhythm section, but isn't it a little unfair to expect them to have great solo careers. do we expect one from robert gotobed (though i'd be interested in hearing it...) (actually mike joyce didn't do too badly post-smiths - he played with HRH julian h. cope and the buzzcocks and was awarded a million quid by the judge!). and johnny marr has played on some great records - with the psb's and stex and on the 1st electronic LP (and even the other two electronic albums have their moments). so - and i know this is contentious on a wire page - i reckon the solo smiths output more than stands comparison with the solo wire's, cos like the smiths, wire as a collective unit, are better than their individual parts. i might be missing out here, but as someone who generally preferred colin newmans pop sensibility - he said aside - i pretty much gave up on the lewis/gilbert side after one dome album (will you speak this word). i liked the percussiveness of several tracks, but i haven't played it in a long time and can't imagine that it's dated too well. so whilst i think wire win against the smiths, i'd have to say the solo smiths beat the solo wire pretty comfortably. i expect the hate mail will flow quickly so it seems only appropriate that i should quote morrissey (smiths period if that helps) at this point. 'it takes guts to be gentle and kind'. so...don't be too rough with me! keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:18:21 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Solo Wire=good..solo Smiths=bad! agree with tim's comments almost entirely. though i did think viva hate had some merits , its the stuff after that that really stinks ("kill uncle" must be one of the worst cd's i've ever bought. anyone wanna buy a copy?) . and who'd have thought johnny's first attempt at a band (the healers - great name) would stiff so utterly. are they still going? p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:03:57 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad In a message dated 1/20/02 6:17:00 AM Central Standard Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > so whilst i think wire win against the smiths, i'd have to say the solo > smiths > beat the solo wire pretty comfortably. > blasphemy. robert ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:11:42 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad << i was fortunate to see the smiths really early on at bangor university - just before 'this charming man' was released.<< Likewise I saw them in early 83, supporting the Fall at the Electric Ballroom. One of the most impressive unheard-of support bands I've ever seen. Definitely had star quality... >> just 3 fairly ordinary looking blokes and a gladioli swinging singer, performing these great songs.<< Johnny Marr in Ray-bans and quiff with a big semio-acoustic was hardly "ordinary looking"!! >> 'the smiths' debut LP for example was disappointing - we already knew how great the songs were but it sounded flat somehow. not bad, just not what it could/should have been.<< I'd agree with that, though This Charming Man sounded, and still sounds, fantastic. >> i love 'the queen is dead' LP - particularly the beautiful 'i know it's over' << A brilliant, faultless album. But you can't say that aboput either of its two predecessors... >>- but no album with 'cemetry gates' (my least fave smiths track alongside the awful 'paint a vulgar picture') or 'frankly mr shankly' could ever be described as perfect.<< Oh dear. Cemetry Gates and Frankly... just sit perfectly on that album. >> i always rated 'meat is murder' higher myself.<< MIM has its moments for sure (especially "Well I wonder") but generally it's just too sincere. TQID is a confident band at the top of its game... and so much better. >> but anyway, back to the solo stuff - i thought 'viva hate' was interesting as opposed to great (but wash your ears out tim, 'everyday is like sunday' is truly fab)<< Agreed. The two singles are the stand-outs. VH is trying too hard to be a Smiths album - even down to the cover. >> but then the singles seemed to get progressively weaker,<< Er...disagree. Last of the famous international playboys is the single best post-Smiths Morrissey track. (the band is basically the Craig Gannon Smiths minus Johnny Marr) >> although when I hear the likes of 'interesting drug' nowadays - like 'shakespeares sister' from the smiths days - it's better than it sounded at the time. << By comparison to modern "indie" even the worst Smiths singles (and Shakespeares Sister is the worst Smiths single) sound absolutely marvellous. >>the 'kill uncle' LP though was dross and at that point it seemed like moz's career was over. how wrong can you be - the glam-like 'your arsenal' was great, and it's follow-up 'vauxhall & i' was even better. these albums were never going to have the same effect on people in the uk as much as the smiths stuff because we were all older and, ahem, wiser, but i'll put my neck on the line here and say i reckon these two are better (and more consistent) than any smiths albums.<< Well not quite. Both good albums though, and certainly just as likely to get played chez Bursa these days as the forst two Smiths albums. But TQID is still the masterpiece. Possibly the third best album made by a Manchester band ;-) Your point about the effect is correct though. Following the impact of the Smiths (probably the definitive mid-80s band) would have been impossible. And after a false start I think Moz made three really good albums in the 1990s. >> and then once again, he blew it. there appears to be some sort of flaw in morrisseys character that does this. 'southpaw grammer' was again 'interesting' but it was not the album his 'career' needed at that time'. << What his career needed at the time was not to be poncing around draped in a union jack in front of 2,000 skinheads at Madness' Finsbury Park shindig. An unfortunate career move from which he's never recovered. Southpaw Grammar is actually rather good, with its 10-minute lead off track reminiscent of the Queen is Dead. >>and his last album 'maladjusted' was again disappointing, especially after the initial single, the under-rated 'alma matters', promised so much.<< Not a good record, and notable for containing Morrissey's worst song, Roy's Keen. Quit an achievement considering Kill Uncle. >> since then (1997) nothing other than a few live dates and his lost appeal against the judges 'truculent and unreliable' comments. but i stand by the majority of his solo career and think in time people will recognise how great some of it has been.<< From here on anything half decent would be a bonus. A bit like New Order's comeback. Expected nothing - actually wasn't bad. >> as for the other smiths - well rourke and joyce were a great rhythm section, but isn't it a little unfair to expect them to have great solo careers. do we expect one from robert gotobed (though i'd be interested in hearing it...) (actually mike joyce didn't do too badly post-smiths - he played with HRH julian h. cope and the buzzcocks and was awarded a million quid by the judge!). << Cope speaks highly of him in his book, noting his reggae-style toasting over Smiths songs eg "Girlfriend in a coma, I can't stand the aroma!" >>and johnny marr has played on some great records - with the psb's and stex and on the 1st electronic LP (and even the other two electronic albums have their moments).<<, Afraid JM is a wasted talent. Like most "indie guitar heroes" the solo stuff doesn't cut the mustard (see also Bernard Butler, John Squire) >> so - and i know this is contentious on a wire page - i reckon the solo smiths output more than stands comparison with the solo wire's, << Oh, come on. Morrisey vs Colin might be a valid comparison, though Colin has produced a far more varied body of work over a much longer period. But you can't compare the paltry output of the other members of the Smiths with the sheer volume of quality Wire solo projects. cos like the smiths, wire as a collective unit, are better than their individual parts.<< If you'd replaced the Smiths' rhythm section it would have made very little difference. >> i might be missing out here, but as someone who generally preferred colin newmans pop sensibility - he said aside - i pretty much gave up on the lewis/gilbert side after one dome album (will you speak this word). i liked the percussiveness of several tracks, but i haven't played it in a long time and can't imagine that it's dated too well.<< You're missing out. D4 sounds pretty good too, though D1 & 2 are utterly timeless. >> so whilst i think wire win against the smiths, i'd have to say the solo smiths beat the solo wire pretty comfortably.<< I think you'l find yourself in a minority of one!! >> i expect the hate mail will flow quickly so it seems only appropriate that i should quote morrissey (smiths period if that helps) at this point. 'it takes guts to be gentle and kind'. so...don't be too rough with me! >> Nah. We'll come round and slap you on the patio ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:37:24 +0000 From: Simon Bradley Subject: [idealcopy] Mispressed CD available - repost Chums, I have to leave the list - I'm already subscribed to too many lists to remain with you all - so I'm reposting my offer (below) from last week. The disc will be going in the bin unless one of you has a use for it. Thanks, Simon > I have just acquired a second-hand copy of The Ideal Copy > (STUMM42) with the sleeve showing the 8 additional tracks, and > what must be the original jewel case housing a sticker stating > "Contains Eight Extra Tracks". The disc itself also looks perfect > - mainly black with simple sliver lettering. > > However, the disc itself actually contains 18 mixed tracks from > around 1987 from such artists as Mel & KIm, Boy George, Hot > Chocolate and others......! CDDB suggests the title is Magic > Musik by Various Artists, and the serial number on the internal > ring of the CD is 258-389-225 Mastered by Nimbus. > > Now (having shared all that with you !) would anyone be > interested in this item ? I don't want cash for it (maybe a > couple of CDR bootlegs would be nice ;-) . I simply have no need > for it, but being a fan of the band, I would prefer to see it go > to a keener fan/completist. > > Please Email me privately if interested. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:45:59 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad Subject: Re: [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad mark, enjoyed your response... just a few comments > Johnny Marr in Ray-bans and quiff with a big semio-acoustic was hardly > "ordinary looking"!! he was round here ! (seriously though, marr looked fairly cool, but in comparison with steven patrick standing there in a big baggy shirt, swinging those flowers round, he did look pretty normal) >This Charming Man sounded, and still sounds, fantastic. no arguments here. an alltime great with one of morrisseys best ever vocal performances... > Oh dear. Cemetry Gates and Frankly... just sit perfectly on that album. i don't hate 'frankly' it's just a bit 'when i'm 64', but 'cemetry gates' is poor. > >> but then the singles seemed to get progressively weaker,<< > > Er...disagree. Last of the famous international playboys is the single best > post-Smiths Morrissey track. (the band is basically the Craig Gannon Smiths > minus Johnny Marr) i was generalising here. you're right. 'playboys' (who were bolan, bowie and devoto supposedly...) is certainly the best post-smiths morrissey single... >TQID is still the masterpiece. Possibly the third best album made by a Manchester > band ;-) what's the others ??? > What his career needed at the time was not to be poncing around draped in a > union jack in front of 2,000 skinheads at Madness' Finsbury Park shindig. An > unfortunate career move from which he's never recovered. i agree, though it wasn't just the gig - his subsequent stubborn silence didn't help. >Southpaw Grammar is actually rather good, with its 10-minute lead off track reminiscent of the > Queen is Dead. yeah, i like it too. it was just a strange album to release at that point. > Morrissey's worst song, Roy's Keen. nah. he's done worse than that! > From here on anything half decent would be a bonus. A bit like New Order's > comeback. Expected nothing - actually wasn't bad. 'get ready' is great. a real pleasant surprise... (hearing hookie's bass line on 'crystal' for the first time was like being re-united with an old friend. brought a smile to my face) > Afraid JM is a wasted talent. Like most "indie guitar heroes" the solo stuff > doesn't cut the mustard (see also Bernard Butler, John Squire) yeah that was my view for a long time - guesting with bryan ferry here, the pretenders there - until i read an interview with him and realised what a taunting prospect it must have been for him - still a young man - to try and follow the smiths. and then you think about what's he done - and don't forget that great guitar playing on the the's 'beyond love' - and...well maybe it hasn't been *such* a waste. > you can't compare the paltry output of the other members of the Smiths with the > sheer volume of quality Wire solo projects. it was morrissey and marrs output i was comparing newman, lewis and gilbert. i wouldn't for one moment suggest that rourke and joyces output compared in volume or quality. i know i like a good argument but that'd be taking things too far... > If you'd replaced the Smiths' rhythm section it would have made very little > difference. disagree. whilst morrissey and marr were obviously the major talents in the group, rourkes bass lines in particular were really distinctive (listen to 'this charming man' again for proof) > >> so whilst i think wire win against the smiths, i'd have to say the solo > smiths beat the solo wire pretty comfortably.<< > > I think you'l find yourself in a minority of one!! well that's to be expected on a wire page isn't it, but i didn't start the 'solo wire = good, solo smiths = bad' business. wire page or not ('blasphemy' or not!), i just didn't agree with it. and hey, if i didn't love wire i wouldn't be here now... it's just that as much as i love colins early solo stuff, I just think they're better together. >We'll come round and slap you on the patio ;-) got to go - there's a knock on the door.... keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:01:26 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad >>TQID is still the masterpiece. Possibly the third best album made by a >Manchester >> band ;-) > >what's the others ??? > dunno what mark had in mind, but not being a smiths fan (though, yes, i own afaik everything they ever did; same with morrissey solo, of which i'm also by no means a fan, though everyday is like sunday has to be one of my favorite singles ever), i've noted before that i think they'd do well to make the list of top 5 manchester bands, surely headed by joy division, the fall, buzzcocks, magazine ... haven't listened to the queen is dead in eons, but if it outranks unknown pleasures, unknown pleasures, witch trials, grotesque, this nation's saving grace, wonderful & frightening world, about 5 other great fall albums, another music in a different kitchen, secondhand daylight, real life or correct use of soap, i've been denying myself one helluva treat. dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:21:50 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad In a message dated 20/01/2002 15:04:55 GMT Standard Time, RLynn9@aol.com writes: > > so whilst i think wire win against the smiths, i'd have to say the solo > > smiths > > beat the solo wire pretty comfortably I just had to listen to Dome 1 again to think about those comments and.... I can't agree.I was almost tongue tied if you get my meaning. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:43:14 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad Well, they're in your list ;-) I'd rank it behind Unknown pleasures and Secondhand daylight, which are just about perfect albums, but ahead of any Buzzcocks or Fall album. It'd probably nick into my top 10 albums of all time. Trouble with the Fall is selecting one album out of such a vast canon - is there a perfect Fall album?... not sure there is. Even Hex Enduction Hour would be better off without ..and this day. Personally I'm amazed that the Smiths' appeal transferred at all to America. It's hard to think of a more English band, and also one so far removed from the prevailing '80s musical environment . Mark << dunno what mark had in mind, but not being a smiths fan (though, yes, i own afaik everything they ever did; same with morrissey solo, of which i'm also by no means a fan, though everyday is like sunday has to be one of my favorite singles ever), i've noted before that i think they'd do well to make the list of top 5 manchester bands, surely headed by joy division, the fall, buzzcocks, magazine ... haven't listened to the queen is dead in eons, but if it outranks unknown pleasures, unknown pleasures, witch trials, grotesque, this nation's saving grace, wonderful & frightening world, about 5 other great fall albums, another music in a different kitchen, secondhand daylight, real life or correct use of soap, i've been denying myself one helluva treat. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:59:11 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] solo smiths = bad In a message dated 20/01/02 21:44:28 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > Personally I'm amazed that the Smiths' appeal transferred at all to America. > It's hard to think of a more English band, and also one so far removed from > the prevailing '80s musical environment . > > ///// i always guessed it was the diammetric opposite of people in boring english towns wishing they were in a road movie driving across california. so you get teenagers in arizona wishing they were being rained on in hulme. which maybe seems a good idea if you live in arizona. against stiff competition , surely "asian rut" is morrissey's nadir? personal opinion of the solo smiths ; one half decent lp (VH) , couple of ok tracks after that (november spawned? glamorous glue?) and sod all else. marr's solo collaborations seem to have painfully little of his own inspiration or ideas. moz seems to be just spiralling downwards into self-parody. can't see any real comparison to the wire solo work at all , where i think even people who weren't keen could see a lot of artistic progression and ideas. and i did like the smiths , honest. p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:41:45 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] top manchester LP's my top manchester albums (not in order except for 1st place) - 'closer' 'unknown pleasures' 'real life' '2nd hand daylight' 'shiftwork' (pleased to see one of adam & joe pick that as one his top 5 fall LP's in this months Q magazine - i'll let you know the others if anyones interested) 'meat is murder' 'the queen is dead' (don't count the solo moz one's - don't seem manchester enough) 'another music' 'lowlife' and just to be topical - 'get ready' cos it's the one i've listened to most lately (and i like it a lot). keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:44:58 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] morrissey's nadir ? paul said << surely "asian rut" is morrissey's nadir? yep. i think you could be right there. we all seem to agree on one thing though - 'kill uncle' is pretty poor. yet i'd say the worst album by someone i like is 'growing up in public' by lou reed. anyone got any other nominations for the worst album by someone good award ? keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:59:36 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] morrissey's nadir ? A dismal effort, for sure, but I'm sticking with Roy's Keen. Utter toss. Mark << << surely "asian rut" is morrissey's nadir? yep. i think you could be right there. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:01:43 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] morrissey's nadir ? that killing joke one that i don't even own (outside the gates, or something like that) is supposed to be quite horrid, but i've never bothered to hear it. the cure's wild mood swings is ... uh ... different. dan >i'd say the worst album by someone i like is 'growing up in public' by lou >reed. anyone got any other nominations for the worst album by someone good >award ? > >keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:08:58 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] morrissey's nadir ? In a message dated 1/20/02 5:43:13 PM, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: << anyone got any other nominations for the worst album by someone good award ? >> i thought the psych furs midnight to midnight was such a lame attempt at commercial success that i missed out on the two fantastic albums that followed until i later rediscovered what i had missed. the one song i heard from the chameleons recent comeback album was pretty poor, but i can't comment on the whole album. it's hard to fault such a prolific artist, but neil young's diversion as harold melvin and the blue notes was, ur um...well i'm glad he didn't go the buster poindexter route and make a career out of it. lastly, from what i've read recently i may have missed some good 90's output from cabaret voltaire. i didn't buy much after groovy laidback and nasty. supposedly there were some cool releases, more experimental electronics somewhat akin to their early works in attitude (more than performance). can anyone recommend which are the best ones from the 90's? - -another the paul ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #21 ******************************