From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #384 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, December 19 2001 Volume 04 : Number 384 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... [Miles Goosens ] Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] OT: Mission of Burma ["Syarzhuk Kazachenka" ] [idealcopy] Re: Bruce/Eno Cards [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] 2001 Top Ten [eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang)] [idealcopy] Alright...'ere It Is....AGAIN! [Tim ] Re: [idealcopy] Alright...'ere It Is....AGAIN! [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Alright...'ere It Is....AGAIN! [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:11:04 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... Dan Bailey, then Paul Pietromonaco: >> i don't think my response to this thread ever showed up (probably >something >> to do with me having to post from my e-mail website at work, since i >wasn't >> on-line at home yet), > >That's okay - there's always time to revisit an old topic...(^_^) The only non-subscriber "bounces" from the list I've seen recently have been spam, so I don't know what happened to Dan's original, possibly failed submission. If the spam was about Frank Black, I'd be tempted to pass it on to the list anyway! :-) >>but to recap -- i think his first solo lp was pretty >> good, while his 2nd (teenager of the year) i regard as an >underappreciated >> gem, one of the best of the '90s. > >For me, with the exception of Los Angeles, the first LP was a massive >disappointment. Sounded like he was trying to channel the spirit of David >Bowie or something. What little bits I heard from the next few albums >convinced me that I was better off looking elsewhere. I found the Breeders >axis to be more in line with my tastes. (Although, I'll probably pick up >Teenager of the Year at some point.) I've got to agree with Dan on this one: FRANK BLACK was rippingly good, and TEENAGER OF THE YEAR sublime. I think I had TEENAGER in the car rotation for over two years. Over twenty hooky songs that don't outlive their welcome (PINK FLAG, anyone?), insane variety of subjects and musical approaches, ahhhhhh. The only real disappointment (IMO of course) in the FB solo catalog was the next album, the uninspired THE CULT OF RAY. Having said that, I will admit that I'm not as thrilled by the FB & the Catholics albums as a lot of other people were -- there's some great songs on those albums, but the first ones miss the instrumental textures of Eric Drew Feldman, and somehow his return on DOG IN THE SAND doesn't really change the equation much. There's a samey-ness of sound on the Catholics records; maybe it has to do with what Paul says about the limitations of the "live to two-track" approach, though there's no reason that properly *arranged* that you couldn't make a rich, varied sound using the same production method. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:39:29 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... > There's a > samey-ness of sound on the Catholics records; maybe it has to do with what > Paul says about the limitations of the "live to two-track" approach, though > there's no reason that properly *arranged* that you couldn't make a rich, > varied sound using the same production method. > To add to what Miles says here, it's not just the arrangements. Sure, if you add a keyboard player, that will reduce some of the "two guitars, bass, drum, vocalist" syndrome. But, since you're recording it live in the studio, and all the other musicians are playing, you (playing whichever instrument you're playing) are not going to try anything too experimental - since you could blow the take and have to start all over again. Some of the best stuff I've ever done has been accidental - I had tape rolling for reference, but I wasn't planning on keeping it, and those bits have been great. If you're not trying to keep it live to 2 track, and recording it multi-track, you can then take those bits (into something like ProTools, for instance) and work a good track up around them. Or it could be that the band just doesn't gel well. That can happen. You can gather the most talented musicians in a room, but if you don't have that "communication" then the results are pretty static. Again, the band I was in was pretty average, but every once in a while, we would all be on the same wavelength, and spontaneously come up with something cool that none of us could have come up with separately. I think Frank is trying to get a spontaneous sound - which is a laudable goal, of course. But, sometimes the live-to-2-track approach should be reserved for after you've played around with the songs quite a bit, and I don't think Frank is doing that. I think he's trying the musical equivalent of sketch paper. I would be curious to hear what the songs sound like after he's played them live a number of times - bet they crush the recorded versions. > I've got to agree with Dan on this one: FRANK BLACK was rippingly good, > and TEENAGER OF THE YEAR sublime. I think I had TEENAGER in the car > rotation for over two years. Over twenty hooky songs that don't outlive > their welcome (PINK FLAG, anyone?), insane variety of subjects and musical > approaches, ahhhhhh. All right - I picked up Teenager of the Year. You guys happy? (^_^) I'll try to listen to it with open ears, but after Frank Black, that might be hard. Don't know why that album leaves me cold - maybe I like Gil Norton's production better than Frank's? Cheers, Paul P.S. I'd hate to let you guys know that I'm listening to the new live Radiohead right now. That wouldn't do at all. Nope - not at all. (^_-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:55:27 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... In a message dated 18/12/01 17:41:44 GMT Standard Time, paulp@wrq.com writes: > I think Frank is trying to get a spontaneous sound - which is a laudable > goal, of course. But, sometimes the live-to-2-track approach should be > reserved for after you've played around with the songs quite a bit, and I > don't think Frank is doing that. I think he's trying the musical > equivalent of sketch paper. I would be curious to hear what the songs > sound like after he's played them live a number of times - bet they crush > the recorded versions. > > /////on that C4 documentary a couple of weeks back frank made the point > that on the early pixies albums he wrote it all really quick and it came > out great. he apologised for "trompe le monde" , saying that doing it > quickly seemed to have stopped working and maybe he should've spent a bit > more time on it. yet it seems like his solo stuff is bashed out even > quicker than ever , he doesn't really seem to have learnt the lesson. > > sorry but to me the FB solo albums just sound dull and not worth much > effort. and from his career sales profile , i think i'm far from alone in > that. p > > ps that doc was a great reminder quite how good the pixies were. though > sadly it was a bit "rent a wanker" as demigods like bowie , bono and travis > gave their not very humble opinions . tin machine's version of "debaser" > rates in my top 10 horrors........ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:13:18 -0500 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Mission of Burma Mission of Burma are to play two shows in Boston and NYC: http://www.missionofburma.com/mob/mob-pr1.html Syarzhuk _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:17:08 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Antitrade I don't recall seeing this on the list before (no big surprise if I'm wrong). Anyway, Antitrade is an Ash International "various artists" release, similar (but not really as good as) Decay and Antiphony. Bruce Gilbert has one short track entitled BOOK--it might be sounds actually made w/ a book, but I'm not certain. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:30:13 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Bruce/Eno Cards >From: Tim >This Way to The Shivering Man - Bruce Gilbert > >Another tentative step into the often turbelent waters of Brucie G. (So far >I have enjoyed Dome1-4, Ab Ovo and ...Fruit). In fact this is the best of >all the Bruce Gilbert records I've heard so far. As my recent rants on the cd issues probably show, I agree. Dome (all for me), Ad Ovo, and Fruit are also favorites. >Part 1 of 'Do You Me? I Did' is the best thing I've heard by him and >actually sounds very much like Colins Immersion music to me. There are few things in the world of recorded music that can match the beauty of "D Y M" pt. 1. When discussing this cd it's usually the Shiv. Man that gets praise (perhaps because of the 2, that release was most severly hurt by what they cut), but I may actually prefer "This Way". Elsewhere this >is excellent and obviously ahead of its time. Its just great electronic >music and begs the question, why doesn't he record more stuff because he >could probably wipe the floor with a lot of todays Laptop manglers. The only thing I would change here is to delete the word "probably". :) My speculation: having done this before, it's old hat to Bruce. He's not likely to repeat himself just because the world is catching up to where he was nearly 20 years ago. >And I also ordered myself a set of Brian Eno's Oblique Strategy Cards which >have been released in a new 2001 edition. I've always fancied getting my >hands on these, and intend to use them for the purpose they were intended! > >I ordered them from Rough Trade who are disorganised beyond belief, so I >have no expectations that I will actually get the cards....so if they >actually have some left and I get a set that will be a bonus. The intention >was there! These will eventually be available through Opal. I'll post if I hear anything. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:35:18 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Antitrade In a message dated 18/12/01 20:12:32 GMT Standard Time, mflaher3@triton.cc.il.us writes: > > > > > > I don't recall seeing this on the list before (no big surprise if I'm > wrong). Anyway, Antitrade is an Ash International "various artists" > release, similar (but not really as good as) Decay and Antiphony. > > Bruce Gilbert has one short track entitled BOOK--it might be sounds > ////so what are the tracks called on those other 2 compilations? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:29:57 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... >ps that doc was a great reminder quite how good the pixies were. though>sadly it was a bit "rent a wanker" as demigods like bowie , bono and >travis gave their not very humble opinions . tin machine's version of >"debaser" rates in my top 10 horrors........ > Oh my god - I laughed so hard it hurt on the "rent a wanker" line. Classic! Hmm - a version of Debaser by Tin Machine, eh? Might have to hunt that down.... (^_^) Yeah, as more and more time goes by, it seems that the Pixies were really more than the sum of their parts. (And, that's not to take anything away from Frank Black or the Breeders.) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:58:28 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... In a message dated 18/12/01 21:32:40 GMT Standard Time, paulp@wrq.com writes: > Hmm - a version of Debaser by Tin Machine, eh? Might have to hunt that > down.... (^_^) //// sadly i witnessed this horror live on the TM2 tour , dragged there by a friend who is a bowie fanatic. they also did the moody blues "go now". i don't think these tracks ever got put out on record , even too shite for a tin machine release i'd guess. in that pixies doc they edited it so immediately after thom yorke said "you can't cover a pixies song" up popped bowie (but not owning up to that crime). nice one mr producer. just think ; it must be the 20th anniversary of the last bearable Dame album. doesn't time fly. p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:19:03 -0800 (PST) From: eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) Subject: [idealcopy] 2001 Top Ten Here's what I found to listen to this past year. Plaid-Double Figure Swim Team #2 Biosphere-Substrata (1997) Blue States-Nothing Changes Under the Sun(2000) Peter Benisch-Soundtrack Saga Silo-Alloy Michael Stearns-The Storm Hox-It-ness Boards of Canada-In a Beautiful Place Out in the Country E.P.(2000) Various-The Night Watch This last one is an excellent compilation with the likes of Section 25, Ultramarine,and Crispy Ambulance. Plus it had a second disc of Section 25 material, which was mainly demos. Good stuff. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:58:59 +0000 From: Tim Subject: [idealcopy] Alright...'ere It Is....AGAIN! From this weeks poptastic NME: A Gig review which for me sums up the state of "alternative" music in 2001: "Rising rock 'n' roll punks THE PARKINSONS saw their show at LONDON's CARGO CLUB end in near riot last night (December 17) after the venue's doormen wrestled them off the stage and fought with fans desperate to keep the band on. Trouble flared shortly after the four-piece took to the stage at around 10.30pm (GMT). The band were unhappy at the sound in the venue and made their displeasure known smashing instruments and equipment. When they smashed a microphone, owned like all the PA equipment by the venue, several bouncers moved onto the stage. They attempted to stop the band during the second song and move them off but were pelted with bottles and spit by dozens of irritated fans. According to The Parkinsons manager, David Barnett, hordes of fans then rushed the stage enraged at the band's treatment. "The show started at half ten and was over by 10.40," he said. "We got out of there as quick as we could. We crowd were chanting 'Parkinsons, Parkinsons' as we left." Trouble spilled out onto the street, though there are no reports of any arrests or major disturbances. "" Uh-huh. Does this sound familar to any of you ideal-copyists at all? The Story continues: "Parkinsons have been working on their debut album, with former Jesus And Mary Chain singer Jim Reid producing. It is due for release through Fierce Panda in February." here comes the new Jesus & Mary Chain..same as the old Jesus & Mary Chain! What have The Strokes started? A new wave of carefully re-constructed Punk-Lite rebellion. With all the talk, the leather trousers, the haircuts and the dance moves. But what are these bands for?!?!? Are the NME sponsered "youth "of today trying to shake up the zeitgeist by carefully re-enacting rock history of the last 25 years? Is alternative music turning into some kind of musical 'Sealed Knot' society re-enacting famous cultural battles of yesteryear? Fackin Ell. This Christmas I suggest all of us cultural critics on IdealCopy raise a glass to the real makers of the 21st Century. The Hidden and the un-publicised. Those who mangle the Powerbook and tweak the fader. Those who quietly build a better musical future for us all while the NME and their misguided followers doggedly hope to start a new revolution by re-enacting the Punk wars. Heres to Newman, Gilbert, Gotobed, Lewis and all who dwell in Elgerland Vagerland. Heres to Christian Fennesz, Phillip Jeck, Silo, Symptoms, Jim O Rourke, Kid 606, Plaid, Richard H Kirk, Boards of Canada, Low, Oval and all the other artists I've enjoyed this year. Add your own favourites to this list. ____________________________ We Don't Hide In Caves. www.kidsindestructible.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 01:42:11 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Alright...'ere It Is....AGAIN! i second that!!! Cheers to you all! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 02:51:15 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Alright...'ere It Is....AGAIN! In a message dated 19/12/2001 03:02:28 GMT Standard Time, timrobinson@cwcom.net writes: > Heres to Newman, Gilbert, Gotobed, Lewis and all who dwell in Elgerland > Vagerland. Heres to Christian Fennesz, Phillip Jeck, Silo, Symptoms, Jim O > Rourke, Kid 606, Plaid, Richard H Kirk, Boards of Canada, Low, Oval and all > > the other artists I've enjoyed this year Spot on that man ! Chris ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #384 *******************************