From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #364 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, November 29 2001 Volume 04 : Number 364 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. [bartvanDamme ] Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] OT - The Fall, Manchester Poly, Nov 80... [giluz ] [idealcopy] EVERYBODY LOVES A HISTORY [kevin eden ] Re: [idealcopy] Comics... [bartvanDamme ] Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Comics... [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Comics... [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Comics... [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Comics... [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] [RLynn9@aol.com] [idealcopy] Last weekend I listened to ... [WARNING: No Fall or Breeders Content!] [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] This Way, my Shivering Man ["k erickson" ] Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] OT-The Fall ["ian.s. jackson" ] [idealcopy] OT-Sparks of Destiny [Naz_not_Nik Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. op 28-11-2001 22:43 schreef CHRISWIRE@aol.com op CHRISWIRE@aol.com: > In a message dated 28/11/2001 19:48:02 GMT Standard Time, > bartvandamme@home.nl writes: > > >> )..I am proud of >>> comic books..a true American artform >> > > Robert > In Britain we have "The Beano" & the true comic book hero "Dennis The Menace" > Chris I didn't write: I am proud of... just: comic books..a true American artform Bart bartvandamme@home.nl http://www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:45:36 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. > I'd forgotten about VIZ.Can't have read a copy now for at least a couple of > years.Thoroughly enjoyable stuff.How the BBC could do with a Roger Mellie > type instead of Michael Parkinson or Jonathan Woss ! Sorry my Non British > ICers. > Chris I get the Beeb here in Holland! :-) Sometimes watch Parkinson [depending on guests] or Jonathan Ross [the filmprogram right? The speech impediment?] Don't know VIZ though... Bart bartvandamme@home.nl http://www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:27:25 -0000 From: "Jerry" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. V for Vendetta is, indeed, fine though maybe the Guy Fawkes analogy was a little over stated. Don't forget David J from Bauhaus did that single based around the character with lyrics by Alan Moore. And don't forget Judge Dredd, Dan Dare, etc. In fact...American artform? Not sure about that. The first British comics (or 'penny dreadfuls' were published in the early 20th century). That said you yanks have claimed the medium, developed it and made it your own. j - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. > In a message dated 11/28/01 3:44:58 PM Central Standard Time, > CHRISWIRE@aol.com writes: > > > > > )..I am proud of > > > > comic books..a true American artform > > > > > > > Robert > > In Britain we have "The Beano" & the true comic book hero "Dennis The > > Menace" > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > I think V for Vendetta (set in Britain) by Alan Moore and David Lloyd (Brits) > Is one of the best comic books EVER..I believe it was originally serialized > in a British comic anthology....a great story about a man (or woman?) who > sets about destroying a fascist government...He blows up Big Ben and the > House of Parliament and extracts revenge on each of the people who worked at > the "resettlement camp" aka concentration camp that he (or she) was > imprisoned at...the revenge takes place in a variety of creative ways....kind > of remiscent of Vincent Price's Dr. Phibes character in the film of the same > name... > > Robert > - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 24/11/01 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:07:15 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. on 11/29/01 2:13 AM, RLynn9@aol.com at RLynn9@aol.com wrote: > I think V for Vendetta (set in Britain) by Alan Moore and David Lloyd (Brits) > Is one of the best comic books EVER..I believe it was originally serialized > in a British comic anthology....a great story about a man (or woman?) who > sets about destroying a fascist government...He blows up Big Ben and the > House of Parliament and extracts revenge on each of the people who worked at > the "resettlement camp" aka concentration camp that he (or she) was > imprisoned at...the revenge takes place in a variety of creative ways....kind > of remiscent of Vincent Price's Dr. Phibes character in the film of the same > name... > > Robert > Alan Moore's a genius. You should also read his (and Eddie Campbell's) 'From Hell' - an almost encyclopeadic account of the Jack the Ripper story. Comics being 'a true American artform', I always found myself, in the end, liking the British authors best: Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Jamie Delano, Garth Ennis, Warren Ellis & Mike Carey, for example, are better than any other American comics authors I've read. cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:07:57 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-The Fall on 11/29/01 2:02 AM, RLynn9@aol.com at RLynn9@aol.com wrote: > did the Fall ever make any forays into electronics? even remotely?..just > curious > > Robert Lynn > Code Selfish and actually a few other songs/singles during the 90's, but on the Code Selfish tour they even had someone with a sequencer and computer on stage. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:10:45 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] on 11/28/01 10:02 PM, Paul Pietromonaco at paulp@wrq.com wrote: > I think most people are *too* familiar with it. It gets played to > death over here in the 'states. Probably in many other places in the > world, too. > Even when I was 13, and when I still liked it, I didn't understand what was so progressive about the Dark Side - always struck me as a collection of middle of the road songs, quite melodic and pleasant to the ear. Certainly, even in Pink Floyd terms, and especially at the time it was released, a commercial venture meant to make loads of cash. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:12:48 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] on 11/28/01 8:50 PM, bartvanDamme at bartvandamme@home.nl wrote: > I haven't played any of their stuff ever since. I don't have it on cd and > sold all my vinyl except for Meddle. [though I never should have sold a > masterpiece like Umma Gumma]. The documentary about Barrett sort of woke my > PF-ears again... Found some old 70's PF cassettes a few years ago and tried to listen to them - - bored the hell out of me. Nothing they did was better than the Piper at the Gates of Dawn. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:16:46 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-postmodernism on 11/28/01 11:58 PM, k erickson at saintgermain@earthlink.net wrote: > and speaking of Art and Money, wouldn't it be interesting to see how they > influenced each other in a truly free market, not the rhetorical 'free market' > we keep hearing about? It would be more than interesting - that's certainly the objective (I think) of any 'alternative' label or artist. > > Giluz wrote: > >> Of course, this is not as simple as it sounds: There's more than one set of >> conventions and rules, and there's more than one centre - mainstream is just >> a generalisation used to define numerous musical styles. > > we've noted before the elasticity, or adaptability, of the mainstream. > 'mainstream' really is defined more by effect than by affect, although > stylistically the latter is all too often an accurate approximation. but > certainly we can imagine a mainstream not defined by the current power > relations? nor would it necessarily be equalising....but there could be some > superficiality, or it could become too extreme for one's taste, so let's scrap > it. How can mainstream not be defined by power relations? Or did you mean specifically not defined by the CURRENT power relations? cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:17:28 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - The Fall, Manchester Poly, Nov 80... on 11/29/01 12:14 AM, ian.s. jackson at iansjackson@hotmail.com wrote: > another Fall memory... > WOMAD Festival, Mersea Island, Essex, 1985 (or 86...) > Smith walks onstage... > 'Hello, we are The Fall, and we are from the First World...' > band then breaks into a stunning version of 'Gut Of The Quantifier'... > magic, pure magic...;) I've got a recording of this one somewhere (haven't been there, though). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:47:50 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-postmodernism > Kristoph wrote: >> Bart (d'oh!) wrote: >>> Giluz wrote: >>> So I don't believe that everything's equal - everything's relative. >> To me postmodernism is not so about equalizing rather than the notion that >> "anything goes" wich can be liberating on the one hand and superficial on >> the other. > > 'anything goes' sounds more like a bastardisation of postmodernism, maybe part > of a broader cultural response. Well, I did put between quotes, didn't I? ;-) > but if it can be liberating, why (and how) would you put it back into the box? > because it could be superficial? I would never put it back in a box - I was trying to show there's also a flipside to the liberating part... but then again, superficiality too can sometimes be very liberating. ;-) > would you > use your own judgement, be it on either side of Giluz' scientific/ > poetic scale, to un-liberate? Politicly spoken, well you just have to choose sides sometimes, how "unliberating" this may be, but only in my mind I would like to have the freedom of looking at things any way I want. > and speaking of Art and Money, wouldn't it be interesting to see how they > influenced each other in a truly free market, not the rhetorical 'free market' > we keep hearing about? This has been going on ever since Andy Warhol spoke of the art of doing good business. Here in Groningen there was an exhibition a couple of years ago called "Bu$ine$$ Art" where artist really explored this theme. Again, some work was liberating [and sometimes very funny] and some superficial [clichi's like swapping religious imagery and corporate logos *yawn*]. > Giluz wrote: > >> Of course, this is not as simple as it sounds: There's more than one set of >> conventions and rules, and there's more than one centre - mainstream is just >> a generalisation used to define numerous musical styles. > > we've noted before the elasticity, or adaptability, of the mainstream. > 'mainstream' really is defined more by effect than by affect, although > stylistically the latter is all too often an accurate approximation. but > certainly we can imagine a mainstream not defined by the current power > relations? nor would it necessarily be equalising....but there could be some > superficiality, or it could become too extreme for one's taste, so let's scrap > it. I've allready said what I wanted to say about this subject [emailing with Giluz from 16-11-2001]. > remember Roger's lament from FINAL CUT? (Bart you won't recognise this, having > stopped listening to Floyd when they 'started fooling around with halfwit > politics') Indeed I don't! But I DO want to give Roger credit for the way he spoke warmly about Syd Barrett in the formentioned Syd documentary. > "should we shout, should we scream, > what happened to the post-[modern] dream?" > kristoph Post dream? This is what Roger is doing post-Floyd?! ;-) Cheers, Bart[icus Eclecticus] bartvandamme@home.nl http://www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] EVERYBODY LOVES A HISTORY ONE COPY LEFT!!! HURRAH HURRAH HURRAH!!! ===== kevin eden wmo limited, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk e-mail: wmouk@yahoo.com web: www.wiremailorder.com "dreams that money can buy" Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:30:02 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Comics... Giluz wrote: > Alan Moore's a genius. You should also read his (and Eddie Campbell's) 'From > Hell' - an almost encyclopeadic account of the Jack the Ripper story. Comics > being 'a true American artform', I always found myself, in the end, liking > the British authors best: Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Jamie Delano, Garth > Ennis, Warren Ellis & Mike Carey, for example, are better than any other > American comics authors I've read. > > cheers, > giluz Well technically spoken the art of comics started with the likes of 19th century Wilhelm Busch [ http://www.wilhelm-busch-museum.de ] but you can just as easily say that the Egyptians beat him to it. The 20th century americans just gave it such a boost into the media, it really began to flourish and the great masters like Fleischer and Disney started to appear. The European postwar comic-boom was very much rooted in this american tradition. Therefor it's not just a matter of taste agreeing or not with the "true American artform" statement. But speaking of true Brittish draughtsmanship, how about the late, great and sometimes even Pythonesk Edward Gorey? [ http://www.goreyography.com/west/master/master.htm ] Someone like Ronald Searle also draws more from the European [read W. Busch] heritage. Cheers, Bart bartvandamme@home.nl http://www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:37:51 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] > >> "Wish you were Here" [last PF album I could stand] > > > > Does this mean you like 'Dark Side of the Moon'? > > Hmmm, it certainly was not my favourite. I used to like the early albums up > to Meddle and also Wish You Were Here. For me Dark Side has a few good > songs, but I'm just not too familiar with it. Songs like "Money" allways put > me off a little. ///// i still really like meddle/moon/wish , if i'm in the right mood i think they're often just the ticket. "money" sits very oddly on DSOTM , it does sound a bit like a deliberately commercial "trailer" for the lp. but the rest of it always sounded quite heartfelt to me , there were much easier ways of getting rich than DSOTM. played animals last week and it sounded much better than i remembered. the mary whitehouse reference i never got before (i had a tape without a lyric sheet). how timely , huh. ummagumma live stuff is great but the mostly self-indulgent solo stuff (hi nick , you again) is hardly classic. I rather heard these millionair rockstars truthfully > singing about Saint Tropez than fooling around with halfwit politics. In the > Wall [the song] this notion of so-called rebellion to me became unbareble. //// i really hate the wall lp , i just can't get into it at all. every time i've been to the states i hear comfortably numb about 50 times , which is around 49 too many. The documentary about Barrett sort of woke my > PF-ears again... > ////yeah , it was a great show. p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:34:29 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Comics... << The European postwar comic-boom was very much rooted in this american tradition. Therefor it's not just a matter of taste agreeing or not with the "true American artform" statement. >> The statement is fundamentally wrong. The concept of a "comic" - a book or magazine with drawn stories, is British, and dates back to the 19th century. The "comic book" (or even "graphic novel") is an American variation. Whether Spiderman or the Beano are deemed to be artforms is a question of taste. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:46:31 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] Paul, << ///// i still really like meddle/moon/wish , if i'm in the right mood i think they're often just the ticket. "money" sits very oddly on DSOTM , it does sound a bit like a deliberately commercial "trailer" for the lp. but the rest of it always sounded quite heartfelt to me , there were much easier ways of getting rich than DSOTM.<< My punk rock puritanism over matters prog lasted a long time. I staunchly resisted buying any 70s Pink Floyd right through the 80s (though I'd always liked the Syd stuff). Finally caved in in the mid-90s when I bought cheap secondhand CD copies of Dark side and WYWH in the states. As you say, when the mood takes you, they're very good albums. And they haven't dated like most prog (Yes, ELP, King Crimson etc). >> played animals last week and it sounded much better than i remembered. the mary whitehouse reference i never got before (i had a tape without a lyric sheet). how timely , huh.<< Always hated it. Just reminds me of being at School, where I heard it a lot but it was the absolute antithesis of what I was listening to. Animals is responsible for my Floyd blacklisting. The Mary W reference was known at the time - forgotten about that. However I shall purloin a copy... >>ummagumma live stuff is great but the mostly self-indulgent solo stuff (hi nick , you again) is hardly classic. << Nick M - a slender talent, thinly spread I'm afraid. Got a nice collection of cars though. >> //// i really hate the wall lp , i just can't get into it at all. every time i've been to the states i hear comfortably numb about 50 times , which is around 49 too many. >> The Wall is utter, utter pants, apart from the single. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:50:50 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. Bart, << Don't know VIZ though... >> Describing Viz to foreigners is a bit like explaining cricket to Americans. It's a comic in the style of the Beano, aimed at adults, whose content is a blend of biting satire and the crudest, most childish form of toilet humour. Knowledge of old British comic traditions are essential. A work of genius, though its absolute peak was about 10 years ago. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:29:55 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. In a message dated 11/29/01 5:24:17 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@vane-recordings.com writes: << In fact...American artform? Not sure about that. The first British comics (or 'penny dreadfuls' were published in the early 20th century). That said you yanks have claimed the medium, developed it and made it your own. j >> Hmmm...well the funny thing is Little Nemo and The Yellow Kid were around in the 1800's so put that in yer pipe and smoke it! The Yellow Kid is recognized universally as THE FIRST comic strip....so there... Cheers! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:32:29 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. In a message dated 11/29/01 7:10:38 AM Central Standard Time, giluz@netvision.net.il writes: << Alan Moore's a genius. You should also read his (and Eddie Campbell's) 'From Hell' - an almost encyclopeadic account of the Jack the Ripper story. Comics being 'a true American artform',>>>> yes! i have these and read them over and over...the movie however, sucks <<< I always found myself, in the end, liking the British authors best: Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Jamie Delano, Garth Ennis, Warren Ellis & Mike Carey, for example, are better than any other American comics authors I've read.>>>> well, i guess i agree with that...but American artists are the best anywhere.....Jim Woodring...Charles Burns...Dan Clowes...Chris Ware...Seth....etc etc. Robert cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:40:19 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Comics... In a message dated 11/29/01 8:31:09 AM Central Standard Time, bartvandamme@home.nl writes: << But speaking of true Brittish draughtsmanship, how about the late, great and sometimes even Pythonesk Edward Gorey? >> Edward Gorey is amazing! and a great influence on some of my favorite comic artists like Richard Sala... Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:43:00 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Comics... In a message dated 11/29/01 9:39:39 AM Central Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: << The statement is fundamentally wrong. The concept of a "comic" - a book or magazine with drawn stories, is British, and dates back to the 19th century. The "comic book" (or even "graphic novel") is an American variation. Whether Spiderman or the Beano are deemed to be artforms is a question of taste. Mark >> oh? so i guess if it isn't hanging on some wall in some art gallery with a bunch of rich snobs pontificating all over it then it is not considered "art"? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:44:29 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Comics... In a message dated 11/29/01 9:39:39 AM Central Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: << The statement is fundamentally wrong. The concept of a "comic" - a book or magazine with drawn stories, is British, and dates back to the 19th century. The "comic book" (or even "graphic novel") is an American variation. Whether Spiderman or the Beano are deemed to be artforms is a question of taste. >> so having said that i guess not a single "rock-n-roll" musician is not an artist...classical music is the only music that is art ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:46:45 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] In a message dated 11/29/01 9:51:56 AM Central Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: << The Wall is utter, utter pants, apart from the single. Mark >> Run Like Hell is the only decent song on that album.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:47:10 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Last weekend I listened to ... [WARNING: No Fall or Breeders Content!] ... King Crimson at the Chicago Theatre. As Belew's voice was shot, they primarily played instrumentals. I was pretty happy. The main reason I'm posting this is that I know a lot of you are non-US Crimson fans. At all US shows they are selling a cd called "Level 5." It has 3 new intrumental tracks, a new version of the evolving instumental "The Deception of the Thrush", an improv, and, for some reason, a live version of "The Construction of Light." Anyway... It will go on sale on the DGM web site (disciplineglobalmobile.com) after the tour ends sometime next month. It is a limited edition, and will sell out fast. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:51:59 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] This Way, my Shivering Man I finally got a copy of the Insiding set, w/ the complete versions of This Way and The Shivering Man on cd. I can't tell you how beautiful they sounded coming through my speakers. I'm a firm believer in "to each his/her own," but it still amazes me that anyone could fail to be moved by these two albums, or that Mute wouldn't think they're worth releasing in their entirity. They're both easily on my all time best list. OK, I feel better now. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 09:56:48 -0800 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] a few Wire questions for everyone At 11:08 AM -0500 11/15/01, RLynn9@aol.com wrote: > >also, what do most ideal copyists consider the rarest Wire related item? and >which item drove you nuts trying to find? share your stories please! I think >for me it was a toss up between MZUI lp and the AC Marias 7" "So/Drop"....... Sorry to jump in late on this question... being out of town(*) I always wondered about Kevin listing the Mannequin 12in in his book... never heard it existed... does it? Or is it a "nasty" typo? Those promo box set or the exhibit tape has been the rarest that I have heard. That I have, I have a promo LP for Live at the Roxy from Japan, that is individually numbered (on the white-background label to 21 I think). I heard that it was only issued as a promo in Japan (i.e., no commercial release there)... but that sounds difficult to believe. Does anyone know if the German colored vinyls for the 12in's were very limited? I have two of them. I have not tried to get into the collector's market in quite a while... scary these days with eBay. cheers! - -f. (*) by the way, I saw copies of The Third Day at a Paris record store... I think it was Gilbert Joseph in St. Michel. I will go again in December (xmas time), if someone wants me to look, let me know. Otherwise, someone in the area could volunteer to help! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:11:57 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] This Way, my Shivering Man In a message dated 11/29/01 11:46:31 AM Central Standard Time, mflaher3@triton.cc.il.us writes: << I finally got a copy of the Insiding set, w/ the complete versions of This Way and The Shivering Man on cd. I can't tell you how beautiful they sounded coming through my speakers. I'm a firm believer in "to each his/her own," but it still amazes me that anyone could fail to be moved by these two albums, or that Mute wouldn't think they're worth releasing in their entirity. They're both easily on my all time best list. OK, I feel better now. Michael Flaherty >> Michael...i couldn't agree with you more! They are FANTASTIC!! i remember how happay i was when mine first came though the mail!...listen to them constantly! Robert Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:17:00 +0100 From: "janjnoorda" Subject: [idealcopy] Tables of Elements I became today the back-catalogue of Tables of Elements recordings They mentioned a release Bruce Gilbert: Ordier TOE-CD-35 but it never came out till sofar. Also mentioned Yttrium festival in the Empty bottle 7,8 en 9 nov. 1996 with performers: Bruce Gilbert, Tony Conrad, John Fahey etc. What happened with these recordings. Are there recordings made from the festival. Is there anyone who knows something about this? LUYH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:56:03 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] Paul wrote://// i really hate the wall lp , i just can't get into it at all. every time i've been to the states i hear comfortably numb about 50 times , which is around 49 too many. Don't know when you were last here Paul,or where,or to which radio station you listen to(unless it was an 'oldies" station) but i haven't heard p.fthank god)on the radio for several years.i listen to 'student'(read alternative/'punk')and jazz stations .Ari Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:32:36 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] In a message dated 11/29/01 1:57:40 PM Central Standard Time, luvjazzz@yahoo.com writes: << Don't know when you were last here Paul,or where,or to which radio station you listen to(unless it was an 'oldies" station) but i haven't heard p.fthank god)on the radio for several years. >> Yes....i agree....IF ONLY the radio here in states played such "crap" as Pink Floyd....no, radio in the states is in the worst shape it's ever been...It's all Limp Bizkit rock-n-rap crap...Britney and Christina shite...or rappers bragging about their money, bitches, and private parts....or that disgusting messiah wanna be utter SHIT called Creed......oh yes, i definately find myself missing (oddly enough) Pink Floyd's "Wish you were Here"..as well as "Roundabout" by Yes...Genesis, Rush, blah blah blah...but then it fades and i put on a cd...screw radio period...unless it's of course pirate radio or public stations! which i am applying for a spot right now! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:34:26 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] hopefully if i get my radio show Hello Ideal Copyists! Any of you guys have any suggestions for a title for my late night ambient/electronic/avant garde/musique concrete/experimental radio show? Robert Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:34:21 -0000 From: "Ian B" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT Viz From: To: ; > Describing Viz to foreigners is a bit like explaining cricket to Americans. > It's a comic in the style of the Beano, aimed at adults, whose content is a > blend of biting satire and the crudest, most childish form of toilet humour. > Knowledge of old British comic traditions are essential. A work of genius, > though its absolute peak was about 10 years ago. > > Mark I still rate Viz - got the new edition just yesterday. Last edition (in Leeds at least) came with a free copy of "Welcome to Elland Road" - a pictorial history - well, last few decades - of Leeds United. Viz quality might be about to go down the pan as there going from 6 to 10 editions a year. 11 years ago I went travelling in China for a few months and took a copy of Viz for the flight. Somewhere mid-journey I passed it on to some other English lads I met, and the same mag (my copy) turned up about a month later about a thousand miles away in the hands of another travelling Brit. Ian B np Killing Joke - What's This For PS did anybody else just get about a hundred IC emails twice? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:38:28 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. In a message dated 29/11/2001 15:51:49 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > Describing Viz to foreigners is a bit like explaining cricket to Americans. > It's a comic in the style of the Beano, aimed at adults, whose content is a > blend of biting satire and the crudest, most childish form of toilet > humour. > Knowledge of old British comic traditions are essential. A work of genius, > though its absolute peak was about 10 years ago. > > Mark > Well done Mark That explanation of Viz is just about right.Explaining cricket to Americans is easy.It's a bit like baseball but a lot better. (Tongue in cheek) Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:38:56 -0400 From: "k erickson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] This Way, my Shivering Man i recently purchased the original vinyl and came to the same conclusion. the compilation cd is criminally deficient....all the tracks left off are essential. my early favourite is 'There Are' -- what a hauntingly beautiful track! 'Net in the Feather' is also excellent.... are any of Bruce's other cd releases similarly deficient? kristoph - ---------- >I finally got a copy of the Insiding set, w/ the complete versions of This >Way and The Shivering Man on cd. I can't tell you how beautiful they >sounded coming through my speakers. > >I'm a firm believer in "to each his/her own," but it still amazes me that >anyone could fail to be moved by these two albums, or that Mute wouldn't >think they're worth releasing in their entirity. They're both easily on my >all time best list. > >OK, I feel better now. > >Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:10:31 -0800 (PST) From: eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] Robert vented: <<...screw radio period...unless it's of course pirate radio or public stations! >> My feelings exactly Robert. Anytime I'm within earshot of a top 40 station I just want to puke. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:24:00 -0800 (PST) From: eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] This Way, my Shivering Man <> Michael- Where did you get this from? I'd love to hear these two in the entirety. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:15:41 -0800 From: "John M Campbell" Subject: [idealcopy] comix sheesh! it's about time someone mentioned Jim Woodring. Master of color, grand poobah of the ambiguous yarn. The wise will check him out! www.jimwoodring.com It is my priviledge, by the way , to print his and all of the other AHTEEST'S Tshirts at Fantagraphics books ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:18:25 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] need Ideal Copyists mojo.. JERRY WROTE:In fact...American artform? Not sure about that. The first British comics (or 'penny dreadfuls' were published in the early 20th century). That said you yanks have claimed the medium, developed it and made it your own. iF YOU really WANT TO GO BACK..LOOK AT THE CAVE DRAWINGS,OR THE PYRAMIDS.THE FACT IS THAT AS FAR AS 'MODERN' COMIX ARE CONCERNED WE(AMERICA)DID 'INVENT' THE ART FORM BY MAKING A SERIES OF DRAWINGS WITH A STORY LINE,AND INSERTING 'BUBBLES' IN WHICH To PLACE THE SCRIPT.I recently read an article in the N.Y times that gave the 'history of' and there was no disputing this fact.and yes,it goes all the way back to the 1800's.Ari Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:50:29 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Comics... on 11/29/01 7:43 PM, RLynn9@aol.com at RLynn9@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/29/01 9:39:39 AM Central Standard Time, > MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > >> << The statement is fundamentally wrong. The concept of a "comic" - a book or >> magazine with drawn stories, is British, and dates back to the 19th century. >> The "comic book" (or even "graphic novel") is an American variation. Whether >> Spiderman or the Beano are deemed to be artforms is a question of taste. > >> Mark >> > > oh? so i guess if it isn't hanging on some wall in some art gallery with a > bunch of rich snobs pontificating all over it then it is not considered "art"? > so having said that i guess not a single "rock-n-roll" musician is not an > artist...classical music is the only music that is art ? Do you really want your favourite art to be hung on some wall in a gallery, being drooled on by rich snobs? Everything has its price.:) gilu'Z ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:02:22 +0000 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-The Fall ><< >I think the Unutterable is the only one that (almost?) everyone > >recommends. It just keeps gettng better and better. > > absolutely, played it again last night and it is one of THE great Fall > albums. >> > >Agreed. Apart from Stand up fucking Billy. > >Mark hahaha.... er, and, 'Pumpkin Soup and Mashed Potatoes'... ok...APART from those two, it's a fucking great album...;) ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 01:17:27 +0000 From: Naz_not_Nik Subject: [idealcopy] OT-Sparks of Destiny In message , Heather . writes Hi, It's Nik's partner here, Sparks fan since my teens, so I couldn't resist butting in. >At the moment, my favorite Sparks album is their newest one, "Balls." Personally, I find this one a bit sterile (Nik says it reeks of Pet Shop Boys ... but then of course the Sparks might say that the Pet Shop Boys reek of *them* ... and the Pet Shop Boys might agree). Perhaps I need to listen to it a few more times to get myself properly 'conditioned'. > >I highly recommend it, especially the track, "How to get your Ass kicked > >." It amazes me that a group so good, who've been together for almost > >thirty years, still haven't got their proper recognition in the US. > Hear, hear. (Erm, that problem doesn't only prevail in the US, though. Apart from Nik, the last person I met who could even remember who Sparks were was a record shop assistant I spoke to in about 1992.) >Some of my other favorite Sparks tracks are "Beat the Clock", "#1 song > >in Heaven", and "Looks Looks Looks." Have you heard their duet with > >Les Rita Mitsouko, "Singing in the Shower"? I haven't heard it yet, but > >I have heard the song "Andy" by Les Rita Mitsouko, and liked it very > >much. The video is even better! That duet is quite fun - it's on Les Rita Mitsouko's "Marc & Robert" (recommended to me by that same record shop assistant). It also includes a couple of other Sparks collaborations. Among recent Sparks records, my favourite is Plagiarism - it contains a lot of clever reworkings of old favourites, among them a few with Symphony-orchestra-only backing that actually *come off* (including one of two versions of "This Town ..." - the other version is a punchy collaboration with Faith No More). Lots of energy. Among the older ones, anyone who likes the Sparks' quirky style should listen into the first two LPs they made (pre-Kimono My House, i.e. before they were "famous" - the first one was originally released under the name "Halfnelson" and only later re-issued as a Sparks record). May the dugga be wid ya! Nasrudin www.sufi-net.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:07:24 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PIN'K FL.......[hehe, gotcha!] In a message dated 11/29/01 9:39:53 AM, PaulRabjohn@aol.com writes: >"money" sits very oddly on DSOTM , it does sound a bit like a deliberately >commercial "trailer" for the lp. but the rest of it always sounded quite >heartfelt to me , there were much easier ways of getting rich than DSOTM. reminded me of a funny (not really though) thing...when i was about 14 i borrowed dark side from my public library. took it home, pulled the record from the sleeve and...as i was about to set it down on the turntable and sit back and stare at the cover while spacing out to the tunes i noticed that the entire surface of 'money' (and only that track!) was completely scratched up. it was obvious it hadn't been from overplaying of the song by the other young teenage boys in my town, but by an evil librarian hell bent on censoring the word "bullshit" hehe. i only wish i had video of her face as she heard that song for the first time, and of her as she painstakingly made crisscross scratches around the entire disc, carefully etching out only the one song. - -paul c.d. (who hasn't listened to pf in the last 15 years, but still thinks meddle and animals are cool albums) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:35:19 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: american radio In a message dated 11/29/01 3:35:02 PM, RLynn9@aol.com writes: >radio in the states is in the worst shape it's ever been. i've probably said this before (maybe a while back) but...here in ny we have the best radio i've ever heard. the absolute best coming from college stations (88.7, 89.1, 89.9, 90.1, 90.7). that is where i hear all the new indie/lo-fi/experimental/ electronica i read about on lists like this one. there are even decent periods of time on commercial stations (92.7, 94.3) where i can occasionally wake up to joy division, new order, the smiths, ministry, the the, the cure, psych furs, pixies, or bjork, as well as other decent bands that wouldn't be a first choice but are refreshing to hear during the morning rush (b52's, peter gabriel, morrissey, depeche mode, r.e.m., u2, etc.). sadly, i haven't heard anything wire related on any station for a long time. last thing was probably eardrumbuzz on commercial radio over a year ago (at least)! - -another the paul (c.d.) ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #364 *******************************