From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #361 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, November 28 2001 Volume 04 : Number 361 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Cool as Kim Deal, correction ["bartvandamme@home" ] Re: [idealcopy] Cool as Kim Deal, correction [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... ["bartvandamme@home" ] [idealcopy] ringtones ["janjnoorda" ] [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) [Eardrumbuz@a] Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) ["Heather] [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] OT - Apostrophes [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) [Eardrumb] Re: [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned [space_bandits@webtv.net] Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) ["Heather] Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned [space_bandits@webtv.net] Re: [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies [Ari Britt ] Fwd: Re: [idealcopy] Cool as Kim Deal, correction [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned [space_bandits@webtv.net] Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) [RLynn9@a] Re: [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) ["Heather] [idealcopy] OT-damned [Francis ] and back again Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT-PiL [space_bandits@webtv.net] Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:23:40 +0100 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Cool as Kim Deal, correction > Crazy text e-mail software... > > Replace "jointto" with "joint to" in my previous message... > > (It looked fine in the outgoing mail folder - honest!) the Horror! the Horror! ;-) Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:34:51 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: ageism ///mine would hve been the birmingham powerhouse gig on the nations saving grace tour. but remember i am much younger than many on here.p oooooooh duchesssss, hark at her, etc. Howard (still laughing at the audacity of the man) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 07:22:44 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Cool as Kim Deal, correction on a pixies note , i see C4 are running a show about the pixies late night tomorrow. a retrospective i presume , my tv guide gives no data saw some footage of frank black at last years reading festival. he's now shaved his head , weighs about 20 stones and was wearing a sleeveless smock and big baggy jeans with a 6" turn up. they showed a couple of new songs and a terrible version of "gouge away". i loved the pixies but this was desperately bad stuff. does anybody actually rate FB's solo output? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:27:45 +0100 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OUR FRANK... > on a pixies note , i see C4 are running a show about the pixies late night > tomorrow. a retrospective i presume , my tv guide gives no data Pixies and Wire, my 2 fav's ever! Damn dubble-damn, I don't receive it in Holland. [can anybody record it?] > saw some footage of frank black at last years reading festival. he's now > shaved his head , weighs about 20 stones and was wearing a sleeveless smock > and big baggy jeans with a 6" turn up. they showed a couple of new songs and a > terrible version of "gouge away". i loved the pixies but this was desperately > bad stuff. does anybody actually rate FB's solo output? p I have all FB's solo stuff on cd and though it's sometimes lacks the youthfull energy and total weirdness of the Pixies, I still would rate them as quite excellent releases. You can hear the development from the first 2 albums, wich are rather Beach Boyish and strangely cheerfull, to the later more bleak rock 'n roll [sometimes even Stooges-like] recordings together with the Catholics. Both lyrics and music show that for good ol' Frank life don't seem like quite a box of choclates. Cheer up Frank! :-) I saw him performing without Pixies 2 times in Groningen - first in the larger Oosterpoort wich was too loud and mechanical and the second time in smaller club Vera wich was rather wonderfull! [shame I was a bit unwell from that baaaad pizza] Anyway, from me nothing but praise for one of the very best songwriters and performers ever! R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl ========================== http://www.channel4.com/4music/on_air.html 00:40 The Pixies The Pixies continue to be a huge influence on some of the biggest artists in the world today. Based around rare footage of their first gig in London in 1988 (much of it shown for the first time on British TV), this documentary looks at how the US four-piece re-defined rock music in the '90s. The programme includes interviews with the band themselves and, among others, David Bowie, U2, Radiohead, PJ Harvey, Badly Drawn Boy and Blur. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:10:58 +0100 From: "janjnoorda" Subject: [idealcopy] ringtones Yes, indeed a release on Touch rec, called Ringtones with contributions of Bruce Gilbert called Robbery/Air Raid and one of Graham Lewis called FIAT/KANUANSER/KERRING [For use with the Nokia vibrating phone only]/DOOB and lots of others Music for listening to mobile phones despite calls or answering back. A phone ringing in a midnight house... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:04:42 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) In a message dated 11/27/01 4:18:48 AM, PaulRabjohn@aol.com writes: >seen both the damned and smear of dysentry over the years (both sort of >ok but i don't think i ever bought a record by either) the damned-machine gun etiquette is probably in my all time top 10, definitely in the top 20. great live band too, unless you were my 98 lb wife (then girlfriend) squashed against the stage by all teh thugs in the audience. that lasted one song, then i got her a seat on one of the road cases at the foot of the stage. never saw spear of destiny. i have a couple of records that i'll admit i haven't listened to in so long i don't remember any songs. theatre of hate i liked much better though, but i didn't discover them until the change had already taken place. ghost of love is a great song. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:18:39 -0600 From: "Heather ." Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) Greetings! I love the Damned! "Machine Gun Ettiquette" is indeed a great album, with my personal favorite being "Plan 9 Channel 7." Anyone here listen to their "Phantasmagoria" album? I have a soft spot for it, since it was my very first Damned tape. I am no familiar with Spear of Destiny, but unfortunately, their name reminds me of the band Gleaming Spires, whose big "hit" was "Are You Ready for the Sex Girls?". Apparently, that song is still a big hit at some strip clubs. - -Heather >From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com >To: idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:04:42 EST > >In a message dated 11/27/01 4:18:48 AM, PaulRabjohn@aol.com writes: > > >seen both the damned and smear of dysentry over the years (both sort of > >ok but i don't think i ever bought a record by either) > >the damned-machine gun etiquette is probably in my all time top 10, >definitely in the top 20. great live band too, unless you were my 98 lb >wife >(then girlfriend) squashed against the stage by all teh thugs in the >audience. that lasted one song, then i got her a seat on one of the road >cases at the foot of the stage. > >never saw spear of destiny. i have a couple of records that i'll admit i >haven't listened to in so long i don't remember any songs. theatre of hate >i >liked much better though, but i didn't discover them until the change had >already taken place. ghost of love is a great song. > >-paul c.d. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:22:54 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies In a message dated 11/27/01 7:24:50 AM, PaulRabjohn@aol.com writes: >saw some footage of frank black at last years reading festival. he's now >shaved his head , weighs about 20 stones and was wearing a sleeveless smock does weighing 20 stones mean he gained or lost weight? what do i weigh (at 170 lbs)? >and big baggy jeans with a 6" turn up. they showed a couple of new songs >and a terrible version of "gouge away". i loved the pixies but this was >desperately bad stuff. does anybody actually rate FB's solo output? p i wanted so much to like his solo stuff, but there is just no comparing him to the pixies. they are one of my all time fave bands, likely in the top 5, top 10 for sure. i rate the breeders much higher, but pixies are one of those things where the whole is much greater than the sum of the parts...or something like that. i think he has a few good songs here and there, nothing as good as any pixies song. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:29:42 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies 14lb = 1stone Americans! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:43:20 +0300 From: giluz Subject: [idealcopy] OT - Apostrophes http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:03:39 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) In a message dated 11/27/01 6:20:19 PM, ultratwist@hotmail.com writes: >I love the Damned! "Machine Gun Ettiquette" is indeed a > >great album, with my personal favorite being "Plan 9 Channel 7." > >Anyone here listen to their "Phantasmagoria" album? probably my fave song too. can't count how many times i played those chords over and over after figuring out how to play it. hehe, punk rock. phantasmagoria was the last tour of theirs i saw. i liked the songs they played but never bought the album. - -paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:07:58 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies In a message dated 11/27/01 6:29:42 PM, Mark Bursa writes: >14lb = 1stone > >Americans! hehe, thanks mark. now back to the frank black question then...20 stone!!!!? for real?? he's kinda short so that's not good... if true. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:14:23 -0500 (EST) From: space_bandits@webtv.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned Hi all: My name is Sean from Pittsburgh, Wire fan since about '83 I guess. I just joined last night and have been reading to see if I'll fit in around here. "Phantasmagoria" is a GREAT Damned album. Got it on vinyl when it came out with the bonus 12" of 'Eloise' (if my memory serves me well). Too bad most of my old vinyl is no more...:-( I like the Damned's 'neo-goth' era more than I actually (these days anyway) like their early punk stuff. It was a very funny and well-played album. I have it on tape now, need to get that on cd one of these days. Sean >np: Public Image Ltd. "First Issue" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:15:18 -0600 From: "Heather ." Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) The definite hightlights of "Phantasmagoria" are "Grimly Fiendish" and "Shadow of Love." Though it is a bit odd to go from the "Damned Damned Damned" to the heavy keyboard use of "Phatasmagoria", but I love both albums. I think part of the staying power of the Damned, is that they evolved and changed over time, not unlike Wire ;) I remember reading an interview with Vampira where she said she loved how she was portrayed on the "Plan 9 Channel 7" video. Has anyone seen it? Is this a weird memory glitch in my mind? Okay, I'll stop before I get silly. - -Heather > >probably my fave song too. can't count how many times i played those chords >over and over after figuring out how to play it. hehe, punk rock. >phantasmagoria was the last tour of theirs i saw. i liked the songs they >played but never bought the album. > >-paul _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:18:13 -0500 (EST) From: space_bandits@webtv.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned I agree that 'Grimly Fiendish' and 'Shadow Of Love' are the best tracks off of the album. Can't believe I forgot to mention that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:22:15 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies eardrumbuzz wrote:>14lb = 1stone > >Americans! Hey,it's not our fault we still live in the dark ages,we still have inches,feet and miles over here!Ari btw,if this gets posted,can anyone explain why some ofmy postings didn't? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:25:47 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Fwd: Re: [idealcopy] Cool as Kim Deal, correction - --- Ari Britt wrote: > Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:08:39 -0800 (PST) > From: Ari Britt > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Cool as Kim Deal, > correction > To: "bartvandamme@home" > > Bart wrote: > > > Crazy text e-mail software... > > > > Replace "jointto" with "joint to" in my previous > message... > > > > (It looked fine in the outgoing mail folder - > honest!) > > > Maybe you were smoking siamese joints.Ari > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, > just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:27:53 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Fwd: Re: [idealcopy] COMMERCIAL SUICIDE ON CD - --- Ari Britt wrote: > Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:44:15 -0800 (PST) > From: Ari Britt > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] COMMERCIAL SUICIDE ON CD > To: Phillip Blakeney > > If anyone's interested I have 4 of colins c.d's and > a > 5th(bastard) on the way,if anyone wants a copy..Ari > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, > just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:28:12 -0600 From: "Heather ." Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned Greetings Sean! Allright another "Phantasmagoria" fan! :) I like the Damned's earlier stuff, but I listen to the early-mid 80's aka neo-goth period more. I'm not sure who did the re-mix but there is a great remix of "Grimly Fiendish" called "Bad Trip Mix". It even has a Peter Lorre touch in it. Sadly, I don't have any Damned vinyl yet, though I do have the Kidney Bingos maxi-single, which is a stroke of luck. (Especially with that being one of my favorite all time Wire songs.) Welcome to the group Sean. - -Heather >From: space_bandits@webtv.net >To: idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned >Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:14:23 -0500 (EST) > >Hi all: > My name is Sean from Pittsburgh, Wire fan since about '83 I guess. >I just joined last night and have been reading to see if I'll fit in >around here. >"Phantasmagoria" is a GREAT Damned album. Got it on vinyl when it came >out with the bonus 12" of 'Eloise' (if my memory serves me well). >Too bad most of my old vinyl is no more...:-( >I like the Damned's 'neo-goth' era more than I actually (these days >anyway) like their early punk stuff. It was a very funny and well-played >album. I have it on tape now, need to get that on cd one of these days. > Sean > > >np: Public Image Ltd. "First Issue" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:37:16 -0500 (EST) From: space_bandits@webtv.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned Thank you much Heather, the warm welcome is appreciated :-) Yes the remix you were referring to is on the tape I have, interesting! Sean ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:38:54 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) In a message dated 11/27/01 5:20:19 PM Central Standard Time, ultratwist@hotmail.com writes: > I am no familiar with Spear of Destiny, but unfortunately, their > > name reminds me of the band Gleaming Spires, whose big "hit" was > > "Are You Ready for the Sex Girls?". Apparently, that song is still a > > big hit at some strip clubs. > > -Heather > hey! wasn't that song in the film "Revenge of the Nerds" ???!!!! hahahahahahhaa great movie! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 19:42:35 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-frank black vs. pixies In a message dated 11/27/01 6:22:58 PM Central Standard Time, luvjazzz@yahoo.com writes: > eardrumbuzz wrote:>14lb = 1stone > > > >Americans! > Hey,it's not our fault we still live in the dark > ages,we still have inches,feet and miles over here!Ari > btw,if this gets posted,can anyone explain why some > ofmy postings didn't? > uh one would think that "stone" is just as archaic of a measurement as lbs....hmmm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:46:59 -0600 From: "Heather ." Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned spear of destiny-uh (no fall content) Unfortunately Robert, that terrible Gleaming Spires song was in "Revenge of the Nerds." Though I think the film is definately redeemed by the zen-like wisdom of Booger. What's weird, is that apparently Sparks did some sort of collaboration/production work with the GS. Now I'm actually a pretty big fan of Sparks, so it is sort of dissapointing that the are in any way connected to a band that sang "Are you ready for the sex girls?" - -Heather >hey! wasn't that song in the film "Revenge of the Nerds" ???!!!! >hahahahahahhaa >great movie! >Robert _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:18:44 -0800 From: Francis Subject: [idealcopy] OT-damned X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <3C047363.546904F3@total.net> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:17:22 -0800 From: Francis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [fr] (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: space_bandits@webtv.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned References: <26089-3C042D45-7552@storefull-611.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's so funny. I've listened to Machine Gun Etiquette yesterday and now it's a new topic on the list. The album was as great as ever. My fave songs are Melody Lee and Smash it Up. MGE is my favorite album and I think you have to be a really conservative close minded punk to say that Damned Damned Damned is better (even though it is really good. Just not as good and diversified). I'm not familiar with the 80's albums (like Phantasmagoria). I'm really scared I'll be disappointed. So I don't touch 'em. Maybe I should. Anyway. There's a song on the Burning Ambition compilation called Dozen Girls which contains a lot of keyboard, but still is very, very good. Anyone knows which era and album this song is from?? Finally, I've seen the Damned about 1 1/2 month ago in Montreal. It was really good. They played mostly new stuff (which is ok and punk rock enough) but also classics like Neat Neat Neat and Smash it Up. At the end of the show, the Captain was plain naked and it was really chaotic and fucked up. Cheers, Francis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:36:31 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: and back again Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned In a message dated 11/27/01 9:24:31 PM, francisd@total.net writes: >I've seen the Damned about 1 1/2 month ago in Montreal. It was >really good. They played mostly new stuff (which is ok and punk rock >enough) but also classics like Neat Neat Neat and Smash it Up. At the >end >of the show, the Captain was plain naked and it was really chaotic and >fucked up. and mark e smith is still fiddling with the guitar amps on stage.... so how long has colin been doing that swim dance? ;o) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:27:51 -0500 (EST) From: space_bandits@webtv.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-PiL Hi Brian: "First Edition" is actually an excellent album. It got panned at the time I think because it wasn't Pistols. It was pointing the way to "Metal Box" with some dissonant eruptions and some surface-sloppy improvisations. Plus, it was quite anti-papal, which was pretty dark at that time. Very interesting. I think you should check it out. I don't know nearly as much about The Fall although I always liked them. Nice to make your acquaintance and thanks for the welcome. Sean >np: Hawkwind "In Your Area" Received: from smtpin-101-4.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.29) by storefull-617.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by smtpin-101-4.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) id AD05C1CF; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:17:19 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: space_bandits@webtv.net Received: from hotmail.com (f122.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.122]) by smtpin-101-4.bryant.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 81B811FF for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:17:18 -0800 Received: from 63.23.86.236 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 05:17:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.23.86.236] From: "Brian Young" To: space_bandits@webtv.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:17:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Nov 2001 05:17:18.0519 (UTC) FILETIME=[F3307470:01C177CB] Hi Sean- So, how is First Edition? I never got it because it was so short. Worth hearing? I mean, I know the song Public Image, but beyond that, what's the verdict? And can anyone recommend a couple of more Fall albums? I only have "Live at the Witch Trials" and "Dragnet". Welcome, Sean! Brian _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 04:04:26 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-damned i saw the damned twice. once was on the tour to promote "dozen girls" , which was a single around the time of the black album (82-ish). that was an excellent gig (with the captain) , supported by the anti-nowhere league. all very silly and superficial but very good fun. the captains trousers lasted maybe 2 songs which i gather was about typical. later i saw them in the "eloise" era and they cranked out a boring set of boring music like they were just doing it for the cash. horrible stuff. i've always hated just about everything brian james ever did (except maybe the first couple of damned singles). i heard "music for pleasure" a couple of weeks ago , with nick mason proving who had the talent in pink floyd pretty conclusively. theatre of hate morphed into SOD pretty seamlessly , with SOD just really a more commercial version of the same thing. but whereas TOH had a couple of really good songs , i can't think of much memorable by SOD. however , i'm pretty sure kirk never wrote many songs about sex girls. p ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #361 *******************************