From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #353 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, November 20 2001 Volume 04 : Number 353 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] This is not the Graeme Rowland list [kevin eden ] [idealcopy] FINAL FINAL SET SALE - PRICE REDUCTIONS!! [kevin eden ] Re: [idealcopy] ot:tate ["bartvandamme@home" ] Re: [idealcopy] ot:tate [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] OK, I'm over it, but some final words on the subject: [Michae] Re: [idealcopy] ot:tate ["bartvandamme@home" ] Re: [idealcopy] RIGHT CLASS, DISCUSS. [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] RIGHT CLASS, DISCUSS. ["bartvandamme@home" ] Re: [idealcopy] wire video [giluz ] [idealcopy] Re: [Way OT) Opinions ["Jerry" ] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] old and in the way [bartvanDamme ] Re: [idealcopy] wire video [bartvanDamme ] Re: [idealcopy] RIGHT CLASS, DISCUSS. [MrSodium@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] wire video [bartvanDamme ] Re: [idealcopy] OK, I'm over it, but some final words on the subject: [CH] Re: [idealcopy] wire video [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] a few Wire questions for everyone [Andrew Westmeyer ] Re: [idealcopy] CD-Rs and The Wire Page [bartvanDamme ] Re: [idealcopy] we meet section 25 under tables [bartvanDamme Subject: [idealcopy] This is not the Graeme Rowland list I gather that Tim Robinson is not one of Graeme's top fans. "Lets not idolise the lad! He's just a dude in an anorak, with a rented room in Whalley Range, a vast collection of outsider music, his own fanzine/website, and an opinion on everything! If he's guilty of anything its that he doesn't listen to *people* as much as he does to music.....and if you meet him you'll know what I mean. (Get him drunk however, and he does however do a wicked impersonation of Mark E Smith.)" I had the 'pleasure' of being interviewed by Graeme for Wireviews and found some of his questions, shall we say, off the mark and if he had an opinion to throw in he would. I was constantly having to retrace my thread to get to the point of the question he asked. Very frustrating. Unfortunately, Greame is not a very good listener but a very good talker. Apart from that he has enthusiasm or 'idiot glee' as Brian Eno puts it. Which for me is rare these days. I hope he comes back to IC and entertains us with his rants. ===== kevin eden wmo limited, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk e-mail: wmouk@yahoo.com web: www.wiremailorder.com "dreams that money can buy" Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:02:18 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] serious drinking i have a really crappy tape of SD's medley of 12XU/Bobby Moore Is Innocent. anyone got the album this came off and could copy it , or even tell me what album it was on? always made me laugh..... p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:12:11 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] CN interview >>>OK folks. Imagine the scenario. You've been asked to interview Colin Newman for Wireviews. The man himself is in front of you. So you ask this question. Every Wire fan is hanging on every word of the interview hoping to gain some insight into what the next Wire LP might be like. So you ask this question. "GR: Is the next Wire album likely to get a vinyl release?"<<< To be fair to Graeme, the whole point of that interview was to gain an insight into posteverything.com, not the new Wire album. Wire is being quite secretive about the contents of the new release and doubtless it's changed massively from the stuff I heard earlier in the year (which was pretty good, and totally unlike any other Wire). I doubt Colin would have let much slip about the contents of the disc, at least not more than you've already seen elsewhere. I imagine that closer to the time of release, Wire will offer some comments on the album. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 04:05:34 -0800 (PST) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] FINAL FINAL SET SALE - PRICE REDUCTIONS!! ask for list at it shall be yours ===== kevin eden wmo limited, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk e-mail: wmouk@yahoo.com web: www.wiremailorder.com "dreams that money can buy" Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:31:31 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot:tate Bart,: << Yes, I would welcome that! They played galleries before didn't they? I know Lewis/Gilbert did... but also with all four? >> The comeback gig in 1985 was in the Museum of Modern Art in Oxford, in the main gallery space. With all the lights on. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 06:26:41 -0800 (PST) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] RIGHT CLASS, DISCUSS. Ok found this from Brian Eno. Any thoughts? "Looking back in 20 years, it'll be very obvious that computer music had a particular flavor, just like music of the 1960s with the wah-wah pedal. It will have the sound of its technology: unfunky, overfussy and dead as stone." ===== kevin eden wmo limited, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk e-mail: wmouk@yahoo.com web: www.wiremailorder.com "dreams that money can buy" Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:38:52 +0100 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot:tate > The comeback gig in 1985 was in the Museum of Modern Art in Oxford, in the > main gallery space. With all the lights on. Cool!!! Jeeez, I did'nt even know that! [blush] Is it availlable on video? Cheers, Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl icq: 106821124 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:54:27 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot:tate Bart, << Cool!!! Jeeez, I did'nt even know that! [blush] Is it availlable on video? >> Never seen it, though it was professionally video'd on the night. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:36:16 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] OK, I'm over it, but some final words on the subject: >From: Tim >Subject: [idealcopy] This is not the Graeme Rowland list! >Anyway, what I'm trying to say is stop mourning the loss of Graeme, and for >gods sake don't do what Michael has done and threaten to leave the list. Oh, for god's sake, no. Actually, mine was more a comment than a threat. It's not as if anyone can make him come back. Also, I have no illusions that I contribute enough to use my departure in such a manner. I don't intend to leave so much as I don't expect to be as interested--just read 3 digests in about 6 minutes. >If you don't like the way the discussion is going....*Start a new, more >intersting topic*. One of my most "fond" memories of this list is the time (pre-Graeme) I wrote a fairly in depth post on the gilbertstengerposs cd. I got a very nice "thank you" off-list from Kevin. No one else cared. This brings me to: >So Graeme is gone. There are probably lots of interesting people on this >list who don't speak up.....Well come on! Nows yer chance! > >And what was so great about Graeme anyway? That he is genuinely interesting person for whom music is still discovery, not nostolgic memory. >Check this out: No, check this out instead: among those who wrote Graeme asking him to return: Colin Newman. I guess he didn't find his interview quite so terrible. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:33:52 +0100 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot:tate >>Cool!!! >> Jeeez, I did'nt even know that! [blush] > >Is it availlable on video? >> > Never seen it, though it was professionally video'd on the night. > Mark I want it! 8-/ Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl icq: 106821124 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:34:49 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RIGHT CLASS, DISCUSS. It will > have the sound of its technology: unfunky, overfussy > and dead as stone." > /////like ultravox then? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:43:51 +0100 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RIGHT CLASS, DISCUSS. > Ok found this from Brian Eno. Any thoughts? > > "Looking back in 20 years, it'll be very obvious that > computer music had a particular flavor, just like > music of the 1960s with the wah-wah pedal. It will > have the sound of its technology: unfunky, overfussy > and dead as stone." Did Eno write this 20 years ago? Must have, cos the computer does NOT have a particular sound. Anything is possible and the most funky tunes certainly come from computers nowadays! Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl icq: 106821124 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:21:09 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire video I've said it before and I'll say it again: one of the best things Wire could do is to release some video footage. There is so little that is officially available - I only know of the Mute singles promos, that Dome thing off of the Grey Area vid, the Snub interview, Bruce's Birthday Drill on MTV, and the Rockplast set. There must be a lot of stuff sitting in boxes under Robert's tomato plants. This stuff would probably be of dubious quality but I for one wouldn't care. Anyone else? John - --- "bartvandamme@home" wrote: > >>Cool!!! > >> Jeeez, I did'nt even know that! [blush] > > >Is it availlable on video? >> > > > Never seen it, though it was professionally > video'd on the night. > > > Mark > > > I want it! 8-/ > > > Bart > > www.bartvandamme.com > bartvandamme@home.nl > icq: 106821124 Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:13:15 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire video on 11/19/01 7:21 PM, John Roberts at johnroberts_stats@yahoo.com wrote: > I've said it before and I'll say it again: one of the > best things Wire could do is to release some video > footage. There is so little that is officially > available - I only know of the Mute singles promos, > that Dome thing off of the Grey Area vid, the Snub > interview, Bruce's Birthday Drill on MTV, and the > Rockplast set. There must be a lot of stuff sitting > in boxes under Robert's tomato plants. This stuff > would probably be of dubious quality but I for one > wouldn't care. Anyone else? Just the thought of all the people that have the rights to these makes my head ache - from EMI to Beggars Banquet and Mute, and where does that leave programmes like Rockpalast and other TV appearances? If it's even possible, I believe that it's gonna be extremely hard to assemble all the material into a legal official release. A kind of project WMO could perhaps do (or maybe not - maybe they already looked into it in the past - Kevin?). As to Wire, I said it before: They should concentrate on finishing the new album. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:25:42 -0000 From: "Jerry" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: [Way OT) Opinions No, of course I haven't but it got a reaction didn't it? What Sonic Youth I have heard has not encouraged me to want to hear more and I can't believe two of the more valuable contributors to this list should have fallen out so spectacularly whilst discussing them. It's a pity that someone of Graeme's obvious insight and intellect should find it necessary to resort to personal abuse and I, for one, tended to agree with Mileta more often than not. That said BOTH are fans of Sonic Youth so what do I know. Simple Minds count as 80s pop. So do Sonic Youth. So do Wire. All these also count as so much more. It's just not worth letting "criticism" of your fave band get to you especially through a medium as public, unregulated and glorious as the internet. But that's just my opinion and I'll shut up now...I just want them both back j - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:11 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Opinions > In a message dated 11/15/01 6:47:13 AM, fleamusic@totalise.co.uk writes: > > >All Sonic Youth sucks. That's my opinion... > > wow. certainly, EVERYONE is entitled to his/her own opinion, but i'm curious > if you've heard all sonic youth. i'm a fan and haven't even heard all of it. > is your opinion based on hearing early 80's, mid-late 80's, and 90's-present > sy recordings? just curious. > > -paul c.d. > > now playing: bad moon rising - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.298 / Virus Database: 161 - Release Date: 13/11/01 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:22:27 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] old and in the way > Most rock peformers descend into self parody after they turn 27- Jagger, > Bowie, and Dylan (uh oh) in the forefront. Aging gracefully and "rock music" > are incompatible. > Those that avoid parody either become MOR (Clapton, Ferry, etc) or follow > their own "post rock" path: Zappa, Fripp. So in your opinion in R&R there's nothing but misery after 27! That's a bit harsh innit? When we think about blues or jazz there's nothing but old geezers around! How come rock seems to be so intolerant when it comes to age? Bart bartvandamme@home.nl www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:31:57 -0000 From: "Jerry" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire video There's a label named NMC http://www.n-m-c.co.uk/ a large proportion of whose output appears to consist of archive Rockpalast recordings. Maybe a large number of well-aimed e-mails to them would not go amiss... j - ----- Original Message ----- From: "giluz" To: "John Roberts" ; "bartvandamme@home" ; "wire-news" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire video > on 11/19/01 7:21 PM, John Roberts at johnroberts_stats@yahoo.com wrote: > > > I've said it before and I'll say it again: one of the > > best things Wire could do is to release some video > > footage. There is so little that is officially > > available - I only know of the Mute singles promos, > > that Dome thing off of the Grey Area vid, the Snub > > interview, Bruce's Birthday Drill on MTV, and the > > Rockplast set. There must be a lot of stuff sitting > > in boxes under Robert's tomato plants. This stuff > > would probably be of dubious quality but I for one > > wouldn't care. Anyone else? > > > Just the thought of all the people that have the rights to these makes my > head ache - from EMI to Beggars Banquet and Mute, and where does that leave > programmes like Rockpalast and other TV appearances? If it's even possible, > I believe that it's gonna be extremely hard to assemble all the material > into a legal official release. A kind of project WMO could perhaps do (or > maybe not - maybe they already looked into it in the past - Kevin?). > > As to Wire, I said it before: They should concentrate on finishing the new > album. > > giluz > - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.298 / Virus Database: 161 - Release Date: 13/11/01 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:31:44 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire video John wrote: > I've said it before and I'll say it again: one of the > best things Wire could do is to release some video > footage. There is so little that is officially > available - I only know of the Mute singles promos, > that Dome thing off of the Grey Area vid, the Snub > interview, Bruce's Birthday Drill on MTV, and the > Rockplast set. There must be a lot of stuff sitting > in boxes under Robert's tomato plants. > This stuff > would probably be of dubious quality but I for one > wouldn't care. Anyone else? Count me in! In the more than 20 years I've known them I've haven't ever seen any Wire-stuff on tv or video. This has got to stop! Bart bartvandamme@home.nl www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:49:38 EST From: MrSodium@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RIGHT CLASS, DISCUSS. > Ok found this from Brian Eno. Any thoughts? > > "Looking back in 20 years, it'll be very obvious that > computer music had a particular flavor, just like > music of the 1960s with the wah-wah pedal. It will > have the sound of its technology: unfunky, overfussy > and dead as stone." I guess it depends on what he calls "computer music," but it's fair to say that I think his head must be in close proximity to his bung right about now. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Lively is not a term that fairly describes any Eno release since "King's Lead Hat." Funky? "Fractal Zoom," anyone? "Ali Click?" Hahahaha. Bwian should know better. The qualities of the performance are in direct proportion to the merits of the artist, regardless of the medium. It's the artist, not the paintbrush, that makes the picture pretty. Neverwhere was an excellent read. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:55:03 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire video > Just the thought of all the people that have the rights to these makes my > head ache - from EMI to Beggars Banquet and Mute, and where does that leave > programmes like Rockpalast and other TV appearances? If it's even possible, > I believe that it's gonna be extremely hard to assemble all the material > into a legal official release. A kind of project WMO could perhaps do (or > maybe not - maybe they already looked into it in the past - Kevin?). > > As to Wire, I said it before: They should concentrate on finishing the new > album. > > giluz Perhaps it is time for a proper documentary about Wire. A real tv programme! Anyone on the list maybe? Or has it been done allready? A documentary is always easier when it comes to rights... [just put the bastards in the credits] Bart bartvandamme@home.nl www.bartvandamme.com PS BTW, some 10 years ago my brother, for his multimedia-studies, made a sort of video-clip mixing Wire's King of Ur & Queen of Um with pieces of D.W. Griffith's "Intolerance" [the egyptian ones]. The result was quite wonderfull and mesmerizing. I should still have it around somewhere... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:01:41 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OK, I'm over it, but some final words on the subject: In a message dated 19/11/01 15:30:54 GMT Standard Time, mflaher3@triton.cc.il.us writes: > One of my most "fond" memories of this list is the time (pre-Graeme) I > wrote a fairly in depth post on the gilbertstengerposs cd. I got a very > nice "thank you" off-list from Kevin. No one else cared. I read it & I cared ...& then I bought the CD from Kevin Eden ! So belatedly thanks ! Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:06:26 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire video In a message dated 19/11/01 16:22:14 GMT Standard Time, johnroberts_stats@yahoo.com writes: > Wire could do is to release some video > footage. There is so little that is officially > available - Uri did sell a pretty good compilation tape lasting 3 hours or so of all Wires video releases,the Rockpalast show shown at QE Hall & other 80"s bits of Wire including a WIR concert.I haven't watched it in a while.It cost me 25 quid or so. But it is excellent when you need that Wire fix !!! He may still do copies. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 13:06:12 -0800 (PST) From: Andrew Westmeyer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] a few Wire questions for everyone - --- RLynn9@aol.com wrote: > Does anybody out there own the He Said 12" for Watch Take Care? I have an original cassette promo with 3 versions of WTC. They all sound pretty much the same. It's listed in the "bootlegs" section of the Wire Page. > also, Does anyone know why the EAR/Trumpet lp was never > reissued on cd for Wire completists? I've transferred this to CDR - the next best thing to a CD reissue! It's really a good album. > also, what do most ideal copyists consider the rarest Wire > related item? I've got the "Live at the Roxy" 2LP, autographed by all 4. That's probably my most treasured item. Others are rarer. But I'll never forget the faces of B, G, R, & C when they first looked at the item I had asked them to sign! ===== Andrew Westmeyer anw7pima@yahoo.com Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:03:08 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] a few Wire questions for everyone In a message dated 19/11/01 21:07:53 GMT Standard Time, anw7pima@yahoo.com writes: > I've got the "Live at the Roxy" 2LP, autographed by all 4. That's > probably my most treasured item. Others are rarer. But I'll never > forget the faces of B, G, R, & C when they first looked at the item I > had asked them to sign! > > > I think that's rare enough.When did you get them to sign it ? Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:25:30 -0500 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: [idealcopy] CD-Rs and The Wire Page The new G4s have arrived and I'm starting to burn Cds with iTunes--this is all very exciting--and I'm wondering: are there opinions here regarding blank CD-Rs? Are any considered better than others? I miss The Wire Page. Does anyone know whether it's down temporarily or permanently? Andrew, are you there? Robert (who, turned 45 October 29th and is hoping I'm not the oldest geezer on the list.) *************************************************************** This message is intended only for the use of the individuals to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this transmission in error; any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmission is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message and all of its attachments. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:57:28 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OK, I'm over it, but some final words on the subject: Michale wrote: << That he is genuinely interesting person for whom music is still discovery, not nostolgic memory. >> the Esteemed Mr Eno pomped: <<"Looking back in 20 years, it'll be very obvious that computer music had a particular flavor, just like music of the 1960s with the wah-wah pedal. It will have the sound of its technology: unfunky, overfussy and dead as stone." >> Interesting comments on the relationship between music and its time. I think in a way Bri's right. History suggests it is very difficult to achieve a "timeless" quality to music made at the cutting edge of technology. There is a tendency for such music to date more obviously than music made with a "mature" technology. This is why 154, for example sounds fresher to me than The first letter. TFL has the indelible datestamp late 80s/early 90s electronica. 154 sounds like the future, still. He's probably right about much of the current generation of laptop prodders. But give it time and the possibilities begin to be revealed. Take someone like Silo as a starting point, not a conclusion. Maybe I'm getting Michael wrong here, but surely there's more to looking back at music made some time ago - even much-derided "80s pop" - with more than just nostalgia? I didn't own any Can albums until the mid-90s, for example, so I hardly feel nostalgia for the '69 Cologne scene whene I play them now. Personally I've been compelled to listen to more "old" rather than "new" music of late due to the poor general standard of new material, notwithstanding the occasional excellent recommendations here. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:06:06 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] we meet section 25 under tables hi folks, listening to d&e today, i noticed for the first time a strong similarity between we meet under tables and the song sakura by section 25. it seems section 25 may have been listening to a bit of wire before writing the lyrics to that one. i admit "where to go what to do, etc.." isn't too far a stretch to be coincidental, but there is a similarity beyond just the words. interesting...to me at least. - -paul c.d. (also realising this is the first time he's listened to d&e 3 days in a row) p.s. hi again mark ;o) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:19:11 +0100 From: Bart Subject: FW: [idealcopy] art & money Giluz wrote: > OK - now we're getting somewhere: You admit the big companies represent the > mutinationals and that anyone who chooses to sign up with them has to pay > the price. Ususally the price is: no big surprises, play it safe - no > innovation. How many artists that made it big chose to go over to an > independent company then? This just proves my point: They all chose to play > the game by the rules of the big corporations. Some do yeah... who needs 'm? > I'm not talking about obscurity, I'm talking about innovation. Pop is just a > definition that describes works of art sold and advertised as commodity > products in a duplicated form. This definition takes into account > everything, from Julian Cope's self-promoted and self-distributed products > to Britney Spears' mega-corporate mechanism. Last I week I wrote about N.E.R.D. [or their producers name Neptunes] Two young american musicians producers who did some some productionwork for mega-act as Kelis, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Jay-Z, Mystikal and even Britney Spears. In their "own time" however they create these quite weird hip-pop tunes. I like this relaxed attitude towards the mainstream a lot. It's not like a sellout - it's just that the old barrieres between mainstream & indie [or between the high arts & low] just aren't there anymore. In my view the post-postmodern times we live in ask of us a different approach towards what is exciting and innovative. Personally I find it in the strangest places and not only between the defined walls of indie-music. > As to mainstream, a more adequate definition, it did have some things to > offer in the past. Even prog-rockers were more innovative than what's going > on in the mainstream today. There are less chances and opportunities for art > statements to become significant and have any kind of influence - one has to > have the backup of big money for this, but one has to pay the price which > cancels out any meaningful purpose you once had. My advice: Create your own label! > And things have been different in the 60's: The Beatles changed into suits > when they were still struggling and didn't even have a record deal. After > they made it big they were allowed to do almost everything they wanted > (musically), if only because there were no record executives that understood > what was going on in the pop music field. Of course it would have been > different if they didn't sell that much, but today the system would not even > let this kind of freedom happen. The executives control and create the > market. They would never admit to not understanding it. You're right. And of coarse in the 60's there were lots of possibilities. The "rules" weren't set yet. My hope is set on younger people who don't give a shit about whatever rules there are, and just create there own world [and music] A thing such as punk happens "over and over" again. If such a youthculture is swallowed up by the corporates it is just the way things go. We saw it from Elvis onwards [and even earlier] If the beast is tamed another one will appear. Clinging on is no option [as clinging on to ones own youth is also no option] > And corporations grew significantly bigger in the last 10 years, with all > these mergers, that you can't say it's the same situation as we always had > in the past. Even indies have to pay the price. Do you think Wire couldn't > sign a deal with Mute or any other "respectable" indie? Why did they go into > the bother of forming their own label if the indies would have given them > the same level of artistic freedom? Cheers to Wire for forming their own label! I think Indies have a limited lifespan and that's ok with me. If they go on long enough they get to be established themselves, don't they? > Basically, I'm not a materialist. It's just that the current situation is > very materialistic. We're at a point in time where capitalism returned to > where it's been a hundred years ago, with corporations monopolising the > marketplace. True... but with the internet there are also huge posibillities for artists to create their own community and marketplace. The infrastructure is there for the biggest revolution the music-industry. People have to be inventive enough to turn it to their advantage though. Then the corporates will be really shitting themselves. > Psychology is just good for accounting for the individual and would never > give a sound explanation of the way society works. When Graeme dissed Freud > a few days ago he meant that psychoanalysis was too dominant in the popular > discourse. We psychoanalyse everything, but you can't psychoanalyse a > society. You'd have to use a more suitable theory for that. Why can't you psychoanalyse a society? It just a micro/macro difference isn't it? I think all patterns in society start with the human behaviour. > As for philosophy - this is too big a word. What kind of philosophy do you > mean? My philosophy, described above, is neo-marxist. What did you have in > mind when you were referring to philosophy? Look, every sane person knows the "ways-of-the-west" and it's big corporations is making this world mindnumbingly boring. Thing is, it is allowed by a majority of the population. The majority don't want revolutions, innovation... [don't want Wire!] But do you believe in educating the masses as Marx did, Giluz? I certainly don't [anymore]. And what's so neo about Marxism? I sympathized with the marxist movement for a long time and I still believe they've got their heart in the right place, but as a system it just doesn't work. We tried it... it failed... now let's move on to something else. Maybe I just lost the "R" in Revolution somewhere along the way... I'd like to look at philosophy as a range of posibilities to look at life. I don't want to pin myself down to only one dish [though I have do have my favourite dishes of course] In our society I recognize a lot of what Schopenhauer said about the generations: In time each generation is turning into previous one. Therefor nothing really changes, it's just a different package. Translating this to the music industry I think there will always be a market, even if it is just as small niche, for exciting and innovating music. Cheers, Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl icq: 106821124 And if you call me brother now, forgive me if I inquire, "Just according to whose plan?" [Leonard Cohen] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:37:27 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] CD-Rs and The Wire Page Robert wrote: > The new G4s have arrived and I'm starting to burn Cds with iTunes--this is > all very exciting--and I'm wondering: are there opinions here regarding > blank CD-Rs? Are any considered better than others? Ah... always nice to find fellow mac-users. [I heard Colin only works with g4's nowadays - smart man] Can you also burn with iTunes? I allways use Toast for it. Lately I have tried lots of different brands CDR's and it all worked out pretty well, so my advice is to take the cheaper ones. I'm still looking for a cd-sticker device - nicer than ugly marker-writing. Enjoy! Bart bartvandamme@home.nl www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:45:32 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire video Chris wrote: >Uri did sell a pretty good compilation tape lasting 3 hours or so of all Wires >video releases,the Rockpalast show shown at QE Hall & other 80"s bits of Wire >including a WIR concert.I haven't watched it in a while.It cost me 25 quid or >so. But it is excellent when you need that Wire fix !!! >He may still do copies. I forgot all about this. I contacted Uri about the tape more than a year ago. He told me it was that expensive because of the mastering. Guess I was a little short back then. Thnx for reminding me. Bart bartvandamme@home.nl www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:57:24 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] we meet section 25 under tables Paul wrote: > listening to d&e today, i noticed for the first time a strong similarity > between we meet under tables and the song sakura by section 25. it seems > section 25 may have been listening to a bit of wire before writing the lyrics > to that one. i admit "where to go what to do, etc.." isn't too far a stretch > to be coincidental, but there is a similarity beyond just the words. > interesting...to me at least. I don't know Sakura by Section 25 [online anywhere?] but I know We meet under Tables was always one of my favs. Hypnotizing! Bart bartvandamme@home.nl www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 09:32:31 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] a few Wire questions for everyone >>> also, Does anyone know why the EAR/Trumpet lp was never > reissued on cd for Wire completists? I've transferred this to CDR - the next best thing to a CD reissue! It's really a good album. Erm, what is this ear/trumpet lp thing ? A ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 10:26:01 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] cd-r's and the wire page >>Robert (who, turned 45 October 29th and is hoping I'm not the oldest geezer on the list.) Not so, by some margin, young fellow... A (Who's age is equal to the average age of a member of Wire) ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #353 *******************************