From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #349 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, November 16 2001 Volume 04 : Number 349 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] TATE ["bartvandamme@home" ] FW: [idealcopy] Opinions ["bartvandamme@home" ] [idealcopy] Wireviews issues/Hox [Wireviews ] Re: [idealcopy] Art and commerce, again; [John Roberts ] [idealcopy] ot:klf [Alistair Tear ] [idealcopy] Number Six! Why did you Resign? [timrobinson@cwcom.net] [idealcopy] ot:tate [Alistair Tear ] Re: [idealcopy] the idealcopy is what you want? ["bartvandamme@home" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re:Eno/list departures [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] ot:klf [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Number Six! Why did you Resign? [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] ot:tate [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: KLF [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Art and commerce, again; [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: KLF [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Art and commerce, again; [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] D&E [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Eno's Neverwhere [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] art & money [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] hmmm ... ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] hmmm ... [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Number Six! Why did you Resign? ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] [idealcopy] ON-topic! 2000 Seattle show [Miles Goosens ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: KLF [bartvanDamme ] Re: [idealcopy] hmmm ... ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] hmmm ... [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Modern English [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Modern English ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] [OT, long] Momus [giluz ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:56:20 +0100 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] TATE Alistair wrote: > Brilliant building (former power station) > Crap art gallery I'm really curious... I saw a documentary about it... the building indeed looked great. Why do you think the collection is crap? Is it the exhibitions? [haven't seen it yet] Cheers, Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl icq: 106821124 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:04:49 +0100 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: FW: [idealcopy] Opinions >> All Sonic Youth sucks. That's my opinion... >> j > Hahaaaa... this list should be more like this: short & to the point! > Bart > www.bartvandamme.com > bartvandamme@home.nl > icq: 106821124 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 02:15:32 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Wireviews issues/Hox >> also, i can't seem to get the Wireviews webite to work on my computer << Is anyone else having problems? I know select releases of Netscape 4 on PC fail to load the site, but as only two out of seven versions of 4.x tested do this, it's not something that can easily be fixed. The V3 thing sometimes screws things up, so reset your bookmarks to www.wireviews.org As a wrning, the upcoming version will require a DOM-compliant browser in order to see everything as it should be. This includes Opera 5, Netscape 6 and IE 5+ along with most current builds of Mozilla. Direct link to the Wireviews news page is currently http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/w_intro.html >>some reason..so, does anyone know when the Hox cd is due and where will it be available from? Wireviews? Posteverything? WMO UK?<< It's due at some point in the future (same 'deadline' as Colin's latest) and will probably be available from WMO UK I would guess, although I imagine Kevin would confirm (or not) when/if the CD actually happens. C ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 02:39:26 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Art and commerce, again; > As for at least one of the departed, even the most > artfully presented insight > and knowledge fails to justify abusive conduct. > After all, a frosted dog > turd is not a birthday cake. I hear what you're saying Mr Sodium. Regards John Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:23:57 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re:Eno/list departures >A few years ago Eno composed the music for Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere >BBC >mini-series. Neil answered a faq on his site, www.neilgaiman.com, >saying >that excerpts from the soundtrack appear on Eno's last album. >Does anyone >know which album is that? >I just listened to the 9 Eno Neverwhere tracks, and I can't place any of >them as having shown up on a legitimate release. Although, being Eno, he >could have taken any of the tracks, sped them up or slowed them down, >processed them with effects, etc. After all, this is the man who allowed >Ultravox to use one of his tracks wholesale for their first album (the song >My Sex?) and then released it himself as something entirely different. When I've been in Rough Trade (cov garden) of late I always see limited edition CD Eno stuff - three or four of them - could it be on one of these? I have to say I don't pay them all that much attention. They seem to be art installation soundtracks, and after buying the Shutov Assembly some years back I don't really think I need anymore. There might be something on Enoweb. I'm very interested in the My Sex connection which makes perfect sense. I've always liked that track, either because of or in spite of the Foxxy one's very mannered vocals. Speaking of which (nearly), the Numan abuse has been highly enjoyable. You can add Fred Wedlock to the of independent label drivel. I'm sorry to hear about the departures from the list, even though some of the recent stuff from Graeme was very unedifying. Hope they both come back. I actually bought the Symptoms CD (Apathy) largely because Graeme said it pissed on anything Eno had ever done. I don't agree with him - I think it is completely different gravy - but it *is* worth having and I don't mind being wound up if I end up with good stuff to listen to. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:46:47 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] ot:klf >>Colin pointed out recently that Wire were lucky not to have had a hit single. I think that's exactly what he meant. I think Giluz makes a good point....earlier this year we had world music ponce peter gabriel speaking out agin napster, he's not short of a quid... & as (i think ) paul r mentioned, renowned prat & tree-hugger sting was on board *that* concorde flight... I think it's almost axiomatic that in music, to sell the most *product* means the content must be dilute, ephemeral & banal shame about graeme 'n mileta missing them already... cheers A 'free speech and more tv...' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:13:18 GMT From: timrobinson@cwcom.net Subject: [idealcopy] Number Six! Why did you Resign? Have I missed something?! Whats been going on with Graeme and Mileta? Mileta was serial-posting reams & reams of OT stuff which I tended to scroll past so I don't know much about hm. Then Graeme seems to be trashing him on list and now they both have un-subbed! I used to enjoy arguing the toss with Graeme! Maybe he should start a message board on his website then we can all go on there and argue with him instead of on here! So did they jump or were they pushed?!?!?! - ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:31:08 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] ot:tate bart axed: >>Why do you think the collection is crap? Is it the exhibitions? The problem is that it has a huge cathedral-like space which was the old turbine hall and they haven't got anything in there which really takes advantage of this space... the rest of the gallery is made up of a series of rather small side galleries...I wasn't commenting on the collection as such for that is in the eye of the beholder... However, when you come, you should be able to get there from the north side of the river across the (formerly) wibbley wobbly bridge, 'cos they reckon they've fixed it. btw it would be an ace space for our lads to do something in... A ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:02:47 +0100 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] the idealcopy is what you want? > - It's sometimes better to leave alone a thread you don't > like. As giluz pointed out a little while back, posts > about how you don't like this or that topic often end > up prolonging the discussion! See if the thread dies > before weighing in yourself. Because of me leaving alone a thread [or 2] I'm not completely sure of what happened exactly between Mileta & Graeme... They left themselves or were they kicked? Things turned out that ugly? I'm really sorry to hear that. What a shame! Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl icq: 106821124 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:44:08 +0100 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: KLF >> I would like the arts [incl. music] to be an exciting place of idea's and >> possibilities without always having to be bothered with it's place in the >> market. > > But its place in the market have an enormous influence on the content. Even > if you do still like REM after they've turned mega (or any other such band - > I'm just using them as an example), you'd have to admit their music since > then, as uncompromising as you think it might have been, did not introduce > new ideas and possibilities. So basically I don't care how much a person > earns as long as this doesn't influence the art. Since this is not the case > I think it is my concern. It just isn't possible for artists today not to > compromise when they get to that position. I don't buy this. A band starts to make money and suddenly they're music turns crap? I mean: lots of bands completely lose it, but one can contribute this to a number of reasons. It's just as easily said that musicians turn into boring farts because of old age, booze or bad marriages [or good ones for that matter] Blaming it all on the $$$ is too one-dimensional in my opinion. >> For example, would any ICers treat Wire any differently if they somehow >> would make lots of money? I would say: cheers to them! > There's nothing personal about it - I don't dis these artists on the ground > of making money. Lots of them worked hard for long years to get to where > they are today. The question is not how we would treat Wire if they turned > mega - the question is how would it influence their music. I guess well never going to find this out now would we, but I hope and guess that someone capable of making incredible works of art is somehow capable of resisting becoming a total twat. Perhaps this is a nice new thread? Who do you think resisted the demons of old-age or money ect.best. With me Tom Waits comes to mind. Perhaps David Bowie... > Colin pointed out recently that Wire were lucky not to have had a hit > single. I think that's exactly what he meant. > giluz I don't know what Colin meant of course, but I heard lots of people saying things like that - as if to make themselves comfortable with their positions. I would like to hear the context in wich these words were spoken. Cheers man! Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl icq: 106821124 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:58:11 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re:Eno/list departures In a message dated 11/16/01 5:35:15 AM Central Standard Time, hspencer@oup.co.uk writes: << 'm sorry to hear about the departures from the list, even though some of the recent stuff from Graeme was very unedifying. Hope they both come back. I actually bought the Symptoms CD (Apathy) largely because Graeme said it pissed on anything Eno had ever done. I don't agree with him - I think it is completely different gravy - but it *is* worth having and I don't mind being wound up if I end up with good stuff to listen to. Howard >> hahahahhaha, right on Howard! I agree... Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:00:01 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot:klf In a message dated 11/16/01 5:52:07 AM Central Standard Time, alistairtear@streetmanagement.org.uk writes: << paul r mentioned, renowned prat & tree-hugger sting was on board *that* concorde flight... >> ugh....Sting is a real prat isn't he?...He hasn't done anything worth a crap since Synchronicity now has he.... Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:01:30 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Number Six! Why did you Resign? nice "Prisoner" reference! I finally have all the episodes on tape! What a great show... Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:06:52 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot:tate > The problem is that it has a huge cathedral-like space > which was the old turbine hall and they haven't got anything > in there which really takes advantage of this space... ////// sounds like you'd need a really good band to play in there. hmmmm , now who might be suitable i wonder???? p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:08:55 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: KLF In a message dated 11/16/01 9:48:24 AM Central Standard Time, bartvandamme@home.nl writes: << Perhaps this is a nice new thread? Who do you think resisted the demons of old-age or money ect.best. With me Tom Waits comes to mind. Perhaps David Bowie... >> huh?!!! you really think so? hmmmm..why just the other day i saw Bowie in an interview and he was in the studio with Sean "Puffy" Combs...GIVE ME A DAMN BREAK DAVID!! Does he really need to jump the hip-hop bandwagon? Is he really that hungry for attention? money? Sheesh, he jumped the Drum and Bass bandwagon a couple of years back, and now this?but too bad that David Bowie hasn't put out a decent record since Scary Monsters, and i seriously doubt Puff Daddy is going to change that.....and he still feels the need to do the Hollywood party scene, which is always ugly to watch..an old guy trying to fight his age...ugh Robert Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:17:18 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Art and commerce, again; In a message dated 11/15/01 10:05:10 PM Central Standard Time, MrSodium@aol.com writes: << As for at least one of the departed, even the most artfully presented insight and knowledge fails to justify abusive conduct. After all, a frosted dog turd is not a birthday cake. >> ...uhhh..uhhh...interestingly put....nice one... Robert Lynn (who likes his birthday cake with no frosting so i can see exactly what i'm getting) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:18:28 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: KLF well he's been heading downwards for about 20 years but it could well be that a duet with (ahem) p-diddy might actually be the low spot of bowies pathetic recent career. don't start me off......p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:27:24 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Art and commerce, again; In a message dated 11/16/01 1:54:48 AM Central Standard Time, paulp@wrq.com writes: << I ordered Swim Team 1&2 directly from Posteverything.com, and got the CDs in record time. I highly recommend ordering direct from the posteverything.com website, if possible. >> I agree! POSTEVERYTHING IS GREAT! i live in the US and i ordered the Symptoms "Apathy" cd and the Lobe cd-r and recieved them in three days!!!!!! amazing! Robert Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:32:47 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] D&E In a message dated 11/15/01 7:32:37 AM Central Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: << I love D&E, and the album that would have resulted from those unreleased songs would have been astonishing. >> Yes, it would have! I just listened to it again last night (along with Turns and Strokes) and it would have been a great record.... Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:34:02 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Eno's Neverwhere In a message dated 11/15/01 11:40:07 AM Central Standard Time, raggedglory57@hotmail.com writes: << I just listened to the 9 Eno Neverwhere tracks, and I can't place any of them as having shown up on a legitimate release. Although, being Eno, he could have taken any of the tracks, sped them up or slowed them down, processed them with effects, etc. After all, this is the man who allowed Ultravox to use one of his tracks wholesale for their first album (the song My Sex?) and then released it himself as something entirely different. Brian >> What is the title of Eno version of My Sex????? Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 18:36:57 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] art & money on 11/16/01 6:44 PM, bartvandamme@home at bartvandamme@home.nl wrote: >> But its place in the market have an enormous influence on the content. Even >> if you do still like REM after they've turned mega (or any other such band - >> I'm just using them as an example), you'd have to admit their music since >> then, as uncompromising as you think it might have been, did not introduce >> new ideas and possibilities. So basically I don't care how much a person >> earns as long as this doesn't influence the art. Since this is not the case >> I think it is my concern. It just isn't possible for artists today not to >> compromise when they get to that position. > > I don't buy this. A band starts to make money and suddenly they're music > turns crap? I mean: lots of bands completely lose it, but one can contribute > this to a number of reasons. It's just as easily said that musicians turn > into boring farts because of old age, booze or bad marriages [or good ones > for that matter] Blaming it all on the $$$ is too one-dimensional in my > opinion. It's not the money that's the problem here - it's the system. It's the corporate companies which control the music industry that's the problem. It is customary to think that a musician that makes it big has the money and the position to have complete independence over his work. However, he is not the only one that gained profit from his position, and if he wants to maintain it he has to play by the rules of the system. All of the other factors that you mentioned certainly can (and do) contribute to an artist's decline, but I think it's not one-dimensional to place commercial success as a prime factor, especially if you look at the state of the music industry today, as opposed to, let's say, the 60's for example. I do believe that most innovations in art start in the margins and never in the mainstream, especially if you're talking about popular art, sold as commodity products. >> Colin pointed out recently that Wire were lucky not to have had a hit >> single. I think that's exactly what he meant. > >> giluz > > I don't know what Colin meant of course, but I heard lots of people saying > things like that - as if to make themselves comfortable with their > positions. I would like to hear the context in wich these words were spoken. It was in the totallyradio show of a few months ago - go to www.totallyradio.com and try to find it in the archive section (if it's still there - it was one of their daily shows, I don't remember exactly when), but I think my interpretaion of his words (also based on other stuff I heard him say in recent interviews) is correct here. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:20:05 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] hmmm ... drove in late last night from my home-to-be in alabama. while there, i (of course) dropped by a used-cd place & was intrigued to come across a copy (minus the 2nd disc, not surprisingly) of coatings. whether this bodes good or ill, i can't quite decide. most unusual thing i saw (& i had time for only about a 15-minute once-over before they closed) was a copy of the live import cd by the early '80s uk new romantic (sort of, i guess) band wasted youth. most aggravating thing i saw was at barnes & noble, where i grabbed a caramel frappucino (jesus, i'm becoming a yuppie -- buy a house in a nice neighborhood, consume beverages from starbuck ... next thing you know, i'll be shopping for minivans) & saw that the racks included the mojo issue *after* the 100-best-punk-singles ish. the latter, of course, *never* showed up here. damn. dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:02:23 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] hmmm ... Dan, << most unusual thing i saw (& i had time for only about a 15-minute once-over before they closed) was a copy of the live import cd by the early '80s uk new romantic (sort of, i guess) band wasted youth. >> More like trad rock Rolling Stones wannabes to be honest. Saw them in late 1980 at the legendary Dudley JBs. They had a song called Paris France, which is about as much as the memory banks can recall, though I may still have the gig on tape. Support was 4AD's answer to Joy Division, Modern English, whose first album has weathered surprisingly well. Later they became more successful in the US than over here judging by the numbers of their later albums in US secondhand bargain bins! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:02:47 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Number Six! Why did you Resign? > So did they jump or were they pushed?!?!?! Hi everyone, Once again, I'm speaking for Miles here, but they jumped. No one did any pushing, as far as I know. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:05:33 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] the idealcopy is what you want? At 04:02 PM 11/16/2001 +0100, bartvandamme@home wrote: >Because of me leaving alone a thread [or 2] I'm not completely sure of what >happened exactly between Mileta & Graeme... >They left themselves or were they kicked? Arrrrgh! Before anyone asks again, no one got kicked off the list! As Paul Pietromonaco helpfully explained, both left of their own volition. Mileta explained his departure in a message to the list. As for Graeme, to put it in football (soccer) terms, Graeme was issued a yellow card, not a red. But instead, he chose to leave the match. Anyone who wasn't paying attention can examine the archives, particularly Graeme's "Revolutionary Sounds of Thurston Moore" in http://www.smoe.org/lists/idealcopy/v04.n344, Mileta's response in http://www.smoe.org/lists/idealcopy/v04.n345, and Mileta's farewell in http://www.smoe.org/lists/idealcopy/v04.n346. Anyone needing a Graeme fix to tide them over can visit his excellent website at http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine/ or drop him a line at crackedmachine@yahoo.co.uk. Can we talk about something else now? The "Wire List Management Digest" doesn't seem like an appealing prospect! later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:11:58 EST From: Rain19c@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Art and commerce, again > > The comments about ST2 have piqued my interest. Anyone know anything > about > > how ~swim releases are distributed in the US? I have never ever seen one > of > > theirs in a retail store. I got swim team #1 in virgin megastore in n.y.c found both lobe cds, malka's hide and pet fish,colin's bastard, the first symptoms, immersion, dol-lop, pablos eys - prepare for the others too follow, all in Other music in boston...most of them were downgraded to the used section because they didnt sell. i do see colin's bastard a bunch in stores. ~michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:19:10 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] the idealcopy is what you want? In a message dated 11/16/01 11:04:44 AM Central Standard Time, outdoorminer@mindspring.com writes: << Can we talk about something else now? The "Wire List Management Digest" doesn't seem like an appealing prospect! later, Miles >> Agreed! Onwards and Upwards! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:27:06 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: [idealcopy] [OT, long] Momus Mr. Sodium, then Paul Rabjohn: >> I got a 2cd set of his the other day that purports to resurrect the practice >> of patronage, i.e., a musical piece created in return for financial >support. >> On this cd, he wrote a song about the donor in return for a cash >> contribution. It raises the question whether this concept alone is enough to >> create interest in a song written about someone you know nothing about >(other >> than Jeff Koons (maybe I need to get out more, but the rest of the patrons >> are anonymous to me)). >> >/////i have maybe the first 8 momus albums then i felt he was running out of >ideas and i gave up (the last couple i bought were pretty poor). that >"patronage" album got terrible reviews , nice idea maybe but everyone seemed >to think the music sucked. he's a great wordsmith but struggles to be >original musically i guess.p Eep! STARS FOREVER (the "patronage" album) is (IMO, of course) the best album he's done since THE PHILOSOPHY OF MOMUS (1995), filled with a winning sense of humanity that was sorely missing from its immediate predecessors. Not counting Disc 2's bonus material (the karaoke winners and interview), it's a richly varied and rewarding album -- "The Minus 5," "Natsuko Tayama," "Stefano Zarelli," "Mai Noda," and the gorgeous, aching "Paolo Rumi" ("Seeking someone to join me / so we can be different the same way") all stand out in my mind. I sure wouldn't say that the music sucked! [Celeb patrons also included the aforementioned Minus 5 and Cornelius, though the latter is less obvious since he had Momus write a song about his cats rather than himself!] Paul's comment started me thinking, "where did Paul give up on him," so I started counting the albums out and this was the result. So I'll foist this upon the list for further study and edification... 1 - CIRCUS MAXIMUS - excellent, acoustic-based, tales Biblical and classical Momusized to perfection. 1 1/2 - NICKY EP - excellent collection of original Brel translations. 2 - THE POISON BOYFRIEND - still superb, led by "Three Wars" and "Closer To You." 3 - TENDER PERVERT - transitioning into dancier sounds, and "Ice King" just doesn't work for me, but chock full of essentials otherwise ("A Complete History of Sexual Jealousy Pts. 17-24," "The Charm of Innocence," "Bishonen," "The Homosexual," "I Was a Maoist Intellectual"). 4 - DON'T STOP THE NIGHT - has his only UK hit, "Hairstyle of the Devil," but even when the lyrics are interesting, it's undercut by samey glossy dancey music & production. 5 - HIPPOPOTAMOMUS - synthesizes its two predecessors into a satisfying blend. A friend calls this the most "Momusy" Momus album. Sexsexsexsex. 6 - THE ULTRACONFORMIST - Brecht-like piano-y live album of new material. I think I'd rate DON'T STOP THE NIGHT weaker, but I've probably listened to this one the least. 7 - VOYAGER - Momus falls in love and makes a blissed-out laid-back dance album. Nice ("Conquistador" and "Spacewalk" in particular), but not much more than that. 8 - TIMELORD - similar to VOYAGER, but less blissed-out, more darkness seeping in ("You've Changed" being the exemplar and standout). Treading water creatively, but his mind is understandably preoccupied; see . Paul, you gave up here -- perhaps understandably! -- but you missed the best one: 9 - THE PHILOSOPHY OF MOMUS - Momus recovers his genius in Paris and turns out the most richly varied and creatively rewarding album of his career. The sounds bounce between acoustic, techno, reggae, even blues (!); themes abound, but the central one is the nature of art and music. I can't imagine more trenchant musical treatises on these themes than "The Cabinet of Kuniyoshi Kaneko," "The Madness of Lee Scratch Perry," and the title track. A tour de force. 10 - SLENDER SHERBERT - Momus remakes select tracks from his earlier catalog, mostly in a dancier way. It's beginning to and back again? Like my Wire referent, some are improved, some not. 11 - 20 VODKA JELLIES - Leftoverture? Momus cleans out the closet with recent demos and rarities, some of which he'd given to Kahimi Karie. Worth having for the Momus fan, but probably not of general interest. 20/20 vodka hindsight shows Momus' Analogue Baroque jaded aesthete emerging, for better or worse. 12 - PING PONG - Another stylistic hodgepodge like PHILOSOPHY. There's a clutch of sterling tracks ("2 PM," "How To Get - And Stay - Famous," "My Pervert Doppelganger") and another bunch that are clever just to be clever or didactic in a depressingly predictable way ("My Kindly Friend the Censor"). More compelling than not, but something of a letdown after PHILOSOPHY's heights. 13 - THE LITTLE RED SONGBOOK - Things get even more precious here, and while it's all quite entertaining, it's still too lightweight by half. "What Are You Wearing?" is great fun, "MC Escher" steals one of my oldest jokes, and "A White Oriental Flower" almost redeems the whole thing, but there's not a lot of "there" there. 14 - STARS FOREVER - See above. Reverses the post-PHILOSOPHY slide in grand style. 15 - FOLKTRONIC - The early part of the album is a mixed bag, with about most of it being a sort of concept album about America (Momus has spent the last couple of years living in New York City), joined with his whole "fake folk" electronica concept. It's sometimes condescending ("Simple Men," "Protestant Art"), sometimes inexplicable ("US Knitting"), and sometimes on target ("Psychopathia Sexualis," "Tape Recorder Man"). About two-thirds of the way through, Momus offers up some sincere feeling in "Folk Me, Amadeus" ("The lack of deeper meaning's getting deeper all the time / 'Cotton-Eyed Joe' may just be joke folk techno / But tonight it had me crying / So folk me Amadeus one more time"). But then we're freed of the Americana shackles and into what feels like encores, songs that have little or nothing to do with the rest of the album, and thus have more room to live and breathe. A music-hall ditty about the penis, two nice perspective reversals ("The Lady of Shallott" and "Pygmalism"), Goerte and Heliogabalas put in cameos, and voila! we've got the sequel to PING PONG that should have been. I've never seen Momus live. Of course he never comes near Nashville; our February 2000 London visit intersected his UK tour, but wouldn't you know that the London date was the same night as the Wire RFH gig! I do love Momus, but that was an easy choice... I also recommend Momus' website, http://www.demon.co.uk/momus. Momus does the site himself, and frequently updates it not only with Momus news and materials, but with typically wry commentary about a variety of topics, not all of which have to do with music (see http://www.demon.co.uk/momus/thoughtsindex.html). later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:44:28 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: [idealcopy] ON-topic! 2000 Seattle show So a few weeks ago, Melissa and I spent a long weekend in Seattle. While snooping 'round Pike Place Market, we came upon a guy selling handmade kaleidoscopes. Melissa stopped to examine them (kaleidoscopes are one of her favorite things), and while the guy went into his sales pitch, I noticed he was wearing the Wire t-shirt from the 2000 US tour. I asked him if he'd gotten the shirt at last year's Seattle gig (which took place just a block or so behind the market at the Shadowbox). He said that he had, but he was disappointed with the group's performance. "Technically it was perfect, but there was no feeling in it at all" was his verdict. While I did remember an undercurrent of idealcopy grumblings about Chicago and Boston, I didn't remember any negative on-list comments from Seattle. This week I finally remembered to check the list archives, and there was a quick positive impression from Paul Pietromonaco (May 7th, 2000), and Mitch Goldman's long, glowing review (May 8th) that was right in line with my own thoughts about the three Wire shows (RFH, SF x 2) that I saw in 2000. Anyway, now I'm curious, and wondering what others thought about the Seattle show. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:03:30 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] hmmm ... At 12:02 PM 11/16/2001 -0500, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >Dan, > ><< most unusual thing i saw (& i had time for only about a 15-minute once-over > before they closed) was a copy of the live import cd by the early '80s uk > new romantic (sort of, i guess) band wasted youth. >> > >More like trad rock Rolling Stones wannabes to be honest. Saw them in late >1980 at the legendary Dudley JBs. They had a song called Paris France, which >is about as much as the memory banks can recall, though I may still have the >gig on tape. I thought "Paris, France" was a Red Guitars song. "Paris, France, do the Paris, France, dance..." On the GOOD TECHNOLOGY EP. Of course, it's possible that there's more than one song from the '80s with that title, or that Red Guitars were covering the earlier one... Now there's a memory, Red Guitars. I read about them in Cynthia Rose's LETTER FROM BRITAIN column in CREEM, but had trouble at first finding their record. Cyn identified them as "Hull's Red Guitars" and I thought that "Hull's" was part of their name rather than their place of origin... :-) Thought the EP and first album were minor treasures of the period, sort of a more sincere UK take on early Talking Heads, and "Good Technology" ended up on a lot of my mix tapes from the '80s. Then they changed lead singers, didn't they? I used to own CDs of SLOW TO FADE and, um, the second one (the one with "Be Near Me"), but they were stolen in The Great CD Theft of 1995. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:00:25 +0100 From: bartvanDamme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: KLF >> Perhaps this is a nice new thread? Who do >> you think resisted the demons of old-age or money ect.best. With me Tom >> Waits comes to mind. Perhaps David Bowie... > > huh?!!! you really think so? hmmmm..why just the other day i saw Bowie in an > interview and he was in the studio with Sean "Puffy" Combs...GIVE ME A DAMN > BREAK DAVID!! Does he really need to jump the hip-hop bandwagon? Is he really > that hungry for attention? money? Sheesh, he jumped the Drum and Bass > bandwagon a couple of years back, and now this?but too bad that David Bowie > hasn't put out a decent record since Scary Monsters, and i seriously doubt > Puff Daddy is going to change that..... I guess I forgive Bowie for growing older. BTW, the way he portrayed that proces in the Thursday's Child video was quite touching I thought. As for him being "hungry for attention" well, hasn't he always been? Haven't most artist for that matter? [Not really an age-matter, is it?] > and he still feels the need to do the > Hollywood party scene, which is always ugly to watch..an old guy trying to > fight his age...ugh > > Robert Lynn When does a person have to stop going to parties Robert? ;-) But hey, he is obviously not your example of an artist who... [see above] Can you tell me who in your opinion did mature gracefully? Cheers, Bart bartvandamme@home.nl www.bartvandamme.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:47:23 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] hmmm ... >Support was 4AD's answer to Joy Division, Modern English, whose first album >has weathered surprisingly well. i agree, though the only reviews i've seen lately (i.e. in trouser press record guide) rank it pretty low. why, i haven't the slightest idea. Later they became more successful in the US >than over here judging by the numbers of their later albums in US secondhand >bargain bins! yep, they're all over the place. they (or at least the lead singer -- robbie grey? -- & some later add-ons) played here a couple of years ago & sounded ok, though of course what really got the crowd going was their claim to u.s. fame, i melt with you (admittedly a true pop gem ... sounds a bit odd as the theme for a cheeseburger commercial, i must say). for my part, the highlight of the show was 16 days (or was it gathering dust? one of the two -- both great songs) as the encore. dan > >Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:36:03 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] hmmm ... Miles, << I thought "Paris, France" was a Red Guitars song. "Paris, France, do the Paris, France, dance..." On the GOOD TECHNOLOGY EP. Of course, it's possible that there's more than one song from the '80s with that title, or that Red Guitars were covering the earlier one...<< It's a different song. The Red Guitars were far too wimpy and as you say, sincere, to attempt a full-on rocker like Wasted Youth's anthem (which wouldn't be out of place on, say, Give out but don't give in by Primal Scream). >> Now there's a memory, Red Guitars. I read about them in Cynthia Rose's LETTER FROM BRITAIN column in CREEM, but had trouble at first finding their record. Cyn identified them as "Hull's Red Guitars" and I thought that "Hull's" was part of their name rather than their place of origin... :-) Thought the EP and first album were minor treasures of the period, sort of a more sincere UK take on early Talking Heads, and "Good Technology" ended up on a lot of my mix tapes from the '80s. Then they changed lead singers, didn't they? I used to own CDs of SLOW TO FADE and, um, the second one (the one with "Be Near Me"), but they were stolen in The Great CD Theft of 1995. >> Saw them supporting the Smiths. Didn't leave much of an impression to be honest. there were a lot of groups like that in mid-80s Britain. All jangly semi-acoustics. Mostly on Creation .... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:40:56 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Modern English Dan, << i agree, though the only reviews i've seen lately (i.e. in trouser press record guide) rank it pretty low. why, i haven't the slightest idea.<< Not sure it's ever had a CD release either. >> yep, they're all over the place. they (or at least the lead singer -- robbie grey?<< There's a coincidence! Hell, we almost got on topic...;-) >> -- & some later add-ons) played here a couple of years ago & sounded ok, though of course what really got the crowd going was their claim to u.s. fame, i melt with you (admittedly a true pop gem ... sounds a bit odd as the theme for a cheeseburger commercial, i must say).<< Oh dear. They didn't, did they?!?! >> for my part, the highlight of the show was 16 days (or was it gathering dust? one of the two -- both great songs) as the encore. >> Agreed. Gathering Dust was the single that wasn't on the first album. Very Joy Division. As is its bass line. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:59:14 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Modern English i melt with you (admittedly a true pop gem ... sounds a bit odd as the > theme for a cheeseburger commercial, i must say).<< > >Oh dear. They didn't, did they?!?! yes, indeed, i think for burger king. the horror, the horror ... dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:51:06 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT, long] Momus on 11/16/01 8:27 PM, Miles Goosens at wireadmin@mindspring.com wrote: > I've never seen Momus live. Of course he never comes near Nashville; our > February 2000 London visit intersected his UK tour, but wouldn't you know > that the London date was the same night as the Wire RFH gig! I do love > Momus, but that was an easy choice... I did, in the early 90's - boring as hell he was (and I was a fan then) giluz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #349 *******************************