From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #274 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, September 8 2001 Volume 04 : Number 274 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Re: Wir ["Jerry Butson" ] Re: [idealcopy] Sacred Cow Dylan gets Foot & Mouth [timrobinson@cwcom.net] Re: [idealcopy] Sacred Cow Dylan gets Foot & Mouth [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Sacred Cow Dylan gets Foot & Mouth ["stephen graziano" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT Re: Bowyer ["Ian B" ] Re: [idealcopy] Factory reissues on LTM [fernando ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:09:16 +0100 From: "Jerry Butson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Wir No, it's the publication of ill-timed sub judice media coverage that got the trial scrapped. Meanwhile Bowyer still awaits a retrial that the judge may just throw out due to such previous commentary that may have prejudiced the trial outcome. It's just as ill informed and stupid to presume his innocence. He was obviously involved and just beacuse you miss his presence on the pitch doesn't mean to say he has the absolute right to be there. > It's ill-informed and stupid comments such as these that got the original > trial scrapped, at the tax payer's cost. > > Mark - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.274 / Virus Database: 144 - Release Date: 23/08/2001 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:58:05 +0100 From: timrobinson@cwcom.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Sacred Cow Dylan gets Foot & Mouth Charming! The only person dragging this list down to the level of a chat room is you, HeySean. You seem to infer that you are intellectually superior to the rest of us, and yet you have to pepper your argument with insults and ill-mannered, offensive remarks. (If listees think I'm over-reacting, I should point out that HeySean sent this direct to me, as well as to list. Not a great way to start the day is it?) Tim the village idiot. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:48:28 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Sacred Cow Dylan gets Foot & Mouth Sean ranted, somewhat incoherently, and with scant regard for the rules of punctuation.... << my god what a bunch of stupid assholes the level of churlish commentary in this group is no better than what one finds in the average chat room if you haven't got the brains to understand cultural and historical context then you have undermined your own position from which to make relevant commentary you are an historical eyeblink away from being as irrelevant... >> etc etc. And he was bang out of order. Tim's eloquent diatribe on the demerits of Dylan was most entertaining, I thought. Personally I don't care much for Skiffle. That's not to say I don't appreciate its "cultural and historical context" in late '50s Britian. Just don't like the noise it makes. Isn't that why you listen to music? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:19:38 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Sacred Cow Dylan gets Foot & Mouth >Personally I don't care much for Skiffle. That's not to say I don't >appreciate its "cultural and historical context" in late '50s Britian. Just >don't like the noise it makes. > >Isn't that why you listen to music? > To a certain degree, yes. And if we are just talking about the level of entertainment, and ascribe no particular importance to the activity of enjoying music, then again yes, one person's taste and any performer's music is just as good as any other's because the listener derives his/her enjoyment. But, .... I would offer to suggest that there is another level of musical appreciation. One that requires a higher level of attention and discernment in deciding what constitutes "superior" art and what is just more of the same old stuff. I offered what I considered a context in which to place Dylan's work in order to help appreciate his work. As an analogy, someone today might say, "what's so great about Babe Ruth and hitting 60 home runs in a season? After all, three other guys have done it 5 times in just the past 3 years" But by placing the acheivement in a historical context, it draws into sharper relief the magnitude of the acheivement. Others might say, well I love music, but I can't stand opera, country, disco, etc. Yet one could argue that in any genre (and it should almost be an oxymoron) there will be superior works that deserve any person's appreciation and enjoyment and dross that just wastes one's time with it's pretentions to excellence. (For the purpose of this discussion we are not entertaining any ideas of the commercial markets as a barometer of artistic value or sociological "media hacking") And lastly, there is the eternal question of whether the quality/greatness of a work of art is intrinsic to the work itself, or solely exists in the perception of the listener. And I don't pretend to have an answer for that one. But I will offer these points of consideration. In a formalistic sense, it is considered necessary for an informed, cultured appreciation of the arts, for the student to undergo some degree of education in the appreciation of that art - it's history, it's stylistic evolution, it's structure, it's lineage of innovator's, etc. Only then does the listener (for the case of music) begin to have a framework for judging the particular merits of a composer/performer or musical works. It is also, often considered necessary for the listener to sometimes struggle with a superior artist - simply by dint of their level of originality that their frame of reference takes sometime to adjust to. Of course there are also those whose brilliance, while unduplacatable is immediately apparent. As members of the Wire list, we must constitute, on a whole, a group of people who give high value to inventive, innovative, "difficult" material. I assume that there is a generally higher level of demand for originality and genius in work, and a lower threshold of tolerance for refiners of style for what has already be introduced to the market. I also assume, that we have all learned that, the impossibility of actually discovering everything on our own, we turn to respected critics (for lack of a better term) to introduce us to, and (sometimes) explain to us, advocate for the reasons why we should consider certain artists great, whether or not they ever reach a threshold of popularity. For all of those reasons, Dylan still stands tall in the pantheon. He was a genius of his time. We have to admire genius. It is the very definition of greatness. Dylan in the 60's was siesmic to the culture, and he was revolutionary to the artform. Even the Beatles (to answer a previous commentator) copped obivious Dylanisms, and, it could be argued that Beatles music didn't even begin to be considered as more than straightfoward rock music (albeit excellent) till after their exposure to Dylan and the miraculous weed around 65 and Help and "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:22:21 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Sacred Cow Dylan gets Foot & Mouth Jeez! This list really doesn't change, does it? C >Isn't that why you listen to music? > To a certain degree, yes. And if we are just talking about the level of entertainment, and ascribe no particular importance to the activity of enjoying music, then again yes, one person's taste and any performer's music is just as good as any other's because the listener derives his/her enjoyment. But, .... I would offer to suggest that there is another level of musical appreciation. One that requires a higher level of attention and discernment in deciding what constitutes "superior" art and what is just more of the same old stuff. I offered what I considered a context in which to place Dylan's work in order to help appreciate his work. As an analogy, someone today might say, "what's so great about Babe Ruth and hitting 60 home runs in a season? After all, three other guys have done it 5 times in just the past 3 years" But by placing the acheivement in a historical context, it draws into sharper relief the magnitude of the acheivement. Others might say, well I love music, but I can't stand opera, country, disco, etc. Yet one could argue that in any genre (and it should almost be an oxymoron) there will be superior works that deserve any person's appreciation and enjoyment and dross that just wastes one's etc etc etc etc etc...... The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 10:50:07 -0400 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: ... but do I have to like (Double Albums?) >>like any double i can think of (any exceptions occur to anyone? >>possibly metal box, which was released in that format over here ... >>certainly not london bloody calling) is packed with filler. >Husker Du's Warehouse. Can't imagine that without any of its 20 tracks. With the exception of a great pop track "Ice Cold Ice" all the rest of that album sounds like filler to my ears! Syarzhuk


Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 08:58:22 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #273 At 04:30 AM 9/7/01 -0400, you wrote: >I wasn't alive and history hardly ever moves me more then the present does. >~michael I'm sincerely sorry to hear that. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:50:12 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #273 >At 04:30 AM 9/7/01 -0400, you wrote: >>I wasn't alive and history hardly ever moves me more then the present does. >>~michael > >I'm sincerely sorry to hear that. > >Michael Flaherty truly. it's almost enough to make one wonder whether there might be anything to the wailing & gnashing of teeth over the current generation's lack of intellectual sophistication (which of course has no doubt been said about *every* current generation). dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:53:29 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] now playing: Fad Gadget live in Rotterdam 1984 !!!!!! The sound quality on this cd is amazing...got it off ebay....i was skeptical but took a chance anyway...boy am i glad i did!.....THis sounds like an official release of a live album! .....if anybody would like a copy on cassette tape (don't have access to a cd burner just yet) let me know, maybe we can work a cassette or cd-r trade! i'm always looking for people to trade tapes/cd-r's with....i also have two fantastic Autechre live shows from 2001 and 1998....as well as the ultra rare Warp promo only "Radio" mix cd...... Watch Take Care Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:58:46 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] John Foxx Live in London Fopr anyone who might be interested: John and Louis live in London... A little bit of extra news regarding John and Louis' forthcoming gig (Saturday the 15th of September) at the Mean Fiddler, 165 Charing Cross Road, London. I've been advised that there will be two support bands (Manuskript and Greenhaus) and because of this the doors will now be opening at 6:00pm - and not 7:00pm as it states on some tickets... This means that John and Louis will now be on stage at approximately 8:00pm. Also, a few people have asked if there will be any CDs for sale. It's anticipated that "Modern Art", "Metamatic", "The Garden", "The Golden Section" and "In Mysterious Ways" will all be available at the gig... as well as "The Pleasures of Electricity"! The final track-listing for "The Pleasures of Electricity" is as follows... 01. A Funny Thing 02. Nightlife 03. Camera 04. Invisible Women 05. Cities of Light No.5 06. Uptown / Downtown 07. When it Rains 08. Automobile 09. The Falling Room 10. Travel 11. Quiet City ***** ........since i live in the USA i doubt that i will be going to this show....HOWEVER, if any fellow ideal copyists are going and would do me the favor of picking up the new cd called "The Pleasures of Electricity" which will be sold at the show...i would be very grateful...i would of course pay you for the cd as well as shipping.....I am huge John Foxx fan and the wait for this cd had been killing me!!! Someone let me know before the 15th so i don't have more than one person buying this for me!!! Thanks!!! Robert Lynn (RLynn9@aol.com) from across the big pond ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:26:53 +0200 From: "Mileta Okiljevic" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: ... but do I have to like (Double Albums?) > >Husker Du's Warehouse. Can't imagine that without any of its 20 > tracks. > > With the exception of a great pop track "Ice Cold Ice" all the rest of that > album sounds like filler to my ears! > > Syarzhuk **************************** I like Up In The Air.. Bed Of Nails..also.. She Floated Away.. not to mentioned Could You Be The One.. Mark, you' re right !! Bob Mould vs. Grant Hart !? Bob Mould of course...!! Grant Hart of course...!! in separate careers i like more Bob Mould , must admit Workbook - favourite one ( even if i REALLY, really hated it when first time heard it, it took years to LIKE it ). it is interested to programmed CD to play just Mould/Hart songs.. i am fond of Heidi Berry cover of Up In The Air.. does anyone know any cover of HD songs more..!? Double albums Tangerine Dream - Encore Lycia - Burning Circle & Then Dust PIL - Metal Box Red House Painters - Red House Painters Joy Division - Still This Mortal Coil - Blood Swans - Children Of God David Sylvian - Gone To Earth does Simple Minds - Sisters Feelings Call / Sons & Fascination count as double album after appearing of CD format many albums was 60- 70 minutes long and when they appear on vinyls they are usual double albums, at first not planned as double albums. maybe there is lack of quality in today compared to some other time, band carefully choose their material. they was restricted with their creativity, and choose best for albums and singles. i think that CD format destroy one very, very nice format EP's. Ep's was conceptual, also band can experiments with different songs, etc, etc.. i aksed people from some bands about it nad get answer that record labels aren't so much interested in EP's because they can easily earn money with CD1, 2 even 3 with endless remixes. well, there must be more i cannot remember now ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:31:18 +0200 From: "Mileta Okiljevic" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] now playing: > Fad Gadget live in Rotterdam 1984 !!!!!! The sound quality on this cd is > amazing...got it off ebay....i was skeptical but took a chance anyway...boy > am i glad i did!.....THis sounds like an official release of a live album! > .....if anybody would like a copy on cassette tape (don't have access to a cd > burner just yet) let me know, maybe we can work a cassette or cd-r trade! > i'm always looking for people to trade tapes/cd-r's with....i also have two > fantastic Autechre live shows from 2001 and 1998....as well as the ultra rare > Warp promo only "Radio" mix cd..... Fad Gadget will offer to us Best Of ..CD. On Mute label. also, supporting Depeche Mode on Europe Tour nice move from Mute or anyone who suggested it. . > > Watch Take Care > Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:56:43 -0700 From: "John M Campbell" Subject: [idealcopy] Factory reissues on LTM Good news for appreciators of SXX5 and The WAKE; www.ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk/newrelease.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:08:00 +0100 From: "Ian B" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT Re: Bowyer The actuality or extent of Bowyer's involvement in the assault is known to only a very few people. Rumours abound and have abounded from the minute this thing became public, many of them very unsavoury. However, given the fact that the extent - if any - of Bowyer's involvement has yet to be proved in Court, maybe it's right that he should be allowed to go to work. As for describing him as racist, what are you basing that on? Ian - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Butson That would have been good then wouldn't it? Having a racist thug running round the pitch... And > No, it's the publication of ill-timed sub judice media coverage that got the > trial scrapped. Meanwhile Bowyer still awaits a retrial that the judge may > just throw out due to such previous commentary that may have prejudiced the > trial outcome. > > It's just as ill informed and stupid to presume his innocence. He was > obviously involved and just beacuse you miss his presence on the pitch > doesn't mean to say he has the absolute right to be there. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:03:36 -0700 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Factory reissues on LTM So, does this mean that they found some decent masters for the Wake? (According to the recent comment from Mark, that LTM refuses to use vinyl as a source). Thanks for posting the news! cheers! - -fernando At 10:56 -0700 09.07.2001, John M Campbell wrote: >Good news for appreciators of SXX5 and The WAKE; >www.ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk/newrelease.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:40:24 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Factory reissues on LTM Fernando, << So, does this mean that they found some decent masters for the Wake? (According to the recent comment from Mark, that LTM refuses to use vinyl as a source). >> James doesn't refuse to master from vinyl (some of the Names stuff was from vinyl) but he does prefer to use the original masters. Either they've turned up or the studio he uses has bought Pro Tools! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:53:50 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: ... but do I have to like (Double Albums?) Mileta, << I like Up In The Air.. Bed Of Nails..also.. She Floated Away.. not to mentioned Could You Be The One.. Mark, you' re right !!<< Oh, usually ;-) >> Bob Mould vs. Grant Hart !? Bob Mould of course...!! Grant Hart of course...!! in separate careers i like more Bob Mould , must admit<< Both patchy really. A definite case of 1+1=3 Anybopdy been to Greg Norton's restaurant in Minneapolis (he's a highly thought-of chef these days!) >>Workbook - favourite one ( even if i REALLY, really hated it when first time heard it, it took years to LIKE it ).<< Always loved that album. A real change of pace - he almost sounds happy! Back to misery and self-loathing on Black Sheets of Rain though! Hart's solo stuff is always surprisingly good... >> i am fond of Heidi Berry cover of Up In The Air.. does anyone know any cover of HD songs more..!? >> Just the other day I bought some CDs on sale at the Big Star gig in London by Jon Auer out of the Posies, which contained lots of covers, including the Du's Green eyes, in a quiet acoustic stylee. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 00:57:25 +0100 From: Tim Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Sacred Cow Dylan gets Foot & Mouth Stephen wrote: >I assume that there is a generally higher level of demand for originality >and genius in work, and a lower threshold of tolerance for refiners of >style for what has already be introduced to the market. Not necessarily. The best bands/artists mix and match from a whole range of styles, to the point where the lines are blurred and, as with prime time Wire, they create an (almost) original strand. Wire were refiners of a style to some extent, but you can't really lump Our Swimmer, most of Chairs Missing and 154 in with punk, or even post-punk. Its timeless, brilliant music! Our bile is perhaps saved for those bands that re-heat a particular style in a rather graceless manner and add only a new haircut to the mix. The Strokes spring to mind, although I'm aware several listees swear by them! But surely the original is not necessarily the best. Just the first. The Damned are often credited with releasing the first ever proper Punk record. Hmmm. >I also assume, that we have all learned that, the impossibility of >actually discovering everything on our own, we turn to respected critics >(for lack of a better term) to introduce us to, and (sometimes) explain to >us, advocate for the reasons why we should consider certain artists great, >whether or not they ever reach a threshold of popularity. Yep, theres no getting away from that really. Unless you are *really* dedicated to seeking out the outer limits of rock, like our man Graeme Rowland who is out there, finding new stuff all the time. Mind you, given the appalling lack of decent criticism in the UK music press I find myself relying on the 'new release' lists from my local record shops and just buying stuff based on their descriptions, rather than reviews. Actually it works pretty well! >For all of those reasons, Dylan still stands tall in the pantheon. He was >a genius of his time. We have to admire genius. It is the very >definition of greatness. No it isn't! We should always question Genius! Genius is not innate, it is applied by another. In crap, British Sunday Magazines the following people have often been referred to as Geniuses when quite clearly they are not: Fatboy Slim, Peter Gabriel, Eric Clapton, Dave Stewart (ohmigod!), Bob Geldof, Vivienne Westwood, Tracy Emin, Damien Hurst and I kid you not..Chris Evans (pig ignorant British DJ/chat show host) >Dylan in the 60's was siesmic to the culture, and he was revolutionary to >the artform. Come on Stephen. Neither me, nor any of the other people who responded to your (admittedly provocative and excellent) article on Dylan have denied this fact. But Dylan kicked the arse of the zeitgeist ten years before I was born....and at the end of the day his music does not send shivers down *my* spine. It doesn't move me. I am thankful for what he did.....but I don't have to swallow the bitter pill! Stephen, I don't know what other music you like but right now I'm listening to Autechre's incredible album 'Chiastic Slide' . Like Dylan they are very influential, they pretty much defined a whole genre (Electronica), they blew the minds of at least one mainstream rock band (Radiohead) and continue to coax heartbreaking melodies and astonishing sounds and rhythms from their Apple Macs to this day. Every record they release moves the goalposts and baffles their critics......and perhaps they are geniuses! There is plenty of academic and critical verbiage to back this up. Me? I love their music! Do you? > Even the Beatles (to answer a previous commentator) copped obivious > Dylanisms, and, it could be argued that Beatles music didn't even begin > to be considered as more than straightfoward rock music (albeit > excellent) till after their exposure to Dylan and the miraculous weed > around 65 and Help and "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away" Correct. But their fans still *loved* their music before Dylan passed the spliff to Ringo, even if the conservative music critics of the day weren't ready to accept it. They didn't need critics to tell them it was great! Also, in early 1965, only a few months after Dylan's lackey had skinned up the Beatles first spliff, a London dentist served up some LSD for George & John by slipping it into their coffee during a dinner party. Is he a genius? Does anyone even know his name? The Kids are Untied http://www.kidsindestructible.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 08:21:04 +0200 From: "Mileta Okiljevic" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: ... but do I have to like (Double Albums?) > Just the other day I bought some CDs on sale at the Big Star gig in London by > Jon Auer out of the Posies, which contained lots of covers, including the > Du's Green eyes, in a quiet acoustic stylee. i remember that Mega City 4 done something with Don' t Wanna Know If You Are Lonely, or it was Sorry Somehow ? They played it live... mileta ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 08:16:37 +0100 From: "Andrew Lumbard" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Wir Howard enquired >> >> BTW, does anyone else see a moderate resemblance between EGL and >> Liverpool and England midfielder JAmie Carragher? Not really, but talking of Mcmanaman as you were, have you noticed his uncanny resemblance to Nicole Kidman? AndyL ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #274 *******************************