From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #265 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, August 30 2001 Volume 04 : Number 265 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Voices on The First Letter [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] AW: most overrated band? [Woerner Frank ] [idealcopy] Swim~ and 'Get Ready' [timrobinson@cwcom.net] AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list [Woerner Frank ] Re: AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list [MarkBursa@aol.com] AW: AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list [Woerner Frank ] Re: [idealcopy] Voices on The First Letter [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] AW: most overrated band? [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] [idealcopy] Beatles/top tens [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list ["stephen graziano" ] Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles [eric719@webtv.n] Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles [MarkBursa@aol.c] Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles ["dan bailey" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 01:41:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Voices on The First Letter > who's the uncredited female voice? Uh, there's a female voice on the album? What song? I know Colin sings very high a couple of times, but that's about it. (Up, down, here, there, nowhere, etc) > who is claude bessey, besides the voice on naked...? Go here: http://www.art-for-a-change.com/Punk/pdraw4.htm Claude is now sadly departed. > who says "it continues" at the beginning of the song? Graham. > who sings the words "footsi-footsi"? Graham. > what are the words blurted out in ticking mouth? > who does the first part of a bargain...? Don't know. > i know some of you saw live shows around this time. > what were they like? Judging by the videos, pretty bloody awful, although at least the elements of the album mixed into oblivion by dodgy production can be hard on the live takes! (For instance, 'A Bargain...' is actually improved in the version I've heard.) Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:59:42 +0200 From: Woerner Frank Subject: [idealcopy] AW: most overrated band? >-----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- >Von: ian jackson [mailto:iansjackson@hotmail.com] >Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. August 2001 19:44 >An: Woerner Frank >Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org >Betreff: most overrated band? > > >> >10.Beatles - Abby Road >> >>.. as I already said ... most overrated group of alltime. >> >>FrankfromBavaria > >Frank, you ARE kidding right? !!! Well, uuhm ... errrhhh ... I'm serious. Of course that's just my personal opinion. Born in '59 I was just not old enough to really take part in their output when it was contemporary. Although I received a few singles like "A hard days night" being an 8 years old child. But, as my musical life started in the seventies I had not much interested in the sixties music and still today it sounds "old" and "boring" to me. The only music of a Beatle I (still) like are a few Wings songs. But that ended with the horrible "Mull of Kintyre". So, to me as a listener they are overrated. I cannot recognize any influence of them in the music I listened to during the last 30 years. I'd say bands who were "BIG" in the sixties are similar to Bands who are "BIG" now. And who is "BIG" now ... just Boygroups, Spice Girls, R'n'B charts stuff ... etc. regards FrankfromBavaria ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:01:18 +0200 From: Bart Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles Btw, What is it you don't like about the Beatles, Frank? "phony beatle-mania"? Early years? Later years? Lennon? McCartney? Do you also think their influence is overrated? [hard for me to grasp... someone disliking them...] Cheers :-) Bart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:58:28 +0200 From: Bart Subject: Re: [idealcopy] AW: most overrated band? Bart van Damme > Well, > > uuhm ... errrhhh ... I'm serious. > Of course that's just my personal opinion. > Born in '59 I was just not old enough to really > take part in their output when it was contemporary. > Although I received a few singles like "A hard days night" > being an 8 years old child. > > But, as my musical life started in the seventies I had > not much interested in the sixties music and still today > it sounds "old" and "boring" to me. The only music of > a Beatle I (still) like are a few Wings songs. But that > ended with the horrible "Mull of Kintyre". > > So, to me as a listener they are overrated. > I cannot recognize any influence of them in > the music I listened to during the last 30 years. > > I'd say bands who were "BIG" in the sixties are similar > to Bands who are "BIG" now. And who is "BIG" now ... just > Boygroups, Spice Girls, R'n'B charts stuff ... etc. > > regards > > FrankfromBavaria Frank, Seems to me you skipped the [fun] part between "Hard days Night" and Wings. Their White Album for instance was quite an unusual album when it was released. Lofi-avant-la-lettre Lennon-songs, experimental stuff like Revolution 9 and boy, even mr.Yesterday himself Paul McC. was inspired to write and perform totally weird songs like "Honey Pie", Why don't we do it in the road?" and "Helter Skelter"! Check: www.upv.es/~ecabrera/white.html But hey, if you don't like it, you don't like it... :-) About "BIG" In 60's/70's you also had the equivalents of todays boy/girl-bands. In pop there's allways been hit-factories. I have to giggle when some twat like Billy Corgan says he's quitting Smashing Pumpkins because of all the Britney's in the world... [not that I mind them quitting, hehehe] So what is "BIG" now? I would say bands like U2 or REM are BIG in the same sense that Beatles or Stones were BIG then. Cheers, Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl bart@adrem.nl icq: 106821124 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:30:26 +0100 From: timrobinson@cwcom.net Subject: [idealcopy] Swim~ and 'Get Ready' Howard wrote: >V much like the sound of the new swim~ sampler. Yeah Some new product at last! Might even get the list back on topic for a few minutes! Wonder how many of the 'new' signings are actually Newman family members in disguise? They are sort of a post-rock Von-Trapp family aren't they? > Not too impressed with >New Order's album on a couple of plays, though `Crystal' is pretty good. My main problem with 'Get Ready' is the production. There are actually some very good New Order melodies on there which given are more economic production could have been on a par with, say, Theives Like Us or Your Silent Face. (Listen to the last track and try and imagine it without the syrupy strings, acosutic guitar and the yucky Texas-style swing beat.) However Steve 'Happy Mondays' Osbourne has been busy with the Pro-tools. He's ironed out every vocal imperfection, every bum note and added loads of twiddly production tricks. The band are drenched in this awful 1998-style Chemical Bros/Primal Scream/Big-Beat/Fatboy Slim kind of sheen. I used to like NO because they were never slick and polished (before Republic) but this gave their lovely songs room to breath. Sounds like they are trying way too hard to be Radio1 friendly and have ended up with a rather dated sounding record. The 'Slacker chic' (zzzzzzzzzzzzzz!) sleeve concept is naff as well although perhaps Peter Saville was cleverly trying to sum up the content of the record: Monochrome, dated, bit too glossy, little flashes of genius here and there (hence the red line). (The sleeve of Crystal is a picture of some pants, which sums up that tune very well) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:16:59 +0200 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list Hi, my list: not ten but three and not albums just songs would be: Stairway to Heaven Marquee Moon Won't get fooled again FrankfromBavaria ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:28:21 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list Frank, << Stairway to Heaven >> Of all the pieces of music ever written, Stairway to Heaven must be my least favourite. That and bloody Freebird. I fought in the punk rock wars to rid the world of this sort of old toss etc.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:00:04 +0200 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list >-----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- >Von: MarkBursa@aol.com [mailto:MarkBursa@aol.com] >Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. August 2001 14:28 >An: Woerner Frank; idealcopy@smoe.org >Betreff: Re: AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list > > >Frank, > ><< Stairway to Heaven >> > >Of all the pieces of music ever written, Stairway to Heaven >must be my least >favourite. That and bloody Freebird. > >I fought in the punk rock wars to rid the world of this sort >of old toss >etc.... Hi Mark, once apon a time in the seventies a handsome young man with long blond hair ( now it is grey and very short ) lost his virginity while listening to the music of led zeppelin IV ... on another night he fought in the streets to the music of who's next .... nothing can bring back those magic moments ... maybe if I just close my eyes and press the start button on my player ... regards, FrankfromBavaria ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:31:08 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list In a message dated 8/29/2001 5:30:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > I fought in the punk rock wars to rid the world of this sort of old toss > etc.... > LOL reminds me of the scene in Hard Day's Night when the Four are arguing with an older man on the train (obviously a Mr Suit on his way into The City) and he says "we fought the war for the likes of you..." and John says "bet you wish you'd lost..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:00:01 -0700 (PDT) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] this in from uzine Hello ! Our [uzine] (see links at the bottom of this mail is running an enquiry into favourite records. We'd be _very_ pleased and truly honoured if you should feel like sending in your replies. We'd be truly grateful, also, if you should prefer to answer the questions in the Word file attached rather than in the e-mail ; that makes it easier for us to layout... The various replies will be published later this year (probably December or something); your e-address will remain as confidential as ever, but we would like to print your name and "function" (e.g. band you're in, book you've published, label you work for, website you run, projects you organise, show you do ...) ; could you please provide that info as well, in the way you prefer it ? Do feel free to skip the questions you don't like as well. Greetings y gracias Patrick * Which record or band influenced you the most ? * Which is your favourite record to fall asleep with ? * Which is a brilliant record to wake up with on an active, sunny morning ? * Which is a brilliant record to wake up to on a hazy Sunday afternoon ? * Suppose youve got 800 km of road ahead and youre going to be stuck with only one cd or tape in the car... which one had it better be ? * What are other instances of superior driving music ? * Suppose the same thing happens to you on a desert island : which album would you want to study forever ? * Which one comes as a close second ? * The horror, the horror : what if itd be the other way around... which album would be unbearable to be stuck with ? * Which other bands would be sheer terror to be forced to listen to ? * What's the biggest laugh (i.e. the funniest thing) you've heard on record ? Thanks a lot for answering ! Patrick Vandenberghe Ultra WWW Magazine PO Box 19 B-2550 Kontich Belgium (Europe) http://www.dma.be/p/ultra/new.htm http://www.dma.be/p/ultra/uzine/contents.htm ===== kevin eden wmo limited, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk e-mail: wmouk@yahoo.com web: www.wiremailorder.com "dreams that money can buy" Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:03:03 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Voices on The First Letter In a message dated 8/29/01 4:42:54 AM, wireviews@yahoo.com writes: >Colin sings very high a couple of times, but >that's about it. (Up, down, here, there, nowhere, etc) yeah, that's the one i was thinking was female. now i hear it as colin, harmonizing with graham i suppose. thanks for the info chris. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:32:06 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] AW: most overrated band? In a message dated 8/29/01 5:01:49 AM, Frank.Woerner@nbg.sbs.de writes: > >Born in '59 I was just not old enough to really >take part in their output when it was contemporary. >Although I received a few singles like "A hard days night" >being an 8 years old child. > >But, as my musical life started in the seventies I had >not much interested in the sixties music that's too bad. i think a lot has to do with where we grow up. here in the states (new york) i was raised on the beatles. i was born in 1964, and i'd have to assume i was one of the youngest fans, and i really was a fan. at 5 or 6 years old i went to our local record store (the mole hole) and bought a yellow submarine t-shirt, size small. it was like a dress on me, but i wore it into my teens until it fell apart. my dad also liked the rolling stones, santana, and the doors. for some reason though, the only other music in his collection that i dug was...um, er...neil diamond. at the least i have mr. diamond to thank for giving me the sense to buy live on a hot august night by crispy ambulance! i admit i still have some guilty pleasure hearing his old songs from time to time though. > >I'd say bands who were "BIG" in the sixties are similar >to Bands who are "BIG" now. And who is "BIG" now ... just >Boygroups, Spice Girls, R'n'B charts stuff ... etc. this is certainly true, but that's why i listen to college radio. it's so rare to hear good music on commercial radio, it's just not worth listening to except in dire situations. as a kid i had a hard time discriminating. i liked the archies, jackson 5, osmonds, bay city rollers...unfortunately, the list of these groups is endless. there were some gems i still remember from my childhood though: the o'jays 8 minute "i love music" 45 that had to be flipped over half way through...hehe, like the click in the middle of a song on 8 track. - -paul c.d. p.s. as for beatles influence...i hear that all over college radio, from simple pop songs to experimental tape effects, etc... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:41:55 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Beatles/top tens OK, as we have said endless times, there are no rights and wrongs in taste, and yes anyone can hate The Beatles (they're no longer my "favorite" band--I just "like" them). But as Bruce Gilbert, who does not like the Beatles (Colin does, of course--not sure about Graham), has said, The Beatles and the Velvet Underground were the two bands that made a completely new sound (in rock--paraphrase). It doesn't seem to me that either band can possibly be overrated. Intersting reading the top tens. Of course, they're meaningless to all but the one who writes them, but it is interesting to see what others would pick--so very little that I would. The first two VU albums would make mine, as would 154 ... but I don't feel like trying to write one right now. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:19:06 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles In a message dated 8/29/01 4:02:21 AM Central Daylight Time, bart@adrem.nl writes: << tw, What is it you don't like about the Beatles, Frank? "phony beatle-mania"? Early years? Later years? Lennon? McCartney? Do you also think their influence is overrated? [hard for me to grasp... someone disliking them...] Cheers :-) Bart >>>>>>>>>> In defense of Frank: ....I can't really imagine anyone disliking Depeche Mode or New Order...BUT plenty of people do....Sure the Beatles were a different sound for the times, but does that neccessarily make them the be-all-end-all? sure millions and millions the world over absolutely adore/d them...so what?....I listen to them occasionally and their music doesn't really do anything for me (with the exception of a few songs like "Let it Be")...Same with the Stones (who i actually like more)..i love the songs Ruby Tuesday, Sympathy For the Devil, Gimme Shelter, and Wild Horses when i hear them, but i don't really care all that much about their music....This is not musical ignorance on my part at all...i have listened to many albums by both groups..i have rented, borrowed, and even purchased albums...I listened to them closely so i could form an educated opinion... ...my opinion is this: There is only so much time in the day/night to listen to this wonderful thing called music...why would i want to waste my time on things that don't move me or that i don't find interesting? (which is probably the way Frank feels)..I would rather explore other areas of music (even if i find that i don't like them)...it's the exploration and discovery of things that interests me.....i can turn on any oldies stations 24 hours a day and hear the Beatles and Stones.....As i have said before, music is such a large and wonderful part of my life and i appreciate each and every one of you for sharing your thoughts, musings, ideas, critiques, knowledge and opinions...and most of all your discoveries...i have learned much and been inspired to explore bands/musicians/artists that i never considered before.......i love Ideal Copy! take care all! Robert Lynn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:20:20 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] Re: top 10 list >From: MarkBursa@aol.com >>Frank, > ><< Stairway to Heaven >> > >Of all the pieces of music ever written, Stairway to Heaven must be my >least >favourite. That and bloody Freebird. > >I fought in the punk rock wars to rid the world of this sort of old toss >etc.... > >Mark At least he didn't list "Karnevil Number 9 (Number 9 Number 9 Number 9) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:06:06 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles Robert, << Sure the Beatles were a different sound for the times, but does that neccessarily make them the be-all-end-all? << Their impact was a little stronger than "a different sound for the times". The Beatles simply rewrote the rules, then rewrote them again..and again. Everything since owes them a debt, simple as that. >>I listen to them occasionally and their music doesn't really do anything for me (with the exception of a few songs like "Let it Be")...<< So you've heard The White Album all the way through? Or Revolver? >>.i can turn on any oldies stations 24 hours a day and hear the Beatles and Stones.....<< You'll hear an abbreviated selection of some big hits, but you'll only hear a tiny percentage of either band's output. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:50:28 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Swim~ and 'Get Ready' > >V much like the sound of the new swim~ sampler. > > Yeah Some new product at last! Might even get the list back on topic for a few > minutes! Wonder how many of the 'new' signings are actually Newman family members > in disguise? They are sort of a post-rock Von-Trapp family aren't they? > /////there's a hell of a lot of new bands on there for sure. i guess there's the answer to the "what's colin been doing in the last few months?" question. whereas swim team 1 was pretty much established acts. should be a good listen. anyone else bought the new symptoms album yet? got it yesterday and gave it one play through ; very spacy and beatless. similar progression as "oscillating" to "low impact" maybe? didn't like the first symptoms cd much at first but it grew on me a lot..... question ; what's the piquet album like? one i've often meant to get but never yet managed. any fans of it out there? p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:00:21 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Beatles/top tens >Some may have misunderstood me ... I do not hate the Beatles, >they just don't mean anything to me. Of course I do know of >the common opinion that music wouldn't be what it is today >if there weren't the Beatles - to my personal music listening >habits that doesn't mean anything. I do listen to what I like >and try to not let me be influenced from "authorities". I think it's really a difference between personal influence and overall influence. I, like you, am not that influenced by them, but obviously they've influenced many people. I hope that makes sense. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:27:02 +0200 From: "Frank Jürgen Wörner" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Beatles/top tens - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Flaherty" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:41 PM Subject: [idealcopy] Beatles/top tens > OK, as we have said endless times, there are no rights and wrongs in taste, > and yes anyone can hate The Beatles (they're no longer my "favorite" > band--I just "like" them). Some may have misunderstood me ... I do not hate the Beatles, they just don't mean anything to me. Of course I do know of the common opinion that music wouldn't be what it is today if there weren't the Beatles - to my personal music listening habits that doesn't mean anything. I do listen to what I like and try to not let me be influenced from "authorities". I think I'm very openminded and keen on finding new interesting music ( Napster was a paradise for that ). So often I hear music where I think its of "higer quality" than any Beatles song and therefore have problems understanding why everyone thinks Lennon was a genius and musician Mr. X ( who for my personal satisfaction did more ) isn't given the same "genius" status. ... shit ... my english isn't precise enough to describe what I want to say ... sorry for that, enough for now. FrankfromBavaria ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:27:41 -0700 (PDT) From: eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles <> I also don't like them. I don't care for their music, and have never understood the hype. Maybe someone could clue us in as to what was so great about them. Eric Astro Page http://community.webtv.net/eric719/TheStrangListDeep ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:29:36 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles << I also don't like them. I don't care for their music, and have never understood the hype. Maybe someone could clue us in as to what was so great about them. >> OK, try redefining music and culture. The Beatles hauled the world out of the torpid, miserable, post-war '50s and shaped the cultural environment that exists today. They were a genuine phenomenon, and achieved massive success through innovation without compromise. They weren't the underground, they were the mainstream. It's understandable for people born post-1970 not to the sound they make. But only a fool would begrudge their position of influence, a position that simply cannot be challenged. Personally I can't understand how anyone cannot like at least some of the music they made, such was its diversity. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:07:11 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert Pollard's All Time Top 10/Beatles my own view is that it's pointless to discuss whether one likes them or not, insofar as they're as integral a part of the post-'62 (or thereabouts) cultural landscape as oxygen is a part of the air that we breathe. probably there are people who don't like oxygen, but ... dan, starting to wonder whether hydrogen might be overrated ><< I also don't like them. I don't care for their music, and have never > understood the hype. Maybe someone could clue us in as to what was so > great about them. >> > >OK, try redefining music and culture. The Beatles hauled the world out of the >torpid, miserable, post-war '50s and shaped the cultural environment that >exists today. They were a genuine phenomenon, and achieved massive success >through innovation without compromise. They weren't the underground, they >were the mainstream. > >It's understandable for people born post-1970 not to the sound they make. But >only a fool would begrudge their position of influence, a position that >simply cannot be challenged. > >Personally I can't understand how anyone cannot like at least some of the >music they made, such was its diversity. > >Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:13:54 -0700 (PDT) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] last night i mostly listened to: Bill Evans - Waltz For Debby ===== kevin eden wmo limited, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk e-mail: wmouk@yahoo.com web: www.wiremailorder.com "dreams that money can buy" Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:47:11 +0200 From: Bart Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Beatles > [hard for me to grasp... someone disliking them...] > Bart > ...my opinion is this: There is only so much time in the day/night to listen > to this wonderful thing called music...why would i want to waste my time on > things that don't move me or that i don't find interesting? (which is > probably the way Frank feels)..I would rather explore other areas of music > (even if i find that i don't like them)...it's the exploration and discovery > of things that interests me.....i can turn on any oldies stations 24 hours a > day and hear the Beatles and Stones.....As i have said before, music is such > a large and wonderful part of my life and i appreciate each and every one of > you for sharing your thoughts, musings, ideas, critiques, knowledge and > opinions...and most of all your discoveries...i have learned much and been > inspired to explore bands/musicians/artists that i never considered > before.......i love Ideal Copy! take care all! > Robert Lynn Very nicely put man! I stand corrected. :-) Cheers! Bart www.bartvandamme.com bartvandamme@home.nl bart@adrem.nl icq: 106821124 ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #265 *******************************