From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #222 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, July 21 2001 Volume 04 : Number 222 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Vegetables are (f/g)ood for you [Wireviews ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: buggles versus coil [Creaig Dunton Subject: [idealcopy] Vegetables are (f/g)ood for you Graeme yelled at the top of the tree: "Some things cannot be said! Isn't that why people do art?" I knew someone who spent three years glueing doughnuts to canvases and painting them bright colours. Not sure why I mentioned that, but I'm sure it's relevant in some way :) "No seriously, I never said everything was art." I know, but that was one direction this was heading in, which I steered off at the pass by building a wall. Out of doughnuts. "What I meant was that all this pop music stuff is. A lot of its crap art. I find the 'pop is not art' stance a bit old hat!" I actually like the 'art and craft' idea that someone suggested on this list. Is manufactured pop art like Warhol or craft like wallpapering. Maybe Hear'Say would make good wallpaper, or even good decorators. Who knows? "So are you implying that Strokes have two songs that blatantly lift riffs from Fall songs? If so which Fall songs?" No... I'm talking about the general sound and the way the tracks are put together. That thing about New York city cops has a very Smith-esque opening bit (the cough, the mumbled vocals) -- the same 'old skool Fall' bassline vs drums thing is used. Take away the vocals and it could pass for Fall c.1981 -- that's what I meant, rather than Elastica's 'reaarangement' idea. >>>>Bland? Maybe, but not Hear'Say bland. "What do you mean by Hear'Say bland?" There is innoffensive, like Strokes. They at least have some oomph. Then there is Hear'Say, which is far less exciting than a Rich Tea biscuit. That "band" takes all the dullest, safe, teeny-pop aspects of other bland bands like All Saints and mixes them up in a bland stew of blandless. They really are very, very dull. "I own records by [snip] ... it's just that I don't listen to a lot of this stuff (except the first 4) all that often (unless I'm using some of it to make loops) because I've discovered much more interesting stuff since." You know, I go through stages like that, but there are times every now and again where I hanker for the stuff like that, dig out all my 'mouly old dough' and give it another spin. More often than not, I end up thinking "I'm sure this was better," but every now and again I come across a gem, Human League's 'Empire State Human' being a recent one. (And the extra tracks on the 'Reproduction' CD are almost reminiscent of Dome... :) "People do have odd perceptions of Wire sometimes." People I know have compared second-gen Wire to all sorts of '80s bands, such as NO, DM, etc, but there was always this skew. The mate of mine who first introduced me to Wire gave me a tape knowing that I was into all that stuff at the time. Mind you, it was sufficiently different to knock me off my chair (Ahead was the first track, BTW. It may not be the best Wire track ever, but it's the one that stays with me...) [impressed with] "Advantage In Height when he heard them in passing from the brochure though." I remember standing next to some coked-up wanker at the Garage, with his non-coked-up mate with a notepad, both of whom claimed to be from East-West or some other label. The coked one declared after 'Lowdown' that that was "real Wire" and all the "new" stuff was crap and the "newer" stuff was even more crap. After watching him jump up and down to 'AIH', declaring it awesome, I enjoyed pointing out that not only was this 'new' Wire (ie: post EMI), but it was new new Wire in terms of messing with the old track. Made him pay attention for the rest of the set anyway... "What is Hear'Say? Something that sounds almost but not entirely completely unlike In Esse?" Heh -- maybe you should buy their album and find out :) "I think Colin was quite right to get pissed off with that band considering that they were going round telling the press he was their best mate when he'd never met them..." And nicked his riff, which was then used for the Superbowl and a few TV shows, like Trigger Happy TV... C ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 05:54:14 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Orbital In a message dated 19/07/01 19:58:08 GMT Daylight Time, xj23@yahoo.com writes: > Actually, Crass and Tool in the same track. I think it > works very well. > I like about half the cd. Far more than the last one. > But then again, what do we Yanks know about good > music? /////which crass track did they use? sounds interesting......p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 05:56:36 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] jap ebay In a message dated 19/07/01 20:25:56 GMT Daylight Time, RLynn 9 writes: > i actually found the japanese 3 cd set for Insiding/This Way/Shivering Man > (mispelled Shiverling Man..ahahaha) for $10.00 used at a local record/cd > //////very lucky , i've never seen one in the flesh. one went before on ebay for 70-80 dollars. i've got them all on vinyl so i'd only jump in if the price was right (half that maybe?) p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 06:05:35 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire, Corruption and Lies. In a message dated 20/07/01 03:22:02 GMT Daylight Time, timrobinson@cwcom.net writes: > To my ears some of the 80s Wire-Pop singles have a real New Order feel to > them especially Ahead and In Vivo. Yer man E.G.Lewis often uses that > twangy/chorused bass sound beloved of Mr Hook (as does Mr Newman on his > solo outings)...was there a mutual appreciation? ////the astoria 88 gig got a rave review in sounds/MM but the NME did a hatchet job accusing wire of plagiarising NO and doing it for the cash. read like the journo was trying hard to get himself noticed , funy how i've forgotten his name. p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:13:34 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: buggles versus coil In a message dated 17/07/01 12:38:16 GMT Daylight Time, hspencer@oup.co.uk writes: > The xmas issue of the Wire had John Balance's > balanced view on the best and worst of 2000, which contained some sort > of diatribe against women singers - not enough in itself to convict > them, but part of an increasingly damning body of evidence. I've always > lumped them in too with the likes of the death in June, who are > politically beyond the pale as far as I am concerned. These outfits seem > to me to be more about a pseudo religious cultishness than music /////real shame with DIJ. musically i thought they really had something (early on) but the terrible flirting with fascist uniforms/imagery was pretty laughable. not sure how much of a fascist ol' douglas really was , he did actually fire somebody from the first line up for being too right wing (cue rather obvious joke....). always seemed a bit more like he enjoyed camping it up rather than having any real point to make. i think they're still going , making really expensive limited edition releases to milk their ever-decreasing fanbase. anyone here ever see TG? what did peter christopherson actually do onstage? just curious.p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:26:50 -0500 From: "David McKenzie" Subject: [idealcopy] Re:Jim O'Rourke & The Death of Cool also check out JO with robert hampson - indicate on our favorite visualist label, touch give a miss to cynthia dall - i won't speculate - suffice it to say a mediochre album and an even less impressive live performer my biggest problem with JO is that he is so prolific that he produces more material in a given direction than i always have time for but any appreciator of van dyke parks can be nothing but cool on the MoM tip been a great fan since pickung up a copy of vulvaland in the budget bin some years ago i find them to be all that ae fans claim of their faves and in performance they raise the bar for knob-twiddlers everywhere i would lump them with television and wire as transcendant of their 'scene' (in other words, i expect them to be heavilly name-checked in 20 years as well) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:53:35 -0700 (PDT) From: eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) Subject: [idealcopy] Re: The The Robert wrote: <> Soul Mining has always been one of my favorite albums. I spent a lot of time in high school art class with that one in the Walkman. :-) I'm also awaiting the release of The Pornography of Despair. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:52:48 +0100 From: "Ian B" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT) Erasure - ----- Original Message ----- From: > HEY! what's wrong with (Vince Clarke) Erasure?...Erasure is a good solid Pop > group who write good solid pop songs Maybe I was being a bit harsh lumping them in with the others. I've had to buy some real howlers for my partner and the list escaped me at the time of writing(perhaps Roxette might have been more germain to the point). Erasure got played to death by her in our early days of liberty, so some of that stuff has stuck with me - made some good memories with that as a soundtrack although I personally had/have no desire to listen to them. She's never 'got' Wire though, or indeed much of the stuff I listen to. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:06:58 -0400 From: Creaig Dunton Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: buggles versus coil PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > /////real shame with DIJ. musically i thought they really had something > (early on) but the terrible flirting with fascist uniforms/imagery was pretty > laughable. not sure how much of a fascist ol' douglas really was , he did > actually fire somebody from the first line up for being too right wing (cue > rather obvious joke....). always seemed a bit more like he enjoyed camping it > up rather than having any real point to make. i think they're still going , > making really expensive limited edition releases to milk their > ever-decreasing fanbase. > Considering that Douglas' old band Crisis was supposedly ultra left-wing (have not heard them myself), I've always taken the fascist comments with a grain of salt...besides, I'd heard his explanation both as having a genuine historical interest in the time period, and the other as him having a particular fetish for a man in a Nazi/SS uniform. As for their music, well I think it's pretty spotty..a few catchy pop songs ("Runes and Men" for example), but a lot of repetitious dreck. The earlier work is more interesting by far. And they're still going, got their latest _All Pigs Must Die_ last week...worth it just for the silly cover and to hear what a gothic folk Mariachi band would sound like ;) - --Creaig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 00:35:06 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Cool Esse Television Cranks Eric defined cool >>>>Bruce Mau defines cool as "Conservatism dressed in black." I tend to agree. Then alas I'm not a cool person. Sometimes I wear red socks and carry a red or yellow carrier bag. Is that chic & in vogue? And I must confess to white T-shirts too! But we all know my tastes are very conservative! But what does "Conservatism dressed in black" entail exactly? Craig's definition of noise seemed odd to me >>>>Noise with a level of composition I can handle and appreciate (some Dome, GPS, even MZUI to a certain extent) I think GPS improvised rather than composed the Disobey performances. Aside from '7 Year' by Dome I wouldn't define any of these as noise, although any music seems to be noise to an unreceptive mind. I'm not suggesting that you have an unreceptive mind, as having listened to 'In Esse' this is clearly not the case. But why do you assume that there is any less composition going on for 'In Esse' than for GPS or MZUI? I don't recall Bruce ever stating that it was all done randomly, although it might seem or even be that way! I prefer not to know. But towards the end of Soli it does sound like he could be fiddling with a radio dial shoved through several distortion pedals (or maybe it's one of those CD players that you can rotate the CD by a dial). I saw Bruce do a performance at the Parallel Series night which was very much in the vein of Soli (prior to release of In Esse), but only about fifteen minutes long. He was pushing sounds through racks & racks of distortion pedals and it was over too soon for my liking... Paul Kendall did Piquet with only empty boots on stage... and a Russian played percussion on his teeth! >>>>the sort of static that 'In Esse' offers isn't much different to turning on a detuned TV and whacking the volume up. Perhaps... but if you fiddle about with a TV or radio will you get something identical to Soli? What are all those voices saying? Is there a guitar in there or just distortion pedals? Maybe you should try doing a Beekeeper on Soli! If you have WinAmp try cutting it up randomly (this also works nicely on some John Cage tracks and lots of other things). Patterns might emerge from the noise! >>>>As ever: everyone has different tastes, but this is probably the _only_ Wire or related release that just goes totally over my head. I just got the feeling that BG had writer's block or something when doing that disc... I feel similarly about He Said Take Care on which it appears Mr Lewis was really scraping the barrel having given all his best lyrics to Wire! Maybe one day I'll get round to a third listen! David liked >>>>tujiko noriko after hearing this and chicks on speed i think i will have to check into more from those mego folks If you haven't heard them, try the new Fennesz 'Endless Summer' CD and the Magic Sound of Fenn O'Berg. Not in the same vein as the above perhaps, but well worth a listen! Ian remembered a Television cover >>>>Chrome Cranks' version of 'Little Johnny Jewel' being a good one i remember...Graeme? Yeah, great band and Bob Bert is a good bloke & top drummer! I'd liken Chrome Cranks to the Scientists, only way more distorted & swampy. Quint also did a good cover of that supporting Shellac in Sheffield. The first time I heard Television was Echo & the Bunnymen covering Friction (quite well). Also heard the Banshees little Johnny Jewel cover before hearing the original - same goes for all the songs on their covers album except the one from the jungle book! Actually when I heard Gun by John Cale for the first time it bugged me for months that I'd heard it before but a different version, as I'd completely forgotten the Banshees album by that point. Blah Blah Blah... Oh no it's not the same! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:59:12 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire, Corruption and Lies. Tim, >>On the subject of NO, I'm interested in the Wire connection. First time I heard mention of Wire was I think in a New Order biog in my teens Presumably Wire Mk#1 played with Joy Division? << Actually, they never shared a bill. Bear in mind Wire's peak UK gigging period was 77-78 while JD's was 79. Wire spent much of 79 playing in Europe - and after July 79 Wire Mk1 only played 5 more gigs (4x Jeanette Cochrane in 11/79 and the Electric Ballroom in 2/80). >>Did Ian dig Wire and Vice Versa? They certainly had a lot in common musically and in terms of graphics and presentation. Was there much crosstalk, or did they not want to play with the boys from the rough estate?! >> Undoubtedly JD copped a lot of their style from Wire, though I've no direct evidence (quotes etc) of any stated influence (like, say, with the cure, where Robert Smith puts the change in his band's sound between the first and second albums down to supporting Wire.....) Wire played Manchester at least 5 times between 77 and 79 so you could be sure that a scene "face" like Peter Hook would have seen most of those... Most of the later comparions really centred around the clear similarity between Graham's bass line on Ahead and Hooky's on Temptation. Hardly My Sweet Lond, and frankly lazy journalism in its day. << Click above for interesting set list by IC favourites New Order's recent Liverpool Gig. Opened with Atmosphere, thats an interesting way to start a show! I can't believe they played Love Vigilantes and Your Silent Face, almost wish I'd gone now! But surely Blue Monday encore is not necessary unless playing to a....er....Festival Crowd? (c) SpinalTap I believe at least one of us was there, any reports from the front line?<< Well, indeed I was there. My first NO gig since 1985, in fact. If you're expecting the new album to be some form of lame electro-pop (like Republic), prepare for a shock. New Order 2001 is a giant, three-axe rock monster. Plus Hooky on bass. The five new songs previewed were cut from the same cloth - basic, loud, two-chord, up-tempo rockers with a wall of guitars courtesy of Barney, an overawed-looking Billy Corgan and Phil Cunningham (ex of crap Manc Britpoopsters Marion) as Gillian. This is what we got, over nearly two hours.... 'Atmosphere' 'Slow Jam' 'Crystal' 'Regret' 'Love Vigilantes' 'Isolation' 'Your Silent Face' 'Turn My Way' 'Close Range' 'Touched By The Hand Of God' 'Bizarre Love Triangle' 'Temptation' 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' encore 'Ruined In A Day' '60 Miles Per Hour' 'Blue Monday' Old-time NO followers need to brace themselves for is Barney's ...ahem...audience rapport, which includes whooping and punching the air mid-song (eg during Atmosphere!!). They've come a long way from whwn all you got was Hooky threatening to rip our fookin' heads off. Blue Monday was introduced by Barney saying something like - "I'm going to let Hooky sing this beacause I'm fookin' sick of it...only joking". It was a greatest hits show. BM is their biggest hit. So it got played. I guess it's NO's Drill, in some ways. And I think Hooky likes twatting those syndrums. Atmosphere worked the best of the three JD songs played (Isolation was the dance version played in 98, LWTUA sounded all wrong, being played in a different key to suit Barney's voice.) The 80s NO stuff was perless - proof of NO's standing as a singles band without parallel. I'd have liked more album odd-balls (like Sunrise, or Weirdo, or Leave me Alone). Perhaps a Wire-like re-assessment of what works from the back catalogue in a modern idiom would produce interesting results. For now, they seemed to be having a ball running through Regret, Love Vigilantes, Temptation etc.... All that and the well is not dry....can't really expect much more... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 20:13:19 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Cool Esse Television Cranks Graeme, I *think* it's achieved by wiring up effect pedals the wrong way - I did once achieve a very similar effect by doing something wrong (can't exactly remember how - something like taking the input into the amp!) The sound was controllable by fiddling with the knobs on the pedals. Mark << Perhaps... but if you fiddle about with a TV or radio will you get something identical to Soli? What are all those voices saying? Is there a guitar in there or just distortion pedals? >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 23:12:28 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Another Shit Shot to Theory Dr. Timothy Leary, via Robert Anton Wilson, had a theory about brain/conciousness imprinting. In short, Leary posited that the brain was vunerable to various sorts of imprints at various times in its development. One very powerful time was first sexual experiences, and since our generation tends to play pop/rock/punk/postpunk/indie/postindie/grunge/postgrunge/rave/postrave during mating activites, it is those musics that get imprinted and stay with us through the rest of our adult lives as favorite/special music. Look at your own histories and see if it applies. - Steve. G _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 23:30:21 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Another Shit Shot to Theory hmmmm music imprinted during our early copulations... love the thot...for me then it'd be Earth Wind & Fire, The Ohio Players, George Clinton, Parliament, The Commodores. In my high school in the mid 70's I was one of the 25% minority whites, the majority was black. So...when in Rome :) The funny thing was the attitude of my parents; they are both from Ireland. Me Da's feelings were blacks had only been persecuted a few hundred years, compared to a thousand for the Irish, rookies they were so he gave them no mind. Now, if'd I'd brought an English girl home...well there'd have been hell to pay! ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #222 *******************************