From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #220 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, July 19 2001 Volume 04 : Number 220 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? ["wiremailorder.com" ] [idealcopy] Bruce [Wireviews ] Re: [idealcopy] Blumfeld and Trio ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] Television covers ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] Ab Ovo & In Esse & ELpH [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] [idealcopy] latst night i mostly listened to>... [kevin eden Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? > yesterday/today), is that progression was made in the 80's & 90's through > improved technology. i'm mainly thinking of the cutpaste/glitch merchants > here,i'm pretty sure it affected all music right across the > board, if only > in basic recording technique and reproduction... I'll second this. That is the same reason that "progressive" musics died in the late 70s - technology. c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:35:45 -0500 From: "david mack" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: lyrics and gadgets i don't know - i prefer the shortform joke generator Q: WHAT DO VIRGIN USE FOR GUITAR GODS? A: ENVIRONMENTALISTS The lyrics iprove with a few passes through babblefish :) on the tovey tip: i recall an interview where tovey claimed it was always about 'folk music' , i also recall vince clarke making a similar statment, but don't recall which i saw first. and 'worried man in a second hand suit' is an image i will relish forever ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 05:19:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Bruce Michael writes: WV wrote: >>a great recording -- but noise for noise's sake >>doesn't turn me on. >I don't think that's what it is, but I'll admit that >I probably can't convince you otherwise. I'm always >very aware of the man controlling the noise, I liked the coneptual ideas -- whizzing round London roundabouts with his stuff blaring out of the window (or was that the Shed stuff?) However, 'In Esse' did absolutely nothing to me apart from iritate. Noise with a level of composition I can handle and appreciate (some Dome, GPS, even MZUI to a certain extent), but the sort of static that 'In Esse' offers isn't much different to turning on a detuned TV and whacking the volume up. As ever: everyone has different tastes, but this is probably the _only_ Wire or related release that just goes totally over my head. I just got the feeling that BG had writer's block or something when doing that disc... >Or maybe not. That's part of what I like about >ambiguous art: the endlessness of interpretation. >I should add that I'm not saying that anyone who >doesn't like In Esse doesn't like ambiguous art, >but would hope that those of that bent would agree >that In Esse is an "open" work--the same might be >said of the 2 MZUI pieces, which I like very much. I'd agree that it's possibly open to interpretation, but I judge it on the basis of a solo object on a CD, as a listening experience. Maybe in a gallery as part of an installation this release would work, but otherwise, _for me_, 'In Esse' fails woefully short of the mark. I suppose it does produce one reaction in me - -- that of slight annoyance -- but it's not nearly as evocative as most of Gilbert's other work. Noise is static is noise? Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:28:05 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Blumfeld and Trio Frank wrote :- >A one hit wonder ??? Absolutely not. >Trio had several hits, at least in Germany. well i was talking from a UK perspective!! >And Blumfeld released several albums... again, only really aware of 'L'etat et moi' in the UK... wasn't there a connection with Blur at this time...? >...and a new one just last week cool :-) ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:18:48 -0500 From: "ray\)\(o\)\(mac" Subject: [idealcopy] today i am listening to: jun miyake - innocent bossa in the mirror with arto lindsay , vinicius cantuaria the japanese obsession with brazillian music is a beautiful thing and miyake pikcs some ace collaborators indeed as tears go by is even more haunting in portugese tujiko noriko after hearing this and chicks on speed i think i will have to check into more from those mego folks vic chesnut - left to his own devices an american treasure hi-posi 4n5 recommended for those who like the kahimi karie breathy little girl style of vocals various televison cover songs from TV listmembers (THEY actually are working on their second CD) impressive considering that i have always considered television uncoverable a few of the treatments are very valid, and a couple are awfully close to the original (and a couple are just awful - it wouldn't be a covers comp without them) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:42:42 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Television covers >david wrote :- >various televison cover songs from TV listmembers >(THEY actually are working on their second CD) >impressive considering that i have always considered television uncoverable >a few of the treatments are very valid, and a couple are awfully close to >the original(and a couple are just awful - it wouldn't be a covers comp >without them) Chrome Cranks' version of 'Little Johnny Jewel' being a good one i remember...Graeme? ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:44:18 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Television covers >various televison cover songs from TV listmembers >(THEY actually are working on their second CD) >impressive considering that i have always considered television uncoverable >a few of the treatments are very valid, and a couple are awfully close to >the original >(and a couple are just awful - it wouldn't be a covers comp without them) ....or was that Number One Cup......???????????? (Little Johnny Jewel...) ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:56:33 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Ab Ovo & In Esse & ELpH Robert asked >>>>has anyone on these boards ever listened to Bruce Gilbert's Ab Ovo and In Esse all the way through in one sitting?.... Many times. Ab Ovo is my favourite 'solo Wire' release; in fact it changed my listening habits quite dramatically as before that & Bruce's Beekeeping I was pretty much unaware of electroacoustic music & musique concrete (of course we all know from reading these emails that I only listen to such music by the likes of Pierre Henry, Robert Normandeau, Francis Dhomont, Gilles Gobeil, Luc Ferrari, Etc. because Charles Snider thinks that I think they're cool, and not because I actually like them!) Ab Ovo is his masterpiece, and In Esse pushes his interest in distortion about as far as he'll probably be able to take it, although you never can tell with Bruce. When I spoke to him in Edinburgh he said he'd been exploring beautiful sounds but didn't know yet if he had anything for the third in the trilogy. Perhaps the definition of a 'beautiful sound' is one that isn't exactly concrete (excuse the pun) but if his DJ spots at the Labradford festival of drifting were anything to go by, then In Esse part 2 isn't round the corner, but I wouldn't try to second guess the Beekeeper! Try playing Ab Ovo & In Esse at the same time, as loud as your stereo permits, then do it with Ab Ovo on random play. Then make loops out of Soli if your CD player or computer can do that. I loved Ab Ovo from the first decisive drone and was lucky enough to get hold of a prerelease tape a while before it came out, and I wore the tape out! I've had a lot of fun playing multiple tracks and loops, especially with 'The Singing Pier' which also crops up on a Blast First compilation. Now listening to a (for example) Vince Clarke or Paul Weller or Jethro Tull album all the way through is something I find quite difficult... Check out my website for lengthier opinions the first 2 in the Gilbert latin trilogy & an interview with Bruce from Disobey at the Hacienda http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine/BCGILBERT.htm Craig on In Esse >>>>If I want static, I'll detune my radio. Afterwards try tuning it to a station that plays Robert Palmer. Then you won't need your Vien CD either! Alistair asked about ELpH >>>>That would be Emmerson, Lake, Palmer, right? but who is the 'h' ? No it would be everyone's favourite alleged misogynists Coil, who also record under the name ELpH when the music is channeled to them by alien entities from other dimensions. This particular CD was the 12th in a series of 12 which the Raster-Noton label put out at the rate of one a month in 1999 and I got 3 of them - - this amazing thing, the rather disappointing Ryoji Ikeda one (but everything else I've heard from him is wonderful) and another excellent one from Ilpo Vasainen (of Pan Sonic). The Carsten Nicolai & Mika Vainio ones are probably well worth tracking down too. In fact they probably all are. Actually I got that particular ELpH CD in Edinburgh the day Wire played, which is a nice bit of synchronicity, considering both Wire & Coil would have done installations at the Vernacular if the licensing hadn't been a problem. There's an interview with John Balance of Coil which explains ELpH somewhere on this website - http://www.forteantimes.com John complicated things >>>>Insecurity regarding sexual identity? Works for both 'heteros' and 'homos'. In which case the whole need to conform to a 'hetero' or 'homo' stereotype needs to be re-examined. For the record I proceed from the pov that neither 'gay' or 'straight' is 'normal' and complicate things from there. Can it be that there is really no such thing as 'sexual identity' but only sexual acts and thoughts? If so no wonder those who strive continually to maintain such an identity are insecure! Are you level? Graeme np KK Null & Jim O'Rourke - New Kind of Water (Charnel) ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:59:25 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Pil Dub Germans Mark said >>>>Even with PiL, the dub influence is so twisted as to be unrecognisable. Are you joking? Jah Wobble's bass lines sound very recognisably dub influenced to me. But I'd go along with this: Even with PiL, Levene's Yes influence is so twisted as to be unrecognisable. Mark asked >>>>Are there any decent new German bands? New(ish), well newer than Neubauten: To Rococo Rot (who I recall you didn't care for) Pluramon Kreidler Tarwater C-Schulz & Hajsch Oval Mouse On Mars Microstoria Schlammpeitziger Rechenzentrum Kammerflimmer Kollektief Thomas Koner Porter Ricks Monolake Thomas Brinkmann Thomas Heckman Tied & Tickled Trio Village of Savoonga Lithops Alec Empire Caspar Brotzmann ...and Faust are still kicking it better than ever... There are many more but these are just some that I've heard and liked, although you might define them as 'techno' or 'experimental' rather than 'rock', many of these were influenced by Kraftwerk, Can, Faust & Neu! And I'd also like to hear a big hand for German electroacoustic composer Howard Munz whose pieces comprising (1) mutated cut ups of the Goebels Total War speech and (2) all of Beethovens symphonies playing at the same time, I recently taped off Hear & Now on Radio 3. The Pelicanneck shop might be a good place to look for German music in the UK http://www.pelicanneck.com Mark remarked >>>>Faust is tougher going - it all sounds very jammed - - though like Neu! and Can it's refreshingly free of the prog stylings that plagued British rock from the same period. Actually a lot of the best Can material was edited from jams. Holger Czukay edited down hours of tapes for Tago Mago, which sounds as jammed as Faust if not more so! Perhaps the fact that it doesn't sound jammed to you is testament to Czukay's editing skill? Mark on his travels >>>>In Berlin recently I visited WOM (like a German Tower or Virgin Megastore) and there was hardly any Krautrock to be had. The Manchester branch of the Virgin Megastore isn't exactly overflowing with the Kosmische sounds that set Kevin & Charles drums buzzing either! You'd be better off looking in Picadilly records for that kind of stuff here. Lock up your hats! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:22:31 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] The Future Ian pondered the effect >>>>I don't listen to Coil's records, although I do have some of their stuff knocking around on tape. But this is for no other reason than I have too little free time (I genuinely envy the people on the list who seem to have the time and resource to listen to vast quantities of music on a daily basis) I don't hold the rumour against them. Rumours should not indeed diminish the effect of the music. But that's an intersting point - possibly previously debated. If, for the sake of argument, the rumour *were* true, would this at least *alter* - if not diminish the effect of their records? (A wider question than the Coil speculation) Would it be 'in poor taste' to mention the (fairly crap) Non album 'Might' (Mute) on which a tape of a woman being raped is supposedly used on one track? It doesn't exactly diminish the effect, but it certainly makes the track a more uncomfortable listen when you know that. In fact my copy ended up in a secondhand shop some time ago, but mostly because I found it quite boring & depressing. Still like the album he did with Frank Tovey though. Interesting that John brings Burroughs up. I make nojudgements as to his misogyny, but I think at one point he described women as a 'biological mistake'. In the book 'The Wild Boys' he imagines a world in which there are no women and men reproduce without them. The thing is that science is proving otherwise and with artificial insemination and genetic engineering and cloning going on it's much more likely that firstly... 1. Men will become extinct. 2. Women will devolve to the point where there is no 'new' hereditary genetic material. 3. These women will become (physically) asexual beings. 4. The human race will begin to die out slowly. 5. They will send numerous expeditions back in time in UFO's to the era when genetic experiments began to shift the human race to one sex trajectory in order to hijack extinct genetic material. This explains the 'alien abduction' phenomenon. 6. Coil's ELpH recordings will slowly reveal through channeling from these future beings the way to avert disaster, and the future beings will shift into another dimension. 7. Or maybe not. This doesn't actually answer your question really, but was much more fun to write about! >>>>Heard anything by Sutcliffe Jugend? Where were they coming from? A less talented place than Coil. The beings of the future do not speak to them! Lock up your hats! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:23:45 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Another Theory Shot to Shit >>>>1. You listen to what you grew up with. I listen to whatever I like, not what your theory tells me I can listen to. I didn't grow up listening to Pierre Henry or Can or Steve Reich or Albert Ayler or Last Exit but have listened to them quite frequently over the last 5 years. How many people reading this heard Wire for the first time when they were over 18? >>>50yo guys into "micro-house"? Suspect. Why? What is the cut off age for "micro-house"? >>>18yo kids into Motown? Suspect. Why? >>>Of course there are exceptions, especially for the well rounded afficiandos on this list, but in general, you don't find many Elvis fans that were born after he kicked... There are so many exceptions that this theory is probably worthless. >>>2. Most innovation in "rock/pop" music occured in the sixties and seventies. Depends how you define "rock/pop". >>>Again, you could shoot this down like a Big Les Zeppelin, but that era was unbeget with much history. Most Prog rockers were R&B kids. Go figure. Did R&B have no history then? >>>3. Many people listen to music because they think its cool not because they like it. Want proof? Read this digest. How do you presume to know why anyone on Ideal Copy listens to what they listen to unless they specifically state the reason? This is the height of arrogance. I think we all listen to music that we like or we'd be a bunch of morons. If you can find any solid proof otherwise feel free to quote it! >>>Why I re-evaluate crap stadium dinosaur plod rock? Drum roll, it's what I like. And lordy knows I ain't cool! Well, certainly not if you listen to only things you grew up with! But you don't, unless the Thousand label was a hallucination! The theme to Dr Who (first single I bought) still sounds good to me though. 'Re-evaluate' away! Is evaluation cool or uncool? I've never considered myself to be 'cool' either, for what it's worth. What is 'cool' anyway? It's such a subjective & variable & nebulous concept. Some people think it's cool to wear baseball caps reversed! How's your trip? Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:22:55 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Another Theory Shot to Shit In a message dated 18/07/01 20:29:31 GMT Daylight Time, crackedmachine@yahoo.co.uk writes: > The theme to Dr Who (first single > I bought) still sounds good to me though. > 'Re-evaluate' away! Is evaluation cool or uncool? > > That was an excellent choice Graeme.Orbital's version on their new album is a cracker & it was the high spot of their gig I saw in Cambridge in May.The kids loved it. NP.Last Exit featuring Sonny Sharrock/Bill Laswell Peter Brotzman/Ronald Shannon Jackson - bloody superb ! chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:30:09 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] jammin' on a rainy day... stuck indoors on a rainy day with a jammed knee and a sprained ankle i suffered while footballing indoors last night....However, all is not lost because i have great music to listen to: Plug - Drum and Bass For Papa Higher Intelligence Agency - Colurform Frank Tovey & Boyd Rice _ Music For the Hard of Hearing (thanks for reminding me of this dandy Graeme!!!) Bruce Gilbert - Ab Ovo (thanks again Graeme...not as bad as i remember) Aphex Twin - I Care Because You Do ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:09:25 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Another Theory Shot to Shit Graeme Rowland: I've never considered myself to be 'cool' either, for what it's worth. What is 'cool' anyway? //////////////////////// Bruce Mau defines cool as "Conservatism dressed in black." I tend to agree. Eric in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 01:32:21 +0100 From: Tim Subject: [idealcopy] Grooningen Pink Flag >Jan Noorda Wrote: >For details of the Pink Flag evening in Vera look at their web-site: >www.vera-groningen.nl. I was curious to see what was happening, but cannot translate the text. Anyone care to assist? Funnily enough I shall be Amsterdam later this week (for a stag-party...gulp!)....can Jan or anyone recommend any good record shops or indeed clubs if I need a respite from the nonsense? >Heard for the first time the Boss-remix of Silo last seven inch on Swim. Don't >miss this. Indeed. Those of you that enjoyed Colin's Twelve Times U will like this...same formula applied to a Silo tune. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 00:47:27 -0700 (PDT) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] latst night i mostly listened to>... Jon Hassell - Dream Theory In Malaya Jon Hassell - Vertical Collection Jon Hassell - Fascinoma ===== kevin eden wmo limited, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk e-mail: wmouk@yahoo.com web: www.wiremailorder.com "dreams that money can buy" Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #220 *******************************