From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #219 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, July 18 2001 Volume 04 : Number 219 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] last night i was mostly listening to.... [kevin eden ] [idealcopy] Re:[ot] associates ["david mack" ] [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] [idealcopy] Re: > ELpH ["david mack" ] [idealcopy] Re: buggles versus coil [Howard Spencer ] [idealcopy] Wire taking the piss [Wireviews ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: > ELpH [John Roberts ] Re: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: buggles versus coil ["Jerry @ Vane Recordings" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off ["dan bailey" ] [idealcopy] Solo Bruce [Michael Flaherty ] [idealcopy] In Esse [Michael Flaherty ] [idealcopy] I know where Mark E Smith gets his lyrics ["Dr.volume" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 02:20:41 -0700 (PDT) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] last night i was mostly listening to.... No German music. But... Laraaji - Shiva Shakti Groove Brother Ah / Laraaji - Open Sky ===== kevin eden wmo limited, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk e-mail: wmouk@yahoo.com web: www.wiremailorder.com "dreams that money can buy" Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:36:20 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide It Seems > Just heard these two for the first time. > So how were these records recieved at the time? I think CS was quite well received in the weeklies. I've not heard IS but I have a vague recollection of a review in MM at the time, which likened it to a wooden washing machine - the point being (I think) that it was quite a pleasing curio but with little practical use or long term staying power. Ian Commercial Suicide was about Colin & Malka trying to find a new musical concept, which didn't involve the use of the traditional rhythm section. The choice of acoustic/classical instruments playing repetitive patterns still appeals for me today, as are the songs themselves. It's hard for me to regard this album objectively 'cause it was the first CN solo which I bought when it was released and it was also Colin's first musical collaboration with Malka after his production of Minimal Compact, so I guess it would always hold a special meaning for me. You can find echoes of their later collaborative work in both albums. It Seems is not as good as CS but I still like it anyway. What sounds today as dated MIDI sequencer work was quite innovative at its time - I remember it was the first album where I realised that some parts were programmed and later played by a MACHINE - sounds completely naff today, but with all the synth stuff I ever heard till then, you could feel the human touch, while here it was quiite obvious that this wasn't played by anyone flesh and blood. And it does maintain the same kind of European atmosphere CS had - only a bit less decisive about what it actually wants to be. Still crucial for any Malka/Colin fan, I think, and even today, judging by listmembers views that were just recently exposed to it, after a few times listening it does get better. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 06:09:16 -0500 From: "david mack" Subject: [idealcopy] Re:[ot] associates sulk was a defining moment in 'over-the-top' i would generally say that no-one should even attempt to cover billie holiday - but billie mac pulled it off and that is probably the least of the thrills the american version was an abortion of track reselection and remix which emasculated (irony intentional) the whole of it leaving only the wrapper the first cd reissue (german i think) followed warner america's lead , but added a few extra tracks and the recent reissue restores it to it's former glory with bonus tracks (there's a thread - bonus tracks good/bad?) this is not to slight the affectionate punch (still waiting for the original on cd) and fourth drawer down blue soap anyone? beyond the sun has it's moments as does outernational not sure about the double hipness re-issue i was all charged for it, but don't listen much (probably because i buy way more stuff than i have time to absorb) of alan rankine's solo stuff, i kept one disc of 'the world begins to look it's age' and for the true glamour chasers who love everything, blair booth has a number of new-ish tracks on mp3.com (nothing startling) and e. howard hunt has dissappeared from my view (not that i have looked all that hard) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:16:09 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off Probably not Graham's cup of tea but..... Culled from Sideline.com >>>Fad Gadget is to be the support act ('special guest') for Depeche Mode during the European leg of the "Exciter" tour (some dates are excluded). C The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 06:23:59 -0500 From: "david mack" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: > ELpH >>> Graeme bin listening to:- >>> elph - 20' to 2000 >>> http//www.brainwashed.com/coil >> That would be Emmerson, Lake, Palmer, right? but who is the 'h' ? > No, that would be which is a Coil side-project. and i was hoping for Alan Holdsworth (tongue firmly in cheek) humour aside, a disturbing thought occurred to me reading the coil/misogeny thread do folks truly think you have to desire someone to hate them? and someone , whilst touching on w.s. burroughs' misogeny, mentioned his sholt-lived marriage, but omitted the circumstances of it's dissolution. he drilled her between the eyes in mexico during an alchoholic recreation of william tell with (i beleive) a martini taking the place of the apple and a smith and wession substituting for the bow and arrow. those familiar with mr. burroughs know that he was not a sloppy marksman. burroughs' collaborator in the cut-up method, brion gysin was also a pronounced misogynist (and gay) i manage to absorb both their works quite well, skipping the (personally) distasteful parts the rest is so important ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 12:28:53 +0100 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: buggles versus coil >Daft Punk sound like the Buggles. End of story. 8-) Good call. But I presume this is intended as a damming criticism, in which case I have to differ. >Then there's the argument that even if Coil are misogynist does this detract from their music? Sorry, late in on this thread - but it is certainly enough to put me off, along with all that New Age Voodoo nonsense and spelling words with an unncessary `k'. The xmas issue of the Wire had John Balance's balanced view on the best and worst of 2000, which contained some sort of diatribe against women singers - not enough in itself to convict them, but part of an increasingly damning body of evidence. I've always lumped them in too with the likes of the death in June, who are politically beyond the pale as far as I am concerned. These outfits seem to me to be more about a pseudo religious cultishness than music. I may be missing a treat, of course, but from what I've heard I doubt it. Btw Graeme, it is Brian *Cant* (not Kant) and apparently he is childphobystic, being known to moan about `bloody kids' after his gigs (true story). Howard (riding on the monorail) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 04:53:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Wire taking the piss "Personally I have absolutely no problems with Justine or the Elastica project and I like the music." Bruce Gilbert (NME.COM) Yeah, whatever. Anyone else think that he was taking the piss with this? I agree with Graeme on this: their '12XU' is bloody awful, as is their 'Three Girl Rhumba'. I also remember a Select interview where a certain Mr. Newman said (with tongue firmly in cheek) that there is "no such thing as credible pop"... C ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 05:23:34 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: > ELpH > humour aside, a disturbing thought occurred to me > reading the coil/misogeny > thread > do folks truly think you have to desire someone to > hate them? Or do you mean to hate them is to desire them? What is desire? Are you talking in the usual sense of the word or psychoanalytically? > and someone , whilst touching on w.s. burroughs' > misogeny, mentioned his > sholt-lived marriage, but omitted the circumstances > of it's dissolution. > he drilled her between the eyes in mexico during an > alchoholic recreation of > william tell with (i beleive) a martini taking the > place of the apple and a > smith and wession substituting for the bow and > arrow. > those familiar with mr. burroughs know that he was > not a sloppy marksman. > burroughs' collaborator in the cut-up method, brion > gysin was also a > pronounced misogynist (and gay) > i manage to absorb both their works quite well, > skipping the (personally) > distasteful parts > the rest is so important 1. WSB was found not guilty of murder. 2. I didn't omit the details on purpose but for sake of brevity. There are a number of points that worry me in your mail: 1. Are you suggesting that because WSB was gay meant that he hated his wife and deliberately shot her? If you've read anything on WSB you'll know that he worshipped her - mainly on an intellecutal level granted. 2. What is 'distasteful' in WSB or Gysin's work? It's literature isn't it? - not reality. If you follow your line of reasoning then Wire singing about rape is 'distasteful' also. I appreciate that in WSB's case that his sexual preferences when he was in Tangiers are rather suspect (i.e. teenage boys) and I'm not defending him there but I'm concerned that the only gay people actively discussed on this list are those with paedophiliac and/or mysogynistic tendencies - - as if this was the norm with gay people. It's a nasty stereotype to attach to any group of people and it's factually incorrect. Regards John Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:48:20 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off that's great !!(if true)...i love Fad Gadget....elektro sicko! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:57:56 +0100 From: "Jerry @ Vane Recordings" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: buggles versus coil Oh come on. I have two kids who I love dearly but refer to as bloody kids on occasion. Surely anyone at all experienced with the prospect of entertaining large numbers of children is entitled to this view? j > Btw Graeme, it is Brian *Cant* (not Kant) and apparently he is > childphobystic, being known to moan about `bloody kids' after his gigs > (true story). > > Howard (riding on the monorail) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:06:19 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? fernando wrote :- >However, some music today seems to be >just as inventive... but harder to find than in the 60s due to the >plurality in sources... so as long as you do not begin to claim that >most good musicians in rock were in the 60s... the obvious point in this thread (i haven't read all the emails from yesterday/today), is that progression was made in the 80's & 90's through improved technology. i'm mainly thinking of the cutpaste/glitch merchants here,i'm pretty sure it affected all music right across the board, if only in basic recording technique and reproduction... ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 10:07:19 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off interesting that tovey has (apparently) gone back to synths & such. his last 3 releases that i'm aware of were quite folkish -- tyranny & the hired hand, grand union & worried men in second-hand suits. that's going back, god, something like a decade & a half. pretty good stuff, actually (love his version of sam hall on tyranny, along with cities of the plain on grand union), though i haven't listened to worried men enough to form any sort of impression. wonder if his "creative vision" has returned to techno-based stuff or if he realized the importance of eating. or both. dan >that's great !!(if true)...i love Fad Gadget....elektro sicko! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 11:25:16 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off has he reverted back to the Fad Gadget alias??? has he released anything yet? LET ME KNOW! Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:25:40 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off I also have the 3 Tovey CDs. Not bad. Grand Union is probably the best one to pick up. I too wondered why he had switched on his keyboards again. I thought he'd made a permanent move to more organic instruments and songs. Didn't he move to a farm too? C "dan bailey" on 17/07/2001 16:07:19 To: "idealcopy" cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off interesting that tovey has (apparently) gone back to synths & such. his last 3 releases that i'm aware of were quite folkish -- tyranny & the hired hand, grand union & worried men in second-hand suits. that's going back, god, something like a decade & a half. pretty good stuff, actually (love his version of sam hall on tyranny, along with cities of the plain on grand union), though i haven't listened to worried men enough to form any sort of impression. wonder if his "creative vision" has returned to techno-based stuff or if he realized the importance of eating. or both. dan The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:45:26 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] this weekend i mostly listened to.... Krauts ??? >stephen graziano wrote :- >I quite liked the German band Blumfeld that put out an album about 5 years >back. (And I still like Trio - da da da) ha ha ha, nice one stephen. a 'one hit wonder, pop' classic!! Blumfeld's lp 'L'Etat Et Moi' (Big Cat Records) a fine lp, 'Eine eigene Geschichte' being the killer track, IMO!! ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:52:17 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off As far as I know Tovey is now in full-time Fad Gadget mode. He's been playing a few gigs but as far as I know no new releases. C RLynn9@aol.com on 17/07/2001 16:25:16 To: dpbailey@worldnet.att.net, idealcopy@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT This Will Piss Some Off has he reverted back to the Fad Gadget alias??? has he released anything yet? LET ME KNOW! Robert The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:08:05 +0200 From: "Jan Noorda" Subject: [idealcopy] Vera For details of the Pink Flag evening in Vera look at their web-site: www.vera-groningen.nl. There are fomer members of Groningen-based bands Kleg and Dandruff playing on their way the Pink Flag album on the 8th of August. Heard for the first time the Boss-remix of Silo last seven inch on Swim. Don't miss this. Dugga dugga dugga ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:38:11 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Solo Bruce >From: >> has anyone on these boards ever listened to Bruce Gilbert's Ab Ovo and In >> Esse all the way through in one sitting?....I have not done this yet....i >> find them harder to listen to than any of his earlier >stuff.....opinions??? >> >> Robert Well, first of all I've listened to both discs more times than I can begin to count. Ab Ovo in particular is one of my all time favorites. If you liked Bruce's "earlier stuff" (This Way/Shiv Man?), it's worth a full listen. >My first play of Ab Ovo was through headphones. I found it tough going. >Then again first plays for me are never the best. If it's something I'm >really looking forward to I always get impatient for the next track whilst >the 'current' one is playing. With Ab Ovo, subsequent plays have yet to >prove fruitful. I think Michael Flaherty (this list) advised that I should >listen to it as many times as it took for it to make sense. Perhaps its >time will come. I've never heard In Esse >Ian Sounds like something I might say. :) I find Ab Ovo very reflective (the title "Where did the Time Go?" seems particularly appropriate to me), and like all solo Bruce, your mood needs to be right. We are definitly not ready to rock. ;) All I'll add of In Esse is that if you find Ab Ovo tough listening, don't bother--yet, anyway. (Maybe never--this material simply isn't going to please everyone.) Michael Flaherty np: Sonic Youth: Goodbye 20th Century disc 2. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 17:56:10 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] In Esse >From: Wireviews >Subject: [idealcopy] In Esse/Ab Ovo As for 'In Esse', I did >listen to it all the way through twice, as is my >minimum for anything I review for the Web site. I then >gave it a partial 'sanity check' a few weeks later, >but still didn't really see the point. I'm all for >experimentation/improvisation -- GPS, for instance, is >a great recording -- but noise for noise's sake >doesn't turn me on. I don't think that's what it is, but I'll admit that I probably can't convince you otherwise. I'm always very aware of the man controlling the noise, and I feel a certain connection there--some sort of wordless communication. If Ab Ovo is reflection (and I'm not sure it is, but let's just say so), perhaps In Esse is confusion and modern-life insanity: the audio equivilant to paint for paint's sake. Or maybe not. That's part of what I like about ambiguous art: the endlessness of interpretation. I should add that I'm not saying that anyone who doesn't like In Esse doesn't like ambiguous art, but would hope that those of that bent would agree that In Esse is an "open" work--the same might be said of the 2 MZUI pieces, which I like very much. I also like "Outdoor Miner". :) Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:18:23 +0100 From: "Dr.volume" Subject: [idealcopy] I know where Mark E Smith gets his lyrics Generate your own Fall lyrics here: (Careful it sometimes generates naughty words due to teenage boy intervention) http://www.leonatkinson.com/random/index.php?SCREEN=lyrics ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] last night i mostly listened to.... Divination (Laraaji/Bill Laswell) - Sacrifice Laraaji/Audio Active - The Way in in the Way Out ===== kevin eden wmo limited, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk e-mail: wmouk@yahoo.com web: www.wiremailorder.com "dreams that money can buy" Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:02:54 +0200 From: Woerner Frank Subject: [idealcopy] Blumfeld and Trio >-----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- >Von: ian jackson [mailto:iansjackson@hotmail.com] >Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. Juli 2001 17:45 >An: sjgraziano@hotmail.com >Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org >Betreff: Re: [idealcopy] this weekend i mostly listened to.... Krauts >??? > > >>stephen graziano wrote :- >>I quite liked the German band Blumfeld that put out an album >about 5 years >>back. (And I still like Trio - da da da) > >ha ha ha, nice one stephen. a 'one hit wonder, pop' classic!! >Blumfeld's lp 'L'Etat Et Moi' (Big Cat Records) a fine lp, >'Eine eigene Geschichte' being the killer track, IMO!! A one hit wonder ??? Absolutely not. Trio had several hits, at least in Germany. And Blumfeld released several albums and a new one just last week. FrankfromBavaria ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #219 *******************************