From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #218 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, July 17 2001 Volume 04 : Number 218 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] OT - have a laff [Alistair Tear ] Re: [idealcopy] this weekend i mostly listened to.... Krauts ??? [MarkBu] [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? ["wiremailorder.com" ] Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? [fernando ] Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] this weekend i mostly listened to.... Krauts ??? ["stephe] [idealcopy] Multi-Topic: Here Come The Bounced Posts [Tim ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:01:09 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] OT - have a laff Listers, I give you this offer from my office classified ads section... >>>Two tickets to U2 in Munich for this Sunday 15th. Excellent seats paid #120 each, will accept #50 each or nearest offer. ladies and gennulmen that's 120 British Pounds!!!! oh dear.... later A ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:11:40 +0200 From: "bartvandamme@home" Subject: [idealcopy] Vera Groningen Wire covers A friend of mine who works at Vera, Groningen told me that there is planned for this summer a local band who are covering Wire. I am curious who they are, and which Wire they are copying. A "Groninger" band covering Wire?! This I have to see/hear! Can you find out wich band it is? And when's the gig? I always thought that my band "Ceiling" was the only Groninger band with a serious "Wire-connection"... [We also used to play the "Vera-kelderbar"] Cheers [missing] Bart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:47:54 +0000 From: dpbailey@att.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] last night i was mostly listening to: speaking of houses of the holy, which someone was, i must shame-facedly admit that only a couple of days after declaring here that led zep was one band i'd sworn never to allow in my house in any way, shape or form, i found out that my girlfriend had 2 copies of the cd, & since i love (as previously admitted) d'yer maker ... well, you can guess the rest. of course, turns out she's also got 2 copies of the eagles' hell freezes over, but that's the *other* band i *really* won't allow anywhere near my stereo. bad enough that i picked up the 7" of don henley's (i think) all she wants to do is dance back around '87. dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:51:00 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] re: associates - was omd live Howard S asked: >>Does anyone else here like the Associates? I've recently got into Sulk and fourth drawer down in a big way. Yup! I'll put my hand up...every so often a blast of Associates goes down a treat... mainly now I play 'Popera' the singles collection, which has a clutch of wonderful tunes, 'party fears two', 'club country', 'breakfast', 'love hangover' etc...(I think we're in for a posting about 80's style record production from the list tekkies !) Love Billy Mac's final record 'beyond the sun' too and was really sad to hear of his untimely death... Never saw the Associates live - nearest I got was a Billy Mac solo gig in St James' church, Piccadilly The setting was perfect for some semi acoustic bluesy/jazzy stuff but all rather fucked up by the addition of a loud, clunkin' rawk drummer... great voice though & a genuine gypsy spirit...god bless ps. check 'pain in any language' from Apollo 440's electro glide in blue hasta hats A ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:10:33 -0700 From: Mark Wilson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] re:Symptoms of "Well, er..." Alistair Tear wrote: > > Graeme bin listening to:- > >>elph - 20' to 2000 > http//www.brainwashed.com/coil > > That would be Emmerson, Lake, Palmer, right? but who is the 'h' ? No, that would be ELpH which is a Coil side-project. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:14:24 -0500 From: Johnathan Hegge Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide It Seems This brings up a question for me. I never was able to acquire Commercial Suicide on CD, though my brother had it at one time. Long story, never was able to get that copy. I've heard it and love it but I'd like to get my own copy. Anyone have a CD to part with or know a dealer that has a copy? I don't buy off ebay because of a bad experience. thanks Tim wrote: > > The sleeve of CS is terrific. Bruce had a hand in it I see. > Unlike the earlier LPs or Bastard the music is difficult to place. The only > reference point I can think of is Earwig (remember them?) as it has that > same tinkling, repetitive dreamy feel of their LPs ( but It predates that > band by several years). > > The overall feel is icy and windswept. Only the rather upfront vocals > prevent it from being pretty much an Eno-esque ambient record. The dronier > tracks remind me of Spirtualized more orchestral moments. > I agree with Wireviews point that perhaps more effort went into the > arrangements than the songwriting but I do like the interplay between Colin > and Malkas voicings and the string laden instrumentation is impressive > particularly on But I and the title track. Not at all bad actually. > To my ears, Philip Glass, Steve Reich and Wim Maertens were a big influence on CS and IS. But on these records Colin did something that stood out from the contemporary mainstream, which I don't feel his swim output manages to achieve. > > So how were these records recieved at the time? Was the title of Commerical > Suicide a self-fulflling prophecy? > Can't imagine It Seems would have made much impact at the height of Acid > House. Anyone recall any reviews? Were they just ignored? (Presumably the > nearby Wire releases hogged most of the attention) > CS was promoted quite vigorously. I remember seeing a review of it in a Uk hifi mag, which was a bit non-plussed. IS had a much lower profile...so perhaps CS did live up to its title. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 23:32:45 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] re,coil re : Coil mail, not that i've heard much of their stuff... but...they've always seemed well dodgy to me. a bunch of fucking wankers would be nearer to my personal opinion. ggggrrrrrr, ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:10:55 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] this weekend i mostly listened to.... Krauts ??? Frank, << Well, the last Neubauten album is titled "Silence is sexy" but almost all tracks have German lyrics. Is there an English version of this cd?<< No, I just noticed that a few of the tracks were in English. >> Our youth listens to Rap-Music. There are a lot of German acts but to me this kind of music seems childish ... there are also lots of turkish rap acts but all these rappers have a very "macho" attitude. I've absolutely no interest in this kind of noise ... blahblahblah ... my penis is longer than yours, my car is superior ... etc ... rap sucks. Same intellectual level as chartmuzak ... acoustic waste. >> Can't say rap does anything for me, and the German variety seems like a recipe from hell... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:35:11 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? > But Krautrock ...???... is it the exotic nature > of this kind of music what attracts listeners in > the US to it ? > Over here in Germany it is all long forgotten. But the Germans had a very unique perspective, that was very original, and still is! At the risk of... certain death, here are my three theories on music. 1. You listen to what you grew up with. 50yo guys into "micro-house"? Suspect. 18yo kids into Motown? Suspect. Of course there are exceptions, especially for the well rounded afficiandos on this list, but in general, you don't find many Elvis fans that were born after he kicked... 2. Most innovation in "rock/pop" music occured in the sixties and seventies. Again, you could shoot this down like a Big Les Zeppelin, but that era was unbeget with much history. Most Prog rockers were R&B kids. Go figure. 3. Many people listen to music because they think its cool not because they like it. Want proof? Read this digest. Why I re-evaluate crap stadium dinosaur plod rock? Drum roll, it's what I like. And lordy knows I ain't cool! I want one too. charles shop@wiremailorder.com http://www.wiremailorder.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:55:57 -0700 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? At 18:35 -0500 07.16.2001, wiremailorder.com wrote: > >1. You listen to what you grew up with. 50yo guys into "micro-house"? >Suspect. 18yo kids into Motown? Suspect. Of course there are exceptions, >especially for the well rounded afficiandos on this list, but in general, >you don't find many Elvis fans that were born after he kicked... Is this to some variations from country to country? In the US, with the highly segmented radio station, print and promotion -- to include not only age, but race and geography -- seems a lot more along the lines that you mentioned... it seems, to me, less prevalent in Europe. > >2. Most innovation in "rock/pop" music occured in the sixties and seventies. >Again, you could shoot this down like a Big Les Zeppelin, but that era was >unbeget with much history. Most Prog rockers were R&B kids. Go figure. I agree with this, more with the 60s... the easy fallacy in this argument is the extension to the fact that the best bands/music were, therefore, from the 60s. These bands had an open canvas, that 70s onwards did not have... so the influences on 70s+ were from these bands, and not so much from R&B, blues or jazz (I mean, these other genre's have not have much in the way of changes either, unless you count fusion attempts, and the prog of the 70s seems to be a bit of fusion of rock and others). However, some music today seems to be just as inventive... but harder to find than in the 60s due to the plurality in sources... so as long as you do not begin to claim that most good musicians in rock were in the 60s... no flame war will ensue! ;-) - -fernando ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:15:39 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? Fernando, You've actually argued quite well for why Krautrock seems to fascinate....simply because it appears NOT to draw on the traditions of the rock/blues past, but rather draws from other sources (particularly European ones). Can, Neu! etc are consciously trying to avoid blues/jazz - particularly difficult for the well-schooled (and 3/4 30-something at their inception) Can. Now the same appeal lies at the heart of the Velvet Underground, Joy Division, PiL and many other list faves - and of course Wire. Sure, much of the canvas was filled during the '60s, but there was plenty left open in the 70s. Sure, it's harder to do this now, but equally it's wrong to expect that any new music created in the 21st century should push back some form of invisible sonic boundaries of innovation. Fine if it does, but it can be equally fine if it doesn't - so long as it sounds good. Mark << I agree with this, more with the 60s... the easy fallacy in this argument is the extension to the fact that the best bands/music were, therefore, from the 60s. These bands had an open canvas, that 70s onwards did not have... so the influences on 70s+ were from these bands, and not so much from R&B, blues or jazz (I mean, these other genre's have not have much in the way of changes either, unless you count fusion attempts, and the prog of the 70s seems to be a bit of fusion of rock and others). However, some music today seems to be just as inventive... but harder to find than in the 60s due to the plurality in sources... so as long as you do not begin to claim that most good musicians in rock were in the 60s... no flame war will ensue! ;-) >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:25:40 -0700 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? At 20:15 -0400 07.16.2001, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Can, Neu! etc are consciously trying to avoid blues/jazz - >particularly difficult for the well-schooled (and 3/4 30-something at their >inception) Can. In a way the fusion happening in the 70s... or perhaps more easily defined with Bitches Brew as a milestone (not meaning the first, best, etc.)... is that most other sources and/or permutations were tried... drying up fusion as a means for 80s bands... however, > >Now the same appeal lies at the heart of the Velvet Underground, Joy >Division, PiL and many other list faves - and of course Wire. these bands showed how even their influences from VU can be extended in a clever way, without resorting to fusion... not sure if JD was fusion, and perhaps PiL did fuse dub into their idea of sound. > >Sure, much of the canvas was filled during the '60s, but there was plenty >left open in the 70s. Sure, it's harder to do this now, but equally it's >wrong to expect that any new music created in the 21st century should push >back some form of invisible sonic boundaries of innovation. Fine if it does, >but it can be equally fine if it doesn't - so long as it sounds good. Well, if the argument that most fusion has been exhausted holds true, it would mean that the new ideas, that are not too influenced based, will not be found in rock per se... it seems that the most significant move has been to move away from 4/4-guitar based rock... and things that electronically (for good or bad) can provide. Pop certainly will not. Perhaps the thing to experience now within rock is poly-fusion... a la Mogwai or Hood (just as examples) fo things from the 60s all the way to the 90s. Well, I think that the last EP from Hood is just wonderful and refreshing -- familiar, yes... but nothing that I have been familiar with before. cheers! - -fernando ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 20:44:02 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ja nein? Kraut ? Fernando, << Now the same appeal lies at the heart of the Velvet Underground, Joy >Division, PiL and many other list faves - and of course Wire. these bands showed how even their influences from VU can be extended in a clever way, without resorting to fusion... not sure if JD was fusion, and perhaps PiL did fuse dub into their idea of sound. >> Probably he ultimate joy of Wire and JD was their inability to create any form of stylistic fusion due to their inability as musicians to play jazz/funk/reggae/blues etc. Both bands were genuinely stretching their own limits as musicians. It sounded the way it did because there was no option.Even with PiL, the dub influence is so twisted as to be unrecognisable. As I said, the likes of Can pulled off the same trick via different methods - consciously playing well within their abilities and knowledge., If Can had wanted to play jazz-blues in 1968 they were well capable of doing so. Wire/JD in 1978 were not, and still aren't.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:03:33 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] this weekend i mostly listened to.... Krauts ??? I quite liked the German band Blumfeld that put out an album about 5 years back. (And I still like Trio - da da da) . Are there any decent new German bands? > >Well, the last Neubauten album is titled "Silence is sexy" but almost all >tracks have German lyrics. Is there an English version of this cd? > >Our youth listens to Rap-Music. There are a lot of German acts but >to me this kind of music seems childish ... there are also lots of >turkish rap acts but all these rappers have a very "macho" attitude. > >I've absolutely no interest in this kind of noise ... blahblahblah ... >my penis is longer than yours, my car is superior ... etc ... rap sucks. > >Same intellectual level as chartmuzak ... acoustic waste. > >FrankfromBavaria _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 02:03:18 +0100 From: Tim Subject: [idealcopy] Multi-Topic: Here Come The Bounced Posts Miles has been dealing with bounced posts while he's been away. Isn't strange to read some of these little blasts from the recent past which have been floating around in cyberspace for a couple of weeks?! Paul wrote on new New Order song >i///// i was looking at it from a position of thinking it might well be a >complete disaster , which it isn't. i was half suspecting another >electronic/monaco fiasco with added corgan ; not very appetising. p Trite lyric notwithstanding Its OK, but it sounds like their producer (Steve 'Happy Mondays' Osbourne) is trying to hard to make them sound like 'New Order'. Judgement is reserved until I hear new LP (called "Lets F**kin Have it" or something). Me, I prefer NO ham-fisted and self produced. Rlynn wrote: >has anyone on these boards ever listened to Bruce Gilbert's Ab Ovo and In >Esse all the way through in one sitting?....I have not done this yet....i >find them harder to listen to than any of his earlier stuff.....opinions??? Ab Ovo yes several times, never quite got it but it may catch up with me like Autechre did after many more listens. I'd like to grow up to be a Beekeeper when I pass 50. Frank wrote: >How comes that this very old Krautrock stuff is well >appreciated from so much idealcopyists ? Can, Neu and to a lesser extent Faust and Amon Dull II are constantly namechecked by the likes of Stereolab, Tortoise and all the post-rock bands and the UK music press. Julian Cope wrote a lovingly compiled guide to all this stuff (Krautrocksampler). I believe certain members of Wire were into Krautrock in the 70s. >But Krautrock ...???... is it the exotic nature >of this kind of music what attracts listeners in >the US to it ? Don't know about the US, but here in little England we like the dang dang dang dang dang daggagagagaga! Graeme wrote (on Wire covers) >Elastica - 12XU >Gold to shit from daughter who registered nought. "Personally I have absolutely no problems with Justine or the Elastica project and I like the music." Bruce Gilbert (NME.COM) Graeme wrote (On The Wire) >They've also started to sneak in too much utterly crap >britpap whack like Radiohead & Primal Scream, >presumably in an attempt to filch disillusioned eNMEy >& Q readers. Is that not a bloody good idea? (Primal Scream should at least be applauded for coaxing Kevin Sheilds out of retirement) >And some disgruntled eNMEy writers, like >John Noakes, have been creeping into The Wire. Not John Noakes of Blue Peter fame? "well viewers this week I am in The Royal Festival Hall listening to a three hour recital by Stockhausen. I was terrified but Dave told me to strap on and hold tight....get down Shep." (Sorry non-UK listees!) > The Wire often start to feature rock bands months, >even years after I started listening to them (Bardo >Pond, Unwound, Blonde Redhead, Yo La Tengo, Sonic >Youth & Wire being good examples). LOL! This is Classic Rowlands! (Sorry big G) I must say on Wire though, was The Wire not a (ahem) Jazz-mag for most of Wires career? (Its still pretty wank now if you pardon the pun! Oooh Pardon!) >It was also quite >funny that people I knew from nights in Manchester >(V/vm, Speedranch & Jansky Noise) were on the cover in >the same issue they printed a letter from me. LOL! Yeah but theres always a bloody letter from you in there mate! >But it was never the same after little Jimmy Kranky >and Johnny Ball stopped reviewing the 'Outer Limits' >though. Blimey if I knew all these Childrens TV stars of the 70s wrote for The Wire I'd have paid more attention. "So thats how Lamonte Young invented drone Rock Jimmy.......Aye! Fandabidozeee! " When I realised they often reviewed Boredoms (and >even let Derek Griffiths chuck in his 2c on Yamantaka >Eye's delightful howling), and never reviewed Oasis >and their crummy spawn I started to read it regularly. I suspect Derek saw the comparison between Boredoms and his own Motorik efforts like 'Dogalong Dogalong Run'. >Personally I've given up on the mag editing lark in >favour of websites and writing for other people as I >really can't be bothered with the utterly tedious >business of trying to break even selling the thing Presumably most Fanzines have gone to the WWW. Print fanzines are all a bit Belle & Sebastian anyway aren't they?! Tonight I am listening to: Susumu Yokota : Sakura (Godlike genius, Ambient but too clever for Ibiza no-brainers) Beta Band - Hot Shots II (Forget the botched debut/Nick Hornby namcheck..this is great pop!) Slag Boom Van Loon - So Soon : (Remix album and something for everyone on Idealcopy! U-ziq Speedy J collaboration remixed by Boards of Canada, Matmos and Coil amongst others) Ridicule is nothing to be scared of http://www.kidsindestructible.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 21:25:03 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide It Seems try gemm.com >From: Johnathan Hegge >To: "'idealcopy@smoe.org'" >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide It Seems >Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:14:24 -0500 > >This brings up a question for me. I never was able to acquire Commercial >Suicide on CD, though my brother had it at one time. Long story, never was >able to get that copy. I've heard it and love it but I'd like to get my >own >copy. > >Anyone have a CD to part with or know a dealer that has a copy? I don't >buy >off ebay because of a bad experience. > >thanks > > >Tim wrote: > > > > > The sleeve of CS is terrific. Bruce had a hand in it I see. > > Unlike the earlier LPs or Bastard the music is difficult to place. The >only > > reference point I can think of is Earwig (remember them?) as it has that > > same tinkling, repetitive dreamy feel of their LPs ( but It predates >that > > band by several years). > > > > The overall feel is icy and windswept. Only the rather upfront vocals > > prevent it from being pretty much an Eno-esque ambient record. The >dronier > > tracks remind me of Spirtualized more orchestral moments. > > I agree with Wireviews point that perhaps more effort went into the > > arrangements than the songwriting but I do like the interplay between >Colin > > and Malkas voicings and the string laden instrumentation is impressive > > particularly on But I and the title track. Not at all bad actually. > > >To my ears, Philip Glass, Steve Reich and Wim Maertens were a big influence >on >CS and IS. But on these records Colin did something that stood out from the >contemporary mainstream, which I don't feel his swim output manages to >achieve. > > > > So how were these records recieved at the time? Was the title of >Commerical > > Suicide a self-fulflling prophecy? > > Can't imagine It Seems would have made much impact at the height of Acid > > House. Anyone recall any reviews? Were they just ignored? (Presumably >the > > nearby Wire releases hogged most of the attention) > > > >CS was promoted quite vigorously. I remember seeing a review of it in a Uk >hifi >mag, which was a bit non-plussed. IS had a much lower profile...so perhaps >CS >did live up to its title. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:24:04 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: ok - so i have been listening to: what a great night of listening i just had..... Bedouin Ascent "Science, Art, Ritual" (rising high label uk)....wow this cd is from around 94 and still fascinates and inspires me...beautiful.... Tetsu Inoue - "Ambiant Otaku" (FAX label Germany)...the classic resurfaces yet again for leisurely hour of some of the most delicate and uplifting music my ears have heard Peter Benisch - "Waiting for Snow" (FAX label Germany)..think Aphex Twin's melodic stuff like ambient works 1, think of the icy beauty of Autechre's Amber and you can get sort of an idea here...very nice heading off to bed now to listen to my newly acquired copy of SPK's "Zamia Lehmanni-Songs of Byzantine Flowers"...i can't wait..... good night everyone, i hope all is well in your world..... Robert (from across the pond smack dab in the middle of the USA) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:26:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] In Esse/Ab Ovo "has anyone on these boards ever listened to Bruce Gilbert's Ab Ovo and In Esse all the way through in one sitting?.... i find them harder to listen to than any of his earlier stuff.....opinions???" 'Ab Ovo' is no more difficult to listen to than most of the Dome stuff, and I still give it the occassional spin -- it's a good record. As for 'In Esse', I did listen to it all the way through twice, as is my minimum for anything I review for the Web site. I then gave it a partial 'sanity check' a few weeks later, but still didn't really see the point. I'm all for experimentation/improvisation -- GPS, for instance, is a great recording -- but noise for noise's sake doesn't turn me on. If I want static, I'll detune my radio. Flame-proof hat on! :) C ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #218 *******************************