From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #188 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, June 19 2001 Volume 04 : Number 188 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] OT - prog v. disco [Nik ] Re: [idealcopy] OT - prog v. disco ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] Tear Down The Wall [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT - prog v. disco [Nik ] Re: [idealcopy] Tear Down The Yodellers ["JH3" ] Re: [idealcopy] Tear Down The Yodellers [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] The Wire not Wire. [Dr Volume ] [idealcopy] Tomato/Tomaytoe debate [Tim Robinson ] [idealcopy] UvD ["david mack" ] Re: [idealcopy] The Wire not Wire. [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:01:49 +0100 From: Nik Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - prog v. disco In message , MarkBursa@aol.com writes Mark, >Ian, Giluz, > ><< It was not the only musical genre punks hated and not > even the worst one (disco was certainly worse than prog rock). > >oh i don't know. these days, i'd say the worst of prog > was just as bad as the worst of disco. >> > >Prog was far worse than disco! Couldn't agree with you more. Picking up on Giluz's earlier communication, disco, just like punk, was also an attitude (besides being a musical genre). All music/noise is essentially metaphor. > >Disco was simply a development of the 70s soul and funk scenes from various >US cities - it was a New York rather than Philadelphia or Detroit strain.... A quick quote from the blurb of 'Saturday Night Forever - The Story of Disco', by Alan Jones and Jussi Kantonen: 'Disco started in obscure underground clubs as a glamour-filled reaction to the plodding, self-indulgent rock music of the late-'60s and really took off in the excitement-parched early-'70s. Created by people marginalised by their colour (black), race (Latino), sexuality (gay) or class (working), the music and its attendant lifestyle inevitably became watered down and distorted once it slipped from the control of small independent labels and became a worldwide craze.' Sound familiar? The authors also have a delightful take on the Disco Sucks movement: 'Only by killing disco could rock music reaffirm its threatened masculinity and could straight men - strong-armed by their girlfriends into dancing next to mustachioed clones, and continually 'castrated' by nightly choruses of 'I'm Every Woman' and 'Knights in White Satin' - get their balls back with some pride intact. The 'Disco Sucks' division (and the fact that the very sexual word 'Sucks' was chosen is revealing), culminating in the 'Disco Demolition' rally in Chicago's Cominskey Park, home of the White Sox, in July 1979, wasn't so much an assembly against mindless plastic music, but more about putting gay liberation back in its nocturnal niche. It was a deliberate heterosexual exorcism of an increasingly mucho macho twilight society that could play the 'masculine' game better thank any straight man ever could. This was also the reason why the AIDS epidemic was leapt on with such gruesome glee by straight society.' In the fight against (sic) corporate cock rock (subchapter prog included), disco and punk - in their undiluted manifestations - are not fundamentally unlikely allies. Nik ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 07:15:57 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - prog v. disco geez ... & here i thought i just liked shame shame shame, rock the boat, rock your baby, le freak, ad nearly infinitum better than anything rick wakefield ad nauseum ever did -- now i've got an intellectual underpinning for said preference! dan >In message , MarkBursa@aol.com writes >Mark, >>Ian, Giluz, >> >><< It was not the only musical genre punks hated and not >> even the worst one (disco was certainly worse than prog rock). >> >>oh i don't know. these days, i'd say the worst of prog >> was just as bad as the worst of disco. >> >> >>Prog was far worse than disco! >Couldn't agree with you more. >Picking up on Giluz's earlier communication, disco, just like punk, was >also an attitude (besides being a musical genre). All music/noise is >essentially metaphor. >> >>Disco was simply a development of the 70s soul and funk scenes from various >>US cities - it was a New York rather than Philadelphia or Detroit strain.... >A quick quote from the blurb of 'Saturday Night Forever - The Story of >Disco', by Alan Jones and Jussi Kantonen: > >'Disco started in obscure underground clubs as a glamour-filled reaction >to the plodding, self-indulgent rock music of the late-'60s and really >took off in the excitement-parched early-'70s. Created by people >marginalised by their colour (black), race (Latino), sexuality (gay) or >class (working), the music and its attendant lifestyle inevitably became >watered down and distorted once it slipped from the control of small >independent labels and became a worldwide craze.' > >Sound familiar? >The authors also have a delightful take on the Disco Sucks movement: > >'Only by killing disco could rock music reaffirm its threatened >masculinity and could straight men - strong-armed by their girlfriends >into dancing next to mustachioed clones, and continually 'castrated' by >nightly choruses of 'I'm Every Woman' and 'Knights in White Satin' - get >their balls back with some pride intact. The 'Disco Sucks' division (and >the fact that the very sexual word 'Sucks' was chosen is revealing), >culminating in the 'Disco Demolition' rally in Chicago's Cominskey Park, >home of the White Sox, in July 1979, wasn't so much an assembly against >mindless plastic music, but more about putting gay liberation back in >its nocturnal niche. It was a deliberate heterosexual exorcism of an >increasingly mucho macho twilight society that could play the >'masculine' game better thank any straight man ever could. This was also >the reason why the AIDS epidemic was leapt on with such gruesome glee by >straight society.' > >In the fight against (sic) corporate cock rock (subchapter prog >included), disco and punk - in their undiluted manifestations - are not >fundamentally unlikely allies. > >Nik ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:17:56 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Michael O'Shea Review My review of WMO's Michael O'Shea reissue can be read here: http://www.brainwashed.com/brain/brainv04i23.html There are also 3 minute long MP3 excerpts. ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:33:51 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Tear Down The Wall Perhaps one day I'll be as cool as the people on this list (though I doubt it) and have a playlist that *exclusively* comes out of the Wire. Well, that's not my playlist you're talking about. When did you last read about Phroq Bess Keloid Nomeansno Shellac Fugazi Disco Operating System Berkowitz Lake & Dahmer Mild Man Jan Sham 69 Abba in The Wire? If I could eradicate one album from existance I would choose 'The Wall' merely because it is the worst album I've had to endure the most number of times (I used to even quite like the song where they got the kids to sing about bricks when it was at No1). If I could rip the tongue out of one singer it'd be Robert Plant. There are so many better things than early seventies bore rock around today why would anyone waste precious listening time trying to like that bilge? I always thought the yodelling of Focus was a milestone of rock acheivement! OK, I'm lying. Lock Up Your Hats! Graeme (listening to Eight Frozen Modules with no idea whether or not it was reviewed in the Wire) ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:37:02 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Follow the Disco Leader >>>>but it didn't take long for people like the Gang Of Four, The Pop Group, etc., to incorporate elements into their stuff that 'could' be termed as 'disco'. Pop Group never sounded like disco! Killing Joke were quite pleased that Follow The Leaders was put in the disco chart in US. I prefer Donna Summer to Genesis any day. But I'd rather listen to Manscape or In Esse. Lock up your hats! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:40:58 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Floyd fans? >>>>is there more than just a 'same-label' tie to Wire? were/are they fans? In The Wire (where we get all our ideas from) in the first issue I bought of thatr mag, they had Bruce Gilbert's Invisible Jukebox. They played him PF & he said he went to see them back in the day but was never a big fan. He opined that they may have been a topic of playground discussion for Colin & his schoolfriends. There are about 5 seconds of good music on Dark Side of The Moon (the intro to Time - Blaaaam tick tock tick tock) Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:51:39 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Tear Down The Wall > I always thought the yodelling of Focus was a > milestone of rock acheivement! OK, I'm lying. But it certainly brought into the world one of pop's most hillariously ridiculous moments. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:58:47 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Tear Down The Wall Graeme, << If I could eradicate one album from existance I would choose 'The Wall' merely because it is the worst album I've had to endure the most number of times (I used to even quite like the song where they got the kids to sing about bricks when it was at No1). >> The Wall is not good, but better than either Animals or The Final Cut, both of which are dismal. Roger Waters' solo albums, from what little I've heard of them, are among the worst records ever made. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:07:11 +0100 From: Nik Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - prog v. disco Five, man! The book even includes a mention of the bimbo with the big organ in a chapter on disco oeuvres by mainstreamers jumping aboard the bandwagon. Quote: 'RICK WAKEMAN ('70s keyboard artist) - 'Rhapsody in Blue'. Down there with Ethel Merman as one of the worst disco records in history.' Just the right soundtrack for a nice Hollywood remake of 'The Full Monty'... Nik In message <01c0f7f0$6df728e0$b2e25d0c@default>, dan bailey writes >geez ... & here i thought i just liked shame shame shame, rock the boat, >rock your baby, le freak, ad nearly infinitum better than anything rick >wakefield ad nauseum ever did -- now i've got an intellectual underpinning >for said preference! > >dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:18:31 -0500 From: "JH3" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Tear Down The Yodellers > > I always thought the yodelling of Focus was a > > milestone of rock acheivement! OK, I'm lying. > But it certainly brought into the world one of pop's most > hillariously ridiculous moments. Come on, now! You make it sound like that's a BAD thing! John "yudda-yudda-yudda-yudda-yud-dop-doh" Hedges ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:56:06 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Tear Down The Yodellers << > > I always thought the yodelling of Focus was a > > milestone of rock acheivement! OK, I'm lying. > But it certainly brought into the world one of pop's most > hillariously ridiculous moments. Come on, now! You make it sound like that's a BAD thing! >> Indeed. Rather that progsters yodel than sing about dragons and pixies. Focus' Sylvia was a great single and not prog at all. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 02:11:13 +0100 From: Dr Volume Subject: [idealcopy] The Wire not Wire. Charles wrote: > . Perhaps one day I'll be as cool as the people on > this list (though I doubt it) and have a playlist that *exclusively* comes > out of the Wire. That doesn't include me Charles. I do occasionally read The Wire but I often find it rather impenetrable, willfully superior and elitist, Male-biased and a little bit anal. Plus whenever they review a record I've bought (often months after the event!) they trash it. In fact it reminds me of some of the people on this list! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 02:20:42 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] Tomato/Tomaytoe debate I Said "!Mind you, I reckon the best band in the world are that little known combo, Flay the Goose Mamma...e etc" Graeme sighed: >That's such a funny joke Tim. >Could you tell it to us for the fifteenth time? Oh, that went down like a Led Zep didnt it folks! I feel like a bad club comic who has just 'died' on stage. I'll finish with a song and make a hasty exit stage left. Fair enough, maybe my posts have taken on a sort of NEU like repetition. I was commenting on your recent, rather grouchy faultfinding with other listees music tastes. I like a good bitch about music but writing to the list and highlighting bands I and others like as 'boring' or 'a total joke'...come on GR, I know you're capable of being a bit more witty than that. Far be it from me to make assumptions but there appears to be a pattern emerging where the more populist the music, the more you seem to bounce up and down from your avante-garde corner spitting apple juice at anyone who dare mention Wings (who as Alan Partridge pointed out "..are the band the Beatles could have been!"). Nobody own up to liking Smokie for gods sake! :) Anyway, enough of all this Carping and Sniping (was that an out-take from Manscape?). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:53:50 -0500 From: "david mack" Subject: [idealcopy] UvD Thanks Dan Glad to hear from you again :) > i think the line is at least 20 years old, & probably quite a bit older > (maybe from james brown?) ... i'm pretty sure the evasions quote it in their > hilarious "wikka wrap" from around '83, but it's sunday a.m. & i just woke > up & i'm not dragging out the 12" to play just now. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:26:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Wire not Wire. On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Dr Volume wrote: > I do occasionally read The Wire but I often find it rather impenetrable, > willfully superior and elitist, Male-biased and a little bit anal. Plus > whenever they review a record I've bought (often months after the > event!) they trash it. Damn - I wish there were a major magazine out there that would review my CD purchases. "Jeff's last few CDs were among his more disappointing purchases of his last few years. In fact, you'd have to go way back to the 1970s - when teenage Jeff actually paid his own money to buy Rick Wakeman LPs - to find a lamer set of CDs than the last batch Jeff forced a record store clerk, holding his nose, to stuff into a little bag to take home." - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::I suspect that the first dictator of this country will be called "Coach":: __William Gass__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:59:08 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Tear Down The Yodellers > > > I always thought the yodelling of Focus was a > > > milestone of rock acheivement! OK, I'm lying. > > > But it certainly brought into the world one of pop's most > > hillariously ridiculous moments. > > Come on, now! You make it sound like that's a BAD thing! > > John "yudda-yudda-yudda-yudda-yud-dop-doh" Hedges Not at all - I was yodelling Opus yesterday on my way back from work and I'm still yodelling now as I sit in front of the screen (mind you - I didn't yodel at home - my wife would have kicked me out). giluz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #188 *******************************