From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #182 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, June 13 2001 Volume 04 : Number 182 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] eno and collaborators [kevin eden ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: OT - Scars [John Roberts ] [idealcopy] Re: idm ["david mack" ] RE: [idealcopy] eno and collaborators ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] eno and collaborators [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] [idealcopy] Wir & PiL [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] [idealcopy] OffTopic - Situation In Israel ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] OT - illconceived venues/strange gigs ["ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] eno and collaborators In 1975 when Eno made Another Green World and most of Music For Films, the idea of him using John Cale and Phil Collins was not as ridiculous as it seems now. These albums were (and in my mind, still are) incredibly radical and awe inspiring. Whilst Phil was in Genesis, he was also in Brand X that included Percy Jones on bass (also on AGW and MFF). They both later played on Before and After Science. John Cale was out of the Velvets and Eno had been involved in the June 1st 1974 concert with him and Kevin Ayres as well as perform on a vouple of his albums. In 1974 Eno also performed on Genesis 'Lamb Lies Down' album. So the trade back and forth continued and continues with Eno and Gabriel's work together. Cale and Eno's work together and Phil Collins heading up his own arse. ===== kevin eden wmo, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk wmouk@yahoo.com http://wiremailorder.com/ "dreams that money can buy" Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:39:44 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: OT - Scars > really? this i didn't know. i take it that this was > before John > Cooper-Clarke lived with her. it also begs the > question where is he now?? Spotted a month ago in Leicestershire playing at some local (and I mean local in the League of Gentlemen sense) music festival in Huncote. Supported by some terrible muso locals. He was v drunk and v funny - but not v politically correct. Did about half a dozen of his poems in a two hour set - the rest was stand up. Finished by winding up the locals warning them that the railway would be there soon. John Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:15:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] (OT) Appeal for Band Names! Tim wrote: "we need some pseudonyms for our band so we can send out different kids of track." Shame you don't want to use the same name for everything and thus prove your diversity. Mind you, I can see your argument as it f*cked everyone up when VMU put the noise/exp "Sonus" out in 2000 and pretty much lost the entire (admitedly small) fan-base that had built up :( Slowly building again with "Also"... slowly... Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:18:45 -0500 From: "david mack" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idm intelligent music - isn't post rock - does'nt you can define the catagories by their negation that said, half of what i buy at reckless in chicago is filed under idm used to be ambient , techno , experimental and sometimes new age abstract was a popular tag for a while but never made it to having it's own card at reckless i particularly like experimental i envision labcoats seriously , the need to catagorize is present in all of us we find it nessicary to group disparate entities together simply to manage the complexities of life catagorization is the fundamental need which mutates to closemindedness , racism, nationalism but it is also the need which feeds family and community i try fight it constantly, and some individuals, bands, etc lend themselves to it very well - what can you say - stereotypes must come from *somewhere* the concept i strive to remember as i am pigeonholing someone or something is that catagorization is always at least somewhat inaccurate and often unjust music is no different but no 2 individuals are exactly the same, even 'identical' twins and no 2 pieces of music or even performances ar analysis may prove that 2 pieces of music belong in the same box - witness some of our discussions of the nature of "punk" but analysis can also be used to "prove" genetic superiority/inferiority so , to me, it is merely a matter of how many lines you want to draw (and be careful where you draw them) we have a nifty dance shop in chicago called grammaphone they have at least 15 flavours of house music my mind requires only one we also have nifty little ethnic 'enclaves' while this gives us truly great ethnic food and entertainment, it also leads to people patrolling their 'borders' with baseball bats an semi-automatics r)(o)(m (waxing philosophical) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:29:52 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] eno and collaborators > In 1975 when Eno made Another Green World and most of > Music For Films, the idea of him using John Cale and > Phil Collins was not as ridiculous as it seems now. > > These albums were (and in my mind, still are) > incredibly radical and awe inspiring. > > Whilst Phil was in Genesis, he was also in Brand X > that included Percy Jones on bass (also on AGW and > MFF). > > They both later played on Before and After Science. > > John Cale was out of the Velvets and Eno had been > involved in the June 1st 1974 concert with him and > Kevin Ayres as well as perform on a vouple of his > albums. > > In 1974 Eno also performed on Genesis 'Lamb Lies Down' > album. > > So the trade back and forth continued and continues > with Eno and Gabriel's work together. Cale and Eno's > work together and Phil Collins heading up his own > arse. Collins also played on one of Cale's Island albums (I think it was Helen of Troy but I'm not sure). Eno played on all three. Actually, with the way Another Green World was done, I don't think any of the musicians ever met each other (except for Eno, that is). Instead of doing an album based on session recordings each musician would in his turn record another layer to the track. Later, at the mixing stage, Eno would edit the bits and decide which ones would remain. On the back of the album there's even a list of people whose contributions didn't end up on the completed tracks. This is one of the reasons why this album was so revolutionary: Though the concept of working like this wasn't new, I don't think anyone took it that far yet - what's now considered as standard post-production work almost didn't exist then. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:42:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] eno and collaborators On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, kevin eden wrote: > In 1975 when Eno made Another Green World and most of > Music For Films, the idea of him using John Cale and > Phil Collins was not as ridiculous as it seems now. If there were such a thing as a musical priest, I'd really love to be a fly on the wall for Phil's deathbed confessions. I mean, okay, prog rock certainly has its dubious aspects - but for a while there, it had the potential to be doing something different with music, so I'll forgive him Genesis up through, oh, _Lamb..._. And his studio drumming during this period is unimpeachable. But what happened in the eighties and nineties... God, is there a steeper, more precarious fall in music? Stevie Wonder? Rod Stewart (who never was all that high anyway)? Yeesh... - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey, momentarily donning the Gilded Mullet of seventies/eighties lame-o rock J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::beliefs are ideas going bald:: __Francis Picabia__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:10:25 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Boring - --- MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Graeme, > > This is becoming very boring, y'know. > > Mark > Yep, nearly as boring as the Movement badly produced story which we've had about 7 times now. > << V/Vm Help Aphex Twin 2x3" CDS > > Well, Radiohead were helping him, V/Vm were helping > him, everyone loves the Twin (except Mark Bursa > because Aphex wasn't 'reinventing' enough and > didn't > cut it like Cabaret Voltaire or the > multi-dimensional > Wings). The best cut here is 'Laughing all the way > to > his tank' which is a spoof cut up of maniac > laughter > and not a fuck up of an Aphex original like most of > this. Richrad James loves it; Warp are keeping > shtum. > These are nearly gone apparently. Serious bores > need > not bother. >> ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:24:00 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Neu! Ian said >>>>following the most informative feature in this month's (The) Wire, and the fact that i've been listening to 'Heroes' a lot lately, i think it's time to check Neu!1 and 75 at least... I'd recommend Neu 2 over Nue 75 which I didn't like at all. The first 2 albums are waaaay better than the third one IMO! The third one sounds the most dated and the first 2 are the punker sounding ones. Then again I hate everything by Dee Boowee except the laughing gnome song (nearly as good as gong!) Negativland is the song to hear! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:30:47 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Everlasting Arm OT Everlasting Arm is the only single from the 3rd Mercury Rev album (or fourth if one includes the Peel session album) It has a great track on the flipside with Alan Vega on vocals - best thing he's done since the first Suicide album IMO. As for Flaming Lips I still have a soft spot for the Telepathic Surgery album which was the first one I heard by them. Oh My Gawd! is also good but the first album less so... Wayne Coyne was a very talkative and effusive interviewee. Hit me like you did the first time! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:37:51 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Spirit You Lized OT I wouldn't judge them on having seen one gig as they tend to very inconsistent live (like The Fall). Actually I've seen them at least 3 times - very boring. I've also heard a few of their records - very boring. I've nothing against heroin or any other non-prescription drug though. Lock up your hats! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:42:49 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Nice? Neu! Tim hollered>>>>No way is Bob Mould better than Wings or Teenage Fanclub or Radiohead for that matter. Whos Dee Boowee? Not Dame David surely? You wouldn't claim that off colour Mould was better than Bowie would you? Do you like any nice pop music at all?!!! This is obviously some use of the word 'nice' of which I was not formerly aware. Teenage Fanclub in particular are a total joke. The drummer walked out because he realised they were very boring dadrock and he wanted to rip off Neu! His solo albums as Fiend are good and his playing on the first 2 Telstar Ponies albums is even better. Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:05:32 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] I can feel it coming in the air tonight hold on! Charles said >>>>lest we not forget that Phil Collins was a great drummer... Genesis were awful though, Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is my idea of pure audio torture. Great drummer though. Sue Sue Sudio! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:12:48 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Boring Graeme, << Yep, nearly as boring as the Movement badly produced story which we've had about 7 times now. >> Not content with being boring, you've now decided to become downright rude and offensive. What the fuck is your problem? Having met you on a number of occasions I've enjoyed talking to you, and enjoyed your enthusiasm for music. Yet now you display an intolerance of any taste outside your own narrow world view that borders on fascism. Cut it out. This is a friendly discussion group comprising people with very disparate and broad tastes. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I like Radiohead. you don't. You like V/vm.I don't. So fucking what? Make your points with humour and passion, by all means. But cut out the immature insults, OK. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:36:16 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Biggin' up w/ Acousmatic Posse! Giluz, << Should have known better not to mention that you've got a Wings album - reactions to Laurel's ELO inclinations still pop up once in a while, more than a year later! Some things are better not mentioned on this list (you don't wanna know what monsters I'm hiding in my record collection). >> I know, I know.... I could sit here and defend solo Beatlery - but I'll leave that to Mojo, Uncut, Q and every other bleedin' music magazine this month!! Cheers, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:40:09 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] The hills are alive with the sound of turnips! Tim Said >>>>Actually, I prefer Turnip Conurbation to any of the above. Their 'Jug of Catastrophe' album for example is far superior to anything you like. Have you heard it? Its on Bogus records, and I belive is in a limited edition of none. These limited editions are never as limited as they tell you, the music biz being full of rip offs. Just checked ebay and there are 7 copies of this up there and the bidding is up to almost double figures! In cents that is... So if you want an ear full of turnips... Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:37:37 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Boring Mark rebuked Graeme thusly: >Not content with being boring, you've now decided to become downright rude >and offensive. > >What the fuck is your problem? > >Having met you on a number of occasions I've enjoyed talking to you, and >enjoyed your enthusiasm for music. > >Yet now you display an intolerance of any taste outside your own narrow world >view that borders on fascism. And I'll connect fascism with Hitler (though not with Graeme), and since most mailing lists recognize the mention of Hitler in a thread as the *end* of the thread, hopefully that will end this bout of sniping for good. We've had well-reasoned defenses of Radiohead, we've had Graeme give us many suggestions for things he thinks are much more worth our while than Radiohead -- why, I even found the Autechre divider at our Media Play and will return there sometime after the 15th. Those discussions were productive, sometimes amusing, and worth our while. This isn't. Let's move on. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:45:36 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Wir & PiL For those who haven't heard it, an extract of Wir-The First Letter (Vien) can be found here http://www.touch.demon.co.uk/audio_files.html The second part of that Keith Levene interview is now online: http://www.furious.com/perfect/keithlevene2.html There are also articles on John Fahey, Electric Eels and the brilliant Thinking Fellers Union Local 282 here. ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:30:05 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Its a Rip Off! Graham Johnston of Clicks & Klangs (where you can read an article on Magazine's underrated Magic, Murder and the Weather amongst other things) said this on the Faust List a while back - "the story about TMR's sales figures are merely idle speculation. However, it is fairly widely suspected that the supposed figures for Trout Mask sales *must* be incorrect. It is officially claimed that TMR has sold around 100,000 copies in total to date. Bill Harkleroad (aka Zoot Horn Rollo) and Rick Snyder, both ex-Magic Band, now run record shops and first raised the question of the inaccuracy of this 100,000 figure when each noticed that they were selling about one copy of Trout Mask every week. I know several other small independent record shop people who all claim the same - roughly one sale a week. It doesn't take much to work out that there are not only many thousands of record stores in the world which stock TMR, but there have also been a lot of weeks between now and 1969, even if you ignore all of the 1980s when interest in the Magic Band was much lower than it is now. Not very scientific and nothing concrete, but conspiracy theorists would doubtlessly love the situation!" I wonder if perhaps the first 3 Wire albums might have sold a few more copies than EMI are willing to admit? And many other records too.. Lock up your hats! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 02:00:03 +0100 From: Dr Volume Subject: [idealcopy] Plaid compared to Wire?! In a review of the new Plaid LP (entitled 'Double Figure' on Warp records) in this months Uncut magazine, the reviewer states that the first track 'Eyen' "...recalls Wire in one of their more elegant and laid-back instrumental moments." Can't see the similarity myself, although it is a very fine record. Anyone else think it sounds like Wire? Have a listen to it here. Its the first track. http://www.warprecords.com/frameset.php?section=/ography/release.php?cat=WARP84 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:12:51 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] next to wire hi all, been away from the ol puter for a while. deleted hundreds of emails...sorry most were from you guys (and gals?) but i just couldn't go through em all. this subject line looked interesting though, and sure enough, it's just the silly kind of thing i have time to add my post to: vinyl: wah, the wake, wall of voodoo, weekend, windy & carl, WIRE, woo cds: tom waits, wedding present, white glove test, windy & carl, WIRE, xtc my cds by the wake and wolfgang press are in the factory and 4ad sections i mentioned a while back, and victoria williams is with the ipr and other cardboard sleeves in a box, awaiting the shelf i'll probably never get around to putting up, otherwise they'd be in there too :o) - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:47:39 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Its a Rip Off! > I wonder if perhaps the first 3 Wire albums might have > sold a few more copies than EMI are willing to admit? > And how much was that? Anyone know? giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:01:21 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] OffTopic - Situation In Israel Sorry for the political note, but if anyone's interested in listening to a detailed interview about the current situation of the Israeli-Palestibian conflict as viewed by the Israeli radical left, there's an interview with Prof. Tanya Reinhardt, prof. of linguistics in Tel-Aviv university, conducted a few weeks ago, about the situation. Any comment that you'd like to send me about that is welcome. http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/display.php3?article_id=4010 giluz [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of IndyMedia Center - news.url] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:55:59 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] OT - illconceived venues/strange gigs re :ill conceived venues/strange gigs thread... all the following is totally true, all the same band, in no particular order, all in the UK. 1. Festival in a West Country field - to raise money for Joan Collins' daughter's Leukaemia fund, supporting It Bites and Steeleye Span... 2. Ice rink in the Thames Valley - with MC Buzz B, no covering on the ice (...or cows, before any smart alec writes in...), punters have to hire skates in order to get close to the stage. 3. Lindisfarne, (Holy Island) - TV special, drummer has to ask local fisherman to take a breather from mending his nets in order to whittle him a couple of drumsticks. only required to play two songs in front of island's pub regulars, but like 'consumate troubadours', ended up playing for another 40 or so minutes, come hightide...... Band are cut off from mainland. (Movie trivia - Roman Polanski filmed 'Cul-De-Sac' there!!!) 4. A May Ball at one of the posh colleges at Cambridge Univ. - in front of what is now, possibly, half of todays Government. Band are given free tokens for the 'other attractions', including an inflatable Moonwalk, in which a hitherto rabble of 'Henry's' were well and truly usurped by the lead guitarist diving towards them in classic 'YOU'RE ALL FUCKING SNOBS' mode. Band also severely reprimanded by 'authority figure' for playing football on the lawn. 5. Midlands Tax Office Redundancy Party - Band booked by a couple of employees/fans who were possibly the only people that knew who the band really were, and in turn, also made sure that the band were paid handsomely, despite a dumbfounded and obviously 'in the mood for dancing' audience. Comment to bass player as they were loading up, 'You've got potential, but you should do some cover versions, y'know, the Beatles and all that'. Quite right too. (written with permission...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:36:57 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic - Situation In Israel well now my understanding might be a bit on the simplistic side (you see my grandad was in the IRA) but I think it goes something like this: the Palestinians want to kill the Jews and the Jews want to kill the Palestinians...did I leave something out? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:21:54 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] hmmmm a little help would be nice ok gents (and ladies..though I've only seen a few here) I am looking for some of that keen British insight regarding things musical. Instead of arguing about radiohead, HELP me! A friend of mine, a right wanker as you blokes would say, used to travel to England way back when and he would record tapes there. Then he'd make me a copy with NO liner notes whatsoever. I have, on a compilation tape that is over 20 years of old age, a recording of a band, lead singer female, that I think is called Vermillion. I think the title of the song is "I Can't Stop Fucking Around" , at least that is what is sung as the chorus and it ends with the rejoinder "eat me" . She sings " a scarlet woman has got no soul, she loves her man until she's got a hole, when everything starts looking good, that's when she falls for no good". Another song features a male voice singing "You're so hideous, you're not one of us. Let me make it clear to you, I don't want you." Then there's another tune (male singer) " I ain't never been nothin' I ain't never had nothin' I wanna go out in a puff of smoke I'm gonna go out in a puff of smoke" Then there's a tune: Millions Like Us which I think is the Purple Hearts(??). Next up is something that sounds very much like "Midget Submarines" with a great cacophony of sound at the end of it. Then a tune that goes "black ones black ones, your face don't fit, black ones black ones, you ain't no Brits" "brown ones brown ones your face don't fit...etc Next up is another female singer: "In the beginning there was a void, except for the written word...see how they run, sheep to the fold...now I got my bleeding heart and I wear my crown of thorns...read another bible story, I've got to find the truth..." If any of these ring a bell please help out this poor Copyist! ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #182 *******************************