From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #170 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, June 1 2001 Volume 04 : Number 170 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Vinyl vs digital ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] Re: [idealcopy] Vinyl Crap! Digital Good! [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] RE: Alphabetization/storage/clutter: ["wiremailorder.com" ] RE: [idealcopy] OT: Solo Fall (was collective completism) [John Roberts <] Re: [idealcopy] ACH ["Bryan Olson" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Solo Fall (was collective completism) [MarkBursa@aol.] [idealcopy] colin v's the beat generation [Alistair Tear ] [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V4 #164 ["Wilson, Paul" ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: DVD vs Video [Miles Goosens ] [OT] Physics 202 (was Re: [idealcopy] OT - minidisc, yes or no?) [Paul Pi] Re: [idealcopy] OT - minidisc, yes or no? [fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Vinyl vs digital > Which reminds me- there can be no more ridiculous > marketing concept than the 'picture CD' !! Not to mention that pictures on CDs can ruin the aluminum, if the ink doesn't meet Philips' specifications. I had one silkscreened CD go bad on me. (I have a few more oxidized CDs, but they went bad for other reasons.) It was.... .....New Order's Technique! Fancy that! Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 01:30:32 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: [idealcopy] [OT] I found it - CD vs Vinyl comparison Hi everyone, Here's a repost of the CD vs Vinyl comparison I wrote awhile ago. It's not all of the post, but the vinyl/CD comparison section only. Cheers, Paul - ---------- > Vinyl: > Pros: Continuously variable voltage (analog - no digitization) of audio > waveforms. No decay due to oxidation. Can have frequency response up to > 40 kHz - although this requires special vinyl and stylus to achieve (the > old CD-4 quadraphonic system did this, for example.) > > Cons: Styluses wear grooves at contact point. Dust and dirt a problem. > Frequency response drops and distortion rises as the stylus reaches the > inside of the record (constant angular veolicty of record at 33 or 45 means > the actual linear veolcity gets slower and slower). Groove deformation of > vinyl as stylus plays - the bow "shockwave" effect. Medium signal to noise > ratio due to vinyl impurities. Warps and eccentricity in vinyl causes > audible speed errors in playback. Incorrectly calibrated tone arm can > cause errors in playback (i.e. tracking pressure, alignment). Poor channel > separation. Average impulse response. > > CD: > Pros: Ruler flat frequency response from 20 Hz - 20 kHz. High signal to > noise ratio at normal audio levels (see cons). Pure impulse response, if > correct filtering is used (no additional harmonics) (see cons). Excellent > channel separation. No degradation to sound quality either due to location > of track on disc, or repeated playback of disc. Convenient packaging. > > Cons: Distortion rises as signal level falls. (At 1 bit resolution, which > is the lowest signal, CD achieves 100% THD or a square wave for an incoming > sine wave.) 44 kHz sampling rate too low for human perception - we can > "hear the snapshots", if you will. Same with 16 bit digital words - not > enough resolution for human perception. Far less user adjustments possible > - you're at the mercy of the system designers with regards to such things > as filtering design and D/A converter linearity. Discs can oxidize. > Waveforms not continuously variable unlike the incoming signal - made up of > "snapshots" which have to stitched back together (although higher sampling > rates can help mask this). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:08:59 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ACH That's a great story. I have a friend who wraps speakers and Hi-Fi equipment in cling film. It's a dust thing. C "squonk" on 01/06/2001 03:54:49 Please respond to "squonk" To: idealcopy@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: [idealcopy] ACH an old roommate of mine (male) back in da day of analogue had interesting filing habits he would bring a new album home and time each track with a stopwatch recording the *correct* track listing an times on a 3x5 card (filed alphabetically) he then replaced the record in the sleef with the Side A label facing straight up this individual was *not* particularly fastidious in all other aspects of life, favouriong the then fashionable nylon 'parachute pants' because one could sponge them off and not waste time in the laundry he has mellowed since the advent of CDs and the general onslaught of life (and improved his personal hygene as well as his wife would attest) The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 06:25:39 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Solo Fall (was collective completism) They wre quite entertaining live - saw them at the Fridge in Brixton once. But there was a general air of shambling indie-ness that gave the Creepers a limited shelf-life. ///// too true. i saw them once supporting terry & gerry and it was ok but hardly earth-shatterring. later i saw the creepers without lard support psychic tv. less said about that the better.p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:54:57 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] alphaJames Wow! Great. Does anyone know of an English company offering the same product. Chris. eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) on 01/06/2001 05:12:35 To: idealcopy@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] alphaJames Alphabetization/storage/clutter: << in the fine modular storage units of the CanAm company >> I also use CanAm cabinets to store my alphabetized CDs where Wire can be found between Warsaw and World Party. Eric The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 04:01:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] IAITB Miles said: "people's perception of the sound of the show seems to have varied wildly depending on their location." The sound problems I am referring to are actually from the recording. Apparently, it needed quite a lot of sorting prior to the actual CD release. However, as we said on the night, things were vastly different depending on location, but that's always the case in such a large venue, I guess. "I have no problems with what they picked, but I'd love to have "Mercy," "Madman's Honey," "Two People in a Room," "A Serious of Snakes," "Strange"... " "Mercy" didn't appear due to it being on "Third Day". As for the others, I think "Strange" is the only one I'd have liked to have seen on the CD. "Snakes" is so bloody boring, "People" was fun, but shambolic, and I still prefer "Honey" with the snares back in... (plus they messed up the start of that track...) Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:03:53 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Vinyl Crap! Digital Good! Tim, << I think bands are starting to realise that just because CDs hold 74 mins doesn't mean they need to use the whole disc. Seems to be a trend back to the 45 minute mark. See the new Mogwai LP for example.<< See also Radiohead. There must have been an argumnent for condensing Kid A and Amnesiac into one 70-minute album, releasing three singles and using the leftovers as B-sides. Instead they've made two well-sequenced 40-minute albums, which is far more satisfying. >> On the other hand, a lot of electronica needs those extra minutes. The likes of Autechre need room to breathe which CD allows. >> Not sure I agree with that. 70 minutes of Autechre is too much for me at one sitting! >> I don't see MD as replacing CD, but its just nice for recording on. If they could drag the price of the players down it would make a nice replacement for Cassette. Superb for making compilations on (it records in real time, but you can then edit, fade, swap tracks round, chop bits out etc). And they are lovely little things!<< It certainly has advantages over CD-R - once you fuck up, start again (OK it is possible to skip bits, at the expense of the recording length). I've been backing up a lot of cassette stuff to CD-R and it's nice to be able to file it properly! (here we go again!) >>From a muso point of view, Minidisc is also a very good substitute for DAT which seems to be dying off. We used to use DAT for gigs till our machine broke. CD-R is no good as CD players skip when placed near a PA or Bass amp, but Minidisc don't!<< Ultimately this will surely go to some hardware-based set-up? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:05:48 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: Alphabetization/storage/clutter: I must admit that Wire et al take up their own precious space... they're neighbors are Tide Laundry detergent and an old fishing tackle box filled with god-knows-what in the pantry (where all our cds are!) charles shop@wiremailorder.com http://www.wiremailorder.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:10:17 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - minidisc, yes or no? Ian, Depends what you want to do. If you want to back up stuff from vinyl or tape, I'd go for CD-R. This is also good if you make compilations from CDs etc. Minidisc seems to have more flexibility if you want to edit the recording once you've made it, but against that is the need to buy a separate minidisc walkman etc if you use them. If you've already got a CD walkman or an in-car CD player you'll be able to play the CDRs on those. Personally I'd recommend the Pioneer CD-R machines (I think the latest is the PDR-609). I have the previous model (PDR-509) which is very similar. Richer Sounds do these for under #200. Mark << general shout out to all, particularly the 'techno-heads'... as i've mentioned before on the list, my old cassette tape deck died a few weeks ago, i'm seriously considering a portable minidisc player to replace it, over anything else. however, there have been conflicting opinions, just recently, about the pro's and con's of this format. i'd appreciate a few more views on this before i splash out (but nothing too detailed please!). eg, will minidisc last a while as a format? comparisons to other digital recording methods, prices...that kind of thing, thanks in anticipation, ian.s.j. >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 04:54:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: [idealcopy] next to wire In my collection Wire reside in this run of W's: Wailers/Walking Seeds/The Wall/Wartime (one off H Rollins thing)/Wild Flowers (used to play five a side against them)/Win/Wire/Wishing Stones/Wolfgang Press/Wolfhounds/Woodentops/World Domination Enterprises. That seems like a lot of W's... More than in a whole hour with Jonathon Ross. John Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:24:09 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Solo Fall (was collective completism) Scanlon left before the big punch up when Hanley et al left. He's not on Light User Syndrome. As I understood it Scanlon simply felt he'd ran out of ideas which probably explains why he hasn't picked a guitar up in anger since. They desperately need some creative elements in the Fall these days. They were pretty dire last time I saw them. John - --- giluz wrote: > > Hanley and Burns formed a band called Ark after > they left the > > Fall. They did > > play some gigs but no records have been released. > Sadly Craig > > Scanlon hasn't > > picked up a guitar since MES threw him out, > according to a recent > > interview. > > Taking out a small onion, the old curmudgeon said > throwing Craig > > out was his > > biggest regret. > > Nothing ever prevented an ex-Fall member to return > to the Fall. I think > maybe 50% of the people that got thrown out returned > for an album or two > before leaving again (Brix, Bramah, Riley, Burns, > etc.). But as much as I > like Scanlon, I think Hanley should be MES' biggest > regret - certainly one > of the best bass players ever. > > giluz Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 05:46:42 -0700 From: "Bryan Olson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ACH that sounds a lot like me, except I didn't wear parachute pants, and I used to do that with CD's. Of course, I'd use the timer on the CD player. I'm glad to know I'm not the only person who was once obsessive compulsive about music. - ----- Original Message ----- From: squonk To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 7:54 PM Subject: [idealcopy] ACH > an old roommate of mine (male) back in da day of analogue had interesting > filing habits > he would bring a new album home and time each track with a stopwatch recording > the *correct* track listing an times on a 3x5 card (filed alphabetically) > he then replaced the record in the sleef with the Side A label facing straight > up > this individual was *not* particularly fastidious in all other aspects of > life, favouriong the then fashionable nylon 'parachute pants' because one > could sponge them off and not waste time in the laundry > > he has mellowed since the advent of CDs and the general onslaught of life (and > improved his personal hygene as well as his wife would attest) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:47:42 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Solo Fall (was collective completism) John, << They desperately need some creative elements in the Fall these days. They were pretty dire last time I saw them. >> ...though they were pretty good at the RFH last year. And The Unutterable is the best album since Hanley & Scanlon left. Mind you, only MES and Julia Nagle are still there from that line-up... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:50:57 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] colin v's the beat generation >>wireviews...wrote >>(the one where Colin is holding up a piece of card with various stuff printed on) Echoes of dylan discarding placards with the lyrics of 'subterranean homesick blues' in the opening scene of 'Don't look back' now much imitated... s'funny, but the only one I can recall colin holding is the one saying 'everything after pink flag sucks' probably because it's such an outrageous statement & maybe some sad retard would agree... btw and off-t, great documentary on bbc last weekend about the beats (corso, ferlinghetti etc) In one scene alan ginsberg and dylan are stood by the (tribute-laden) grave of jack kerouac 'is this how you'll end up?' asks ginz 'nah, i'll have an unmarked grave..' quoth the bobster cool as f**k! chill dudes A ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:11:08 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - the feng shui conspiracy Ian wrote: by the way, i have my vinyl > alphabetically but not my > cd's and tapes, does this mean i've got a split > personality? or does it > merely reflect my attitude to the latter > formats...mind you, > i am a Gemini...so that means i'm just normal right? > right? > oh god, now i'm worried...NURSE!!!! 1. If Feng Shui is a lot of pants then what is astrology? 2. I also have my LPs in alphabetical order but my tapes and CDs and videos are all over the place. 3. I am also a Gemini. (Which suggests that birthdays for the both of us are imminent - June 12 me). Better have a look at this Feng Shui malarky... John Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 07:20:39 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Gag Blatant plug for mates' band. All those who were reminiscing about the days of Big Flame and other Ron Johnson faves might be interested in these fine noises: http://mp3.com/gag John Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:23:31 +0100 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V4 #164 Subject: [idealcopy] OT - the classical treatment Stephen wrote re:- "The Eternal -Variations on Joy Division" by the nau ensemble. Has anyone else heard this fine/foul record ? yes, bits. as usual, an interesting idea in theory... Metallica also had the same treatment, with similar results, eg, 'yeah, ok, so...?' ian.s.j. Well, I've got this, and I reckon it's brilliant. It gets far more plays than any of my Joy Division albums! rezmole ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:32:11 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] WhitechapelVernacular I've just called the Whitechapel Gallery. They'll know on Tuesday if the event is still on. They are still waiting for a licence for the event. C "Ian B" on 31/05/2001 21:45:39 To: "ideal copy" cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] WhitechapelVernacular - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jan J Noorda "> Sad news about the Vernacular event organised by Blast First. This is what the mute.com web-site says. The mentioned event due to take place later this year has been cancelled due to licence problems". Jan, in the just-out new edition of The Wire (for June 2001) all the events associated with this series are listed, many with individual adverts. Wire are advertised as due to play at the Whitechapel Gallery at 8pm on July 7th (tickets #15 (www.ticketweb.co.uk); on the same day an installation by Wire is open from 10am to 5pm at the same venue - admission free. Unsurprisingly the Pinkflag website has no news. Can anybody else confirm? The Wire also lists Bruce Gilbert as appearing June 4-7 at some London venue called Spitz (tel 020 7392 9032) along with several others. The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:37:35 +0100 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: DVD vs Video Errmm. DVD vs. Video. Yes, I agree, DVD is far, far better, but I had to return THREE copies of Disney's Dinosaur before I got one that would play OK!!! One wouldn't play at all, and the other two kept jumping / stopping / crashing / whatever. I also have a Pokemon DVD on which the picture breaks up in certain places (possibly due to a small fingerprint on the disc, from my lad (for whom the DVD's were bought!) Looks like DVD's are VERY susceptible to surface dirt. At least with video, a bit of distortion / snow etc. didn't stop you from watching them. Same thing with CD vs vinyl. When a CD starts jumping - boy does it jump! I have about 700 LP's on vinyl and 400 on CD, and I reckon I have more problems with the CD's. It seems that CD players only last about 3 years before you need to replace them too (or get the laser lens professionally cleaned), whereas cleaning a stylus is a doddle - one quick rub with the green stuff (a small piece of special green sandpaper) keeps it pristine. Perhaps the best digital format ever will turn out to be the one we all discarded (DCC). rezmole ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:13:41 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: DVD vs Video At 03:37 PM 6/1/2001 +0100, Wilson, Paul wrote: >with the CD's. It seems that CD players only last about 3 years before you >need to replace them too (or get the laser lens professionally cleaned), ??? My CD player is still the first one I purchased, a Sears one (I suspect it's a Sony manufactured under the Sears nameplate) from 1987. I have one of those lens-cleaner discs that I run maybe once a year. The only maintenance it's ever required was replacing the tray belt that open and closes the CD tray. We also have a Sharp boombox from 1988, and its CD player is still functioning too. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:41:32 +0100 From: "Garry Phillipson" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #168 Subject: Re: [idealcopy] collective completism & quantum mechanics Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:38:49 EDT HeySean@aol.com remarked: "... And by the way Schrodinger's probabaility wave as found in the Copenhagen Interpretation is now seen as quaint compared to modern thought." This isn't exactly on-topic, but all the same I'd like to know what 'modern thought' is, who is thinking it, where it's writ up. I like John Gribbin's book 'In Search of Schrodinger's Cat' a lot - do I now have to forget everything in there? And then again (slightly less OT) the last track on Can's 'Soon Over Babaluma' is called 'Quantum Physics', is that a quaint or a modern interpretation? Cheers, GarryP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:41:56 -0700 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - minidisc, yes or no? hi, Having both, though the CDR through a computer... I would agree that the first thing to get is a CDR, then a minidisc. This also combats any concerns about the marketplace. I personally get any format that the music comes in (though I lack an 8-track), or makes it convenient to record shows. I am at the moment considering the stereo-unit CDR... because I do not want to play analog/minidisc/DAT into the computer. I love the minidisc because the quality for all things rock/electronic leaves cassettes in the dust... the effect of the compression scheme used, is that sometimes the dynamic range is compressed, and some sounds seem louder than on the original CD... but I can live with that. I am not too concern about its survival vs. MP3... this is more about hype and marketing than actual quality/convinience, and since I am not download-MP3 driven (don't do it at all, actually), it is not a consideration. Minidiscs in the US are not picking up fast enough, given that most models remain in Japan... as long as they are popular there (as they are), I think that it will be fine for available supplies... with the new format (MDLP) which allows 74 x1, x2 or x4 recording times, it is really hard to loose with the format... even for backing up vinyl, which does very nicely. The 74x4 recording is rather lossy, but the 74x2 has hardly any difference in sound, for most material. I also like the protective casing of MDs, vs. the scratch prone CDs. cheers! - -fernando PS The home units of CDR here in the US require that you buy these more expensive blank CDs, which is ridiculous... so find out about a unit that can defeat this protection... if not, the minidisc media (at around $1 per disc) then becomes more inexpensive. PPS in regards to the comment on analog being a pure waveform... that is only true in display... in a pedantic way, the analog in any format is still "digital" by the nature of atoms, and not light-like properties... also, mathematically and ideally, you can recover a sampled signal, so the "analog" just has excess information that is not required, and thus makes it more prone to noise. At 07:10 AM 6/1/01 -0400, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >Ian, > >Depends what you want to do. If you want to back up stuff from vinyl or tape, >I'd go for CD-R. This is also good if you make compilations from CDs etc. > >Minidisc seems to have more flexibility if you want to edit the recording >once you've made it, but against that is the need to buy a separate minidisc >walkman etc if you use them. If you've already got a CD walkman or an in-car >CD player you'll be able to play the CDRs on those. > >Personally I'd recommend the Pioneer CD-R machines (I think the latest is the >PDR-609). I have the previous model (PDR-509) which is very similar. Richer >Sounds do these for under #200. > >Mark > ><< general shout out to all, > particularly the 'techno-heads'... > as i've mentioned before on the list, > my old cassette tape deck died a few weeks ago, > i'm seriously considering a portable minidisc player > to replace it, over anything else. > however, there have been conflicting opinions, > just recently, about the pro's and con's of this > format. i'd appreciate a few more views on this > before i splash out (but nothing too detailed please!). > eg, will minidisc last a while as a format? > comparisons to other digital recording methods, > prices...that kind of thing, > thanks in anticipation, > ian.s.j. >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:34:51 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - minidisc, yes or no? Fernando, << PS The home units of CDR here in the US require that you buy these more expensive blank CDs, which is ridiculous... so find out about a unit that can defeat this protection... if not, the minidisc media (at around $1 per disc) then becomes more inexpensive. >> The audio CD-Rs here sell for well below #1 each so I'm sure they can be found in the US for around $1, especially if you buy in bulk! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:07:55 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - minidisc, yes or no? At 10:41 AM 6/1/2001 -0700, fernando wrote: >PS The home units of CDR here in the US require that you buy these more >expensive blank CDs, which is ridiculous... so find out about a unit that >can defeat this protection... Outside of tinkering with a consumer unit to defeat the protection, professional-level CD-R standalone units (such as HHB, Marantz, Tascam) allow you to make protection-free discs. American Digital has a selection of these recorders. But they cost $500-$1000, as opposed to the $200-$300 that the consumer units go for. I'm gonna buy a(n?) HHB if I ever save up the dough. later, listowner Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:35:58 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: DVD vs Video In a message dated 01/06/01 15:44:04 GMT Daylight Time, P.Wilson@bury.gov.uk writes: > . It seems that CD players only last about 3 years before you > need to replace them too (or get the laser lens professionally cleaned), > whereas cleaning a stylus is a doddle - one quick rub with the green stuff > (a small piece of special green sandpaper) keeps it pristine. > > Outrageous statement ! My Pioneer PD60-30 was bought in 1988 & (touch wood) it has served me magnificently.Boy has it been played ! Regards Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 15:02:28 EDT From: Hatsephsut@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] catching the word - Off Topic? I'm a female list member - didn't someone ask if there were any? and have others responded? organization - I once attended a management seminar where they said that if you're looking for something and you go to the general area where it should be and you find it within 15 minutes you're organized - it's been my credo ever since - hence Wire is somewhere in the stacks of CDs on my desk - uncerimoniously mixed in with Buzzcocks, Ramones, Naked Raygun, Lynyrds Innards, Big Black, Bad Manners, Pegboy, the Jam, Social Distortion, Monty Python, Pete Shelley, Steve Diggle, Derek and Clive, some hair metal stuff, some heavy metal stuff, some punk stuff, some compilations, some "classic oldies" and a host of various others I can't tell you because I can't even see half the spines because they're tossed willy-nilly - once every 6 months or so I gather all the CDs from around the house and car and match up inserts, cases and CDs and place them all neatly and alpha by artist in their bins on the shelves next to the stereo - and then it starts over again when my son and I go "ooohhhh, aaaahhhh, I haven't seen that one for a while" and start pulling them out again - my son operates on the same system I do - my daughter and Joey have a life of shared enjoyment and grief ahead of them trying to get us to keep our hands off their carefully filed, sorted and spectacularly pristine condition collections Laurel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:05:10 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: [OT] Radiohead (was Re: [idealcopy] Vinyl Crap! Digital Good!) >See also Radiohead. There must have been an argumnent for condensing Kid A >and Amnesiac into one 70-minute album, releasing three singles and using the >leftovers as B-sides. Instead they've made two well-sequenced 40-minute >albums, which is far more satisfying. > You know, I've been listening to Amnesiac today. And I have to admit that I would have probably preferred taking Kid A and Amnesiac and condensing them down into one killer 70 minute album, instead of two mostly brilliant albums. There are just enough songs on both albums that I automatically skip over. I have no idea how you'd sequence the track listing for such a beast, though. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 12:12:45 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] RE: DVD vs Video >Perhaps the best digital format ever will turn out to be the one we all>discarded (DCC). Ha ha ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha. Boy - that's a good one. ....um.... you *were* kidding, right? (Uh oh - I'm in trouble...) (^_^;) Seriously, though - DCC was pretty mediocre from what I could tell. I never owned one of these beasts, but the reports of decks dying after a year or so was enough to convince me that I probably didn't want to get into that format. (It was something about the 18 gap tape head failing after about a year.) The compression was supposed to be pretty good, but I had heard some audio experts rumbling about that as well. At least Mini-Disc knew its market - as an advanced replacement for cassettes. DCC was trying to replace CDs/DATs - scary... Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:36:14 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: [OT] Physics 202 (was Re: [idealcopy] OT - minidisc, yes or no?) Hi everyone, Cool - it's physics time once again! Get out your thinking caps...here's some comments I have. Discuss please. >PPS in regards to the comment on analog being a pure waveform... that is >only true in display... in a pedantic way, the analog in any format is >still "digital" by the nature of atoms, and not light-like properties... This statement seems a little bit disingenuous. Analog systems have a defining characteristic, which are that the waveforms to be reproduced are recorded with physical "analogs" - copies, if you will - of the signals, not as numerical representations. Sure, the atoms make the waveforms fundamentally discrete instead of infinitely variable waves. (Heck - time may be discrete as well, according to some physicists) But, I believe that saying "the analog in any format is still 'digital' by the nature of atoms" is misleading - there's no numeric step involved here. Only the discrete sampling nature is similar, and even that is not exactly the same because digital sampling happens at exact intervals, whereas the atoms would have a more or less random structure. >also, mathematically and ideally, you can recover a sampled signal, Yes, this is true. But, part of the recovery includes an "interpolation" step - i.e. in the early CD player designs this was the capacitor placed in the output stages to smooth out the errors in quantization and sampling to recover the waveform shape. If you don't have enough digital resolution (sample rate and quantization levels), this interpolation can only approximate the waveform - there will be errors which don't occur in analog systems. >so the >"analog" just has excess information that is not required, and thus makes >it more prone to noise. > Again, this statement is disingenuous. The "excess" information is not what makes it more prone to noise. Noise can creep into either type of system - analog or digital. The trick is that since analog systems have an "analog" of the waveform, any deviation of that waveform shows up as noise. If you have a robust enough "analog" storage medium, then the noise is lowered. Don't get me wrong - I do like digital systems. There are very cool things about Digital theory. But, I'm also not rejecting analog systems out of hand. It really does depend on what you're trying to do. Interesting side note: At one point, Philips was considering making the CD format analog - not digital. It would have used an FM modulation scheme much like Hi-Fi audio on videotape or the old analog tracks on LaserDisc. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:34:55 -0700 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - minidisc, yes or no? Hey Miles, thanks for the link... I am considering getting the HHB unit for non-time critical recordings... and saw it at bhphoto.com at $800... but it is good to know of a different place. thanks, fernando At 01:07 PM 6/1/01 -0500, Miles Goosens wrote: >At 10:41 AM 6/1/2001 -0700, fernando wrote: > >PS The home units of CDR here in the US require that you buy these more > >expensive blank CDs, which is ridiculous... so find out about a unit that > >can defeat this protection... > >Outside of tinkering with a consumer unit to defeat the protection, >professional-level CD-R standalone units (such as HHB, Marantz, Tascam) >allow you to make protection-free discs. American Digital > has a selection of these recorders. But they cost >$500-$1000, as opposed to the $200-$300 that the consumer units go >for. I'm gonna buy a(n?) HHB if I ever save up the dough. > >later, > >listowner Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:54:44 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] catching the word - Off Topic? QED!!!! Mark << I'm a female list member - didn't someone ask if there were any? and have others responded? organization - I once attended a management seminar where they said that if you're looking for something and you go to the general area where it should be and you find it within 15 minutes you're organized - it's been my credo ever since - hence Wire is somewhere in the stacks of CDs on my desk - uncerimoniously mixed in with Buzzcocks, Ramones, Naked Raygun, Lynyrds Innards, Big Black, Bad Manners, Pegboy, the Jam, Social Distortion, Monty Python, Pete Shelley, Steve Diggle, Derek and Clive, some hair metal stuff, some heavy metal stuff, some punk stuff, some compilations, some "classic oldies" and a host of various others I can't tell you because I can't even see half the spines because they're tossed willy-nilly - once every 6 months or so I gather all the CDs from around the house and car and match up inserts, cases and CDs and place them all neatly and alpha by artist in their bins on the shelves next to the stereo - and then it starts over again when my son and I go "ooohhhh, aaaahhhh, I haven't seen that one for a while" and start pulling them out again - my son operates on the same system I do - my daughter and Joey have a life of shared enjoyment and grief ahead of them trying to get us to keep our hands off their carefully filed, sorted and spectacularly pristine condition collections ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:00:21 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [OT] Radiohead (was Re: [idealcopy] Vinyl Crap! Digital Good!) Paul, Personally I'm happier with the way they are. One trick Radiohead does seem to be able to pull off is sequencing the tracks on their albums - with CDs in mind. (the vinyls of Kid A and Amnesiac are double 10inches BTW). It's a massively underrated part of what makes a great record. Try and imagine, say, 154 in any other order (especially considering the 'two sides of vinyl'). One that isn't right that springs to mind is the La's album, which is all over the place (except for the last track). << You know, I've been listening to Amnesiac today. And I have to admit that I would have probably preferred taking Kid A and Amnesiac and condensing them down into one killer 70 minute album, instead of two mostly brilliant albums. There are just enough songs on both albums that I automatically skip over. I have no idea how you'd sequence the track listing for such a beast, though. >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 23:59:30 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] OT - Re: women of the world david mack wrote :- >or was it jim o'rourke? ivor cutler wrote it, j.o'rourke covered it on the 'Eureka' lp ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 00:48:37 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] OT - starsigns (was the feng shui conspiracy) just for the record john, mine's June 8th. yes, day to day astrology is bollocks, however, i think the basic character traits of the houses are too true (!), most of the time, to be totally worthless. look,...i'm communicating again!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:32:16 -0700 From: fernando Subject: Re: [OT] Physics 202 (was Re: [idealcopy] OT - minidisc, yes or no?) Physics? yuck! ... and who reads "PPS" comments anyway? ;-) At 01:36 PM 6/1/01 -0700, Paul Pietromonaco wrote: >Hi everyone, > Cool - it's physics time once again! Get out your thinking >caps...here's some comments I have. Discuss please. > > >PPS in regards to the comment on analog being a pure waveform... that >is > >only true in display... in a pedantic way, the analog in any format is > >still "digital" by the nature of atoms, and not light-like >properties... > > This statement seems a little bit disingenuous. Analog systems >have a defining characteristic, which are that the waveforms to be >reproduced are recorded with physical "analogs" - copies, if you will - > of the signals, not as numerical representations. Yes, it is not numerical per se (bits or any digits)... but it is not of infinite resolution, as some people have argued in other forums... that was my attempt at... not to be disingenuous. >Only the discrete sampling nature is >similar, and even that is not exactly the same because digital sampling >happens at exact intervals, whereas the atoms would have a more or less >random structure. Well, yes, the randomness of the atoms makes it "noisy" in a way -- e.g., the metal in cassette tapes cannot be aligned properly... but the idea is to be able to get the material impregnated with the right charge to be recorded, but there is an error in that -- so, in my mind, the fact that it is analog, it does not mean that what gets written in, is what is read out... so my point, if there was one, is that the fact that analog is "infinite" relative to digital, but it is never retains that accuracy -- kind of like the running watch is never accurate, unless it is stopped, in which case, it is accurate twice each day 9but useless) On the other hand, if I write a digit onto a material (discretize the analog waveform), then I can recover the exact value with higher accuracy... this is what CDs/ZipDisks/etc do. The digits are impregnated in an analog way... they are not read back with the same value, but because it belongs to a finite set, I can (with some controllable certainty) read back the digit I wanted. So, if I read a value of 2.1 volts from a tape (or CD material), and I know that the digits are integer, then I can recover the 2 volts that I thought I wrote with high certainty... but in analog, I would not know what value I wrote in. This is one of the misnomers of analog being more accurate because it has more values... provided, of course, that from the digital, you can recover the original signal... which leads to... > > > >also, mathematically and ideally, you can recover a sampled signal, > > Yes, this is true. But, part of the recovery includes an >"interpolation" step - i.e. in the early CD player designs this was the >capacitor placed in the output stages to smooth out the errors in >quantization and sampling to recover the waveform shape. If you don't >have enough digital resolution (sample rate and quantization levels), >this interpolation can only approximate the waveform - there will be >errors which don't occur in analog systems. Very true... and not-quite on the last sentence. The superiority of digital system comes from the fact that you can *control* the reconstruction error - -- and this would include the assertion of the value that you read from the media, and the interpolation between those values. The engineer can control the sampling rate, resolution bits, interpolation accuracy and the error in reading the values from the media. The point is that you can control the source of distortion better (and cheaper) than what you can do with analog... while there is no interpolation errors in analog (as you point out -- though those interpolated values already in the waveform are not accurate either), the point is that the reading of the analog values can be so distorted, as being worse than the digital representation and reconstruction. One good example would be Cassette. Though magnetic media of the cassette (and the chosen recording speed) creates an amount of noise, when recorded in analog, you can do so much... including the use of noise reduction techniques. However, with the *same* media, you could record a digital waveform that has higher capacity for information, relative to the analog process (in some ways what DAT achieves). This is what I was after... just because it is analog, it is not necessarily better: in theory or in implementation. > >so the > >"analog" just has excess information that is not required, and thus >makes > >it more prone to noise. > > > > Again, this statement is disingenuous. The "excess" >information is not what makes it more prone to noise. Noise can creep >into either type of system - analog or digital. The trick is that >since analog systems have an "analog" of the waveform, any deviation of >that waveform shows up as noise. If you have a robust enough "analog" >storage medium, then the noise is lowered. Yes, true... in a way. But the main thing is what is the information capacity of the channel (or storage media). All storage media is analog. In one, the information is impregnated without any (or little) encoding -- the case for vinyl or cassette -- and in another, the information is impregnated discretely. For the same material, you can store more information in digital, than in analog, or store the same information rate, but with higher resolution in digital. From one perspective, the fact that you are storing excess information in analog, means that you cannot use that redundancy to increase the accuracy of the minimum information required... so you are throwing away storage medium that can be used to increase the accuracy, by storing information that will be read less accurately but does not require interpolation. So, in a way, you are not using effective noise combating tactics, so the analog is more prone to noise as I wrote originally, but not as clear. Sorry. The upshot is that you have to keep the medium constant for analog or digital to make a comparison. Then, for the signal and noise ratio achievable for that medium, you can do better with digital than with analog. > Don't get me wrong - I do like digital systems. There are very >cool things about Digital theory. But, I'm also not rejecting analog >systems out of hand. It really does depend on what you're trying to >do. I am not casting a "side" to your preference, this is all about learning (new material or how to express old ones)... I am just talking medium and achievable accuracies... the digital implementation can suck the big one, and rendering a less efficient analog technology to sound superior... but that is just implementation incompetence, and not the capabilities of each medium. I personally, do like some of the euphonic distortions inherent in vinyl that create the "warmth" that was not available on early CDs. So, I am not dismissing vinyl (for example) either... just saying that it is not more accurate than a digital medium, just because it is "continuous." > Interesting side note: At one point, Philips was considering >making the CD format analog - not digital. It would have used an FM >modulation scheme much like Hi-Fi audio on videotape or the old analog >tracks on LaserDisc. Yeah.. the problem with that is that it is not a good way to store digital information. In storing digital information (or for that matter, transmission over the air), there are many methods to "modulate" or "encode" the digital information... and FM is not a good one, plain and simple. Something like bi-polar voltages is more effective (which is still analog as a waveform, just taking on discrete values). Cheers! fernando ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #170 *******************************