From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #148 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, May 14 2001 Volume 04 : Number 148 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] off topic-REM(ember when they were vital??) ["Paul Pietro] RE: [idealcopy] Why do Pixies sound dated? ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] OT: REM/DM/Orbital [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] Re: Orbital ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] [ot] The politics of dancing [MrSodium@aol.com] [idealcopy] another the (exploded) view ["squonk" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] off topic-REM(ember when they were vital??) > >'up', i've never heard in full, what i did hear underwhelmed me. That sounds about right. (^_^) > to be honest, i started to lose interest in the lp's after 'Green' Green, I didn't care too much for. First Warner Bros. album - a bit of a letdown, somehow. I liked Out of Time a little better, but... > but curiously, for me, still interested enough in the band to buy 'Monster' > which i still likea lot. 'Automatic'...again, i've never heard in full, > only the singles (i hate 'Everybody Hurts'). ... Monster and Automatic were classics, in my book. Automatic is probably their best Warner Bros. work, in my opinion. Skip past Everybody Hurts - the rest of the album is worth it. Can't say I've been a fan of their last two albums. New Adventures... was probably a blast to record, but it's really boring to listen to. And, UP was so underwhelming, I haven't really bothered to listen to the whole thing. (^_^) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:15:36 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Why do Pixies sound dated? > Giluz > >>>>I do like the Pixies, I mean I REALLY like them. > But I tend to refrain from listening to them right now > because they sound so pathetically dated, unlike 70's > or even 80's Wire, for example. Maybe it's because it > makes me feel so old - unlike Wire, I was a Pixies fan > right from the beginning. > > I was too (well from hearing Caribou on the radio > prior to the release of Pilgrim). I don't think their > records sound dated at all. Do you mean dated in terms > of recording techniques or musical style? Maybe it > just seems dated because so many boring GBD groups > have aped them and watered down the influence? > > The thing is here that I still enjoy Pixies records > and Wire records and whether they sound dated or not > doesn't really hinder my enjoyment of them. I remember > back in the Days When Pixies Screamed From The Earth > that I heard Can and dismissed them for just the same > reasons. What a load of dated hippy crap I thought. > Later I came back to them and enjoyed them very much > (after a friend played Father Cannot Yell and I > realised I'd been wrong). Later, especially on Tago > Mago the dated sound of Can later seemed to be not so > dated which is another funny thing about viewing music > from a linear time context. I don't really understand > why music should become any less enjoyable because it > sounds of its time. You've got a point there. I have a bit of a problem with guitar music in the last 10 years, especially guitar music made after 1983. Of course personal taste changes all the time, and I shared a quite similar attitude you had towards Can back in the 80's and changed my mind completely a few years later. But back to the Pixies - Maybe it had to do with my disapointment with the alternative scene of the late 80's, which led to that same guitar 'alternative' style becoming mainstream. It certainly had to do with all of those bands immitating them - I agree with you that the idea behind musical genres is reductionist, but I'm not immune to it. Just like the Brit Pop of the late 90's made me put aside my old Kinks albums and not listen to them for a few years, the Pixies' sound has been done (and quite poorly) too many times for me to fully enjoy it as I did when it was new. In a few months from now I might say the opposite, but that's what I think now. Music is never timeless and is not only dependant on the time and place it was created at, but also on the time and place it's being listend to and reevaluated. > Nothing more intellectual than a lot of people > gathering in a field to shout in unison, "You are the > son of a motherfucker!" Right - an absolutely mystical experience! > Pixies spelt out explicitly what had always been > implicit in rock - the primal scream. > > Wire aren't as easily explained, or are they? Wire has far more layers to their music, and much more sophistication. Pixies were a more straightforward pick up your guitar and rock kinda band (though this definition is reductionist as well - it's just for the comparison). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 03:54:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] OT: REM/DM/Orbital >mr guardian meanwhile gave the REM offerring >3 stars and a pretty mediocre >write-up. the mode , on the other hand , get a 4 >star "back on great form >again" rave review. Most reviews I've seen tend to say both albums are pretty average, which is probably about right. From the stuff I've heard, REM now sound like they did during their 'mid period', ie: Fables of the Reconstruction, etc. Quite frankly, I actually quite like really old REM (Murmur and before) and bits of Automatic and Up, but everything else isn't my tea, including the new stuff. DM, on the other hand, seem to have managed to get out another album that is lacking. Someone should beat Martin Gore over the head when he gets past the 'four ballads' stage, as it's getting really annoying. What I've heard sounds reasonably good, but they are capable of better, and Mark Bell really should have forced out at least a few of the whiny ballads. However, one band that deserves a severe kicking is Orbital. 'The Altogether' must be their death-knell. Sure, there are some magical moments, but i don't think I've ever heard such an inconsistent album, and what that piece of '80s pop-rock is doing in there is anybody's guess. (If it's a joke, it's really not funny.) First review in Future Music I think I've really agreed with (they gave it 5/10...) Craig. PS: Totally OT, but Douglas Adams died on Friday. Another great mind leaves the planet... :-( ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:49:58 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Orbital craig wrote :- >However, one band that deserves a severe kicking is >Orbital. 'The Altogether' must be their death-knell. i've never been a big Orbital fan, i'm not particularly keen on 'techno/dance' in general, outside of a club environment. it struck me whilst viewing 'Chime' on a recent TOTP2, that Orbital could now be termed as 'cabaret techno' considering that 'Chime' is, what, 10 or 11 years old now (of course, i'm applying a 'punk' ethic to all this). i actually went to see them live once (to see what all the fuss was about) and it was one of the most yawnsome experiences of my life. i went in there really wanting to be impressed and ended up leaving halfway through. i think 'The Box' is a classic track, by the way. before all the defending emails come through, i just want to stress that i went out dancing quite a lot from 89 to 94 (Liverpool, Manchester and Stoke mainly) and had some great, great nights ALL without the benefit of certain substances (which i'd given up a year or so before) that promote prolonged dancing stamina!!! listening to 'club-dance' music at home just doesn't happen, so i doubt if i'll ever hear 'The Altogether' ever!!! ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 08:09:01 EDT From: MrSodium@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] [ot] The politics of dancing A belated chime in on being funky: I don't know if it is intelligent or not, but an artfully constructed groove is as meaningful musically to me as any other quality piece of music. The need to attach "intelligent" to dance music arises from the the effort to escape the stigma of a monotonous 4/4 beat, sequenced and programmed apparently without much thought, and such lyrical insights as "Love to love you, Baby" etc. Who was it who said "Fuck Art, Let's dance?" IDM, as typified by the Ae/Aphex school, is no more worthy of being called intelligent by virtue of their being able to program than anyone else, regardless of the end product. I only own one ~swim record, so I'll defer to others who have a basis in fact to address this point. I've always found Clinton to be a bit overrated, but I'm willing to give Hillary a chance. tB ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 06:46:49 -0500 From: "squonk" Subject: [idealcopy] another the (exploded) view the cd is 100% worth the price the book is indeed inessential nex to kevin's ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:00:15 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT:Orbital / clubbing with & without Ecstasy > i've never been a big Orbital fan, i'm not particularly > keen on 'techno/dance' in general, outside of a club environment. > it struck me whilst viewing 'Chime' on a recent TOTP2, > that Orbital could now be termed as 'cabaret techno' > considering that 'Chime' is, what, 10 or 11 years old now > (of course, i'm applying a 'punk' ethic to all this). > i actually went to see them live once (to see what all the fuss > was about) and it was one of the most yawnsome experiences > of my life. I kinda like Orbital, but I've seen them live a couple of years ago and it was indeed a boring experience. > before all the defending emails come through, i just want to > stress that i > went out dancing quite a lot from 89 to 94 (Liverpool, Manchester > and Stoke mainly) and had some great, great nights ALL without > the benefit of certain substances (which i'd given up a year or > so before) > that promote prolonged dancing stamina!!! > listening to 'club-dance' music at home just doesn't happen, so i doubt > if i'll ever hear 'The Altogether' ever!!! There was a TV programme where they went to a rave and had the people there fill out questionaires about their mood and feelings every few minutes. They had one group who took Ecstasy and another that didn't. The amazing thing was that as the party progressed, the results from the 'straight' group were nearly identical to those of the Ecstasy group (also, physically, they didn't have less 'dancing stamina' than the other group, but that's not directly connected to Ecstasy, because that stamina usually comes from speed mixed with the MDMA). The only question that remains to be solved is whether the presence of the Ecstasy users was necessary for the mood of the party, or maybe it would've been the same if no one actually took ecstasy (not so easy to check, that one: Find me a dance club where there isn't someone who took Ecstasy). cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 07:49:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hindman Subject: Re: [idealcopy] off topic-REM(ember when they were vital??) Greeting all~ I recall having been pretty disappointed in REM early on. I think my first exposure was an english magazine called 'Trouser Press' that talked about them in the early 80's. As it was, I listened to a couple of albums and just stopped. After the fact, I did buy 'Green, and 'Out of Time' and still find them my favorites. As such, I thought theses comments were interesting. > > to be honest, i started to lose interest in the > lp's after 'Green' > > Green, I didn't care too much for. First Warner > Bros. album - a bit of a > letdown, somehow. I liked Out of Time a little > better, but... Here's to hoping they get rid of the drunken stupidity and crank out some good music! RJH Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:04:35 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: clubbing with & without Ecstasy giluz wrote :- Find me a dance club where there isn't someone who >took Ecstasy). any club where i was dancing...never bothered with it all, just didn't fancy it. ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 13:43:35 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] off topic-REM(ember when they were vital??) I've bought every REM album to date, and there isn't one I dislike. Sure, some are better than the others, but it's hard to think of a band with such a consistently high quality of output, especially considering the band's high profile. << > >'up', i've never heard in full, what i did hear underwhelmed me.<< I liked it and played it a lot at first, though I lost interest in it after a while. I suspect it may not be their best in the long term, though it certainly has some very good moments... > to be honest, i started to lose interest in the lp's after 'Green' << Both Document and Green had stonking side 1s and less appealing side 2s...so the CD versions tend to drag. The 2 side 1s together make a phenomenal album... >> Green, I didn't care too much for. First Warner Bros. album - a bit of a letdown, somehow. I liked Out of Time a little better, but... > but curiously, for me, still interested enough in the band to buy 'Monster' > which i still likea lot. 'Automatic'...again, i've never heard in full, > only the singles (i hate 'Everybody Hurts').<< Automatic... is a wonderful album, full stop. Monster is a bit disappointing, though the back-to-basics approach was admirable. >> Can't say I've been a fan of their last two albums. New Adventures... was probably a blast to record, but it's really boring to listen to. << It's pretty much recorded live, mainly at soundchecks. Too long, could have been edited better. But like all REM albums, there are some great tracks there... I'm with whoever liked Fables of the Reconstruction. It was panned at the time, but it still stands up to scrutiny. Why does everybody call it Fables of the Reconstruction, not Reconstruction of the Fables? It actually has both titles - one for each side of the vinyl. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:07:16 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: [OT] Radiohead tickets (was Re: [idealcopy] off topic-REM(ember when they were vital??)) > I got mine already. MTV.com had a special promotion. If you sent them your name and e-mail address, then they gave you a password which you could use to order your tickets via the web early! (^_^) (This is for the west coast US tour, BTW.) So, I'm seeing them at the Gorge amphitheater in Washington State, June 23rd. If you haven't seen concerts at this venue, it's pretty amazing. They "built" an amphitheater on the edge of this cliff overlooking the mighty Columbia river - in the summer it's a great place to see a concert. Good luck in your ticket acquisition! Cheers, Paul P.S. I'm watching/listening to the new Radiohead single "The Pyramid Song" courtesy of MTV.com. Man - that's an eerie track.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:13:11 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] off topic-REM(ember when they were vital??) > I recall having been pretty disappointed in REM early > on. I think my first exposure was an english magazine > called 'Trouser Press' that talked about them in the > early 80's. As it was, I listened to a couple of > albums and just stopped. > That's a very interesting reaction. Most R.E.M. fans would consider their first few IRS albums, specifically the Chronic Town EP, Murmur, Reckoning and Fables of the Reconstruction, to be their finest. I did like Life's Rich Pagent, but the new clarity to Stipe's vocals disappointed me somehow. And, I've never managed to get thru the second side of Document - although the Wire cover is nice! (^_^) Hey - I'll admit it. I'm a big fan of their IRS albums. I'm not as keen on the Warner Bros. albums, although Automatic.. is pretty classic. Cheers, Paul (who used to do a few R.E.M. covers in a band a while back.) (And, also got mistaken for Peter Buck a couple of times at the Crocodile Cafe when Peter first moved to Seattle. (^_^) ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 14:28:47 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: [OT] Radiohead << P.S. I'm watching/listening to the new Radiohead single "The Pyramid Song" courtesy of MTV.com. Man - that's an eerie track.... >> If you want to hear the new Radiohead abum, it's on Napster in its entirety... but don't look under Radiohead - the music industry Gestapo has blocked that... You just need to replace two letters in the band's name. Think cowboys.... Mark ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 14:33:24 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] collection frenzy well great news , wire are at number 262 in the record collector "top 500 collectable bands" list. sadly they couldn't quite overcome the might of def leppard(261) or rick wakeman(260) but magnifecently held off the challenge of the partridge family (er , does anyone really actually collect the partridge family?) at 263. still , it could be worse ; killing joke are at number 499 . and no , i have no idea how this was compiled. p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 21:26:19 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] New Mixes for These Days Ambitious Middlesex Gorge > I think its way better than the original - Colin > didn't seem too pleased when I told him that! >>>>Why not? Well this was back in 97 (Bastard time, no Wire activity envisaged)) and I was just boring him with my opinions on Coatings and when I said I thought the best bits were the Peel session and the Middlesex Gorge Ambitious, he just told me he had nothing to do with the Ambitious remix, in a tone that suggested that it wasn't a big favourite of his. He was very enthusiastic about the Madman's Honey remix which he felt should've been a single. >>>>Where does he rank the other version with him taking lead vocal? I have no idea. He told me he had no input on the Ideal copy album version either! Therefore I was misrepresenting his opinion and reading things into a conversation from 4 years ago for which I apologise to Colin. My prefered Ambitious versions are 1. Middlesex Gorge 2. Silk Skin 12" Colin vox 3. Coatings Colin vox 4. Ideal Copy version Actually I always used to skip Ambitious when I first got IC - it seemed a little too close to the Vince Clarke bands for comfort! I began to like the album version a lot more when I read Graham's explanation of the lyrics, which added a whole new dimension to the song. Then Coatings nailed it! When its hot... Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:07:26 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] New Mixes for These Days Graeme, << He was very enthusiastic about the Madman's Honey remix which he felt should've been a single. >> How right he was. Still have no idea how they missed that trick! >>He told me he had no input on the Ideal copy album version either! << According to Kevin's book, he'd abandoned the session, and gone home. EGL & BCG tore down the track, and redid the vocals, presenting it as a fait accompli the next day... >>My prefered Ambitious versions are 1. Middlesex Gorge 2. Silk Skin 12" Colin vox 3. Coatings Colin vox 4. Ideal Copy version<< I was at the gig where they first played it in the UK (Hammersmith Clarendon) - - it screamed "single!" - they even played it again as an encore. None of the recorded versions were as good as that live version - they really nailed it, with a great CN sneering vocal.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:59:05 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT Amazon >>Dear Customer, >>We are sorry to report that the following title has been delayed. >> Labradford "Prazision" >>Our current estimate is that it will take an additional 1-2 weeks >>to obtain this title for you. I ordered this about 5 weeks ago. They'd been advertising it for #7.99 available in 1-2 weeks. Let's face it they haven't got it. C The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #148 *******************************