From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #134 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, April 30 2001 Volume 04 : Number 134 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Not Much Of An Expert on US Hardcore / Punk [MarkBursa@ao] Re: [idealcopy] Not Much Of An Expert on US Hardcore / Punk [John Roberts] Re: [idealcopy] That Burma Mannequin Ubu Emotion [John Roberts ] [idealcopy] MTV Get Off The Air! [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] Re: [idealcopy] IBM; FUCK SHIT UP [Andrew N Westmeyer ] [idealcopy] where's jello (Re: MTV Get Off The Air!) [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] [OT] Always be nice to Fugazi (was Re: [idealcopy] it's a 'G' thing) [Pau] Re: [idealcopy] IBM; FUCK SHIT UP [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] where's jello (Re: MTV Get Off The Air!) [PaulRabjohn@aol] [idealcopy] its a 'G' thing baby ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] its a 'G' thing 2 ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] Ut ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] its a 'G' thing 3 ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] Come ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] Melvin Bragg Broke US Punk for the UK [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=] [idealcopy] Flipped Flag and Punk Perspective (Again) [=?iso-8859-1?q?Gra] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:23:19 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Not Much Of An Expert on US Hardcore / Punk << Yeah, the Smiths and Prefab Sprout were really pushing music to new frontiers at the time weren't they?<< I'd say in terms of lyrical content and general anti-image the Smiths were incredibly radical. No band before or since has hot-wired teenage bedroom angst so directy ir effectively. As for the Sprout, I'm sure Mr McAloon would agree with your analysis. The only concern there was classic songwriting within a framework that has little to do with punk. >> As someone living in the UK in the eighties, US punk (from Husker Du to Pixies to Flipper to Minor Threat to Didjits to Dead Kennedys to... etc etc) was certainly the most interesting thing going on. << As with everything, there was good and bad. A lot of it just seemed retrogressive (eg Black Flag) while others sounded like a refreshing take on 77 punk (eg Husker Du) - which had long slipped off my playlist by the mid-80s... >> So who were all these progressive UK bands? There were just as many in the US, probably many more. >> Of course. But there were equally large numbers of not-progressive bands who were still good... >>>>we'd been through punk in 77 and that had degenerated into crap like Oi bands etc. It had also bred lots of interesting bands... and the idea had escaped and wasn't about to pinned down to a genre! << Precisely my point. Wire/Magazine/PiL/Joy Division/Cabaret Voltaire etc etc etc were, by 1979, clearly not Punk (ie ramalama buzzsaw shouty etc) But there were a load of bands (Discharge. Cockney Rejects, Anti Pasti, Exploited etc etc) who were stylistically "Punk" but were just boring retrograde crap. They missed the point. Some of the US punks were just as bad IMO. And I don't buy the "punk happened later" line. Where were the Ramones from? >>Oi bands were just one tiny aspect, and at least they were funny. << Till you realised half of them were skinhead nazis, yes. ha ha. Thank you Garry Bushell. >>Weren't Sham 69 championed as the future of punk for about 5 minutes by Sniffing Glue? I'd hardly call '154' degeneration!<< I'd hardly call it punk. >>>>I remember hearing Husker Du's Makes no sense at all on Peel one night and it was a revelation - I'd only previously heard Land Speed Record, so had discounted them as 100,000mph thrash... So what did you think of 12XU? << There was the little matter of about 4 years between the two. 12XU was of my time. LSR was of someone else's time and place. Actually 12XU is one of my least favourite Wire tracks (heresy! heresy!) >>I heard Makes No Sense on Peel and loved it but my first impression of the Flip Your Wig LP was just that it was a load of mouldy old rock dough... I soon realised I was totally wrong! New Day Rising and Zen Arcade were way better though! Also the Husker Du singles Amusement and In A Free Land predated Landspeed Record and were as poppy as anything they did!<< A great band. Warehouse is the one for me though... >>You talk about musical progression, yet still judge a band by the singer's haircut???? << Don't understand. People in the UK were very nervous about anything with right-wing overtones, no matter how ironic. >>Yo, ho, ho! I don't think I've ever heard Skrewdriver, but their politics have given them a notoriety which Black Flag earned with their music.<< Actually I'd say Skrewdriver's 1st 2 singles (antisocial and You're so dumb) were better punk records than any BF I've ever heard. The first Skrewdriver album gave no hint of their politics - it was just a good, hard 77 punk album. Only later did they become Nazi scum. Never heard any subsequent records. >> Punks at the UK gigs were also alienated by Black Flag playing tapes of early ZZ Top before they came on.<< I thought they'd be releived at the change from heavy dub reggae, which was the staple for years. Most punks hated it but pretended to like it... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 05:37:49 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Not Much Of An Expert on US Hardcore / Punk I heard Makes No Sense on Peel and loved it but my > first impression of the Flip Your Wig LP was just > that > it was a load of mouldy old rock dough... I soon > realised I was totally wrong! New Day Rising and Zen > Arcade were way better though! Also the Husker Du > singles Amusement and In A Free Land predated > Landspeed Record and were as poppy as anything they > did! The first time I heard them was on a free 7" single that came with the NME. They were doing Ticket to Ride. I heard Flip Yr Wig and NDR a week or so before seeing them play in Leicester. Now *that* was an awesome gig. > > >>>>They played over here with H > Rollins as a skinhead which got misinterpreted. > They > had the song White Minority remember? > > The snotty sarcasm of that song was pretty apparent. > That song was also recorded prior to Rollins' > involvement for what it's worth. > > >>>>One word. Skrewdriver. > > You talk about musical progression, yet still judge > a > band by the singer's haircut???? Yo, ho, ho! I don't > think I've ever heard Skrewdriver, but their > politics > have given them a notoriety which Black Flag earned > with their music. Punks at the UK gigs were also > alienated by Black Flag playing tapes of early ZZ > Top > before they came on. It wasn't that I knew what Black Flag's politics were. But their first UK gig (as far as I know) was when they played the Christmas on Earth festival and the UK music papers (ironically particularly Bushell in Sounds) slated them for being skinheads. This was at the time when Oi was at its peak. Perhaps Bushell was slating them because he thought they weren't genuine Oi or something. I can't remember it was a long time ago. The result was that Black Flag didn't really take off over here for a while. I think ATentacles UK helped matters by licencing Six Pack as a single. John Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 06:41:59 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] That Burma Mannequin Ubu Emotion Mission of Burma. This is the only MoBurma LP I've got. Reminded me of Wire. But also ATV's first album. Hadn't realised that TPE did PUbu's Non Alignment Pact. John - --- Graeme Rowland wrote: > I don't think I ever heard TPE cover Mannequin, but > I > do remember hearing them do > > Pere Ubu - Non Alignment Pact > Neil Young - Cinnamon Girl > Buzzcocks - Nothing Left > Stooges - TV Eye > > I think this might have been the first time I heard > the Pere Ubu and Neil Young songs, but I'm not sure. > They never actually recorded their Mannequin cover > did > they? > > Another band who covered Stooges and Pere Ubu and > who > sound like they were probably quite likely > influenced > by Chairs Missing Wire were the excellent Boston > group > Mission Of Burma. They were one of those rare bands > who seemed to get better with every record and then > stopped (the best one being their posthumous live > album The Horrible Truth About Burma). > > Mission of Burma's cover of Pere Ubu's Heart of > Darkness is pretty impressive (or is it just more of > that 'pretty straight US hardcore'?). I prefer it to > the original, unlike all the TPE covers. > > Anyway Rykodisc recently reissued all their albums > on > CD and you can find out more about that here > http://www.rykodisc.com > > Lock up your hats! > Graeme > > ===== > Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine > http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine > > "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC > Gilbert > Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at > http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:00:00 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] That Burma Mannequin Ubu Emotion John, << > Neil Young - Cinnamon Girl >> A much-covered song! Saw Bob Mould do this when he toured with Tony Maimone and Anton Fier in the band. Very good.... The Feelies version of Sedan Delivery is another great Neil cover... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:16:47 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Mogwai Shields Up! >What else has [Kevin Shields]done (for public ears) apart from the >Wire cover and giving those chancer hippy killer >twerps Primal Scream an undeserved ounce of kudos? He did a remix of the Frank And Walters track "Take me thru this life" that's very interesting. Being in the U.S., I've never heard of the Frank And Walters, so I'll defer critical judgement here. I will say that I'm not impressed by the single that the remix is on (Something Happened To Me), but Kevin's remix is pretty cool. He makes the track sound like a lost out-take from Revolver. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:02:13 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] MTV Get Off The Air! paul r wrote :- //////// agree with the basic point here but i thought a big factor in it all was MTV. the theory being that punk finally "happened" in the US when there was a national medium to get it across to a nationwide base. i've heard it explained that way a few times ; would US listers agree? p Ian replied: i think that's maybe what we've been getting at with this thread, but without using the letters M, T & V, paul. but it's about time someone did, so thank you, the message is the medium, the medium is the message! This is why Dead Kennedys wrote a very funny song called 'MTV Get Off The Air' (Frankenchrist). The first I heard of MTV was in the lyrics of a punk protest song slagging it. "Hi I'm your video DJ, I always talk like I'm wigged out on quaaludes... my job is to help destroy what's left of your imagination by feeding you endless doses of sugar coated mindless garbage... so don't create, be sedate, be a vegetable at home and thwack on that dial... if we have our way even you will believe that this is the FUTURE of rock'n'roll!" Well, Jello didn't appear to be swallowing the bullshit media line. ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:03:02 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Come (Don't Ask, Don't Tell) Ian >>>>Come better than Live Skull or Uzi??? discuss. Come were probably the most underrated guitar group of the last decade of the twentieth century. Whether they were better than either of Thalia's other better known bands depends on better in what respect. Come had greater emotional impact for me, and Thalia Zedek's songwriting skills peaked with the first two Come albums. Uzi used tapes and loops in an interesting way (proabably influenced by fellow Bostonians Mission of Burma). Live Skull had a great dissonant guitar interplay thing going and I think they were another band who finished at their peak - the last 3 albums with Thalia on board are all stunningly three dimensional whereas the earlier ones are more dirgey (still good though). All Thalia's bands have been very emotionally intense and she is an amazing songwriter. I never heard Uzi or Live Skull live (Uzi never made it to the Uk and I think Live Skull only did one tour) but used to hitch around the country to every Come show during their tours with the original rhythm section, I thought they were that great! Actually on one tour they a spare seat in the van and let me ride with them from gig to gig so I didn't have to hitch after the first couple of dates. One thing that I always liked was that they'd change the set every night. Last time they toured the UK they stayed at my house after the Manchester gig. I think they are currently taking a break. Chris Brokaw, the other Come guitarist did some solo gigs and is now playing drums for The New Year (ex Bedhead brothers) and their recent album on Touch & Go is very good - I think you'd like it Ian! Chris also played drums on the excellent Codeine debut Frigid Stars. Eleven: Eleven and Don't Ask Don't Tell rate about as highly as 154 and Chairs Missing in my perception at least. Like Wire and Pixies they have 2 guitars interlocking in a very unique and exciting way. Perhaps they're closer to the dronier Band of Susans, as Come do some very skillful melodic feedback moves. The first 3 times I saw them they were supporting Dinosaur Jr for a tour (just after Where You Been the last Dino album that I gave more than one listen to although the new J Mascis one was much better than later Dinosaur epecially the last track but I digress) and frankly the Dinosaur sets just seemed like mild mannered kiddy pops in comparison. They also blew Throwing Muses away every night on a later UK tour, although Muses held their own better than ol' Mascis, who just seemed to be going throught the motions compared to earlier Dinosaur Jr sets. Come did an album called Melting in the Dark backing Steve Wynn of the (2nd) Dream Syndicate which is way better than anything else I've heard from him since The Days of Wine and Roses. BTW the third Dream Syndicate album Out of the Grey is way better than the second one Medecine Show. There's an interview with Come on my website. I hope Thalia gets round to writing some more songs! What a massively underrated talent she is! So hurry up materialise! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:31:00 -0400 From: "Katherine Pouliot" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] MTV Get Off The Air! This cynical conspiracy theory type of attitude gives me a chuckle and a flashback to my college days. I find it funny that a lot of "punk" people believe that anyone not having this type of attitude in life is someone who is controlled by alpha waves and Mtv's idea of "this is the future of music", etc. So what the Hell happened to Jello Biafra anyway??? just curious... Kath > "Hi I'm your video DJ, I always talk like I'm wigged > out on quaaludes... my job is to help destroy what's > left of your imagination by feeding you endless doses > of sugar coated mindless garbage... so don't create, > be sedate, be a vegetable at home and thwack on that > dial... if we have our way even you will believe that > this is the FUTURE of rock'n'roll!" > > Well, Jello didn't appear to be swallowing the > bullshit media line. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:34:13 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Mark disgrees with Graeme (again!) ;-) Graeme, << BTW the third Dream Syndicate album Out of the Grey is way better than the second one Medecine Show. >> No way! Med. Show is the DS's masterpiece. Side 2 (Medicine Show/John Coltrane Stereo Blues/Merritville) is faultless. Out of the Grey is OK, but Paul Cutler's trad licks aren't a patch on Karl Precoda's raw style... I'd also recommend a DS odds'n'sods comp called It's too late to stop now (vinyl, late '80s) which has a superior version of Slide Away from OOTG, some awesome live stuff (inc Witness, the greatest DS song, which was never recorded in a studio) - as well as a cover of...Cinnamon Girl by Neil Young. Synchronicity again.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:36:06 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] MTV Get Off The Air! Just radio with pictures, isn't it? Plays the same ratio of crap:good stuff.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:40:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] MTV Get Off The Air! On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Katherine Pouliot wrote: > This cynical conspiracy theory type of attitude gives me a chuckle and a > flashback to my college days. I find it funny that a lot of "punk" people > believe that anyone not having this type of attitude in life is someone who > is controlled by alpha waves and Mtv's idea of "this is the future of > music", etc. So what the Hell happened to Jello Biafra anyway??? [was re:] > > "Hi I'm your video DJ, I always talk like I'm wigged > > out on quaaludes... my job is to help destroy what's > > left of your imagination by feeding you endless doses > > of sugar coated mindless garbage... so don't create, > > be sedate, be a vegetable at home and thwack on that > > dial... if we have our way even you will believe that > > this is the FUTURE of rock'n'roll!" Well, rhetorically, punk of the DKs' school always did push things pretty far - but simplified to "if you never bother to think about anything, by default you'll just believe what you're told," I think this is true. It becomes deeply ironic by the time you get to "Maximum RnR"-type orthodoxy, of course... - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::we make everything you need, and you need everything we make:: ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:13:36 -0400 From: Katherine Pouliot Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-MTV, Guitar band (was pretty straight damaged US hardcore) > //////// agree with the basic point here but i thought a big factor in it all > was MTV. the theory being that punk finally "happened" in the US when there > was a national medium to get it across to a nationwide base. i've heard it > explained that way a few times ; would US listers agree? p > MTV is not something I pay attention to anymore, since it seems all the "underground" or "punk" stuff is gone and they don9t devote shows or airplay to those types of bands anymore. It's a shame, really. More than that. Back in the '80s when MTV was fresh, I thought they were great, because I was getting exposed to music that I wasn't hearing on the radio. I know a lot of listers hate the new wave stuff that came out in the '80s but I really enjoyed it. I mean, I was only in my early teens, so give me a break!!! But, even in the later '80's, I set my clock by 120 minutes and taped it religiously. That definitely exposed me to a lot of cool music, punk and not, that I don't think I would have ever been exposed to. I find it hard now to be exposed to that kind of music, since those shows are gone! I'm left with Nocturnal Emissions on WBCN out of Boston, and even that isn't as good as it used to be. I don't know whether that is because music has really changed that much, or because people have? Went to a friend's house party last night and there was a live band (actually 2, but I forget the first). They were quite good for playing in someone's living room! You can download some MP3 samples on the band's web site. It's not punk, but interesting original lively guitar music (I think!) which I think is appropriate to mention given the "guitar bands" thread this week. Give 'em a look: http://www.jabe.net That's my 2 cents for now.... Later, Kath ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:56:19 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] IBM; FUCK SHIT UP From ray)(0) (mac: >IBM - The Oval Recording >thick and gooey >a triple fudge chocolate cake for the ears Playing as I write. I made a tape copy that I play at my work desk every day. This will be, without a doubt, among my best of the year, as was gilbertpossstenger last year. Another: this past weekend I got FUCK SHIT UP by Christian Marclay, Thurston Moore, and Lee Ranaldo. It's a live album, and the title says it all. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:44:30 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Replacements (OT) >From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" >Subject: [idealcopy] Replacements (was Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore) > >Graeme wrote: >>The Replacements - now there's a band who knew how to >>get more boring with every record! And I have them >>all, although it's only the first 3 that I can >>actually listen to anymore. > >I only heard one album - "Tim". Was so bad that I am just afraid to check >the others. Anything by Paul Westerberg that went my way was even worse (the >song on "Singles" soundtrack, iirc? well, the whole ST just sucked, that's >for sure) > >Syarzhuk If all you've heard is Tim and solo Westerberg, I think you would find the early releases (Sorry Ma ...; Repl.'s Stink; Hootanany) surprising. Whether you'd like them or not is another question, of course. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:55:16 -0400 From: "Katherine Pouliot" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] MTV Get Off The Air! > Well, rhetorically, punk of the DKs' school always did push things pretty > far - but simplified to "if you never bother to think about anything, by > default you'll just believe what you're told," I think this is true. Sure, there are plenty of people that fit into a similar type of description and fate. However, just because one watches Mtv (for example, picked out of all sorts of other "mindless" activities) doesn't mean that one never bothers to think about anything, or that as a result one will "just believe" what one is told. That is the point I'm trying to make. >It becomes deeply ironic by the time you get to "Maximum RnR"-type >orthodoxy, of course... ?? Sorry, not sure what you mean here. Guess it's the result of all that Mtv watching! haha... kath ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 15:20:17 -0500 From: "JH3" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] MTV Get Off The Air! Katherine P. writes: >Sure, there are plenty of people that fit into a similar type of description >and fate. However, just because one watches Mtv (for example, picked out of >all sorts of other "mindless" activities) doesn't mean that one never >bothers to think about anything, or that as a result one will "just believe" >what one is told. That is the point I'm trying to make. And it's a good point, but to be fair, I don't think Jello said, or would have *meant*, that anyone who watches MTV is automatically a moron. After all, he would have had to watch it himself for a while in order to come to such a conclusion, right? I think he was just saying that the job of an MTV veejay is to try and *make* you a moron (and, perhaps, a potential H-bomb) -- and whether they succeed or not is up to the would-be moron in question. Whole different kettle o' fish! The punks I knew back in the old days were all genuine humanists, as I recall. (Not including myself, of course...) John "H" Hedges ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:10:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IBM; FUCK SHIT UP Excerpts from mail: 30-Apr-101 [idealcopy] IBM; FUCK SHIT UP by Michael Flaherty@triton. > >IBM - The Oval Recording > > Playing as I write. I made a tape copy that I play > at my work desk every day. I made a CD copy, but since I share an office... (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "Years of dealing with your kind has taught me patience." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:11:18 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] where's jello (Re: MTV Get Off The Air!) In a message dated 4/30/01 2:40:45 PM, kep99@hotmail.com writes: >So what the Hell happened to Jello Biafra anyway??? last time i heard him, he was speaking about how the other dk's got together a law suit (which i believe he lost!...read on) based on the premise that they were entitled to lost royalties or income from their back catalog of tunes jello refused to sell for use in advertising. basically, he was saying that he didn't want his songs (which i also believe he wrote all of, not with the other band members) like holiday in cambodia to appear in airline or travel agency commercials. i think he had a valid point there! there was more to what he was saying, but that was the gist of it. kinda shocking that you can end up having to pay someone "their share" of money you never earned! - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:19:10 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: [OT] Always be nice to Fugazi (was Re: [idealcopy] it's a 'G' thing) ian speaketh: >one band i left out were Fugazi who >i've seen a couple of times. don't rate all their lp's, but as a live >band... > A (small) brush with fame: I worked security for a small, all ages show that a friend of mine put on. My friend was thinking about being a promoter, and he put on two shows here in Seattle. Show #1 was Nirvana, which I missed, unfortunately. This would have been around the Bleach period, but come on - who knew? Show #2 featured another Olympia band (see footnote) - Beat Happening, who were opening for - you guessed it - Fugazi. Steve (my friend) rented the "Sons of Haiti" hall here in Seattle, and got some of his buddies (including myself) to build the stage and work the door. I put together the stage with Tim Paul, who later went on to play bass for Gruntruck, and we hung out while Beat Happening and Fugazi loaded their stuff. Fugazi were very polite, and kinda shy in person. Once the music started, it was a different story, though. (^_^). Fugazi had excellent crowd control, BTW. Kept tight rein on the underage kids, and although there was a lot of pogo dancing, not one person got hurt. Very impressive band. Unfortunately, after that, Steve decided to do something else, so I don't have anymore cool stories along those lines. However, I could talk about the Presidents of The United States, and the Posies... (^_^) Cheers, Paul Footnote: Early on, Seattle-ites actually considered Nirvana an Olympia band, not a Seattle band. Sub Pop started out at the Evergreen State College in Olympia, and tended to feature a lot of local acts. Plus, Aberdeen is closer to Olympia, and I think the Melvins were from Olympia, so Nirvana used to hang out there a lot. It wasn't until Nevermind that Seattle really claimed Nirvana for its own. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:30:49 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IBM; FUCK SHIT UP .......i downloaded the panasonic peel session off napster (with bruce on guitar!) , really enjoyed it but not sure where to go next of the dozens of other PS tracks on there. the wireviews review of IBM didn't make me think it was very "accessible"...... and , by the way , i never could get husker du (or any of bob moulds other very similar sounding post-husker work) at all. love nirvana/pixies but I just couldn't see that something special in HD. for what its worth.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:33:47 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] where's jello (Re: MTV Get Off The Air!) In a message dated 30/04/01 22:24:24 GMT Daylight Time, Eardrumbuz@aol.com writes: > kinda shocking that you > can end up having to pay someone "their share" of money you never earned! > > ///////// the original oasis drummer played on one track on the 2nd album yet managed to get a really big chunk of the royalties as some sort of "exemplary damages" to serve the band right for trying to rip him off. i am trying hard to think of a way to present a similar case to my boss tomorrow , maybe i should go hire a good lawyer? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:48:16 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] its a 'G' thing baby giluz wrote :- I still can't believe that some people on this list think of Kurt Cobain as some lost genius who never lived up to his true potential (or maybe even did live up to it). i hear what you're saying, and to an extent i agree, but quite simply, i thought Nirvana were a generally good, sometimes great band. this is one of those 'yeah, yeah, yeah' things but i was genuinely into them before they went mega, (eg early Peel sessions, Bleach), the 'cult of Cobain' doesn't interest me though it was a sad loss, neither the 'cults' of Lennon, Hendrix, Curtis, Morrison, etc, etc, it happens that i like lots, or some, of their music, that's it. ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:52:52 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] its a 'G' thing 2 Jeffrey wrote :- Depends what you mean by "punk" and what you mean by "happened." If you mean: music that could trace its antecedents back through several steps of removal to something punk-like; and: sold lots of records and got big airplay - then yeah, it did. Nirvana sold really well, and then a whole load of much worse bands way more influenced by Led Zeppelin & Black Sabbath sold even more (Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, the execrable Stone Temple Pilots), which led to a brief moment of "alternative" rock popularity- which almost immediately flamed out into ever-lamer "grunge," bland imitations of early R.E.M. (Gin Blossoms etc.), and - inexplicably - a whole horde of Grateful Dead wannabes, and finally into the truly hideous bad idea of taking the worst of metal, the worst of "funk" (not George Clinton or James Brown but the awful Red Hot Chili Peppers), and the worst of rap into the crap called variously "new metal" or the all-too-appropriately asshole-minded monicker "pimp rock." But if you mean something like, what allowed the spread of punk-influenced music - and here "punk" means something more like finding a way to make music that wasn't dictated by blowdried, ponytailed, pastel-wearing (this *was* the '80s - the _Miami Vice_ years, for those who've mercifully forgotten) record company execs and the walking dead writing for _Rolling Tombstone_...well, no, MTV had nothing to do with it. The bands mentioned above - Black Flag, Husker Du, Replacements, Meat Puppets, R.E.M., Minutemen, Sonic Youth...and the mighty Mission of Burma and Pere Ubu - benefitted not at all from MTV until well after they'd either reached as big an audience as they were ever going to, or after they'd peaked musically. BTW, it's been very interesting for this U.S. lister to read the take of this primarily British list on U.S. music! jeff, couldn't agree more with the genral synopsis. of course, there MAY have been a difference between the UK and US about how MTV was 'perceived', but just like '77, as soon as the mainstream media got hold of 'the grunge explosion', it was all over with and those in the know should or would have been moving on to other things anyway, whilst keeping an eye on what was happening to the dispersal of the rubble. it would have been nice for a more 'European', Latin, Antipodean, Asian, or even African view on all this, but for now, must content ourselves with skimming stones across the pond, i think. ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:53:31 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Ut Ian wrote :- << (saw Ut play at Liverpool Uni. but i cannot for the life of me remember who they were supporting) >> Mark answered :- They seemed to always be supporting someone... come to think of it now, i'm sure it was the Fall, didn't think they were that bad to be honest... ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:54:48 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] its a 'G' thing 3 graeme wrote :- >>What I am getting at ultimately I suppose is that I'm pig sick of this notion that Nirvana only sold a lot of records because other bands did all the work for them or whatever.<< to be honest, graeme, i don't think anyone here is really saying that at all. i'm certainly not. Nirvana sold a lot of records because they were good. what i was striving to say on this thread is that, ultimately, that was just the way things panned out, Nirvana happened to just be there that's all... (to be sung/said in a Bob Dylan accent, please), right place, right time, just like our old friends the Fab Four ( and nobody's saying that Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Eddie Cochran etc, etc, did all the work for them!!!)...somebody got lucky ...but it was an accident!!!! graeme also wrote :- >> The outsider music of a vast continent boiled down to just 5 bands for the sake of consumer convenience was never what punk was about. >> it wasn't what i was on about either, graeme, see above. cheers, ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 00:07:27 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Come Graeme wrote :- Come had greater emotional impact for me, and Thalia Zedek's songwriting skills peaked with the first two Come albums. agreed, 'Off To One Side' is one of my favourite songs of the last dozen or so years. i tend not to bug people generally, but i had to ask Thalia if they were going to play it at the Krazy House (bleurgh, couldn't they think of a decent fuckin' name for that place??)in Liverpool when i saw them there, with Chris Brokaw on guitar. I think they are currently taking a break. Chris Brokaw, the other Come guitarist did some solo gigs and is now playing drums for The New Year (ex Bedhead brothers) and their recent album on Touch & Go is very good - I think you'd like it Ian! ahhhhhh, Bedhead's 'Transaction de Novo', another great lp (and Albini engineering job!), they did a passable version of Joy Division's 'Disorder' (i think..?was it?). thanks for the info on the new thing, i'll look out for it. Chris also played drums on the excellent Codeine debut Frigid Stars. i know, 'Cave In' still wrecks me every time i put it on!! a classic lp, but then all of Codeine's are, what a band. what are they doing now? are they still together or what? cheers, ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 02:11:05 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Melvin Bragg Broke US Punk for the UK If MTV 'broke punk' in the US, then is it also true that punk only really happened in the UK after Sonic Youth starred in a South Bank Show special? ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 02:12:01 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Flipped Flag and Punk Perspective (Again) Mark >>>>I took the discussion to be about a lineage that led to Nirvana In which case you'd have to go back at least as far as Leadbelly... Lets not forget D Bowie! On second thoughts... >>>>WHere do the Feelies, Rain Parade, or Galaxie 500 fit in this jigsaw?? No band should have to fit into a jigsaw, or genre or box or cage or whatever. To me punk should be about exactly this - freedom of expression. This is why punk as a musical genre is nearly meaningless to me... To view punk as a genre is the big mistake and the bullshit media lie! Package the idea into a neatly shrinkwrapped plastic box! Quick quote from Mr Gilbert: "The idea that change is desirable broke out of the little experimental areas into slightly more overground areas because of things like punk. I think that's healthy, but we all know that some people thought punk was a style that was entrenched and something one could pursue as a career. [laughs.]" This quote sums up what I've been banging away at off and on for weeks here: PUNK is NOT a MUSICAL STYLE. And quicker quote from Mr Lewis: "One wants to encourage people to do things for themselves and do it the way they want to do it. If that's subversive, then absolutely." If that's not punk attitude then what is? Wire in the 21st century are really the only band from ol77 that I'd call punk. This is precisely because they do not profess to be punk. No true punk wants to be called a punk, since a punk is a 'worthless person'. Lets face it, no musician wants their music neatly defined by one word. [Wire are also many other things] Mark >>>>A lot of it just seemed retrogressive (eg Black Flag) while others sounded like a refreshing take on 77 punk (eg Husker Du) But this is exactly why this only 5 US hardcore bands line is a load of crap, beyond a personal perspective. How can one band be deemed retrogressive and another one be deemed refreshing for doing essentially the same thing, ie. supposedly making a take on 77 punk? Of course they weren't doing the same thing at all. I think Husker Du were very much like an overloaded high speed psychedelic rockpops combo whereas Black Flag were more a distillation of the bits of heavy metal that weren't boring cliches. As such neither of them had all that much to do with UK punk. Husker Du probably owed more to the Beatles and the Who than 77 punk, and Black Flag would rather have been listening to ZZ Top than the Pistols. Both of them sounded pretty unique to my ears, and both pushed their influences to new sonic extremes (more distortion) and lyrical extremes of alienation (BF) and personal trauma (HD). [old gap tooth woman complains: its all just a bloody racket to me!] As for Flipper being a 'straight punk band' this is pure bullshit. Ted Falconi is doing things to his guitar which I don't think I've ever heard anyone else do. Flipper were a very weird punk band and also had a psychedelic edge. They were a bit slow for a hardcore band. None of these bands fit neatly into pigeon holes, which to me is the only thing that ought to mark out a band as punk - a spirit of individuality! No other band sounds quite like Flipper. Mark >>>>But there were equally large numbers of not-progressive bands who were still good... So it was OK for UK bands to be just good whereas US bands had to also be progressive? >>>>And I don't buy the "punk happened later" line. Where were the Ramones from? This scuppers your original argument that these US bands were just regurgitating UKpunk77, which is what I was trying to do throughout this thread. Both Husker Du & Black Flag sound more like they'd worn out their copies of the first Ramones album than any UK 77 punk bands! Husker Du even trotted out Sheena is a Punk Rocker as an encore. Rollins later did a cover of Ex Lion Tamer of course, before he got past his sell by date. It seems to me from what you're saying that ultimately you're dismissive of Black Flag, Flipper & Butthole Surfers more because they were less melodic than because they were genuinely retrogressive. But what you said to start with was the 'they were viewed in the UK as retrogressive' which isn't really fair because how can you gauge what everyone in the Uk thought? 12 Times You sounds very fuckin' punk to me! etc etc etc Graeme (to the sound of Trout Mask Replica and Lobe - Hibernation) ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #134 *******************************