From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #133 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, April 30 2001 Volume 04 : Number 133 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] Shock Horror! I Don't really like the Pixies! ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore ["stephen graziano" <] [idealcopy] Mogwai Shields Up! [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] [idealcopy] Re: re :-shaky (slight return) [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] Re: Mogwai Shields Up! [Tim Robinson ] [idealcopy] Re: New Order...same time, same place [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] it's a 'G' thing 2 slow [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Je] RE: [idealcopy] offTopic - Thin White Rope ["giluz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:04:09 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Shock Horror! I Don't really like the Pixies! > Erm.....am I the only person on this list who isn't particularly thrilled > by the Pixies? > > Personally I lump them in with Nirvana as bands that are regarded as > classic, get loads of posthumous praise, very influential for loads of > shit bands like Ash, front cover of MOJO, made some classic pop singles > that when very very drunk I can dance to. But thats it. They don't excite > me at all. > > I understand why other people like them but they never enter my > headphones as I get no pleasure from them sonically at all. I > don't listen to the Sex Pistols records for similar reasons. I understand > the significance of what they did and I enjoy reading about them and I > loved The Filth & The Fury but I wouldn't sit down and listen to Never > Mind the Bollocks. Same goes for Nirvana and The Pixies. > > I'm more interested in whats new next week! Actually I agree with you here to some extent. I do like the Pixies, I mean I REALLY like them. But I tend to refrain from listening to them right now because they sound so pathetically dated, unlike 70's or even 80's Wire, for example. Maybe it's because it makes me feel so old - unlike Wire, I was a Pixies fan right from the beginning. I don't think they were that innovative really - they had this impressive knack of incorporating the noisy alternative style into pop songs, which was great. Maybe one of the only bands where you have pop songs with genuine heartbreaking screams on them. But as for their influence and importance - give me a break. So they influenced Nirvana, so what? I still can't believe that some people on this list think of Kurt Cobain as some lost genius who never lived up to his true potential (or maybe even did live up to it). Pixies were one of the last good alternative guitar bands. They were great while they lasted, and are still quite fun to listen to even now. Not much more than that, I'm afraid. A Pixies reunion doesn't hold for me much more than pure clean fun (which isn't a bad thing in itself). As for the Breeders - I didn't like this sibling shit from the start, always considered it as a gimmick (I remember Kim Deal talking about it in one of the Pixies interviews and thinking this is just one of those weird stoned stuff they always say in interviews - turned out I was wrong), even though I did like their first album. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:32:57 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] re :-shaky (slight return) re :-shaky (slight return) sorry to be so pedantic paul... but shouldn't it be shakey, with an e? shakey on an e would be interesting though... ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 07:29:15 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore Anyone remember the Sex Pistols on the Merv Griffin Show? Eric in Toronto - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of PaulRabjohn@aol.com Sent: April 28, 2001 5:01 PM To: sjgraziano@hotmail.com; crackedmachine@yahoo.co.uk; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore In a message dated 28/04/01 18:31:33 GMT Daylight Time, sjgraziano@hotmail.com writes: > Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets, Buttholes, Husker Du, even > the Replacements forged this endless touring strategy until the majors > started to notice and sign these bands //////// agree with the basic point here but i thought a big factor in it all was MTV. the theory being that punk finally "happened" in the US when there was a national medium to get it across to a nationwide base. i've heard it explained that way a few times ; would US listers agree? p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:37:10 -0400 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: shaky (slight return) >the snakes. the disc comes with a nice gatefold inner , with a live >action shot of rob at the mic. you get a band line up ; on guitar >was nick garvey of the motors and the bassist was rob smith. Not the Fat Bob of The Cure, or was it him?!!! Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 09:29:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hindman Subject: [idealcopy] OT - Eyeballs on the Horizon! Copying Idealists~ This is mainly a note for any listees in the Central California area... Through a series of phone calls, I've managed to convince a local theater owner to book the Residents to play in Santa Cruz, CA on May 26th! More details will follow, but it should be awesome! I only found about it last night and if any local ICers wouold like more details, please write to me off line. *Joseph - I would have emailed you separately, but stupidly didn't save your address. Oops RJH ===== - ----------------------------------------------------------- "Suffering is our experience of the distance between what we are and who we wish to become. - -Robert Fripp - ----------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 13:59:59 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore MTV was launched in 1981, way before any of those groups broke through. And it could be argued that MTV hurt the underground, since it focused on flashy, dancy, "haircut" type bands that overran the "rock discos". I'm sure that the indie labels like Touch & Go, Subterranean, Twin Tone, Neutral, et. al. spent nary a dime on expensive rock videos, which let's face it, were glorified advertising, whereas once again you had the majors flushing beaucoups buck into the toilet by spending entire indie album budgets for promo videos of all their signings. It could also be argued that MTV hurt the indie scene also, because it excacerbated the prevelent American tendency to watch TV rather than read, which was where lots more of the interesting underground got its exposure, - the monthly press (NY Rocker, Slash, Creem, Rock Scene, Trouser Press, OP, later Option, Spin, and AP) and zine culture. For the longest time, indie/import/underground music was consigned to 2 hours a weeks, late at night on the 120 minutes ghetto (and whatever they called it when Peter Zaremba hosted). - Steve. G >From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com >To: sjgraziano@hotmail.com, crackedmachine@yahoo.co.uk, idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore >Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:00:48 EDT > >In a message dated 28/04/01 18:31:33 GMT Daylight Time, >sjgraziano@hotmail.com writes: > > > > Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets, Buttholes, Husker Du, even > > the Replacements forged this endless touring strategy until the majors > > started to notice and sign these bands > >//////// agree with the basic point here but i thought a big factor in it >all >was MTV. the theory being that punk finally "happened" in the US when there >was a national medium to get it across to a nationwide base. i've heard it >explained that way a few times ; would US listers agree? p _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:29:05 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Mogwai Shields Up! Tim >>>>Mogwai would be a bit too 'Indie-schmindie-NME-faves' for your liking What the eNMEy thinks of a band has absolutely no bearing whatsoever my opinion of them! I first heard Mogwai on the radio courtesy of a John Peel session, and made up my own mind about them. The eNMEy has been known to write about good bands amongst all the tedious corporate dross. The only copy of it I've seen all year had a small interview with Matmos who are one of those rare groups who deserve the amount of hype they've had. Their 'California Rhinoplasty' EP (Matador) is very good indeed. Tim on Mogwai remix >>>>This is something close to the white-out version of You Made Me Realise MBV did on their last tour and is certainly one of the best things Kevin Sheilds has done in recent years. What else has he done (for public ears) apart from the Wire cover and giving those chancer hippy killer twerps Primal Scream an undeserved ounce of kudos? Just seen you mentioned a Hurricane remix... what's that? That Shields remix is far and away the best thing Mogwai have done - but which speed do you prefer it at? Is that the white noise bagpipes they're playing? I like Mogwai but they are a little overrated. Played the first couple of albums quite a lot but that Come on die young album was a bit disappointing (not bad at all but not really up to the earlier things - perhaps they thought so too as the EP that followed sounded just like Ten Rapid all over again!). I think I liked them better earlier on when they built their sets up to a crescendo rather than doing it for every song, although they were very good and noisy when they got wound up by rave hecklers at Sankeys Soap. Guest vocalists for the new album made me think 'avoid'. Did you go to their recent Manchester gig? I was just curious as to who the 'special guests' were? If you like the Mogwai Surgeon mix then I'd recommend his 12" split on Fat Cat with Speedranch^Jansky Noise (under his own name Anthony Childs). The mu-ziq Mogwai mix is quite good too and in the circular way these things tend to happen, he's just put out the Speedranch / Venetian Snares album 'Making Orange Things' which I haven't heard yet but which I suspect might be more fun than the new Mogwai one... Fennesz should also be heard by all who like the noise side of MBV or that Surgeon mix! And if Mark bumped into him he might get an answer to his question, "What is the point of live laptops?" Could it have anything to do with 'progression'? Don't Start Me Off! Graeme (Thin White Rope 'In The Spanish Cave' rotating at 33) ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:33:20 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Pixie Noise Paul Rabjohn: >>>>i'm always amazed how frank black's solo career slipped so effortlessly into mediocrity the moment he left the pixies , all the stories were that he ran the band as a dictatorship so you'd think maybe a solo career would pan out fine? but it didn't ever achieve much lift-off , did it. Well he lost Kim's pop backing vocals and David Lovering's piledriving drums for a start. Joey Santiago was still around for some songs on the first two records which he did with former Magic Band member Eric Drew Feldman, and I think he began to slip after Teenager of the Year when Feldman departed. He was trying to be a more classically orientated songwriter rather than make a big joyous noise, and whilst Pixies were always pop, his later stuff began to bland out a bit (not to Kitchens of Distinction or Prefab Sprout levels of blandness, granted). Basically he made the mistake of thinking about what he was doing too much and maybe took his own press too seriously? He started to do Lou Reed impressions occasionally which was a bit disappointing. He probably gets more people at his gigs than Wire would on a UK tour... but I hardly think it's surprising he's less popular solo than Pixies because the evidence is there on the records: they aren't as good as Pixies! Unlike Wire solo, or even Breeders, there is no raison d'etre beyond Charles being sick of playing with Kim Deal and David Lovering. Paul Pietro >>>>Their "classic pop singles" - like "Here comes your man" for example - hold no interest for me at all. I tend to favor songs like "Broken Face", "Break My Body", "Gouge Away" and "Crackity Jones". I'd agree there that those were some of their best (plus Bone Machine, Tame, Wave of Mutilation, Planet of Sound, Debaser, Dead, Rock Music, etc, etc) but I also liked the more poppy songs. Its quite funny that they realised too late that the harder hitting Debaser should've been the single from Doolittle. Nirvana made the same mistake with Nevermind - Territorial Pissings and Drain You should've been singles! Tim >>>>Personally I lump them in with Nirvana as bands that are regarded as classic, get loads of posthumous praise, very influential for loads of shit bands like Ash, front cover of MOJO, made some classic pop singles that when very very drunk I can dance to. But thats it. They don't excite me at all. Pixies and Nirvana both got lots of praise while they were in existance. Wire were also very influential on shit bands (Elastica, Menswear). The front cover of MOJO is an irrelevance, just like the eNMEy and teenyboppers like Ash. Lock up your hats! Graeme (The Jesus Lizard 'Goat' on the turntable, sounding as exciting as it ever did, and recorded perfectly by Albini) ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 19:34:19 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Not Much Of An Expert on US Hardcore / Punk >>>>I think part of the problem was that the 80s US punk was seen as somewhat retrogressive in the UK By some people perhaps it was seen that way. To others it wasn't. Most people in the UK weren't much interested. Yeah, the Smiths and Prefab Sprout were really pushing music to new frontiers at the time weren't they? As someone living in the UK in the eighties, US punk (from Husker Du to Pixies to Flipper to Minor Threat to Didjits to Dead Kennedys to... etc etc) was certainly the most interesting thing going on. By the mid eighties in the UK we had Wire, Loop, WalkingSeeds and the Fall who were really making music which was just as exciting, but there were way more interesting groups coming over from the States. Ok so I liked New Order and Cocteau Twins and Spaceman 3 and The Three Johns and That Petrol Emotion and lots of others but the US stuff was just more viscerally exciting and deranged! So who were all these progressive UK bands? There were just as many in the US, probably many more. Not just five. >>>>we'd been through punk in 77 and that had degenerated into crap like Oi bands etc. It had also bred lots of interesting bands... and the idea had escaped and wasn't about to pinned down to a genre! Do it yourself, do whatever you like. Oi bands were just one tiny aspect, and at least they were funny. Weren't Sham 69 championed as the future of punk for about 5 minutes by Sniffing Glue? I'd hardly call '154' degeneration! And they also had punk in the States. Cue some old US rocker in leopard print pants, "We'd been through punk in the late sixties with Iggy!" But actually I think that it took a lot longer for the punk virus to infiltrate the States with it being a bigger continent, and once it was out it wasn't so easy to dilute. There were far more diverse bands and it wasn't such a media hyped phenomenon as the Uk class of 77. Stephen summed this up well. >>>>I remember hearing Husker Du's Makes no sense at all on Peel one night and it was a revelation - I'd only previously heard Land Speed Record, so had discounted them as 100,000mph thrash... So what did you think of 12XU? It is a lot faster than Data Control, after all. I heard Makes No Sense on Peel and loved it but my first impression of the Flip Your Wig LP was just that it was a load of mouldy old rock dough... I soon realised I was totally wrong! New Day Rising and Zen Arcade were way better though! Also the Husker Du singles Amusement and In A Free Land predated Landspeed Record and were as poppy as anything they did! >>>>They played over here with H Rollins as a skinhead which got misinterpreted. They had the song White Minority remember? The snotty sarcasm of that song was pretty apparent. That song was also recorded prior to Rollins' involvement for what it's worth. >>>>One word. Skrewdriver. You talk about musical progression, yet still judge a band by the singer's haircut???? Yo, ho, ho! I don't think I've ever heard Skrewdriver, but their politics have given them a notoriety which Black Flag earned with their music. Punks at the UK gigs were also alienated by Black Flag playing tapes of early ZZ Top before they came on. There's got to be a way to get out! Graeme (Playing Denison Kimball Trio 'Walls in the City') ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:29:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Wireviews update Wireviews has just received its May update, including the final installment of the Kevin Eden interview: http://welcome.to/wireviews The VMU Web site has also had minor updates to the news and all of the MP3 links: http://listen.to/veer Best Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://listen.to/veer SVA: http://welcome.to/snub - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:35:09 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: re :-shaky (slight return) In a message dated 29/04/01 11:33:09 GMT Daylight Time, iansjackson@hotmail.com writes: > sorry to be so pedantic paul... > but shouldn't it be shakey, with an e? > shakey on an e would be interesting though... > > ian.s.j. > ///// well i'm not so sure. i think shaky looks better. if you've ever seen that film of him attacking richard madeley then you might conclude he had a taste for something stronger than half a lager :-) p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 21:22:34 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore Graeme, << apart from whether or not you had enough interest to go and seek them out. Butthole Surfers were on Blast First so their records should have been as easy to find as those of Big Black, Sonic Youth & Dinosaur Jr.>> I always make a point of seeking out music I think might interest me.... Flipper just sounded like a bad punk band, several years too late. Buttholes were certainly different - I had some friends in the US I used to stay with (around 87-88), who loved the band and played them all the time - but I never 'got' them. Whereas one play of 'Freak Scene' or 'Makes no sense at all' and I'm hooked. I guess I'm just further over on the melodic scale.... >>Both these bands were more original and extreme than Dinosaur Jr << That's as maybe. But sometimes original and extreme are not enough for me... >>who were somewhat pre-empted by Neil Young's 'Sedan Delivery'...<< It is permitted to like music that refers to other music ;-) >>What I am getting at ultimately I suppose is that I'm pig sick of this notion that Nirvana only sold a lot of records because other bands did all the work for them or whatever.<< There was clearly a head of steam for American alt-rock during the late '80s being built up, and it was inevitable this would lead to a breakthrough. The good thing was that the breakthrough band was a good 'un, and one which blindsided the music biz. >> Anyway, I'm getting into my time machine now and I'm going to go back and stop Black Francis' parents meeting, and if when I get back my copy of 'Nevermind' no longer exists << Don't forget your flabby wings....just leave your gun behind. We can't have you shooting stupid sergeants. Who knows who you might erase! >> I've never heard a Meat Puppets album that sounded anything like 'pretty straight US punk'. Have you actually heard them Mark??? Which other pretty straight US punk band sounded anything like the Meat Puppets?????<< Actually it was unfortunate that they got lumped in. Realised that when I sent the email. I just replied to a list of bands that were cited as somehow influential, honest guv. And yes, I have at least one of their albums, and yes, they do sound pretty unique. >> Lets face it, US punk was never 'pretty straight' despite what you may have heard about that aberration 'straight edge'.<< It just seemed somehow unoriginal and behind the times, and not as good as 77 UK punk - which moved on very quickly. US punk seemed to be quite content to chunder away to itself, not moving forward - until the aforesaid HDu/DJr/Pixies et al did something original. Again, this is a remembered opinion of a 15-years-ago version of me! But listening to Black Flag doesn't make me change my opinion... >>The Replacements - now there's a band who knew how to get more boring with every record! And I have them all, although it's only the first 3 that I can actually listen to anymore.<< Whereas All Shook Down is my favourite of their albums! >> The outsider music of a vast continent boiled down to just 5 bands for the sake of consumer convenience was never what punk was about. >> I took the discussion to be about a lineage that led to Nirvana - certainly not all the "outsider music" of the US of A....which is a many-splendoured, multi-layered thingy that spans many styles, genres etc. WHere do the Feelies, Rain Parade, or Galaxie 500 fit in this jigsaw?? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 02:39:16 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Mogwai Shields Up! Graeme Rowland wrote: The eNMEy has been known to write about good bands amongst all the tedious corporate dross. The only copy of it I've seen all year had a small interview with Matmos Don't start me off about the NME, those wretched, witless, Champagne vomiting, corporate cock sucking bastards. Bring back the New Morrisey Express all is forgiven. If the staff of the NME spent a bit less time in the toilet snorting lines of coke with the marketing department of Sony they might realise there is life beyond Destinys Child and Starsailor. What else has he done (for public ears) apart from the Wire cover and giving those chancer hippy killer twerps Primal Scream an undeserved ounce of kudos? Just seen you mentioned a Hurricane remix... what's that? Hurricane #1. A stunningly awful band fronted by Andy Bell from Ride, now defunct as Andy Bell has joined The Eagles or someone like that. Doubt even Sheilds could polish that particular turd. Has anyone else heard it? Kev has done a few other things though. There was a cover of 'We Have All The Time in the World' which is basically Kevin and Belinda cooing over a fairly straight MIDI-id up version of the song (possibly a little dig at Island records) Theres a few other remixes....a brilliant one of Autumn Sweater by Yo La Tengo, an OK one for the Pastels. He also did some playing/production on the last J Mascis LP (although you can't really here him until the last ear-splitting track 'More Light'). He plays on one of the EAR albums (with Sonic Boom and Kevin Martin) although again, you'd struggle to find him in there..... Theres also a piece called '2' done for a contemporary ballet thing which I havent heard yet. That Shields remix is far and away the best thing Mogwai have done - but which speed do you prefer it at? Alas its on CD. I'm saving up for a Beekeeping twin-tub CD player with Varispeed and reverse thrust, then I'll tell yer! Is it better faster or slower then? Is that the white noise bagpipes they're playing? I really want to believe that is true, but I suspect its just a happy co-incidence. think I liked them better earlier on when they built their sets up to a crescendo rather than doing it for every song, although they were very good and noisy when they got wound up by rave hecklers at Sankeys Soap. Best one of their I saw was v.early on at the Roadhouse, when Brendan O' Hare was still with them, banging a drum on the floor next to Stuart. The white-noise thing works really well when you're in a tiny venue, eye to eye with the band Guest vocalists for the new album made me think 'avoid'. Gruff from Super Furry Animals is on it, don't know who else. I love SFA! If you like the Mogwai Surgeon mix then I'd recommend his 12" split on Fat Cat with Speedranch^Jansky Noise (under his own name Anthony Childs). I have a compilation of those split 12"s on a CD somewhere, I'll dig it out sometime Fennesz should also be heard by all who like the noise side of MBV or that Surgeon mix! And if Mark bumped into him he might get an answer to his question, "What is the point of live laptops?" Could it have anything to do with 'progression'? In Mojo this month, Eno says Computers are crap for music because the interface is crap. True, but unlike James and U2 I can't afford to hire Eno to produce my latest recordings so I'm stuck with my PC.. (Thin White Rope 'In The Spanish Cave' rotating at 33) Spring Heel Jack - 'Oddities' is girating on my seedy rom (one of the few Drum & Bass/Electronica acts to namecheck LaMonte Young and get a commsion from Radio 3)...highlight is track 1 entitled 'Root' and may or may not be a Thurston Moore collaboration....he is credited but not for any specific track. Anyone know if its this one? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 21:47:45 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: New Order...same time, same place Ian, << thanks for filling in the details with regard to the first 3 New Order gigs. we seem to have been at the same places at the same time quite a bit!<< Well we got around....Manchester, Liverpool - distance no object! >> glad i was some help with the 2nd gig, the set list could well have been Dreams Never End, Truth, Denial, Senses, I.C.B., and maybe In A Lonely Place or Ceremony but i can't really be sure at all.<< Couldn't have been Denial, Senses, or I.C.B as these were post-Gillian compositions from 1981. There were only 7 NO songs in existence at the time of the first 3 gigs...and they were quite different to the recorded versions - - particularly with regard to who was doing the singing.... >> it could well have been the same as Blackpool the night after.<< I'd bet money on it! >> wasn't he smack-head though, or just a boozer? this may have had something to with the decline in quality of his work.<< Smack, coke, booze, dope, speed - you name it. My personal theory is that technology caught up with him. New studio devices (more advanced digital delays, reverbs etc) meant he didn't have to work so hard to get his trademark sound. >>actually, i really like Movement ( i know the band hate it), but i know what you're saying, i suppose it could have been way better. i tend to accept it as it is, but come to think of it, Movement could have done with the same production values as 'Cries & Whispers' and 'Mesh' (two of my faves), hadn't considered that before and that thought makes me pretty sick now to be honest.<< Anything on single was better. (eg Procession, Ceremony, Lonely Place)...Quite how he fucked up Dreams Never End (played at every gig, and the most fully realised song at the time) is beyond me. Even the slightly flat Peel version is way better. I'm totally with you on Mesh and C&W... which were totally rewritten before they were recorded. Neither had Barney singing originally (Mesh was Hook, C&W was Hook verse, Morris chorus) >>agree about Magazine's 'Magic, Murder & the Weather' also, that lp was a major disappointment, maybe only two or three decent songs combined with a horribly muddy mix, i sold my copy a few years later.<< I'd quite happily erase it from Magazine's oeuvre in its entirety... Cheers, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 21:53:41 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] it's a 'G' thing 2 slow Ian, << (saw Ut play at Liverpool Uni. but i cannot for the life of me remember who they were supporting) >> They seemed to always be supporting someone (bit like Flock of Seagulls!!!!). I saw them in Birmingham supporting the Au Pairs in about 1981, and again somewhere else. Utter rubbish. Best part was watching them try to tune up their guitars - a performance that lasted several minutes - until they snapped their strings. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:17:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 28/04/01 18:31:33 GMT Daylight Time, > sjgraziano@hotmail.com writes: > > > Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets, Buttholes, Husker Du, even > > the Replacements forged this endless touring strategy until the majors > > started to notice and sign these bands > > //////// agree with the basic point here but i thought a big factor in it all > was MTV. the theory being that punk finally "happened" in the US when there > was a national medium to get it across to a nationwide base. i've heard it > explained that way a few times ; would US listers agree? p Depends what you mean by "punk" and what you mean by "happened." If you mean: music that could trace its antecedents back through several steps of removal to something punk-like; and: sold lots of records and got big airplay - then yeah, it did. Nirvana sold really well, and then a whole load of much worse bands way more influenced by Led Zeppelin & Black Sabbath sold even more (Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, the execrable Stone Temple Pilots), which led to a brief moment of "alternative" rock popularity - which almost immediately flamed out into ever-lamer "grunge," bland imitations of early R.E.M. (Gin Blossoms etc.), and - inexplicably - a whole horde of Grateful Dead wannabes, and finally into the truly hideous bad idea of taking the worst of metal, the worst of "funk" (not George Clinton or James Brown but the awful Red Hot Chili Peppers), and the worst of rap into the crap called variously "new metal" or the all-too-appropriately asshole-minded monicker "pimp rock." But if you mean something like, what allowed the spread of punk-influenced music - and here "punk" means something more like finding a way to make music that wasn't dictated by blowdried, ponytailed, pastel-wearing (this *was* the '80s - the _Miami Vice_ years, for those who've mercifully forgotten) record company execs and the walking dead writing for _Rolling Tombstone_...well, no, MTV had nothing to do with it. The bands mentioned above - Black Flag, Husker Du, Replacements, Meat Puppets, R.E.M., Minutemen, Sonic Youth...and the mighty Mission of Burma and Pere Ubu - benefitted not at all from MTV until well after they'd either reached as big an audience as they were ever going to, or after they'd peaked musically. BTW, it's been very interesting for this U.S. lister to read the take of this primarily British list on U.S. music! - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::a squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous...got me? __Captain Beefheart__ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:05:39 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] offTopic - Thin White Rope > (Thin White Rope 'In The Spanish Cave' rotating at 33) Fucking unbelievable: I just had a listen to a Thin White Rope LP a couple of days ago, after years I didn't give them any thought. I forgot what it's called, I think it was their first (It has Disney Girl on it). [well - it was a Saturday - I rummaged through my forgotten records collection and dug up some treasures, but an hour later my turntable broke down. I think turntables don't like me] giluz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #133 *******************************