From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #132 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, April 29 2001 Volume 04 : Number 132 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re: death to the pixies ["david mack" ] RE: [idealcopy] [OT] death to the pixies [Paul Pietromonaco ] [idealcopy] nice pop lar ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] j'accuse ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] eurotrash cometh ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] New Order...same time, same place ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] off topic - mercy ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] que pasa? ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] maybe calls for reflection for a second... ["ian jackson" ] Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] Re: eurotrash cometh [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] shaky (slight return) [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore [HeySean@aol.com] [idealcopy] the year that punk broke... ["ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: death to the pixies i for one was rocked by the pixies for a time but do not find myself often needing to go back to that time i didn't *get* nirvana at the time but came late to the dance and have not revisited that front in a while the first pretenders album was in constant rotation for a year at a time as was rem's murmur none of these 'influential' records makes it back for regular rotation john fahey does miles davis does the bleedin' rolling stones do and the stooges do paul said: >That's an interesting perspective. From my point of view, the Pixies were a noise band who experimented with pop music structure and, at their best, came up with something new. i could see where that interpretation would come from were it not for the succeeding acts (bf and the popes, breeders, amps) unless one takes the view that joey santiago was the actual spirit of the pixies, the results of the pixies were more straight pop/rock than the pixies themselves i think the chaos of the pixies' music was due to the chaos of their lives - not by some artistic design nothing is quite so predictable as a catholics record nowadays hmmm - haven't listened to elvis costello for a while - wonder what that means (probably nothing) celebrate the future embrace the present respect the past maxi-on (tm) too random? sorta like too much garlic - a concept which escapes me ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 08:08:18 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE: [idealcopy] [OT] death to the pixies >i could see where that interpretation would come from >were it not for the succeeding acts (bf and the popes, >breeders, amps) unless one takes the view that joey santiago >was the actual spirit of the pixies, Not a bad assumption, in my book. His guitar was quite defining. Honestly, I think the Pixies were a band who were more than the sum of their members. You can't get the Pixies sound individually because it took all four members to generate that sound. Also, don't forget that Black Francis changed his name to Frank Black for a reason. In the original interviews given at the time, Charles (his real name) said (paraphrasing) that he wasn't interested in Pixies music anymore, hence the name change. As an example of this change in thinking: Frank Black never screams. Blank Francis always did. >the results of the pixies were more straight pop/rock >than the pixies themselves >i think the chaos of the pixies' music was due to the >chaos of their lives - not by some artistic design Here we disagree (in a friendly way, mind you (^_^)). To my ears, there was a defining sound that stayed consistent throughout their career. Black Francis and Joey Santiago said it best in their original advertisement for a bass player: Husker Du meets Peter, Paul & Mary. If anything, they all decided that they didn't want to sound like that anymore. Quite the pity. >nothing is quite so predictable as a catholics record nowadays That's for sure. (^_^) However, I must admit I did enjoy Frank's contribution to the Powerpuff Girls soundtrack. It still proves that if you engage his imagination, he can write a good song. The other problem with Catholics records might be due to his recording methods. Frank no longer multitracks in the studio - everything is recorded live to 2 track. No overdubs, all live. This can be liberating at first, but it can also be restrictive. You get so paranoid about "blowing the take" that you hold back a little musically. I know that Pistolero and Dog In The Sand were recorded this way. I actually thought that Pistolero had germs of good ideas - but that the production lost them. Basically, his records sound like demos now. On the other hand, Breeders records were always well produced - Kim must be a stickler for things like that. (Heck, even Kelley's solo project - the Kelley Deal 6000 - is pretty well recorded. How many on this list have heard her two albums?) Okay the Amps weren't particularly well recorded - but Kim thought she was Guided by Voices - it happens to everyone once. (^_^) Cheers, Paul P.S. Did anyone ever see the video for one of the last Breeders singles, Shocker In Glomtown (sp?). That's a cover of a Guided by Voices song, and GbV actually appears in the video, watching the Breeders perform in a garage. Then, they walk away in disgust. (^_^) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 11:45:54 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (Ain't No) Planet of Sound? In a message dated 28/04/01 00:22:05 GMT Daylight Time, crackedmachine@yahoo.co.uk writes: > The 8 songs on 'Come On Pilgrim' were cut from a tape > Pixies sent to Ivo which also included early takes of > Dig For Fire (first song they wrote or so I read > somewhere), Here Comes Your Man, Subacultcha, Dig For > Fire, Rock A My Soul (which appeared on a 7" freebie > with Sounds weakly), Break My Body and one other > song... > > It's been bugging me for years - does anyone know what > the other song was? My guess is that it might have > been 'Oh My Golly!' as Black Francis abandoned Spanish > lyrics later on as his Puerto Rican stint faded from > memory (Yardbirds covers not withstanding) so I'd > guess that this was one of the earliest 'Surfer Rosa' > songs. > > ////// that sounds single had 2 pixies tracks , Rock a my soul and an early > version of down to the well (very different from the version on bossanova). > so i guess that's the other track you're wondering about. there was also a > . following recent mails i dragged out my one kitchens of distinction lp out from where i left it after one play and gave it another spin (its the one with drive too fast on , forget the title). what a dull piece of generic indie. anyone care to offer me a swop for it , mint condition now played almost twice? i think i can probably live without it. good to hear the breeders are back in action , thought the twins had fallen out terminally. i thought the amps cd was very dull and very lo-fi whereas the 2 breeders albums had some great moments. i'm always amazed how frank black's solo career slipped so effortlessly into mediocrity the moment he left the pixies , all the stories were that he ran the band as a dictatorship so you'd think maybe a solo career would pan out fine? but it didn't ever achieve much lift-off , did it. p ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 12:17:18 -0400 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] Replacements (was Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore) Graeme wrote: >The Replacements - now there's a band who knew how to >get more boring with every record! And I have them >all, although it's only the first 3 that I can >actually listen to anymore. I only heard one album - "Tim". Was so bad that I am just afraid to check the others. Anything by Paul Westerberg that went my way was even worse (the song on "Singles" soundtrack, iirc? well, the whole ST just sucked, that's for sure) Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:26:36 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore >From: Graeme Rowland >> >If Flipper and Butthole Surfers were 'pretty straight >US punk' then who was making the pretty weird US punk? > > Graeme, you are spot on about this. The point exactly. What made bands like Flipper and the Buttholes, and Dead Kennedy's, and Contortions, and Raybeats, and all the other "interesting" US punk/postpunk was that they were different from the standard cookie cutter "class of 77 UK or US" model and weren't afraid to mine the vein of there own particular vision for however long it took. In the US, the punk ethos always focused more on artistic dissatisfaction w/ the state of affairs - esp in regards to what was offered up as mass culture - rather than any overt political sensibility. In the UK, the "punk movement" could become national news and generate top of the chart hits and even become an established "alternative" career. But there was no hope of this in the US. Bands knew that if they wanted to play and sound this particular way, they were consigning themselves to years of living in the van and travelling scene to scene, utilizing the truly (at the time) underground network of zines, little listened university radio stations, 100 capacity clubs, and selling their records out of the van and maybe to the one or two stores in town that would sell indie product. Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets, Buttholes, Husker Du, even the Replacements forged this endless touring strategy until the majors started to notice and sign these bands. And it can be argued that in no case did signing to a major help any of these bands expand their vision artistically, even if they got (marginally) more commercial exposure, till much later on in the decade. - Steve. G _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:39:44 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] That Burma Mannequin Ubu Emotion I don't think I ever heard TPE cover Mannequin, but I do remember hearing them do Pere Ubu - Non Alignment Pact Neil Young - Cinnamon Girl Buzzcocks - Nothing Left Stooges - TV Eye I think this might have been the first time I heard the Pere Ubu and Neil Young songs, but I'm not sure. They never actually recorded their Mannequin cover did they? Another band who covered Stooges and Pere Ubu and who sound like they were probably quite likely influenced by Chairs Missing Wire were the excellent Boston group Mission Of Burma. They were one of those rare bands who seemed to get better with every record and then stopped (the best one being their posthumous live album The Horrible Truth About Burma). Mission of Burma's cover of Pere Ubu's Heart of Darkness is pretty impressive (or is it just more of that 'pretty straight US hardcore'?). I prefer it to the original, unlike all the TPE covers. Anyway Rykodisc recently reissued all their albums on CD and you can find out more about that here http://www.rykodisc.com Lock up your hats! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:59:45 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] it's a 'G' thing paul wrote :- ////// i really love nirvana , as long as it wasn't too thrash i liked most of those bands. though not pearl jam , for some reason eddie vedder always makes me think of ian gillan.... yeah, when i said the 'whole' grunge thing, Pearl Jam and Soundgarden just didn't connect with me at all. one band i left out were Fugazi who i've seen a couple of times. don't rate all their lp's, but as a live band... ian. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:12:26 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] nice pop lar Paul, Mark, Chris & Tim discussed :- > << Lightning Seeds. No. No. No. > > Not edgy? Well OK. But excellent indie pop to be played loud. > >> > > Exactly. Nice indie. Made by a stalwart of Nice New Wave. > > Nice. ////////////and then you progress onto nice pop. a perfect career plan for the aspiring young scouse punk rocker. boy he must have made some cash. i got the distinct feeling with this thread that, as i'm the token 'liverpool' person on the list and as i've previously expressed my admiration for Big In Japan and the Original Mirrors, you guys were waiting for me to defend the Lightning Seeds. i can't, they were shite from day one. Broudie should have stuck to producing as far as i'm concerned, he was on a roll there. laughin'..., ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:28:58 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] j'accuse graeme wrote :- Nah, but I liked them better than the Undertones - more menace and O'Gormann's Beefheart licks plus vastly increased drum power! OK, so they never topped Teenage Kicks, but Manic Pop Thrill is way better than any Undertones album! And Scumsurfin' was a great song later on. i think this is a deliberate wind-up to flush us 'late 30-somethings' into a huge fury!!!! no, no, no, no, no, graeme, if you're serious, try listening to' Hypnotised', 'Positive Touch' or even the 'Sin Of Pride' lp to see how wrong you are!!!!!!! all great lp's. Getting their very poppy Cellophane single blacklisted by the BBC for commenting on the ongoing N Ireland conflicts ("I can only find the murder machine") was a bit more subversive than anything Depeche Mode managed in the eighties. i think the Robinson-baiting has gone far enough now m'laddo!! I also bought every Three Johns album and still love Death Of The European which I recall being in Peel's Festive 50 the same year as TPE's arguably finest moment V2. good,good,good,good,good,good, double-double good... on one, ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:34:36 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] eurotrash cometh Paul, Graeme, so sadly i could still probably sing along with all of "euroman" if forced. not sure i'd want to though , not exactly a classic. i agree entirely paul, which was part of the reason for asking graeme to de-construct the lp. some of it worked, most of it not. i went to see Burnel's solo tour at Erics/Bradys in Liverpool, met him, got the autograph on a copy of 'Strangled'... the full hero-worship bit. the support band on the tour by the way, who were called Rapid Eye Movement(!!!!!), had John Ellis on guitar ( ex-Vibrators and some others i can't think of) who i believe has been with the Stranglers for some time now, and Carey Fortune from the Drones (these two played in Burnel's backing band as well). .and you may be right graeme that there were alien forces at work on the meninblack album. i mean it was so bad that you lost the will to live well before the end of side 2. agreed, this was the start of the end with the Stranglers for me, although i liked some of the singles afterwards, including for instance, 'Thrown Away' and 'Bear Cage', even 'Skin Deep' much later on!!!!! i don't actually think i own a stranglers album. but if i had to buy one it would definitely be "black and white" , by far their peak. for me it's a toss up between 'Rattus...' and 'B & W' for best lp, 'No More Heroes' and 'The Raven' have their great moments but the other two are great all the way through. ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:43:37 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] New Order...same time, same place mark, thanks for filling in the details with regard to the first 3 New Order gigs. we seem to have been at the same places at the same time quite a bit! glad i was some help with the 2nd gig, the set list could well have been Dreams Never End, Truth, Denial, Senses, I.C.B., and maybe In A Lonely Place or Ceremony but i can't really be sure at all. it could well have been the same as Blackpool the night after. there was five or six of us leaning on the barrier at the front of the stage, i was right in front of Bernie, and there was maybe a dozen more people in the club at most. what a night. i got there early and heard Hooky playing Love Will Tear Us Apart at the soundcheck, which was a strange feeling. later on, i asked him to sign the back of my membership card, he agreed but said, 'What are you going to do with that then ?'! my reply was, 'Well, i'm keeping hold of it, it's my membership card...' not exactly Oscar Wilde, but there you go. Hannet really fucked up with Movement. His productions after 1980 went horribly downhill (see also Magic Murder and the Weather). There's nothing much good after ACR's Flight 12in IMO. wasn't he smack-head though, or just a boozer? this may have had something to with the decline in quality of his work. actually, i really like Movement ( i know the band hate it), but i know what you're saying, i suppose it could have been way better. i tend to accept it as it is, but come to think of it, Movement could have done with the same production values as 'Cries & Whispers' and 'Mesh' (two of my faves), hadn't considered that before and that thought makes me pretty sick now to be honest. agree about Magazine's 'Magic, Murder & the Weather' also, that lp was a major disappointment, maybe only two or three decent songs combined with a horribly muddy mix, i sold my copy a few years later. ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:17:16 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] it's a 'G' thing 2 slow graeme wrote :- Throwing Muses were better known than Pixies in the UK initially, but Peel only played one song of theirs that wasn't sung by Tanya Donelly as I recall, because Kristin Hersh's voice spooked him out! yeah, me too!! i really liked them early on, they were just as good as the Pixies at that International gig. Later on Peel played the whole of 'Trompe Le Monde' in the week prior to its release, interspersed with a long Black Francis phone interview. i remember hearing this one, with 'Charles' saying he'd had a couple of iced coffees before the interview and as a consequence was speeding his brains out!! Like the US hardcore thing, No Wave, Swans, Live Skull, Pussy Galore, Ut, Band of Susans, Butthole Surfers, BALL, Thin White Rope, Brainiac, Slint, Rodan, Nomeansno, Killdozer, Jesus Lizard, Steelpole Bathtub, Hammerhead, Slug, Blind Idiot God, Fugazi, etc, etc for me it was, Fugazi, Tad, Mudhoney, Killdozer, Jesus Lizard, Firehose, (saw Ut play at Liverpool Uni. but i cannot for the life of me remember who they were supporting) i heard the other bands you mention near the end, but thought they were a bit 2nd division compared to the first lot. i think the post-Slint and Rodan family tree has been one of the most interesting strands of post-rock, whatever you want to call it. the Buttholes i always thought were great, but i never bothered really buying anything for some reason. Come better than Live Skull or Uzi??? discuss. then of course there was Bitch Magnet/Seam, Superchunk, and the astounding Codeine, all far superior to er, Slug or Blind Idiot God...Graeme? came late to Pussy Galore and Slint for some reason but really love all that shit now. Nirvana were just fucking brilliant, despite the all the success/shite that came with it. re :- 'So and slow it goes', i had the exact same feelings as you at first, but it got to me in the end. now i still need to get hold of the 12" for the remixes!! abientot, ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:25:04 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Blank Frack paul rabjohn wrote:- i'm always amazed how frank black's solo career slipped so effortlessly into mediocrity the moment he left the pixies the first lp had some good songs, 'Czar', 'Los Angeles', the 'Hang On to Your Ego' cover but it was down fast after that. ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:25:59 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] off topic - mercy Tim wrote :- p.s,. Theres a new Depeche Mode LP out next isn;t there? naughty... now you ARE asking for it aren't you?!?! ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:26:56 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] que pasa? david wrote:- maze - greatest hits ah, 'Joy and Pain' i remember from tha dayz. but that's about it. looking forward to MacDonald Duck Eclair next week now come on, help us poor ignorant Brits out here, what the fuck is all that about?????? ^_^ ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:27:47 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] maybe calls for reflection for a second... david wrote :- i for one was rocked by the pixies for a time but do not find myself often needing to go back to that time hey, if you've got too many records (like me) there's going to be a lot of stuff you don't play as much as you should, right?? i always try to listen to 'new' stuff, but then always try to have a period of reflection, obviously these reflective periods become longer as time passes and if you're not careful you can stuck on the other side of the mirror! so from my point of view, every two steps forward demands at least one back, but... it's a careful step back ( retain a sense of humour). hmmm - haven't listened to elvis costello for a while - wonder what that means (probably nothing) see above ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:48:56 -0500 From: "david mack" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: que pasa? > looking forward to MacDonald Duck Eclair next week > > now come on, help us poor ignorant Brits out here, > what the fuck is all that about?????? an intentionally obscure to an obscure japanese lelctronic act with one track on a japanese magazine cd which was marvelous and a 3 song ep which should make it to my ears next week or did you mean maze? which should *not* be so unfarmiliar (philly soul may have made a bigger splash in the UK than stateside) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:00:48 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore In a message dated 28/04/01 18:31:33 GMT Daylight Time, sjgraziano@hotmail.com writes: > Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets, Buttholes, Husker Du, even > the Replacements forged this endless touring strategy until the majors > started to notice and sign these bands //////// agree with the basic point here but i thought a big factor in it all was MTV. the theory being that punk finally "happened" in the US when there was a national medium to get it across to a nationwide base. i've heard it explained that way a few times ; would US listers agree? p ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:14:28 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: eurotrash cometh In a message dated 28/04/01 19:12:23 GMT Daylight Time, iansjackson@hotmail.com writes: > agreed, this was the start of the end with the Stranglers for me, > although i liked some of the singles afterwards, including for instance, > 'Thrown Away' and 'Bear Cage', even 'Skin Deep' much later on!!!!! > ////// never liked thrown away (or any of the MIB album) at all. but skin deep is of course a classic , last twitch of the corpse i guess. > > for me it's a toss up between 'Rattus...' and 'B & W' for best lp, > 'No More Heroes' and 'The Raven' have their great moments > but the other two are great all the way through. > > ////// for me the problem with "rattus" is the huge doors influence , > whereas with B&W they finally had their own sound. agree completely about > the raven ; sublime (shah shah , genetix) to appalling (ice , meninblack). > "heroes" is an odd album , sitting chronologically in between 2 great > albums but to me its really tossed off , all those really silly > sexist/bully boy tracks which were really big in school playgrounds > everywhere. you know they still do stuff like "i feel like a wog" and > "dagenham dave" with their current karaoke line-up , so my sources tell me. > desperate stuff. p ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:32:52 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] shaky (slight return) well i took the plunge and bought a copy of the "light up the dynamite" compilation lp to see what mr gotobed sounds like on lead vocals ; sorry , couldn't resist it. first disappointment is that a wire discography i have lists this album as having 4 snakes tracks ; the 2 off the single (teenage head / lights out) and 2 more (have you seen baby / little queenie). this is wrong , you only get the latter 2. second disappointment is that (good god) i now have a shaky track in my collection , he contributes a number called "justine" which is up to his usual standard. so , the snakes. the disc comes with a nice gatefold inner , with a live action shot of rob at the mic. you get a band line up ; on guitar was nick garvey of the motors and the bassist was rob smith. sadly no photo of the latter , but i suspect it could well have been he of the cure fame. ok , i'm lying. the tracks are old rock n roll covers and sound much the same as all the other pub rock turns on this album. question ; why do all pub rockers (including rob) put on a dire fake american accent? suffice to say this isn't really my kind of thing.... in case you wondered , you also get tracks by nick lowe , tyla gang , count bishops and a couple of their dutch copyists. who on earth actually needs a pub rock cover of "thats all right mama" is beyond me. its very lovingly packaged and put together but let's just say i wouldn't recommend breaking the bank to get one unless you have a huge shaky fetish :-) p ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 17:59:52 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pretty Straight Damaged US Hardcore If MTV was EVER punk it was purely accidental; the M has always been for MONEY. The Buggles "Video Killed The Radio Star" being the first video they played, much to the amusement of my friends and I, seemed rather fitting, in that punk was never pretty nor was it handsome. The only place you see things on TV that aren't pretty or handsome is on the evening news. Remember, MTV was packaged to SELL shit; any advertising exec could tell you that. Furthermore, advertisers wanted clean new wave like Duran Duran (God help us all) and not rough and ugly Joe Strummer and the rest of the Clash. It was a looong time before anything by the Cure showed up on MTV (Lovecats,if I remember correctly) and even then there were no closeups of the band. The few times you'd see punk on early MTV was when they would do "music scene news" and show a brief snippet of Agent Orange or Fear or maybe some old Darby footage from the Germs. But a whole video? Not a chance. New wave was exactly that: a wave to ridden for all it was worth. OK, I talk too much...take your fukkin money and shove it up your ass, cause you think you understand but it's a fukkin farce (Wire) and I hate modern music, disco boogie and pop, they go on and on and on and on.............................how I wish they would STOP! (Buzzcocks) pretty boys on my tv screen with their teeth so white and their hair so clean (Joe Jackson) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 02:02:41 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] the year that punk broke... paul r wrote :- //////// agree with the basic point here but i thought a big factor in it all was MTV. the theory being that punk finally "happened" in the US when there was a national medium to get it across to a nationwide base. i've heard it explained that way a few times ; would US listers agree? p i think that's maybe what we've been getting at with this thread, but without using the letters M, T & V, paul. but it's about time someone did, so thank you, the message is the medium, the medium is the message! ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 02:09:28 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] i'm not going to cry... paul r wrote :- ////// for me the problem with "rattus" is the huge doors influence , whereas with B&W they finally had their own sound. despite the Doors influence, on it's own, 'Rattus..' is a classic lp but... agreed on the last point, it's a pity they got all their original gear pinched (in the States, if i remember correctly), as i think it had an adverse affect not just on the band's sound but on the way they heard the new songs that were written after 'B & W', maybe '5 Minutes' or 'Nice'n'Sleazy' is their definitive peak, i dunno. then again has anyone made a cover version better than 'Walk On By'??? agree completely about the raven ; sublime (shah shah , genetix) to appalling (ice , meninblack). sorry paul, here we disagree, i quite like 'Ice', in fact side 1 of 'The Raven' does the job for me. 'Shah, Shah..' was never a favourite of mine (too awkward stylistically), which only leaves 'Don't Bring Harry' and 'Duchess' on side 2 that i like. 'Meninblack' and 'Genetix' i hardly ever play, they just don't work as far as i'm concerned. a thought just occurred that the deliberate spelling of 'Meninblack' could be a reference to the Menin Gate in Ypres, Belgium (the one that has all, or most, of the names of the dead Allied troops that fell in WW1)!! i haven't looked into this before or checked Stranglers websites ever, so if it's old news or complete bollocks forgive me, it's late!! "heroes" is an odd album , sitting chronologically in between 2 great albums but to me its really tossed off , all those really silly sexist/bully boy tracks which were really big in school playgrounds everywhere. 'Heroes' suffers from major label 'let's bang another one out quick' syndrome.but with the Stranglers, you had to take the rough with the smooth anyway, especially lyric-wise. i tend(ed) to listen to the backing track first, nearly always. you know they still do stuff like "i feel like a wog" and "dagenham dave" with their current karaoke line-up , so my sources tell me. desperate stuff. absolutely, seeing the 'cabaret' line-up makes me want to kick the telly in, what does that singer think he's doing? i know he got death threats when he joined, but you'd think he would have sussed what that might have implied! i really thought J.J. was cooler than this, he should have retired gracefully and got into lecturing economics. ah well, old punks never die, they just get a taste for chicken-in-a basket, bah, ian.s.j. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #132 *******************************