From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #120 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, April 21 2001 Volume 04 : Number 120 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] RE:post-whore ["wiremailorder.com" ] [idealcopy] Colin Newman "It Seems" CD ["wiremailorder.com" ] [idealcopy] Re: Music Projects ["ray\)\(o\)\(mac" ] [idealcopy] On Subversion ["dMc" ] [idealcopy] Former Crazy Metal Stereo Knew Too Much! [=?iso-8859-1?q?Grae] [idealcopy] The Most Subversive Pop Singles of The Eighties No. 4 [=?iso-] Re: [idealcopy] The Most Subversive Pop Singles of The Eighties No. 4 ["K] [idealcopy] Sonic Youth/Outdoor Miner 45 [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] OT - DEVO/DOVE [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] It was all whirlwind, heat and flash! [PaulRabjohn@aol.co] [idealcopy] Devo ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] outdoor miner 7" ["ian jackson" ] Re: [idealcopy] It was all whirlwind, heat and flash! [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] Tuxedomoon ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] Re: Music Projects ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] OT - Feels like 1986! [Rick Hindman ] [idealcopy] wire on ebay question [Rick Hindman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 06:36:40 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: [idealcopy] RE:post-whore You two are sadly missing the point, quite like the Peoples Front of Judea - or was that Judean Peoples Front? Don't get all anal about what people hand over - whatever they hand over, they hand over. Just DO the project, not very wire-like to just talk about it on the list! c >I must say I'm with Giluz that the original Idealcopy music project idea was >a lot more "Wire" than another covers project, though if it gets us moving >it's fine. I've been reluctant to revive my take on the original concept as >there seemed to be some friction between different ideas - though my take was >that nothing was mutually exclusive.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:21:49 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: [idealcopy] Colin Newman "It Seems" CD Check out Half.com - two copies of It Seems for sale, and very cheap! charles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:21:50 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Re Tangerine Dream Just put down Paul Stumps incredibly wordy Digital Gothic last night (not a good book but the only one). Jerome Froese - who pictured on some of the early TD covers as a baby - has been in TD for some years now. Froese's relationship with other TD members has always been tenuous at best. Only Baumann received "preferential" treatment (the ability to come and go at leisure). Interestingly, Froese was about 10 years older than other TD members in the 70s, and problems with Franke date back to early 70s. Chalks up his "protestant" work ethic to the fact to his working class roots; German-born parents lived in Lithuania during the war, returned to Germany shortly after. Avoid everthing post-Schmoelling... charles shop@wiremailorder.com http://www.wiremailorder.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:12:36 +0100 From: Mark Short Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Re Tangerine Dream "wiremailorder.com" wrote: > > Just put down Paul Stumps incredibly wordy Digital Gothic last night (not a > good book but the only one). Jerome Froese - who pictured on some of the > early TD covers as a baby - has been in TD for some years now. Froese's > relationship with other TD members has always been tenuous at best. Only > Baumann received "preferential" treatment (the ability to come and go at > leisure). Interestingly, Froese was about 10 years older than other TD > members in the 70s, and problems with Franke date back to early 70s. Chalks > up his "protestant" work ethic to the fact to his working class roots; > German-born parents lived in Lithuania during the war, returned to Germany > shortly after. > > Avoid everthing post-Schmoelling... Is Baumann still active? The last thing I heard from him was a collaboration with Robert Palmer, which stank. The thing I like about Froese is that despite being very much the leader of the band he has no control over his back catalogue, which gets recycled in the shoddiest packaging. Perhaps he could form a self-help group with Mark E Smith? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:17:49 -0500 From: "ray\)\(o\)\(mac" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Music Projects Please refrain from slagging off other list members' ideas as to music projects. IMO the secondary reason NOTHING has been accomplished is that everyone thinks the list should produce something according to THEIR vision. This isn't a band, and it certainly is not the place to look for uniformity in musical direction. Matter of fact, if you have spent any time at all on this list you will see that the is the LAST place to look for uniformity. I say - let it all flow - covers, original wire-influenced projects, remixes, exquisite corpse. But please do not disrespect the efforts of the others - there is NO value in that. The importance is in the doing, not in critical assessments of potential. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:28:03 -0500 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] On Subversion I was in my teens when i clued to the fact tha tpoppies make one sleepy in the Wizard of Oz, but it was not until I had almost reached 30 that I realized that it required *snow* to wake from a poppy slumber. I would find Michael Jackson more subversive if I thought there was intent. My favorite popculture moment is watching thousands of middle-americans doing the YMCA motions at a sports match. Even Liberace was sub-rosa compared to the Village People. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:23:16 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Former Crazy Metal Stereo Knew Too Much! Mark>>>>Metal Urbaine were a truly great band, probaly the only truly great French band. Ever heard Ulan Bator, Deity Guns or Bastard? Mark>>>>"Don't really see a Wire connection - MU are angry/political in a very direct way...." Robert>>>>Yeah, no, not much of a connection really, but there is the energy and mannered weirdness they have in common. But "Former Airline" and "Lady Coco Cola" are from the same zeitgeist, don't you think? Perhaps so... I picked up their early RT single because some reviewer compared them to Joy Division! Somewhat tenuous, but I guess it was Novelty and the very early pre-Hannet stuff. Got bored with it and flogged it, which never happened to a Wire record! Anyway in my sometimes not so humble opinion, Metal Urbain bear more similarity to (at least phase one) Wire then Stereolab do! Speaking of Wire as we sometimes do... Mark>>>>Colin's remix is based on a live recording of CAL from (I think) the Cochrane Theatre. He also used tapes of contemporary live Wire and/or soundchecks, specifically the saxes from the opening piece on Garage Sunday which kind of was and wasn't 'Former Airline' (to paraphrase the words of the Colin). John on 'Know Too Much' >>>>I don't know who produced this WalkingSeeds record. Was it Kramer? No, it was Freddy Viaduct also guilty of Half Man Half Biscuit's 'Trumpton Riots' (an old favourite of mine which doesn't get a lot of turntable time these days). Both are very overloaded and brutal. Kramer did the 'Upwind of Disaster' and 'Bad Orb, Whirling Ball' albums. What a great damaged psyche freakrock outfit they were. Takes me back to those heady Planet X Liverpool days. It might not be well known that three of them regrouped not so long ago as Rhombus of Doom and recorded a brilliant mostly instrumental (but still mental) album. Probe records in Liverpool might be able to sort you out with a copy - not sure if this is the right URL... http://www.probe-records.com or perhaps more directly http://www.probe-records.com/magneto or try sending a message to magneto@probe-records.com Anyway, I noticed that there was a dearth of information on WalkingSeeds and related musics online, so have thrown together a page which I'll add to Cracked Machine fairly soon. Mark>>>>Had that record (or any other of PiL's hits) been made by anybody else, they would have been highly-regarded cult pieces of their time (much as Wire singles are). But Johnny Rotten was the singer, hence the records charted. So what? It charted! Johnny Rotten changed the world of rock pops completely in his teenage years. As such it's not surprising he had an ego the size of a sun. Full kudos to the man for getting more extreme with Levene and completely rubbishing all the boring late Pistols copiers and McClaren's dimwit party line. It's amazing PiL lasted that long when you think about it! Seeing PiL perform that on TOTP was probably the most utterly disturbing piece of art I ever experienced. I had no idea Lydon was in the Pistols - they were just some dim distant memory from shock horror news bulletins that seemed to vilify the Bay City Rollers just as much. It might have been because McClaren wore a daft tartan suit, but I used to get the two groups muddled up. 'The Flowers of Romance' is the most evil and unhinged sounding piece of music ever to chart in UK rock pops. The drums have the hook - utter tribal narcotic! Later, I got thrown out of art class for breaking the paintbrushes banging that rhythm out (how rebellious). Pre-empted that techno thing (like many other 'post punk' groups - see KJ/Follow the Leaders, Banshees/Slap Dash Snap, Pop Group, Wire/Another the Letter, Mr Partridge Take Away...) >>Painted face of Adam Ant blisters and cracks. Bow Wow Wow strangled by unwinding tape as studio erupts. Wunderbar! Wunderbar! It meant nothing to Midge, but I just couldn't get enough!<< Anyway, Lydon's penetrating lysergic stare and Levene's lethargic hatted drum motions showed up everyone else's moves as the hollow jokes they were and TOTP soon lost its appeal. After that I had to make do with Dr Who for interesting noise on TV. Demonic tribal rhythms, headcleaning violin drones and malevolent backwards accordion solos forcing their way onto the airwaves were perhaps just a little bit more subversive than perky one finger synthesiser melodies? "I sent you flowers, you wanted chocolates instead!" >>and those subversive Mode boys just couldn't get enough love<< I'll take the furniture Start all over again! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:25:54 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] The Most Subversive Pop Singles of The Eighties No. 4 Bonnie Tyler - Total Eclipse of the Heart Every now and then she falls apart, but in this bic lighter sponsored stadium opus Bonnie not only glimpses the end of the end of the line but sees the bright eyes of the lightbringer himself glowing there. Bonnie can't keep his attention though and he soon turns around, leaving her in the dark. This is a metaphor for the higher beings turning their backs on the humans who are messing up big time. Who'd want a bunch of gun toting monkeys messing up space with their puny atom bombs and mobile phone masts? All the little hairy demonoids they lapped it up and it shot up to number one. Not so subversive you think, but in the song Bonnie claims to glimpse the infinite. "Forever's gonna start tonight!" Every hour on the hour a secret satanic message of organic collapse disguised as an overwrought megalove ballad inscribed back masked messages into the skulls of the world's least discerning pop pickers. Not only was Bonnie subversive, she was revolutionary. Unfortunately bikers didn't listen to Radio One and when she tried to summon 'bright eye' with this invocation at the Reading festival (where oddly not many people do much reading) they pelted the poor diva with bottles of piss. ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:29:36 -0400 From: "Katherine Pouliot" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Most Subversive Pop Singles of The Eighties No. 4 Is this for real? - --------- > Not only was Bonnie subversive, she was revolutionary. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:33:54 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Sonic Youth/Outdoor Miner 45 >From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= > >Actually parts of Lee R's 'Dirty Windows' feature the >whole SY minus Kim. I have a big problem with most of >her post-Dirty vocals. She just sounds like she's >singing a deaf baby to sleep or something Actually, it started soon after their baby was born, so ... when they do her old songs live she can still belt them out, so it's not a matter of losing her voice. Anyway, on SYR 5 I thought it mixed in w/ the mood well. Less sure on recent SY albums. >Thurston Moore does so much that the quality sometimes >suffers. I enjoyed his light and airy collaborations >with drummer Tom Surgal. Hmm... perhaps. I kind of like the way he just gets together w/ people, plays, and puts the recording out. This perhaps is an attempt to follow free-jazz traitions rather than album rock? The Root remixes had their >moments (best Add N to X track ever?) but Bruce's >contribution was a bit obvious. yes, although there was a certain charm to the way everyone ignored all instructions and just did what they wanted to do. Bruce put it into the shed. >I thought the cover of Sonic Youth's 'Goo' album was a >rather good slap at the face of the PMRC. A badly >proportioned Ray Pettibone picture of a couple at the >wheel of a car with the legend: "I stole my sister's >boyfriend. It was all whirlwind heat and flash. Within >a week we killed my parents and hit the road." Yeah, well, that "couple" was in fact a real pair of serial killers. Very brutal, very emotionless. I'm anti-censorship, and defend their right to etc., but I understand why some of the victim's families were less than amused. >From: "ian jackson" >Subject: [idealcopy] outdoor miner 7" > > sean wrote :- > what's my 7" Outdoor Miner on white vinyl worth these days > > ian wrote :- > judging by my emails re Mannequin... > probably about about 18 dollars by my reckoning. > anyone?? > > Chriswire wrote :- > I bought a very good condition copy on e-bay about 3 months ago for 4 >pounds. > > ian writes back :- > maybe not 18 dollars then, i suspect there are more white vinyl copies > of Outdoor Miner out there than we realise... > but then someone else has mailed to say i'm about right... > oh i don't know, somewhere inbetween Sean??????? > >ian.s.j. I have the white vinyl, but I've never seen it in black. :) With ebay, there is no logic. People often get in bidding wars that drive up the price artificially. Also, sometimes you just get lucky. Depends on who else is looking for the item when you are. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:38:58 +0100 From: "Ian B" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Metal - ----- Original Message ----- From: > A couple of years ago I bought a French album simply on the strength of the > band's name - Aston Villa (honest!) There'll be people in France buying St Ettiene records on the same kind of whim. Imagine how they feel. Ian (We all love Leeds!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:33:36 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - DEVO/DOVE In a message dated 20/04/01 01:13:36 GMT Daylight Time, Mark Bursa writes: > << again , not as good in practice as in theory.....p >> > > Pretty much sums Devo up for me. > > Mark ////////// you know i used to quite like them around the time of the first 2 albums. somebody lent me a bootleg album last year and i was quite worried that i remembered almost all those lyrics. "teachers and critics / all dance the poot" indeed. but their 80's albums are mostly pretty bland stuff.p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:38:54 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] It was all whirlwind, heat and flash! In a message dated 20/04/01 03:11:54 GMT Daylight Time, CHRISWIRE@aol.com writes: > > but nevermind. I also have to give Little Richard some > > credit for his dingalang lingalong or whatever it was. > > > > Chuck Berry? Lying flat down on the ground ! covered in flame resistent > material ! > ////////// crap trivia for today. chuck berry's "my ding a ling" was recorded at that great rock venue coventry poly. that used to be a haunt of mine in the early/mid-80's and did make me smile when i realised it had such a claim to fame.p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:58:01 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Devo Paul, << again , not as good in practice as in theory.....p >> Pretty much sums Devo up for me. Mark >> i really didn't like them early on, at the time of 'Jocko Homo', but now i think 'Be Stiff', 'Come Back Jonee', 'Satisfaction' and 'Whip It' are classic singles, mind you, i never got round to hearing the lp's! ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:14:50 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] outdoor miner 7" Michael wrote :- I have the white vinyl, but I've never seen it in black. :) i have the white too, but there are black copies, i believe. With ebay, there is no logic. People often get in bidding wars that drive up the price artificially. Also, sometimes you just get lucky. Depends on who else is looking for the item when you are. true...ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:24:11 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] It was all whirlwind, heat and flash! << ///////// crap trivia for today. chuck berry's "my ding a ling" was recorded at that great rock venue coventry poly. that used to be a haunt of mine in the early/mid-80's and did make me smile when i realised it had such a claim to fame.p >> Cov Poly was the Alma Mater of EG Lewis, of course. Sadly before his time, though the thought of his rich tenor joining in the call-and-response parts of Chuck's magum opus is a nice one. Quite. Most of Crispy Ambulance's live album Fin was recorded at Cov Poly too. Now there's a link! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:28:39 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Tuxedomoon Sean wrote :- It puts me in mind of The Residents and Tuxedomoon. >a year or so ago, i found a Tuxedomoon 12" called 'Scream With A View', (4 tracks 'Nervous Guy' 'Where Interests Lie' 'Family Man' and 'Midnite Stroll') in a charity shop and it cost about 25 cents!!!!!! (10 or 20 pence) a bargain, but is it actually worth any real money? i was never a fan of theirs but when i saw it, i remembered the name and got it out of curiousity! i quite like it, though it positively reeks of the late '70s!!!!! cheers, ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:17:12 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Music Projects Please refrain from slagging off other list members' ideas as to music projects. IMO the secondary reason NOTHING has been accomplished is that everyone thinks the list should produce something according to THEIR vision. This isn't a band, and it certainly is not the place to look for uniformity in musical direction. Matter of fact, if you have spent any time at all on this list you will see that the is the LAST place to look for uniformity. I say - let it all flow - covers, original wire-influenced projects, remixes, exquisite corpse. But please do not disrespect the efforts of the others - there is NO value in that. The importance is in the doing, not in critical assessments of potential. > i couldn't agree more dave. ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:21:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hindman Subject: [idealcopy] OT - Feels like 1986! Perhaps some listee has heard some info about a rumor I heard at work yesterday. One of my coworkers said there was a Summer tour in the works that would be: The Fixx New Order The Smiths Has there been any eardrum buzzing about that? Perhaps a warmup gig to review or something like that? Just curious. On the music composition front, I would agree not to structure it at all and let people do what they want. Based on past results, the "song by committee" deal didn't work out to well. I would be interested in trying out a song, but as a non-musician, my biggest fear is to end up with a "William Shatner sings Wire!!" sound!! That could be nasty.... Stay Ideal you crazy copyists!! RJH ===== - ----------------------------------------------------------- "Suffering is our experience of the distance between what we are and who we wish to become. - -Robert Fripp - ----------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:49:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hindman Subject: [idealcopy] wire on ebay question Hey you crazy copyists, you.... I was on ebay and was looking at the following item: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1425373560 I recall on the list a gatefold-style version of Manscape being mentioned and was wondering if anyone can verify whether this is one of them? I was under the impression that the limited edition had some bonus tracks, but this one doesn't appear to. hmmmm... PS - I did put a bid in on "...Singing Fish/Not to", so hopefully that will pan out! hasta luego todos! RJH < Who's listening to 'Manscape' as I type!> ===== - ----------------------------------------------------------- "Suffering is our experience of the distance between what we are and who we wish to become. - -Robert Fripp - ----------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #120 *******************************