From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #117 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, April 18 2001 Volume 04 : Number 117 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] post-whore/Erasure erased ["giluz" ] RE: [idealcopy] Re: Autechre ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] Re: live performance/wire covers [Howard Spencer ] [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #116 ["ray\)\(o\)\(mac" ] Re: [idealcopy] Metal [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] In Subversive Mode [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] Re: [idealcopy] post-whore/Erasure erased [HeySean@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Certain General ["stephen graziano" ] [idealcopy] Certain General ["stephen graziano" ] Re: [idealcopy] Metal [HeySean@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] Metal ["Cambra, Robert" ] Re: [idealcopy] Metal [HeySean@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Metal [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Metal [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Metal [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] The Third Day [Dr Volume ] [idealcopy] gabbagabbahey ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] under irish patronage ["ian jackson" ] Re: [idealcopy] In Subversive Mode [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] When One Is Quite Able To Take Off [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] under irish patronage [HeySean@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Most subversive single of the Eighties? [MarkBursa@aol.co] [idealcopy] get back in the 6" gold blade draw ["ian jackson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:42:16 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] post-whore/Erasure erased > [Another Whore] > "So I guess the order of business is...do we treat it > like an album? Do we limit ourselves to one (or two) > covers apiece or should we just put up however much we > want? Any ideas?" I have to admit that the prospect doesn't look that interesting to me. The Ideal Copy music project, discussed and debated here for a long time, which didn't come out to anything, is much more interesting and much more in the spirit of Wire. Contrary to the evidence from Wire's Pink flag tour, Wire are not into retro, and this project sounds like a very retro thing, especially since it's been already done, and even that (whore) doesn't sound very good today. Unless you're talking about something like the Dugga project, that, regardless of its electronic bias (which I personally approve of), is about taking a song and remaking it as a completely different one for each mix. The concept of covers has been done to death, and it's boring and anachronistic. It reeks of 80's-early 90's attitude. This is Wire we're talking about here, not the Beatles - any tribute project should be done in a style/attitude that is appropriate to its subject. I do support the idea of having an IdealCopy music project, but not this way. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:49:38 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Autechre > I have to admit to a luddite/theatrical element in me that wants to see > more from live performance than blokes crouched over laptops, twiddling > and clicking. A short and striking-looking middle aged man shouting YOU > REALLY TAKE THE BISCUIT does nicely. Then again, if the music's good > enough, that dosen't matter so much. Actually, it does matter, even if the music is good. One of the problems with computer music is, that even when you do play it live, it doesn't have that performance-art thing conventional musical instruments do. Prodigy were an attempt to bypass that by having dancers in the band, and that's what ruined them eventually. Other acts usually do video, but it's not enough. Personally, I would do with a large screen displaying the computer and/or the other electronic devices being played. It may not be much in terms of performance, but it gives you a clue as to what the musicians are really doing, and it also demystifies that whole process of electronic music making, which needs to be demystified. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:21:00 +0100 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: live performance/wire covers > > I have to admit to a luddite/theatrical element in me that wants to see > > more from live performance than blokes crouched over laptops, twiddling > > and clicking. A short and striking-looking middle aged man shouting YOU > > REALLY TAKE THE BISCUIT does nicely. Then again, if the music's good > > enough, that dosen't matter so much. > >giluz wrote: Actually, it does matter, even if the music is good. One of the problems > with computer music is, that even when you do play it live, it doesn't have > that performance-art thing conventional musical instruments do. Prodigy were > an attempt to bypass that by having dancers in the band, and that's what > ruined them eventually. Other acts usually do video, but it's not enough. > Personally, I would do with a large screen displaying the computer and/or > the other electronic devices being played. It may not be much in terms of > performance, but it gives you a clue as to what the musicians are really > doing, and it also demystifies that whole process of electronic music > making, which needs to be demystified. Couldn't agree more with your last statement - but I wonder if all the practicioners would feel the same way? I meant to say `perhaps that doesn't matter so much' - i.e. I *have* enjoyed static performances - they are just much better with something to look at. The sort of technique you mention was used by Schneider TM when I saw them last year, and it worked really well. Big screens with an oscilloscope type projections. I like Schneider's album - one of the best of last year. Perhaps some people might think them a bit `novelty' - - a Smiths cover with vocoders dosen't work for everyone, I have to recognise. RE Wire Covers - I was in a duo in about 1993/4 ish (called Effete). We attempted a version of 'a mutual friend'. I couldn't work out the chords properly, we shelved it, and when Whore came out we had to admit that whoeveritwas's super-camp falsetto version pissed all over anything we could've managed. If I did a wir(e) cover now it would be `it continues' and I would get a woman to sing it. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:31:04 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: live performance/wire covers > RE Wire Covers - I was in a duo in about 1993/4 ish (called Effete). We > attempted a version of 'a mutual friend'. I couldn't work out the chords > properly, we shelved it, and when Whore came out we had to admit that > whoeveritwas's super-camp falsetto version pissed all over anything we > could've managed. I think I'm probably one of the only lister that actually liked this version, because it was so different from the original and because it's a great laugh. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:10:13 -0500 From: "ray\)\(o\)\(mac" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #116 Why are we here?! "We are here to go . Bryon Gysin "Do you want fries with that?" Clerk at the hotdog stand "Do fries come with that shake?" George Clinton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:21:54 +1000 From: "Valley Of Death" Subject: [idealcopy] German Shephards and In Vivo Does the 7"version of 'In Vivo' and silk skin paws b-side version of 'German Shephards' appear on The A List compilation? I would really love to get hold of these two particular versions. cheers Alex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:02:43 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] post-whore/Erasure erased > Perhaps you could illuminate me on this Ideal Copy > music project as it's a bit before my time here. The music project was an idea someone had once we discovered that this list has quite a high percentage of musicians. Most of the time spent on it was concerning the kind of approach we would take to this, and how to enable any lister who wants to participate to do so. It's a bit tiring and didn't come out to much so I won't bother you with the details. All suggestions, though, were quite interesting and involved the concept of musical collaboration via the internet. It fell out just when the time came for actually doing something and start uploading files. No-one did a thing about it except for Steve Jackson which gave us a drum track of his that we could use. > > Additionally I agree with you to some extent about > covers records, as most aren't very good and you're > right in regards to Wire's outlook on the past. > > But we're not Wire, and none of the people on Whore > (to my knowledge) were ever members of this list with > the *possible* exception of the Ex-Lion Tamers. So > what harm would it do to see how listers interpret > their favorite Wire songs? It won't do any harm. It's just less interesting and adventurous than the previous project. I kinda figure that if listers have the time and energy to invest in a wire tribute why not do something interesting instead of the old cover method. Are Ex-Lion Tamers members on this list (is there an ex-ex-lion tamer in the house?)? giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:18:09 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Metal And there I was thinking I was the only person with a copy of Les Hommes Morts... Metal Urbaine were a truly great band, probaly the only truly great French band. Certainly the only good punk band (le's draw a discreet veil over Little Bob story....) I once saw a photo of them. Looked like rockabillies, like you might imagine a French punk band would... The Metal Boys/Dr Mix thing was the result of a split in the band - the vocalist became Dr Mix and the rest of them continued as Metal Boys. Wonder what became of them? Supporting Plastic Bertrand on the "le Punk Rock nostalgie de '77" circuit? Doubt it somehow. Don't really see a Wire connection - MU are angry/political in a very direct way.... FASCISTE!!!!! Mark << Long entries on The Fall, Joy Division and The Cure are something I endure to enjoy this list overall, but it's all worthwhile for those occasional mentions of those old not so well know favorites Metal Urbain, Blurt/Ted Milton (very exciting to hear that he did a guest shot with Wire last year) and DAF. The Metal Boys were a bit of Gothic fun, but Metal Urbain--imagine Wire were French and for some reason wanted to be the Sex Pistols, ate meth amphetamine all day long and took their inspiration for guitar playing from Eddie Cochran. The CD has a lot of stuff not on the LP including a live recording of Lady Coca Cola with a pack of girls screaming on cue between riffs. By around '81 the main guy was doing something called Dr. Mix and The Remix, all whacked out classic rock covers. Hilarious. Robert > Metal Urbain: les hommes morts sont dangereux > Excellent ! Another Metal Urbain enthusiast.I have a couple of singles & the one they released as "The Metal Boys" (I presume).Can you elaborate on this release ? >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:04:03 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] In Subversive Mode Tim>>>>And surely the only 80s band who can rival Wire for twisted, subversive pop singles are Depeche Mode? >>>>OK it was a sweeping statement, but I stick by it! PiL - The Flowers of Romance UK Top 30 / 1981 You might think that doesn't really fit your definition of Pop with a capital P though... but if it's subversion you want then that's the record. >>>>I *was* talking about Pop with a capital P, meaning radio-friendly unit shifter with shiny production values. I prefer pop with a small p as in music made by the people for the people rather than music made by fame diggers for corporate remuneration. Or pop made by artists in the interests of transcendence. But if Depeche Mode had melodies that 'shouldn't be on the radio' how can they also be described as 'radio-friendly unit shifter with shiny production values'? Were they big P Pop or not? Who cares? They were a bit crap. Pop is not a precisely defined musical genre. Nor is rock. To me the distinction between the two is nigh on meaningless. And AMM are not necessarily better than the Beatles, but I prefer listening to AMM. The comparison is pointless. Oddly enough I did hear Keith Rowe perform a breathtakingly inspirational flatbed guitar improvisation at the Paul McCartney Institute for Pop Star Training and Continence in Liverpool a couple of years ago. It may not have been as deep and meaningful as 'Ebony and ivory side by side on my piana keyboard' but my sceptical mega-Ramones fan friend walked away mightily impressed. Apparently Paul McCartney was well into AMM too. As the frog chorus so subversively sang of them: "AMM won't lose. Sink or swim, one things for sure: they never gave in!" >>>>I can't believe Im defending 'ver mode here, cos they are a bit crap, but if you blank out the image of the band, the dreadful stadium rock stuff they did in the 90s, and just listen to those great and *strange* singles. I don't want to sound patronising, but I have listened to those singles and heard them all at the time before the perceived problematic Mode image problems and I think we must have very different interpretations of what 'strange' means. The funny thing is you often seem to take the piss out of music that I'd perhaps agree was strange. I suppose any perceived strangeness is relative to what one defines as 'normal'. But what is normal? And if they were subversive because >>>>Its not the lryics at all, its the weird little melodies....that shouldn't be on the radio! then we also have very different understandings of subversion! How are these melodies subversive? I can't hear it! The melodies of the Human League's 'Sound of the Crowd' sound stranger to me... or OMD's 'Dazzle Ships'... or Soft Cell's 'Bedsitter'. >>>>just a long list of full-on rock bands, some of whom had the odd catchy tune but not really Pop. A bit like Wire. Not as in sounding like them exactly, but Wire are a rock band. If 'Too Late' and 'Pink Flag' don't rock then what does? This does not imply that they are not also a pop band. The two are not mutually exclusive. All these singles are catchy tunes to my ears. It might not always be in the vocal melody or bright upfront synths. The drumming and guitar riff of Loop's 'Collision' are unforgettable and the bass line from 'Black Sun' utterly insistent. I guess Foetus and Birthday Party singles might have been too subversive to get on the regular radio playlists, but I certainly didn't forget the blistering tunes to 'Blast Off' and 'Ramrod' after first hearing them. Michael Gira screaming, "I wanted to do this to you, Bastard!" at the top of his lungs over some unforgettably pulverising drumming makes for a great piece of pop music. Maybe Dep Mode could be subversive at the same time and give us a few 'Just Can't Get Enough' choruses in his subversive bondage suit and who can ever forget those subversive synth lines? Depeche Swan Megamix: "I wanted to do THIS to you, Bastard!" 'Just Can't Get Enough! Oooh Just Can't Get Enough!' "I wanted to do THIS to you, Bastard!" 'Just Can't Get Enough! Oooh Just Can't Get Enough!' >>>>I could say you were being ever so slightly patronising there I'm sure Michael Gira would say the same thing to you if you told him Swans were making 'alt-rock'. I suspect he wouldn't regard them as pop either! >>>>is that a whiff of dusty old rock-snobbery on the breeze? So if rock is old, what does that make jazz? Since I don't really see any point in drawing a dividing line between rock and pop I can hardly be a rock snob. Rock snobs probably don't listen to Albert Ayler all that often! >>>>And cos I love soppy indie bands like Stereolab! Wire and Suicide aren't exactly soppy, which partially explains why I can't see much connection with Stereolab. 'Too Late' rocks. Stereolab don't. At least they didn't on the three occasions I heard them perform. I have nothing against Stereolab really, but all the well known alt-rock not-Pop bands I listed have songs that are more memorable. I've heard loads of Stereolab songs and they seem to slip out of my memory before they're even finished they're so wishy washy. I actually made an effort to try to get into them since so many people with good taste seemed to rate them so highly but just found it all very boring, old and dusty. If you're going to rip off Can at least give it a demented twist like The Fall did! I will say one thing in favour of Depeche Mode. The profits Mute made from them and Erasure did supposedly help fund much more interesting endeavours such as Blast First, The Grey Area and Parallel Series. The funny thing is it must be Nick Cave who's raking it in now. Who'd have thought it back when he was reckoning a bit too close to this one and hollering hands up who wants to die with fuckin' wings burst out his back? So is Nick Cave pop or is he rock? Is it too late to change my mind? Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:00:34 -0500 From: "squonk" Subject: [idealcopy] ] post-whore[ Re-IN ] [ Being that this is not the first time that this subject has com up - and the most that has come of it in the past is one or 2 short mp3s I suggest that we collect all we can and deal with the culling and restriction later If anyone has 40 version - and the bandwidth - so be it I will personally be surprised if we get 14 As will I be surprised if I find the time to knowck out a blessed state or so (but i am going to try) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:12:50 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: "New" John Cale it's not on the CD version i have - Spy 004 >From: "giluz" >To: "IdealCopy" , "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" > >Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: "New" John Cale >Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:23:08 +0200 > > > Found it on allmusic.com - it is by John Cale and appears on his 79 > > "Sabotage/Live" album > >Really? So they probably put it as a bonus track - it wasn't released on >the >vinyl version (which only had live material). I remember seeing the CD >release of Sabotage and noticing that the Animal Justice EP is there in its >entirety (not only is it a great release, it was the first Cale solo that I >bought). I didn't notice this one, though. > >giluz _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:28:22 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: [idealcopy] Certain General Fellow Ideal Copiers. Back in the day (81 - 85) I worked with a band that I felt was one of the coolest outfits around. They were called Certain General, out of NYC. Maybe some of you who were around in those days recall them. If not, think of a circle bounded by Joy Division, Bauhaus, the Doors, Echo & the Bunnymen, the Birthday Party, REM, and the Contortions and somewhere within that area Certain General worked. After a long period of noncontact with the band, I have reached a state of rapprochment with the guys and am planning to issue some previously recorded but never released material laid down during their heyday. I would like to invite any and all to check out the yahoo groups sitehttp://www.groups.yahoo.com/certaingeneralvia this link and either share recollections, or just lurk, and consider the purchase of the "Savage Young Generals" 2CD set (we plan to market it directly for $15 US) which will have 2 1/2 hours of music and video, all previously unreleased, when the material is compiled and mastered. Thank you, Steve. G - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:46:43 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-whore/Erasure erased Back at the end of the 80's when Wire deigned to come to LA (finally!), Ex-Lion Tamer opened for them. It was brilliant: they played the entire Pink Flag album from first note til last. Wire got to play Snakedrill and the like and we fans got to hear the (ahem) oldies. Taking your own cover band on tour with you - best bit of concert business since Devo opened for themselves as Dove! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:49:54 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Certain General http://www.groups.yahoo/certaingeneral this is the corrected url. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:54:15 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: [idealcopy] Certain General http://groups.yahoo.com/group/certaingeneral this is right this time, I'm sure. - Steve. G - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:01:46 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: [idealcopy] Certain General ok, i don't know if i'm particularly retarded today, but the url for Certain General keeps coming out wrong, so for the last timehttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/certaingeneral please check out the site, my stupidity does not reflect on the qualityof the band. - Steve. G - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:15:23 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Metal Hey! at least you parlez vous enough to know Metal Urbain were being political. Me, I just jumped around in my living room singing lyrics that I couldn't comprehend to the amusement of my friends. To my way of thinking, the voice was just another instrument (clever fellow wot! been to college, ain't I?) and so it was like scatting along with Sarah Vaughn or something. As far as drawing the Wire comparison, I'm talking about the sheer forcefulness of the music itself, when a band maneuvers themself into a positon where they can just let it rip and the pure pleasure they get from that freedom is evident in literally every note ( oh my he does go on then doesn't he?). On that level Pop Poubelle and 12XU are equals and there are only a few other tunes that can make that claim (trying to start something is he?). But someone mentioned a CD? A Metal Urbain CD? Can that be right? I mean, I knew the English would be clever enough to get their stuff on CD (and with all these 25 year anniversaries we are seeing a lot of vaults being re-opened), but the French? (small pause here for knowing winks and nudges) My Metal Urbain album is 20 years older (me too) and I might not even recognize it, all computer re-mastered and sanitized for my protection. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:12:44 -0400 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Metal Mark says: "And there I was thinking I was the only person with a copy of Les Hommes > Morts..." Mais non! I was playing the cd at work recently but had to take it home; it was just too raw and exciting to listen to while working. "Metal Urbaine were a truly great band, probaly the only truly great French > band. Certainly the only good punk band" Certainement--I love Plastic Bertrand but he doesn't really count as a punk band. "I once saw a photo of them. Looked like rockabillies, like you might imagine > a French punk band would..." Were there no others? They sure made the most of Frenchifying an American/British music. "The Metal Boys/Dr Mix thing was the result of a split in the band - the > vocalist became Dr Mix and the rest of them continued as Metal Boys." Ah, a split, not a consecutive development--I didn't know that . "Wonder what became of them?" Maybe they got jobs in advertising? > "Supporting Plastic Bertrand on the "le Punk Rock > nostalgie de '77" circuit? Doubt it somehow." Moi, aussi. "Don't really see a Wire connection - MU are angry/political in a very direct > way...." Yeah, no, not much of a connection really, but there is the energy and mannered weirdness they have in common. But "Former Airline" and "Lady Coco Cola" are from the same zeitgeist, don't you think? "FASCISTE!!!!!" One of my favorite things about listening to Metal Urbain is, despite being able to understand some of the lyrics, pretending they are mostly in English--you can get great stuff that way: "Sex no more! Merci, monsieur--saxophone!" Robert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:14:05 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Metal uhm Plastic Bertrand....is that getting a bit far afield? here in LA he was a big hit with Ca Plane Pour Moi and I could always get the girls to smile with Stop Or Go and Super Cool (understand just owning a record in a foreign language set you up alright) or something else off his Grandes Succes album (yeah I know it means greatest hits, it's right on the front of the album innit?) Now back to Wire: what's my 7" Outdoor Miner on white vinyl worth these days?? (I thought it had gone missing but it was lurking behind my English Subtitles 7" of Time Tunnel) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:31:47 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Metal Sean, << Hey! at least you parlez vous enough to know Metal Urbain were being political. << Mais oui, mon brave, je parle Francais tout bien.... >> Me, I just jumped around in my living room singing lyrics that I couldn't comprehend to the amusement of my friends. To my way of thinking, the voice was just another instrument (clever fellow wot! been to college, ain't I?) and so it was like scatting along with Sarah Vaughn or something.<< That's how I listen to records sung in English ;-) >>As far as drawing the Wire comparison, I'm talking about the sheer forcefulness of the music itself, when a band maneuvers themself into a positon where they can just let it rip and the pure pleasure they get from that freedom is evident in literally every note ( oh my he does go on then doesn't he?). << The difference is Wire are knowingly being forceful. Metal Urbain are just being forceful. >>On that level Pop Poubelle<< which means Pop Dustbin, or Pop Trashcan if you're american... >> and 12XU are equals and there are only a few other tunes that can make that claim (trying to start something is he?).<< I think there are many, many tunes that can make that claim...but I'm not even going to start listing them! >> But someone mentioned a CD? A Metal Urbain CD? Can that be right? I mean, I knew the English would be clever enough to get their stuff on CD (and with all these 25 year anniversaries we are seeing a lot of vaults being re-opened), but the French? (small pause here for knowing winks and nudges) My Metal Urbain album is 20 years older (me too) and I might not even recognize it, all computer re-mastered and sanitized for my protection.<< Sadly no CDs that I'm aware of. You'll just have to look after your vinyl copy for a while longer. Cheers, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:32:57 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Metal Robert, << Certainement--I love Plastic Bertrand but he doesn't really count as a punk band. >> Nor does he count as French. he's one of the 10 famous Belgians ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:37:11 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Metal Robert, << "I once saw a photo of them. Looked like rockabillies, like you might imagine > a French punk band would..." Were there no others? They sure made the most of Frenchifying an American/British music. >> The best-known French "punk" bands from 77 were the aforementioned Little Bob Story (turgid pub rock, with fat bloke in suit on vocals) and Stinky Toys (er..turgid pub rock, but with a better name, and no fat bloke). I have a Stinky Toys single somewhere. Must dig it out. (I must...I really must!) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:53:09 +0100 From: Dr Volume Subject: [idealcopy] The Third Day There a quote from EG Lewis in an interview from 1987 on Graeme Rowlands Cracked Machine site, "And the first two days it was as if we weren'tall in the room together but on the third day we found something where everyone was locked in. At that point it was inspiring enough for us all to want to do more so we booked more rehearsal time. If it hadn't worked out Wire would have been cancelled" This is Graham talking about the rehearsals for the Oxford MOMA show. So is that why PF1 session is taken from The Third Day of rehearsals for the RFH show? Wonder if this was the day the Drill emerged? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:05:32 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] gabbagabbahey Katherine, here in merry old england, joey's death was actually mentioned at the end of the national BBC news!!!!!! ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:59:53 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] under irish patronage Graeme wrote :- "Wings" - The Fall...... absolutely, one of the greatest things ever committed to tape along with Wire's 'Map Ref.', 'Ambition' - Subway Sect and 'God Gave Us Life'... ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:18:13 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] metal urbain Robert wrote :- Metal Urbain--imagineWire were French and for some reason wanted to be the Sex Pistols, ate meth amphetamine all day long and took their inspiration for guitar playing from Eddie Cochran. this, i have got to hear! i presume their stuff is hard to get hold of. i old enough to vaguely remember the name but i'm sure i've not heard anything by them. best place to start??????? salud, ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:09:47 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] In Subversive Mode >>>And surely the only 80s band who can rival Wire for twisted, subversive pop singles are Depeche Mode? >>>>OK it was a sweeping statement, but I stick by it!<< Don't see much in the way of twisted, or subversive in DM. Less so than, say, the Cure or New Order, or the other great 80s singles bands, The Smiths and The Jesus and Mary Chain. I'm fairly ambivalent about DM, same as I am about U2. >>PiL - The Flowers of Romance UK Top 30 / 1981 You might think that doesn't really fit your definition of Pop with a capital P though... but if it's subversion you want then that's the record.<< Had that record (or any other of PiL's hits) been made by anybody else, they would have been highly-regarded cult pieces of their time (much as Wire singles are). But Johnny Rotten was the singer, hence the records charted. >>>>I *was* talking about Pop with a capital P, meaning radio-friendly unit shifter with shiny production values. I prefer pop with a small p as in music made by the people for the people rather than music made by fame diggers for corporate remuneration. Or pop made by artists in the interests of transcendence.<< Hmmm..... OK, Outdoor Miner is as good a pop record as you'll ever hear. I'm not sure it fits any of those above descriptions. >>Wire and Suicide aren't exactly soppy, which partially explains why I can't see much connection with Stereolab. 'Too Late' rocks. Stereolab don't. << French Disko most certainly rocks. In fact most of the first two or three 'lab albums cruise along in a Neu! kind of way. More recent works tend to noodle, admittedly. I blame hanging out with the bloke from Tortoise. Personally I can see quite a big connection with Wire, up to Emperor Tomato Ketchup. (inc Cybele's Reverie - another great pop single). Just a different approach, and a lighter pallette, where influences are worn more obviously, down to the correct brand of '70s synth. >>The funny thing is it must be Nick Cave who's raking it in now. Who'd have thought it back when he was reckoning a bit too close to this one and hollering hands up who wants to die with fuckin' wings burst out his back? So is Nick Cave pop or is he rock?<< Well, he's had a number 1 single with Kylie Minogue..... BTW, if you haven't heard the new Cave album, be prepared for "Nick Sings!!" shock... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:14:45 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] When One Is Quite Able To Take Off Graeme, << Finally got around to cutting the slack and listening to the original 'Crazy About Love' 12" for the first time since hearing Colin's drastic remix and suddenly it seems very melodic and has a new life to it. The remix has made the original sound better and more vibrant, although I kind of miss Lewis' atonal interjections. But in a way the whole point of the rmix seems to have been to make the melodic aspects more apparent, and Lewis is inverting them all the way through the original. << Colin's remix is based on a live recording of CAL from (I think) the Cochrane Theatre. This version was not the same as the Peel version - I think it just had Colin's vocal part, and was much shorter. Bear in mind how the Peel version was made. Wire jammed the 15 minutes of music, and Colin and Graham wrote the two lyrics in isolation, and recorded them without knowing what the other had done.... >>I guess it was Graham who played the sax on the original? Who was playing the piano? Colin? >> Someone better own up, or else be dispatched to the southern extremities! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:16:57 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] under irish patronage ah the folly of youth! as a younger pup I stole Live At The Witch Trials from the local record store (where I ended up working later - not ironic but certainly worth smirking about) and was totally enthralled with No Christmas For John Quays. Stepping Out was pretty damned good too although I think I liked the UK Subs Live In A Car better (I'm not sure and so I'll have to ask myself and see what I say) By the way, out here on the left coast we thought 999 was pretty hot shit (at least for an album anyway), but in concert they seemed to be poseurs. What gives?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:24:16 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Most subversive single of the Eighties? Graeme, << "Wings" by The Fall (1983, 1860's and the future)<< Technically a B-side, but as a peak of Fall achievement I'll let you off! Craig's finest riff, plus Steve Hanley on backing vocals.... >>This shocking expansion vignette concerns a small alteration of the past which turns time into space. >> It's about what happens if you travel back in time, and make any alteration to the past. You run the risk of erasing part of the future. The descendents of the stupid Sergeant presumably ran the shop selling the flaby wings. >>ends up in the US Civil War where he shoots dead a stupid sergeant under a brick bridge. << I thought it said Ardwick Bridge? >>The stupid sergeant can be seen as a metaphor for obvious direct control. The brick bridge can be read as a metaphor for indirect passive but more pervasive control. We can shoot all inept leaders who always sell us out but can only afford temporary respite from bodily confines.<< Graeme. Take deep breaths ;-) >>Returning to his former time he finds the shop that sold him the wings no longer exists. Let down by the hollow transient promises of capitalism, he sleeps in ditches and hides away from nosy kids while the wings rot and fester under him. Whether the wings were made in distant foreign lands by people forced to live like lab rat sacrifices on the aimless altar of abundance is unclear. But he should have grown his own wings and not relied on dubious cheapo substitutes.<< You'd hide from nosy kids if you had a pair of rotting, festering wings stuck on your back. With no after-sales service available. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:26:30 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] get back in the 6" gold blade draw dear all, what i've heard of the new Cave lp sounds fucking awful. i'm a longtime B.Party/Cave devotee. ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:31:41 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] All I said was Depeche mode....... Miles wrote: Where I differ from Tim is on the "Its not the lyrics at all" score -- I think the lyrics have a lot to do with it! I know I enjoyed hearing "Never Let Me Down Again" -- which is, after all, a man singing about his penis -- all over the radio during the height of the Tipper Gore-PMRC '80s rock censorship crusade. I thought that was about Heroin! "I'm taking a ride with my best friend...we're flying high watching the world pass us by"??? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:38:09 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] metal urbain Ian, << this, i have got to hear! i presume their stuff is hard to get hold of. i old enough to vaguely remember the name but i'm sure i've not heard anything by them. best place to start??????? >> The album is very rare. I just checked Gemm and there are two copies for sale - - one is $44 and the other is $88! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:45:14 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] In Subversive Mode Regarding PIL: Had that record (or any other of PiL's hits) been made by anybody else, they would have been highly-regarded cult pieces of their time (much as Wire singles are). But Johnny Rotten was the singer, hence the records charted. PIL came to LA in 80 (81?) and played in Pasadena. The crowd outside was unruly, we got maced by the cops, they let us in after 2 hours of waiting, PIL made us wait another 45 minutes and when they came out, Johnny spent the entire concert with his back to audience like Miles Davis. Some drunken asshole pogoed off the top of the huge amps and the crowd parted; down he went face first. We danced the rest of the night in the copious pool of blood that flowed from his nose. Later, I heard Johnny describe it as "the worst fucking night of my life" Ahhhh...the memories of youth. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:55:13 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Autechre > I was at the Fridge - not as an autechre fan as such - just liked odd > bits I'd heard and fancied going. Quite liked the support but couldn't > see the point in what Autechre did at all. I can't say anything more > profound because I reacted to by disappointment by drinking large > amounts of lager. I do recall that the crowd reaction at the end was > one of the most muted of any gig I've been to. As a live experience I knew all we were going to get was two rather intense young men prodding at Mac Powerbooks, and from previous experience I knew there would be no attempt to perform already known material, but when I saw them last year they were just magical, and a friend of mine saw them in Iceland last year and was moved to tears by the sheer beauty of their mostly beatless and completely improvised performance. I guess they at both the fridge and the Manchester gig they were trying to please the club-crowd. Certainly they dissapointed me last Friday. I was right next to the stage at Manchester and for what its worth they looked really unhappy at the sound coming from the speakers but failed to do anything about it. I guess thats the trouble with being 'ahead of your time'. They still make brilliant records. They even get a very good review in MOJO this month, something few other bands of their generation/genre could expect. Cosmic music that crosses cultural and generational boundaries with the greatest of ease. . ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #117 *******************************