From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #115 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, April 17 2001 Volume 04 : Number 115 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] cheap Wire cds at half.com ["wiremailorder.com" ] [idealcopy] re: All Tomorrow's Pus-Ridden Pig Sties ["ian jackson" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT - Listening for the week... [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] [idealcopy] OT: "New" John Cale; Band of Susans "Advice" [Michael Flahert] [idealcopy] Re: OT: Eater [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Another the Lister [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] mannequin [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: "New" John Cale ["Stephen Jackson" ] [idealcopy] All I said was Depeche mode....... [Tim Robinson ] Re: [idealcopy] 80's revisited [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] [idealcopy] RIP [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] re: [idealcopy] All Tomorrow's Pus-Ridden Pig Sties [Dr Volume ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:36:19 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: [idealcopy] cheap Wire cds at half.com Check out half.com for really cheap wire cds... Life in the Manscape CDS for $2.00@ c NP: Hoelderlin - Rare Birds ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:42:20 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] 80's revisited Tim wrote A bit overproduced but so was Ideal Copy and A Bell is A cup from the same era...it was the 80s after all. yesterday, i dug out Devoto's 'Rainy Season'...boy has that dated!! did this before seeing more synchronicity on the wirelist, with d.mack making 'jerky versions of the dream' a subject title!!!!! witchey. in a way i wish it was the (mid) 80's again, my lot might have a chance of winning tonight's Merseyside derby!!!!!!!! (i said i'd keep quiet didn't i john?! shit) yours, standing by for stick, ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:13:02 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] re: All Tomorrow's Pus-Ridden Pig Sties Graeme re: All Tomorrow's Pus-Ridden Pig Sties seconded from Jeff with 2 F's, can't really add anything to your mail, but thanks for letting us know about the arrogant bastard who runs it. amazingly, some of us actually knew about '...Trail Of Dead' before the inkies started kissing arse. i actually fancied going this year... considering i'm someone who rarely goes to even local gigs these days. Shellac next year? i wonder how Mr.Hogan will get on with young Stevie? i hereby take back my agreement with Dr.Volume from a while back, reading you is a bit like reading The Wire for me, full of stuff i've never heard of and that i'm unlikely to hear, but entertaining nevertheless!!!!! ian.s.j. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:23:54 -0700 (PDT) From: j alberson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: post-whore Hey all: I'm afraid I've been away a couple of days (family obligations and Easter)... Certainly sounds good to me...perhaps we could host the files at both MP3.com and WMO. Regrettably I've no recordings of my old band doing "Outdoor Miner". We were alright at it. A practice tape exists of "Practise Makes Perfect" but we lose it after "Sarah Bernhard's hand" to some embarrassment. We never quite got it together (which I guess explains why I'm an ex now)... So I guess the order of business is...do we treat it like an album? Do we limit ourselves to one (or two) covers apiece or should we just put up however much we want? Any ideas? Jack - --- "wiremailorder.com" wrote: > >"This is when I wish it were possible to afford to > put > > out a Wire covers cd of my own. I was in a band > that > > used to (try to) do "Practise Makes Perfect" and > > "Outdoor Miner". I'd like to be able to get other > > Idealcopyists to do covers. Wouldn't that be > great?" > > funny this has been proposed to the list a few times > before, including by > yours truly. I'm sure I could host the files on the > wiremailorder site, but > perhaps setting up a MP3.com site would be equally > advantagous. apparantly > however that it must not be that great of an idea! > > charles > > ps> dugga outtakes are available as free mp3 > download (23mb), just look > under the "links" tab for free music > www.wiremailorder.com Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:12:06 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - Listening for the week... In a message dated 13/04/01 22:08:24 GMT Daylight Time, HeySean@aol.com writes: > Metal Urbain: les hommes morts sont dangereux > > Excellent ! Another Metal Urbain enthusiast.I have a couple of singles & the one they released as "The Metal Boys" (I presume).Can you elaborate on this release ? Cheers Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:43:42 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] OT: "New" John Cale; Band of Susans "Advice" I. All I will add to the John Cale info is that this is the box set discussed here earlier this year. It is going to be three single releases ... whenever Table of the Elements can get them out (all release dates should be taken as "target dates"). The last Cale set of songs was called "Walking on Locusts," and I agree that it's not great. Clearly, song writing has not been Cale's main foucus for quite some time. II. I have everything the Band of Susans released. I have to agree with "Wired for Sound" as a starting point, because to me their best material is pretty well spread out, and it's a nice collection. Also, it includes several unreleased tracks, and it's nice having all the instrumentals together. I assume that at the time they released this collection they didn't know they would make only one more album (or they might have waited for a "full career" collection). For me, it's too bad because their last album, ironically titled "Here Comes Success", is my favorite. Some nice long drones and pretty cool lyrics. "The Word and the Flesh" is also well worthwhile. If you prefer rocking to droning (I like both, but w/ B of S prefer drones), then the earlier work, "Peel Sessions", "Hope Against Hope" (their first album and ep on one cd) and Love Agenda are probably better choices. Might as well add they have an ep called "Now" that is OK, and their second to last album is called Veil--I like it fine. One more thing: Hope Against Hope is currently hard to find, and can fetch 20+ dollars US (it was an indy release). "Wired for Sound" is in print, and fetches typical double cd prices, but I got it on EBay for under 5 dollars. All of their other albums are out of print but EASY to find cheap. Try Duffelbag.com--also tend to go low on ebay. So: whatever sellers say, only Hope Against Hope is worth more than say 7 US dollars or so. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:20:55 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: OT: Eater In a message dated 14/04/01 17:46:39 GMT Daylight Time, johnroberts_stats@yahoo.com writes: > For my sins I have never seen the Punk Rock Movie. ///////// i was only slagging the eater bit , not the whole thing ; its got some fabulous footage of almost every great 77 band except wire (wonder if their roxy performance got filmed?). it got released on video a few years back in a censored form (cutting out a scene of keith levine shooting up) and is well worth getting hold of. p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:29:05 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Another the Lister In a message dated 15/04/01 14:52:53 GMT Daylight Time, wireviews@yahoo.com writes: > (see: Erasure, putting > out the same shite for 20-odd years now). > > //////// i thought their last album was supposed to be acoustic? mind you , it stiffed so totally that i never actually heard any of it. maybe that's what you get for changing a "winning" formula. i think everything they did was a hit til "figures in crumbs" so maybe wir killed them off. result. p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:44:22 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] mannequin In a message dated 16/04/01 00:43:35 GMT Daylight Time, iansjackson@hotmail.com writes: > anyone got any idea how much the > 'Mannequin' 7" is going for these days?? > i once saw it at a fair for #10, > ///////// well i look at ebay pretty often and of the 6 EMI singles this is definitely the most pricey , maybe #10-12. and the other 5 maybe #6-8. as an aside , i'm off to sweden next week and the 2nd hand shop there has a copy of "our swimmer" for about #2. anyone want me to get it for them? fairly sure it'll still be there....... p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:30:22 +0100 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: "New" John Cale Talking of Cale: I have 2 of his albums- Guts and Fear, and I think they're ok. Now Bauhaus had a song (on Dark Entries) that was called Rosegarden Funeral of Sores, which apparently was written by a Cale (presumably John).... Can anyone confirm this, and tell me if Cale has his own version somewhere? Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 00:56:45 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] All I said was Depeche mode....... Tim listened to Stereolab - Emporer Tomato Ketchup - Kraftwerk/Wire/Suicide/Serge gainsbourg I have never heard anything by stereolab that warranted comparison to Wire or Suicide!!!! Which Wire tracks does this album remind you of? Some of the more motoring stuff has that Suicide feel, but lighter of course. And Wire, well its just an overall feel. They share some of the spikyness of early Wire, something like Too Late. Cool, European, bright and breezy. Or maybe I was talking cobblers. Some of the sweat from the Rafters at the Autechre gig dropped in my Vodka.....it was probably 50% MDMA And surely the only 80s band who can rival Wire for twisted, subversive pop singles are Depeche Mode? No, no, no, fucking no way don't be so silly and reductionist. Oooooh get you! OK it was a sweeping statement, but I stick by it! I can't believe Im defending 'ver mode here, cos they are a bit crap, but if you blank out the image of the band, the dreadful stadium rock stuff they did in the 90s, and just listen to those great and *strange* singles. Its not the lryics at all, its the weird little melodies....that shouldn't be on the radio! Ever heard?????????? (long list of fairly well known mid 80s alt-rock follows) snip I could say you were being ever so slightly patronising there, and is that a whiff of dusty old rock-snobbery on the breeze? Yes I have heard of all those bands. I even like a couple of em, the 'Yoof are good. If I'm reductionist thats because I haven't the time or the money to listen to as much music as you do. And cos I love pop music and silly techno records and soppy indie bands like Stereolab! But I *was* talking about Pop with a capital P, meaning radio-friendly unit shifter with shiny production values. Argument falls a bit flat cos Wire didn't shift many units, but the intention was there (whether from band or label). Don't want to start a thread about the meaning of Pop (this has been done to death, and usually ends with someone like claiming AMM are better than the Beatles...no don't do it Graeme!) but from what I can see your list is just a long list of full-on rock bands, some of whom had the odd catchy tune but not really Pop. Of course at a certain phase in his career Dave Gahan wanted to be rawk beast and would have loved to be in one of those bands....although the nearest he got was playing harmonica badly with Primal Scream at Reading....and he couldn't even OD properly! .bless! Anyway looks like I got off lightly seeing as after this you gave Barry Hogan a right dusting down....wonder what you would have done to him if you had actually been to his festival?! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:05:59 EDT From: HeySean@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - Listening for the week... The Metal Urbain album I have has got big bold black and red stripes across it. I've had it about 20 years, I guess. It's very good (although, I'm ashamed to admit, it's in French and I don't have the damndest idea what they are singing about! I'm sure it's all the usual angst). Some of the titles are Ghetto, Lady Coca-Cola, Futurama, Miss O.D. and Snuff Movie to name a few. The best song is Pop Poubelle which starts off with a soaring surf guitar solo and then rips into a three-rats-on-guitars riff which, and I don't mind the heat here; I've been listening to both songs for over 20 years, is as good as 12XU (I have no higher praise to give; both tunes leave the you blistered and spent) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:10:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hindman Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: "New" John Cale That song was on "In the Flat Field" CD and is credited to 'Cale'. No first name, but JC is a pretty good guess. I don't have the original single, perhaps that has more info. RJH > Now Bauhaus had a song (on Dark Entries) that > was called Rosegarden > Funeral of Sores, which apparently was written by a > Cale (presumably > John).... Can anyone confirm this, and tell me if > Cale has his own version > somewhere? > Steve. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > They use the head and not the fist. ===== - ----------------------------------------------------------- "Suffering is our experience of the distance between what we are and who we wish to become. - -Robert Fripp - ----------------------------------------------------------- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:30:59 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] 80's revisited In a message dated 4/16/01 10:23:47 PM, iansjackson@hotmail.com writes: << Tim wrote >A bit overproduced but so was Ideal Copy and A Bell is A cup from the >same era...it was the 80s after all. yesterday, i dug out Devoto's 'Rainy Season'...boy has that dated!! >> i listed love & rockets-express as one of the things i've listened to recently. i actually only played side one, was thoroughly dissatisfied with how overproduced it was, and put it away without playing side 2. maybe another time, but i'm not sure. i really like kevin haskins' drumming, but i don't miss the 80s production at all. i listen to a bell is a cup far less than the other albums. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:40:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [idealcopy] RIP Odd that no one here's mentioned it yet, but Joey Ramone died Sunday. In some respects, the Ramones and Wire are at terminal poles opposed, but the Ramones are one of those rare bands without which it's hard to imagine very much of what followed - including the early Wire. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::"In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:08:29 +0100 From: Dr Volume Subject: re: [idealcopy] All Tomorrow's Pus-Ridden Pig Sties Did you actually send this to Barry Hogan? Not sure he was addressing you personally, just people who had written in to say the festival was no good! Mind you, to have two acts cancel and not find replacements is pretty poor, the silence at ATP must have been deafening. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:52:27 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Post Blast Sleepy Core (First Past the Post) Paul>>>>GPS made me curious to go find something by band of susans. They are more song based, I guess the closest thing to GPS could be their 15 min rendition of Rhys Chatham's monochord classic 'Guitar Trio'. As far as Wire comparisons go, this has more in common with tracks like 'Reuters' and 'Pink Flag' and is originally roughly contemporaneous from 1977 I think. Best album is the second one 'Love Agenda' (has the lions share of their most memorable songs and a pre-Helmet Page Hamilton having noisier ideas than any of the guitarists who stepped into his shoes?) but the best of comp 'Wired For Sound' has to be the best starting place... excluding the last album 'here comes success' it has all the best stuff except 'Which Dream Came True?' the storming closer from 'Love Agenda'. I was lucky enough to hear them perform three times and they always guaranteed a rocking time. Best tracks: Veil, Guitar Trio, Which Dream Came True, Hope Against Hope, Tilt, Elizabeth Stride, Its Locked Away, Tourniquet, Birthmark, Thorn in my Side, The Pursuit of Happiness (headcleaning feedbacks)... in fact all of 'Love Agenda'. >>>>what's their version of "too late" like? Its OK but don't bust a gut to hear it. They were certainly paying homage, but for me their cover of 'Ahead' is much better, cheekily done as if Lewis had been singing it. Their cover of Gang Of Four's 'I Found That Essence Rare' lacks the precise angularity of the original. Their only cover which is as poweful as the best of their own material (and which betters the original recording considerably) is 'Guitar Trio'. This is an essential bit of neglected rock history! As for 'Too Late' Yo La Tengo did a much more urgent version that races the original to the finish with some great freeform guitar skree from Ira Kaplan. Funnily enough I was talking to Philip Jeck about Band of Susans at his 'Off The Record' installation in Burnley on Friday. He did a similar installation at the Hayward Gallery Sonic Boom event and had a copy of 'Love Agenda' on one of the 30-40 old turntables. It was setup in a very effective drone loop, the tone arm held in position by a strip of wire. Synchronously, that was on the same Saturday that Wire performed 'Drill' with Susan Stenger guesting on guitar. David>>>>i have trouble with mr jim o'rourke's melodic works of late The best of O'Rourke is the 'Rules of Reduction' 3" (electroacoustic field recordings collaged very skillfully) 'Remove The Need' (guitar drones playing themselves), all his recordings with Gastr Del Sol (especially 'Mirror Repair'. 'Upgrade & Afterlife' and 'Crookt, Crackt or Fly') But his performance for Phill Niblock's 'Hurdy Hurry' on Touch tops the lot! 'Eureka' was quite forgettable - just too sugary. O'Rourke was pretty tedious live, only saved by some skysoaring Heino-like jams with Loren Mazzacane Connors. >>>>zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz similarly stereolab's last few Always found their watered down Can/Neu plagiarism very yawnsome. They always seemed to do these influences a diservice. They were there to shut the door after the horse bolted - Loop & Spacemen 3 already did the krautrock influenced UK indie rock thang with the necessary noise and darkness to give it the catapult it needed. It was a pill that didn't need sugaring. Gimme Tortoise anyday - a serious shuffle!!! >>>>no matter how hard i tried i coould not escape the inevitable conclusion that their music bores me to tears Don't cry! They made the night air sing! The opening track on 'Standards' is one of the least boring bits of music I've ever heard! Up and out and fight the glower with twanging tower! >>>>i was wondoring when the sopophoric effects of 'post-rock' would be appreciated I believe the hack who popularised the silly term 'post rock' was referring to Seefeel and Main, as bands who's once played in guitar, bass and drum set ups but then moved into more computerised or ambient territory. Tortoise then seemed to come along and zeit up the geist and confuse people with misnotions of jazziness. Main recordings would give a lot of folks nightmares perhaps, but not me. What the hell is wrong with drifting off anyway? I can appreciate both the wired up and smashit energy of '12XU', the sinister defacing dinner of 'Indirect Inquiries' and the floating beauty of 'Low Impact'! I don't have the same mood at all times and different musics fit different moods. But I did manage to fall asleep at a Jesus Lizard gig once! No Eno theory in that swampy combo! I came over all dozy to Dial yesterday, which is a very noisy bit of lo-fi drilling drum machine post no wave no-no noiserock from Jacqui Ham (ex-Ut) so I guess moods account for a lot. Having been up till after 4am after an evening of living Autechre (Manchester, so-so dance crowd pleasers never seem to live up to the recordings digital bass also a problem) and Philip Jeck (Burnley, imaginative loop-samplings of Bach and Joe Walsh and a sped up microcassette walkabout and delicious bahjis laid on) might have had something to do with it! And speaking of old Blast First label groups... - -paul c.d. was listening to sonic youth-syr 1 I've been meaning to search out my copy of this for well over a week to give it a listen! Must be about time to tidy up the CD's... as Radio 3 play Boredoms!!!! According to Robert Sandall they're called 'The Boredoms'. What about 'The Sonic Youth'? Me um like band call it 'The Wire' buh-duh! Sounds a bit like 'The XTC' wot wot? Although I think SY releases on Geffen have all been a bit patchy, I highly rate this one and SYR2 (apart from the last track) and most of the 'Goodbye 20th Century' (especially the James Tenney & Pauline Oliveros pieces), and the best Sonic Youth related release in years is Lee Ranaldo's 'Dirty Windows' which is up there with the Blast First albums (Your angels are dead now. "Human pelts for sale get 'em while they still stink!" This is the longest movie I have ever been in. The end of life in America, the sky a hollow tomb). All the Geffen albums are largely worth hearing for the tracks with Ranaldo vox, and the weakest album is that one with no Ranaldo songs and just 'Starfield Rd' to make up for that heinous lack! >>Ian sj listened to Meat Puppets - II Lets hear it for one of the greatest feelgood psych-punkfreakouts ever recorded! It was a slow slide downhill after that but all their albums are quite good, and I really enjoyed them when I got the chance to hear them supporting the dreary Soul Asylum. Curt Kirkwood has the most surreal interview technique I have ever encountered: not one question answered but brilliantly entertaining! >>And Ian was listening to Dubsex - Swerve 12" They recently reformed for a gig in Manchester, but sadly I missed it. Mark & Cathy's 2drummer band Dumb were very good and their 2 CD's are well worth a listen especially if you like the best Dub Sex. There's an interview with Dumb on my website. >>And To Rococo Rot - The Amateur View This is a nice relaxing German synthly trio who are good for the clean flowery moods. A new album is imminent. Scott>>>>How can you say "In A rut" was average. Punk classic Indeed a classic by any musical genre measurifics. Post punk rock slowburn urgency for post heroin come down suicide blues. Gorra gerr owdavit owdavit owdavit! Post it, does it rock? It's The Gift! That Shmuck Waldo (thrashing away relentlessly at an E chord for post Pink Flag monotorocking effect!) ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:27:43 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: "New" John Cale > Talking of Cale: I have 2 of his albums- Guts and Fear, and I > think they're > ok. Now Bauhaus had a song (on Dark Entries) that was called Rosegarden > Funeral of Sores, which apparently was written by a Cale (presumably > John).... Can anyone confirm this, and tell me if Cale has his own version > somewhere? Don'y know in what form it was originally released, but I've got Cale's version of this song on a bootleg. I don't think you can get it through any of the official releases. And it's even better than the Bauhaus version. giluz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #115 *******************************