From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #104 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, April 6 2001 Volume 04 : Number 104 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re: Uh...Mark Prindle sucks dude..... [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] Re: Uh...Mark Prindle sucks dude..... [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] Re: Does anyone still collect cassettes? ["Syarzhuk Kazachenk] [idealcopy] Low; Music for Fruit [Michael Flaherty ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 01:41:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Uh...Mark Prindle sucks dude..... - --- Tim Robinson wrote: > "Just let me know when you want to rub my > wongdiggidydingwing!" So these aren't the words to the remix of In Vivo then? Bugger. I've been had. > Why on earth have Wireviews bothered to add a > link to this tedious drivel? For better or worse, it's a Wire site and we've linked to tedious drivel before. I have to say, having now read through the "reviews" a bit more carefully myself, that it's not likely to stay on the de-facto Wireviews link page for much longer. In fact, about another three minutes. > I know its been a quiet month but are they that > desparate for content? Well, it was a quiet month :-) At least there was something decent in part two of the Edenterview. Final part (and it's a long one, so to speak) next month... and no more Prindle. Promise. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:49:37 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] So, what is Music? (Mostly OT) > >So of course feedback can be very musical (in the praiseworthy sense of > >"music"). But the question I was asking was more philosophical: is it > >necessary that there be *intention* behind sound in order for it to be > >regarded as music? > > Tough question. OK, I'll admit: sometimes I listen hums of electronic > equipment. This probably explains a lot about me. ;) But for me to call > something art or music ... yes, I think there needs to be an act of > creation by an artist. Not necessarily so. Art's defined not only in the creation process but also in the consumption process. It is the interaction of the consumer with the product that (also) defines something as art. Take, for example, a software called 'soundraider' (available at http://www.andyw.com/raider/). This programme scans your hard drive for WAV format sounds and uses them to create industrial-ambient sound. You can have a certain degree of control over it, but you can also just leave it like that and make it play by itself. Some of the results are surprisingly good, and this is definitely music made randomally by a machine. Is the software an artist then? No, of course not, but it is our appreciation of it as art which defines it like that. I'm not saying that anything defined by a consumer as art is a work of art. I just wanted to point out that the relationships between the producer (artist), the product (work of art) and the consumer are much more complicated than it is customary to think. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:56:17 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Uh...Mark Prindle sucks dude..... > --- Tim Robinson wrote: > > "Just let me know when you want to rub my > > wongdiggidydingwing!" > > So these aren't the words to the remix of In Vivo > then? Bugger. I've been had. > > > Why on earth have Wireviews bothered to add a > > link to this tedious drivel? > > For better or worse, it's a Wire site and we've linked > to tedious drivel before. I have to say, having now > read through the "reviews" a bit more carefully > myself, that it's not likely to stay on the de-facto > Wireviews link page for much longer. In fact, about > another three minutes. Why? It's a good laugh. > Well, it was a quiet month :-) At least there was > something decent in part two of the Edenterview. Final > part (and it's a long one, so to speak) next month... > and no more Prindle. Promise. Great - I was hoping there was a third part . The interview with Kevin's really interesting. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:18:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Format wars >>> Is there any format coming down the road >>> that is going to replace cd's? I'm thinking >>> of buying a cd burner since most bootleg >>> traders trade on cdr nowadays. Firstly, you should bear in mind that a good quality CDR is actually cheaper than a good quality chrome tape anyway (about 60p vs #1) and CDRW drives can be picked up for about #150, so it's not a big investment. Secondly, there are a whole shed-load of formats vying for attention, from the various DVDR formats through to the new CD-sized superdisk (can't remember the name) that claims to be rewritable like a HD, with 150Gb per side *and* be backwards-compatible with DVD and CD. Whatever happens, I imagine the next generation media will have players backwards compatible with CD media anyway. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:21:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Uh...Mark Prindle sucks dude..... - --- giluz wrote: > myself, that it's not likely to stay on the > de-facto Wireviews link page for much longer. > In fact, about another three minutes. > > Why? It's a good laugh. The Wireviews links page is meant to be a useful index of the main Wire resources on the Web rather than an exhaustive list. After actually looking at the site, it doesn't really make the cut. However, the link will remain in the news page and therefore will be archived in the WV news archives in the articles section of the site. >> Edenterview. > Great - I was hoping there was a third part . The > interview with Kevin's really interesting. It's very insightful! Thanks to Graeme for doing such a good job and Kevin for being interviewed. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:29:00 -0500 From: "ray\)\(o\)\(mac" Subject: [idealcopy] Re:uzzel > I met chris (watson) at a > conference in SF where he was presenting these recordings. His claim was > that all places register the energy of things and that energy has an > e(a)ffect on that place in the present. sounds similar to conversations i have had *every* time i have visited sf ^_^ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 10:03:04 -0400 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Does anyone still collect cassettes? The Cure's "Standing On A Beach" cassette had the whole side B filled with, you guessed it, rare B-sides and outtakes. The CD version just had more hits which are available everywhere else Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 09:09:46 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Low; Music for Fruit >From: MarkBursa@aol.com >Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT: Killing Joke, King Crimson etc >There is absolutely no way in which Wire could have influence Bowie's Low. >Low charted in the UK in January 1977 (which means it was recorded in 1976), >a month before Wire played their first gig. In fact Bowie had recorded and >released Heroes (October 77) as well before Wire had released a record (apart >from the two Roxy tracks). Pink Flag was released in November 77, preceded by >the Mannequin single earlier in the same month. I might just add that Eno and Fripp were playing in this "style" when Wire were in art school. >From: Tim Robinson >Subject: [idealcopy] Pick of the Pops (OT) >Bruce Gilbert - Music for Fruit >OK this is old but I got this after on-list advice and it really is >splendid. In parts its akin to, but a lot warmer than the Dome stuff. It >was written for a contemporary darnce piece on Channel 4 or something but >don't let that put you off. (Oops I'm starting to sound like Mark Prindle >here). Its actually a fine but all to brief chunk of electronica. This is the great undiscovered Bruce. If you love Ab Ovo and/or This way-Shiv. Man, Music for Fruit is a good bet. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 11:17:02 -0400 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? >Most were done on crap ferric tape and recorded using dolby >(a definite no-no). Can someone elaborate on Dolby? Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 09:26:20 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: RE: [idealcopy] So, what is Music? (Mostly OT) >> something art or music ... yes, I think there needs to be an act of >> creation by an artist. > >Not necessarily so. Art's defined not only in the creation process but also >in the consumption process. True ... It is the interaction of the consumer with the >product that (also) defines something as art. Take, for example, a software >called 'soundraider' (available at http://www.andyw.com/raider/). This >programme scans your hard drive for WAV format sounds and uses them to >create industrial-ambient sound. You can have a certain degree of control >over it, but you can also just leave it like that and make it play by >itself. Some of the results are surprisingly good, and this is definitely >music made randomally by a machine. Is the software an artist then? No, of >course not, but it is our appreciation of it as art which defines it like >that. I'm not saying that anything defined by a consumer as art is a work of >art. I just wanted to point out that the relationships between the producer >(artist), the product (work of art) and the consumer are much more >complicated than it is customary to think. Perhaps the creator of the program is the artist. Eno claims he leaves the room when recording his ambient music. Then he listens to it and picks out sections that interest him. But he still set up the loops. Side note: in the notes for his "Music for Civic Recovery" he says that it would have taken 6000 years for the loops from which the cd is taken to have begun to repeat themselves in exactly the same way. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:55:53 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Fruit Bruce Gilbert - Music for Fruit OK this is old but I got this after on-list advice and it really is splendid. In parts its akin to, but a lot warmer than the Dome stuff. It was written for a contemporary darnce piece on Channel 4 or something but don't let that put you off. (Oops I'm starting to sound like Mark Prindle here). Its actually a fine but all to brief chunk of electronica. If the Aphex Twin released it tommorow everyone would say it was a work of genius. In fact its just a funny little relic from the 80s that maybe only the likes of us Idealcopyists will really listen to. I've listened to it 5 times which is probably 4 more than BCG has! Um, except it was released in 91 I believe... Super Fruit! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:59:23 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Colin's Advantage Concerning recent discussion on the lyrics of 'Advantage in Height' Colin Newman told me this: "It's about Mother Theresa & the "Bombay Colossus". You'll have to ask Graham why. So it's Therese wipe-out (theresa loses) and Two men in white (I don't know why) but you should know that the Bombay Colossus is considerably taller." So it seems there was no such thing as a 'Terraze', but thanks to Eric there is! Will it catch on? Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:25:41 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? > Can someone elaborate on Dolby? > Oh, all right. (^_^) Dolby Laboratories makes a number of noise reduction systems. They are Dolby A, B, C, SR & S. Consumers only have access to Dolby B, C, & S. Most pre-recorded cassettes were done using Dolby B, so that's the noise reduction I'll discuss. Dolby B works as follows. During the record cycle, treble is boosted dynamically as the signal level drops. The lower the signal level, the more treble is added. Conversely, at a certain volume level (usually around 0 dB on your tape deck) there is no treble added. When you play this tape back, by engaging the Dolby B circuit, the treble is cut by the same amount as was boosted, again dependent on signal level. If everything in the record/playback chain is calibrated correctly, then the net effect is the reduction of noise, since noise occurs during the record cycle and is independent of the signal being recorded, with no loss of fidelity. (See these pictures: http://www.weasel-bot.com/dolby/record.jpg http://www.weasel-bot.com/dolby/playback.jpg These are quick sketches - so they're not accurate at all. Frequency is along the y axis, amplitude along the x axis) The reason treble was picked is because our ears are the most sensitive to noise in this frequency area. However, Dolby B systems break down real quickly if 1) the head angles of the record and playback decks don't agree. 2) The Dolby calibration levels aren't the same. 3) The tape is overbiased or underbiased. 4) The EQ is set incorrectly. 5) The tape itself doesn't record the signal accurately. Hence, most pre-recorded cassettes with Dolby B sounded better if you turned the circuit off. And, remember since at 0 dB, there's almost no Dolby effect, and most pop music is highly compressed and loud, it sounds about the same anyway. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 13:09:25 -0400 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: OT-a porky not so prime cut >so i press teh play button and >voila...it's a rolling stones greatest hits cd! >anyone have similar stories? I was in Cirquit City last month and saw Meat Puppets' "Huevos" for sale for $4 or so. Brought it home, opened the packaging, put it into the CD-ROM drive and couldn't understand why the intro goes for more than 3 minutes. Appeared to be something like Vienna Symphonic Orchestra... Do I need to say that they didn't have any Meat Puppets in the store when I got there the next day? Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:49:22 -0400 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] So, what is Music? (Mostly OT) what about birdsong? But the question I was asking was more philosophical: is it > > >necessary that there be *intention* behind sound in order for it to be > > >regarded as music? > > > > Tough question. .... But for me to call > > something art or music ... yes, I think there needs to be an act of > > creation by an artist. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:01:53 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: cats stepping on answering machines In a message dated 4/3/01 7:19:42 PM, jenor@csd.uwm.edu writes: >By "music" I simply mean "that which one approaches as music," >not "that which sounds good, is pleasing, etc." "Music" is one of those >words ("art" is notoriously another) that theoretically ought to be >neutrally descriptive of an endeavor but end up being used as terms of >praise - a usage I disdain. If something's clearly music but you don't >like it, it's bad music (to you) - not not-music. > >So of course feedback can be very musical (in the praiseworthy sense of >"music"). But the question I was asking was more philosophical: is it >necessary that there be *intention* behind sound in order for it to be >regarded as music? If my cat steps on the button and starts up my >answering machine, and it records an hour of ambient sound, one person >might (Cage-like) decide to *listen* to the tape as music - that is, to >hear it for whatever musical qualities it might prove to possess (leaving >"musical qualities" undefined here). Another might say the first person >is >just nuts - that since no one intended the tape to be listened to as >music, it just *isn't* music, regardless of what the first person does. now we're at the doorstep of appropriation. let's say john cage was busy slicing mushrooms in the kitchen. his cat went into the bedroom and stepped on the answering machine, and 20 minutes later while the mushrooms were simmering cage found the tape. if he played the tape and declared it to be a new piece of music, then there ya go. if however he didn't make such a declaration, well perhaps it's just an answering machine tape that a cat recorded. so now it's near the end of the 20th century, i decide tp take an album off the shelf and have a listen. it's the police-synchronicity. listening to their greatest hit i then decide to sample the hook and rap over it. um...i think i justified something i hate as being art or music or something. well, at least i can call it bad art, right? i'll go listen to my fish chewing their dinner now :o) paul c.d. ceci n'est pas une pipe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 00:55:49 -0500 From: JH3 Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Tapes/Blank Cassettes >Is there any format coming down the road that is going to >replace cd's? I'm heavily invested in a new startup company that's hoping to get people to buy into their new "making loud banging noises on large metallic objects while yelling at the top of one's lungs across a crowded room" technology. They're not sure when the first retail units will be sold, but they figure as long as the licensing fees can keep them afloat, what's the hurry? So I guess just keep playing those primitive, lame-o "CD" thingies for the time being. John H. Hedges III, Inc. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #104 *******************************