From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #101 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, April 3 2001 Volume 04 : Number 101 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? ["Wilson, Paul" ] [idealcopy] Wire/Fripp; Television in Chicago [Michael Flaherty ] [idealcopy] Killing Quote [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] [idealcopy] Chris Watson? [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] [idealcopy] Ian Jackson Cabaret Voltaire ["scott kellock" ] Re: [idealcopy] Ian Jackson Cabaret Voltaire ["ian jackson" ] RE: [idealcopy] Advantage in Exile ["Eric Klaver" ] [idealcopy] OT-a porky not so prime cut [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Ex - Cabaret Voltaire [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] Re: Advantage in White? [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] music vs. noise in no-holds-barred tag-team grudge match [Jef] Re: [idealcopy] cassettes [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] (OT)Cassettes and Watson ["Noorda" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? I still have some / buy some cassettes. Why? Well, here's a few examples. "Substance" by New Order, when it first came out, was released on LP (double) and cassette (double). The cassette had ALL the singles and B sides on (the LP only had the A sides). There was a Fall cassette which had loads of extra tracks not included on the vinyl. I think this problem has gone now that things are released on CD. On cassette I've got though, is something I certainly am glad I bought. It's LAMF by the Heartbreakers. When it came out, the LP version of this sounded appalling. I happened to get the cassette version, and the sound was superb. It remains today, the best quality of all the LAMF releases, even better than the remastered CD. Why? I don't know - can only assume a different master tape was used in the first place. I do know that the cassette is much more collectable (as not many were sold), and I've seen it advertised once for #100!!! rezmole ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 05:15:16 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? i suppose there were some good cassette-only releases in the 80's. a couple i can recall were killing joke's "the unperverted pantomime" and the fall "live at aclam hall". must transfer those to a cd sometime. i generally thought the quality of cassettes was garbage , and you ended up with better quality just taping the album on even a modest hi-fi. wonder how they'll last with time? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:24:42 +0100 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? Yes, I got the Live at Acklam Hall tape - it has since been re-released on CD (with a different title). You're right about the quality though. Pre-recorded cassettes were generally bad quality. Most were done on crap ferric tape and recorded using dolby (a definite no-no). They were also duplicated at very high speed. Prerecorded video suffers from the same high-speed duplication. Some companies did their best to make tapes sound decent. Factory releases were pretty good (no dolby and chrome tape). The big mistake made by people using chrome tape though, was to play back the tape with the selector switched to chrome. The bias for chrome tape should be set when RECORDING and not on playback. When playing chrome tapes, the bias should be set to "normal" tapes. I don't tend to use cassette much nowadays (preferring to use RW-CD in a Pioneer CD recorder). But cassettes are great for the car! -----Original Message----- From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com [mailto:PaulRabjohn@aol.com] i suppose there were some good cassette-only releases in the 80's. a couple i can recall were killing joke's "the unperverted pantomime" and the fall "live at aclam hall". must transfer those to a cd sometime. i generally thought the quality of cassettes was garbage , and you ended up with better quality just taping the album on even a modest hi-fi. wonder how they'll last with time? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 06:31:54 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? << Yes, I got the Live at Acklam Hall tape - it has since been re-released on CD (with a different title). >> The legendary Chaos Tape. Taken off the original tape, not just copied from the release (like some Fall reissues) so it's well worth having. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 06:34:43 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? Paul, << i suppose there were some good cassette-only releases in the 80's. a couple i can recall were killing joke's "the unperverted pantomime" and the fall "live at aclam hall". must transfer those to a cd sometime. i generally thought the quality of cassettes was garbage , and you ended up with better quality just taping the album on even a modest hi-fi. wonder how they'll last with time? p >> The one I remember was Faith by the Cure, which had their soundtrack to the Carnage Visors animated film on the other side. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 06:37:26 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? ......i never heard or saw that carnage visors thing. any good? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 06:53:58 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re:4'33'' David, Excellent web site! I love the debate over the two timings! << I stand corrected: http://www.azstarnet.com/~solo/4min33se.htm#3.%20Description%20of%20a for more detail >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:07:04 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Music Gone Sci-Fi Revell did do an album of insect noises. My friend bought this. He doesn't rate it too highly. C "Ian B" on 02/04/2001 22:19:32 To: "A Rich and Comfortable Life with Paper" cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Music Gone Sci-Fi Also (and I don't know because I've never heard it) was Nurse With Wound's 'Insect and Individual Silenced' album made up of magnified insect sounds? Or am I thinking of some recording project by SPK's Graeme Revell? The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 07:11:57 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? Paul, It was an animated film that they used as support on their 1981 Faith tour. Little stop motion robots that looked like they were made out of pots and pans that just walked around. Made by a mate/relative of someone in the band (Simon Gallup's brother possibly?)... Saw them at Birmingham Odeon and Liverpool Empire. Music was 17 secs/Faith Cure sound, instrumental, single piece about 20 minutes long. Pretty good from what I remember - I was a major Cure fan at the time. I may have a copy of it somewhere, copied from an original tape. << ......i never heard or saw that carnage visors thing. any good? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:02:08 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: [idealcopy] Test Pressings I've got a white label of Chairs Missing. This an outside shot but does anyone have any idea why the word FOGELBERE should be written on the cover? I've got all the mute pre release cassettes for everything on mute - but I wouldn't have bought them other than I worked for the Cartel and was given them. I keep meaning to play the Manscape tape cos someone told me that a couple of the tracks were mixed diff on the final version. John - --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > must say test pressings are one of those things i > can't get worked up about. > like cassettes. does anyone collect cassettes? still > wish i'd got that > 8-track though.p Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:23:31 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Wire/Fripp; Television in Chicago >From: george.m.hook@accenture.com >Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT: Killing Joke, King Crimson etc > >Mark: > >It doesn't really surprise me. Fripp segued into the 1980s New Wave >revolution in admirable fashion (the lead guitar on Eno's "Baby's On Fire" >and "Blank Frank") That some Wire fans don't like KC doesn't surprise me either. Some Wire fans don't even like Bruce Gilbert. Still, I would suggest a listen to Fripp/Eno before anyone completely slags off Fripp. Tickets for Television's show at the Metro on May 10 are now on sale through Ticket Master. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 16:35:19 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Wire lyrics??? >graeme wrote :- >Looking at the lyrics on 'The Wire Page' I found the >word 'Terraze' in the song 'Advantage In Height'. >Is this an archaic word? >What is a Terraze? >Could the line in question actually be 'To erase, wipe >out'? weird, i always thought it was about a female assassin called 'Therese Wipeout'!!!, (kind of a Tank Girl character...) yours trivially, ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:43:59 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Killing Quote From 1980 eNMEy Killing Joke interview: "Otherwise, their intentions are vague. "Music has to keep progressing and changing," explains Youth, mindful of the early punk tenets. "Any music that remains stagnant ends up like all the other crap that's been before it. You have to keep going forward, and there's not many bands that do that." Needless to say, despite musical similarities to the likes of Wire, Gang Of Four and PiL, they feel no particular affinity for other bands. "We're all different, y'see ? We're not like all the other bands, all clones who all like each other." Jaz is not in a generous mood." The rest can be found at http://www.the-last-laugh.com Along with news that Jaz Coleman is working on an orchestral score of Doors songs for Nigel Kennedy! Could that be the ultimate kiling joke? Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 16:45:38 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Wire lyrics 2 mark wrote :- ><< "Two men in white"? > I always sang "To men in white"! > Its a tricky one!<< > >I always assumed it said "Do men in white have an advantage in height?" seriously this time..., i always assumed it was 'To the men in white, an advantage in height' but i'm prepared to be proved wrong. ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:51:29 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Chris Watson? Voyteck: >>>>Interestingly, I heard of someone a few years ago > who went into the jungles with a sound sampler to record animal (& > insect?) sounds for a record project. Could be Chris Watson, whose recordings are available on the Touch label. Graham Lewis used part of his as yet unreleased remix of Watson's recordings as the soundtrack for the 'Universal Body' film which was shown at the RFH Brochure bash. Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:53:11 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Ex - Cabaret Voltaire And just forgot to say: Chris Watson was a member of Cabaret Voltaire early on. ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:58:07 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] We Have Joy! Craig said >>>>Pre-Joy Division = Warsaw, which was punkier, but still not really "traditional" punk. I wouldn't lump Joy Division in with punk at all. If anything, their music is more similar to '80s dance music than anything else, albeit with a gloomier stance. Think New Order - technology + more guitars * miserable "someone stole my sandwiches type day". So now the truth behind Ian Curtis' suicide is revealed! Bet it was T. Wilson who ate the sarnies! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:55:07 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Killing Quote The Doors / Nigel Kennedy thing has been and gone. Radio Times has a Day In The Life. This week it's . . . Janice Long and she has a copy of this release on her bed?!?!?!?! C Graeme Rowland on 03/04/2001 16:43:59 To: idealcopy@smoe.org cc: stevieye@hotmail.com (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: Killing Quote From 1980 eNMEy Killing Joke interview: "Otherwise, their intentions are vague. "Music has to keep progressing and changing," explains Youth, mindful of the early punk tenets. "Any music that remains stagnant ends up like all the other crap that's been before it. You have to keep going forward, and there's not many bands that do that." Needless to say, despite musical similarities to the likes of Wire, Gang Of Four and PiL, they feel no particular affinity for other bands. "We're all different, y'see ? We're not like all the other bands, all clones who all like each other." Jaz is not in a generous mood." The rest can be found at http://www.the-last-laugh.com Along with news that Jaz Coleman is working on an orchestral score of Doors songs for Nigel Kennedy! Could that be the ultimate kiling joke? Graeme The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 18:13:48 +0200 From: thierry danet Subject: [idealcopy] interview with hox Hello, I'm thierry danet ; I'm managing a rock radio in France, named RADIO EN CONSTRUCTION (see our play liste at the end of the message). PIAS France ( the record compagny) asked me to interview GRAHAM LEWIS for his HOX project on wednesday the 4th. If anyone around here wants to ask him some questions, i would be please to relay it bye thierry ps : i met some of you, maybe : I was at the garage on june with my brother for the second and the third concert RADIO EN CONSTRUCTION : PLAY LIST (mars 2001) 1 arab strap the red thread pias 2 pan sonic aaltopiiri labels 3 david thomas & 2 pale boys surf's up pias 4 burnt friedman play love songs pias 5 hox it-ness pias 6 sporto kantes act 1 wagram 7 ultra living transgression chronowax 8 turin brakes the optimist lp source 9 magnetic fields 69 love songs pias 10 kings of convenience quiet is the new loud source 11 migala arde poplane 12 gorillaz sampler emi 13 autechre peel session 2 source 14 anywhen the opiates clearspot 15 future pilot aka tiny waves, mighty sea labels 16 magnetophone 4 ad 17 rachid taha made in medina barclay 18 king q4 clapping music 19 frangoiz breut l'origine du monde II labels 20 the experimental pop band the tracksuit trilogy labels 21 substancia 3 compil tripsichord 22 smog neath the puke tree labels 23 kat onoma kat onoma emi 24 drumaax naoe'th & day drumaax 25 johnny cash american iii : solitary man american rec. 26 stephen malkmus labels 27 swell feed labels 28 daft punk discovery virgin 29 interpole fukd id#3 virgin 30 jim white no such place virgin 31 elk city status pop lane 32 frank black & the catholics dog in the sand naive 33 zero 7 pias 34 tortoise standards source 35 bright eyes don't be frightened of turning the page pop lane 36 fizzarum monochrom plural labels 37 labradford fixed::content labels 38 rae & christian sleepwalking pias 39 my vitriol always pias 40 the little rabbits la grande musique universal 41 add n to (x) add insult to injury labels 42 eiffel abricotine labels 43 superflu de nouveau V2 44 regular fries war on a plastic plants v2 45 sibastien tellier l'incroyable viriti source 46 tommy hools popular frequencies + fire east west 47 snow patrol when it's all over we still have to clear up pias 48 cypress hill live at the fillmore columbia 49 bollywood funk 15 funk-fuelled grooves from ... pias 50 bacuzzi flower lodge night & day ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:12:34 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Advantage in White? Mark said: >>>>I always assumed it said "Do men in white have an advantage in height?" Fits the pope vs Bombay colossus theme. Never realised the pope was involved in that story! How does he fit in? Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:21:42 -0700 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Does anyone still collect cassettes? The other classic available only on Cassette is the Replacements... "The Shit Hits the Fan"... and there is also cassette only releases of early demos from Godspeed You Black Emperor and And Also The Trees (anyone has these for sale?). cheers! - -fernando At 05:15 AM 4/3/01 -0400, PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: >i suppose there were some good cassette-only releases in the 80's. a >couple i can recall were killing joke's "the unperverted pantomime" and >the fall "live at aclam hall". must transfer those to a cd sometime. i >generally thought the quality of cassettes was garbage , and you ended up >with better quality just taping the album on even a modest hi-fi. wonder >how they'll last with time? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:41:54 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] 12XU Spasm Anyone interested in Spasm's cover of '12XU' on the 'Whore' compilation should check this out: http://www.geocities.com/fac193/interviews/spybey2.html Lock up your hats! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:19:41 -0500 From: "ray\)\(o\)\(mac" Subject: [idealcopy] Re:sampled life (which btw is a ryuichi sakamoto title) graeme reville did a composition based entireley on insect samples bernie krause's exercises are already discussed chris watson (ex cabs) has 2 (or maybe 3 by now) recordings of unedited animal sounds which are more amazing for the fact that they are not edited ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:20:48 +0100 From: "scott kellock" Subject: [idealcopy] Ian Jackson Cabaret Voltaire Ian, If your after Cabaret Voltaire Check Out The cd "Mix up".70's Album Pure Class. In my opinion they never released anything quite as good.Maybe "Nag Nag Nag" or "Slugging For Jesus". Also Try Clock DVA another under-rated band. Hope you like them. Cheers Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:33:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hindman Subject: [idealcopy] OT - Fwd: Rejected Album Titles Thought this was worth a chuckle or two!! RJH The Top 15 Rejected Album Titles 15> Courtney Love -- "My Sunday School Favorites" 14> Green Day -- "Hey! We Learned a Fourth Chord!" 13> Paul Simon -- "Still Breathing After All These Years" 12> Jimmy Buffett -- "Tired of Selling Driftwood Art to Tourists" 11> The Doobie Brothers -- "What Once Were Vices Now Land Us at Betty Ford for a Month" 10> The Beatles -- "1... More Royalty Check" 9> The Who -- "Forget That 'Hope I Die' Thing, We Were Young and Stupid" 8> Tupac Shakur -- "Blood from a Turnip: Yet Even More Crap I Didn't Think Was Worth Releasing When I Was Alive, Volume 27" 7> Cranberries -- "Excessive Consumption May Cause Painful Urination" 6> Jennifer Lopez -- "Bet You're Not Looking at My Butt Any More" 5> Lynyrd Skynyrd -- "Actually, Most of Us Have Been Dead for Years" 4> Britney Spears -- "They Can't Call You a Pedophile Now That I'm 18!" 3> Metallica -- "Don't Even Think About It, You Pimple-Faced, Napstering Punk! Hey! Come Back Here With Our Songs!" 2> Michael Jackson -- "The White Album" and Topfive.com's Number 1 Rejected Album Title... 1> Yes -- "Oh, God... Yes! Yes!! YES!!!" Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:51:29 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] OT Progressive Math >>From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey >>Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT progressive math >>Someone mentioned John Cage - and he's relevant to this question: what's >>the difference between noise and music? In the Mute cite there's a quote from Bruce Gilbert in which he says he's more interested in the manipulation of sound than music (paraphrase). John Cage may have used math to compose, but his composition have an openness to them that has not traditionally been allowed in classical music. True, Beethoven never intended for his notes to followed as exactly as is current practice, but he didn't just say "you have x amount of time to play the following notes," either. To me, feedback can be, in the right hands, very musical. So my answer to your question is ... I dunno. >Another >>infamous test case is Lou Reed's _Metal Machine Music_. Whether or not you >>think it's music has a lot to do with how you believe it was created (or >>whether you subscribe to Cage's view above). If you think Reed actually >>took time to organize *particular* hunks of feedback to make the record, >>you might acquiesce to its being music, if you think that sculpting or >>directing is essential to music. If you believe that, then you probably >>think it't *not* music if you think Reed just set up a bunch of guitars >>and amps, turned them all all the way up, and pressed "record." Which in itself CAN (I stress the word) be far more creative than playing notes. On a side note, I like MMM, but the only thing really new about it was that it was released on major label by a popular artist. >>On the other hand, from the Cagean perspective, what Reed did or didn't do >>doesn't matter: what matters is what you, as listener, choose to >>categorize the results as. If you want to hear it as music, then it is, >>regardless of what Reed did. Or perhaps one can just appreciate the artist's music w/out catagories. Certainly catagories help us discuss art, but ultimately I don't care if Cage, MMM, Eno/Fripp, 60s Cale, or In Esse are "music" or not, only that they reach me in some way that I find (on various levels) worth while. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 21:34:04 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] cassettes one of the best cassette-only releases surely has to be ACR's 'The Graveyard & The Ballroom'. ruined by its release on CD a few years ago i think! ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 21:59:43 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ian Jackson Cabaret Voltaire scott, i actually have the 12" of '4 hours'! but i must get hold of 'Thirst' again not heard for a long time. ian.s.j. >From: "scott kellock" >To: >Subject: [idealcopy] Ian Jackson Cabaret Voltaire >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:20:48 +0100 > >Ian, >If your after Cabaret Voltaire Check Out The cd "Mix up".70's Album Pure >Class. >In my opinion they never released anything quite as good.Maybe "Nag Nag >Nag" >or "Slugging For Jesus". >Also Try Clock DVA another under-rated band. >Hope you like them. >Cheers Scott _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:12:59 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re:Eno goodies Howard wrote: Another related Eno track is 'King's lead hat' off Before and After Science. Contains my all-time-favourite guitar solo, courtesy of Wobert Fwipp. Covered by Ultravox with Midge Ure... never heard it, curious to know if anyone else here has. ////////////////// It is the bside to the "Passing Strangers" 12" and they give it a good go. It is recorded live and Midge flubs some lyrics. I always thought that Billie Currie treated his synth like eno's from time to time. He also plays a little fiddle on the track. Incidentally, eno used the lyrics from King's Lead Hat on an Eno/Moebius/Roedelius(sp?) track. The vocals are run backwards for the track. I can't remember the name of the song though. Anyone? My favourite Fripp solo on eno is for Baby's on Fire. When I was a teen my mother came into my room once while I was playing it and, worried about my health, exclaimed "That music will drive you nuts!" Now that's Punk! Eric from Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:12:55 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Advantage in Exile Graeme said Looking at the lyrics on 'The Wire Page' I found the word 'Terraze' in the song 'Advantage In Height'. Is this an archaic word? What is a Terraze? Could the line in question actually be 'To erase, wipe out'? ///////////////////// As for "Terraze" being archaic, I couldn't find any reference to it in my compact edition (of the 26 vol) OED (quit the sniggering, I do have one). With all the oblique references to landscape that Wire uses I can only guess that it is a play on words with: terrace terrazzo and as Graeme suggested erase Terrazzo is a kind of concrete floor covering, and terracing, in the landscape sense, is about creating benches or platforms out of hillsides (think of the Incas and the Chinese). The latter, in my mind, is a form of erasure in the palimpsest sense. The hill's slope is still there but has been tampered with by cutting and filling. Eric in Toronto PS having just done my spell check, the first four selections for Terraze happen to be Tease, Terrace, Terrazzo, and (believ it or not) Erase. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:56:10 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] OT-a porky not so prime cut bought a cd a while back, just got around to opening it today. it's shirley collins-fountain of snow. this is a compilation of her works "presented" by current 93, on world serpent (durtro010cd). so, i take out the booklet and there's a nice paragraph about shirley and this release written by david tibet. he thanks the various people involved in the production, including denis at porky. so i press teh play button and voila...it's a rolling stones greatest hits cd! anyone have similar stories? i've heard about this kind of thing, but it's the first time i've encountered it. also thought it was funny that the pressing job was mentioned in the booklet. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:58:31 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ex - Cabaret Voltaire << Chris Watson was a member of Cabaret Voltaire early on. >> Up to and including 2x45...he's on most of the best stuff in fact, mainly playing the Vox Continental! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:02:04 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Advantage in White? Graeme, << Never realised the pope was involved in that story! How does he fit in? >> EGL saw the pope on TV, blessing a Rhino, and he juxtaposed this with a "pub story" about the Bombay colossus. Who would win in a straight fight between the Pope and the Colossus etc....Check out Kevin's book...it's all in there. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:12:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [idealcopy] music vs. noise in no-holds-barred tag-team grudge match On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Michael Flaherty wrote: > >>From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey > >>Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT progressive math > >>Someone mentioned John Cage - and he's relevant to this question: what's > >>the difference between noise and music? > > In the Mute cite there's a quote from Bruce Gilbert in which he says he's > more interested in the manipulation of sound than music (paraphrase). John > Cage may have used math to compose, but his composition have an openness to > them that has not traditionally been allowed in classical music. True, > Beethoven never intended for his notes to followed as exactly as is current > practice, but he didn't just say "you have x amount of time to play the > following notes," either. To me, feedback can be, in the right hands, very > musical. So my answer to your question is ... I dunno. I probably should have been more clear in the distinction I was attempting to make. By "music" I simply mean "that which one approaches as music," not "that which sounds good, is pleasing, etc." "Music" is one of those words ("art" is notoriously another) that theoretically ought to be neutrally descriptive of an endeavor but end up being used as terms of praise - a usage I disdain. If something's clearly music but you don't like it, it's bad music (to you) - not not-music. So of course feedback can be very musical (in the praiseworthy sense of "music"). But the question I was asking was more philosophical: is it necessary that there be *intention* behind sound in order for it to be regarded as music? If my cat steps on the button and starts up my answering machine, and it records an hour of ambient sound, one person might (Cage-like) decide to *listen* to the tape as music - that is, to hear it for whatever musical qualities it might prove to possess (leaving "musical qualities" undefined here). Another might say the first person is just nuts - that since no one intended the tape to be listened to as music, it just *isn't* music, regardless of what the first person does. > >Another > >>infamous test case is Lou Reed's _Metal Machine Music_. Whether or not you > >>think it't *not* music if you think Reed just set up a bunch of guitars > >>and amps, turned them all all the way up, and pressed "record." > > Which in itself CAN (I stress the word) be far more creative than playing > notes. On a side note, I like MMM, but the only thing really new about it > was that it was released on major label by a popular artist. Uh, yeah - but "creativity" and "newness" are two whole other categories. I'm suspicious of the second - particularly when it becomes a directing value in creating music - and the first word might have something to it, but its overuse over the years to describe, uh, damned near everything means it's far too flabby these days to bear any heavy descriptive lifting. > >>On the other hand, from the Cagean perspective, what Reed did or didn't do > >>doesn't matter: what matters is what you, as listener, choose to > >>categorize the results as. If you want to hear it as music, then it is, > >>regardless of what Reed did. > > Or perhaps one can just appreciate the artist's music w/out catagories. In the sense I was using it, "music" isn't a category - it's just a description - and a fairly neutral one at that. Let's put it this way: I'm asking "is _Metal Machine Music_ 'music'?" in the same way I might ask "is the CD of _Metal Machine Music_ reflective of light?" Beyond that, I think Michael's point re the usefulness of both appreciation without categories, but also of categories, is a worthy one. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::As long as I don't sleep, he decided, I won't shave. ::That must mean...as soon as I fall asleep, I'll start shaving! __Thomas Pynchon, VINELAND__ np: Guided by Voices _Isolation Drills_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:17:23 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] cassettes Ian, << one of the best cassette-only releases surely has to be ACR's 'The Graveyard & The Ballroom'. ruined by its release on CD a few years ago i think! >> That was on the poorest quality cassette ever made. You had to clean the heads after about 2 songs. I actually made a back-up copy on a decent tape to listen to! And I was very glad of a CD reissue, though it would have been nice if they'd tried to put it in a little green transparent plastic wallet! Oddly, Creation reissued those ACR albums.... mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 23:45:41 +0200 From: "Noorda" Subject: [idealcopy] (OT)Cassettes and Watson What to say about the first releases on Touch. Travel, Magnetic North, Meridians 1 and 2 with contributions of Gilbert and Lewis etc. From Bruxelles with Love k7 on Crepuscule with the First Dome release I suppose ROIR recordings: Glenn Branca, Neubauten, 8-eyed Spy, etc. all on k7, later rereleased on cd. Industrial rec.: The Throbbing Gristles live concerts, ClockDVA, Cabaret Voltaire all on k7 those days And about Chris Watson, He was also founder member of the Hafler Trio with Andrew McKenzie and Edward Moolenbeek. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:55:54 -0500 From: george.m.hook@accenture.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT: Killing Joke, King Crimson etc Re: Bowie and Wire: I agree with the review of Bowie's Low in the Third Edition of The New Trouser Press Record Guide, as written by John Walker and Ira G. Robbins: "From the grandiosity of Young Americans to the sketchy minimalist slices here, Bowie took heart from intellectual, bare-bones rock bands like Wire and, in turn, helped legitimize and promote such spartan stylings." Pink Flag and Low both came out in 1977, but I'm not sure which record was first (though I'd imagine Bowie probably knew about Wire before they put out the record). Re: Fripp: His guitar solo on "Baby's On Fire" is in my Top Ten list (which includes Zappa's solo on "Burnt Weeny Sandwich," Hendrix on "Machine Gun," Phil Manzanera on all of "801 Live" ...). I thanked Fripp for the solo during one of his signings at a local record store several years ago. He told me that, one day, he was riding around in his car, listening to his radio, when he heard this amazing punky guitar solo blasting from the speakers ... only to realize that it was Robert Fripp on "Baby's On Fire." He may have been pulling my leg. His guitar solo on "Blank Frank" is pretty gorgeous, too. Re: Progressive Rock The term "Progressive Rock" has come to signify strictly ELPYesSpinalTapStonehengeEra (in the U.S., we also had to endure Kansas and Styx) music in some minds, when it was much more complex and diverse than those admittedly bloated specimens. I don't think Krautrock would have existed without Progressive Rock (I mean, it came out in the early 1970s, when prog rock ruled), which could also be a euphemism for Album Rock. That said, more good music came out of that era than people remember, and I'd still rather listen to Yes' "Roundabout" or ELP's "Lucky Man" than NSync, Backstreet Boys, or any and all variations of disco or 1970s commercial pop (yes, including beloved Abba). George This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:45:18 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Unnecessary Punk Theory Gil> >>>>A minimal set of no more than 2-3 chords per song; > > 'Ex Lion Tamer' was not punk. Find one punk band who > actually stuck to that rule! Giluz: >>>>Does it really matter? Does anything really matter? 'We all die!' As that digital punk Alec Empire so eloquently put it... really it all comes down to my interest in the meaning of words and the different things that people understand by them. I think David Mack was right when he said that the meaning of 'punk' is defined by personal context and this is born out by the number of people who want to pin a date on its death. It only dies in the minds that kill it! Gil>>>>I mean, you're right - you certainly caught me out of my depth here, but when I come to think of it, in almost every other artistic genre there are more exceptions to the patterns than people who actually do things 'by the rules'. It doesn't really matter because the rules are part of the punk myth. It's the myth which must be destroyed! Burn the rule book to keep the fire lit behind the eyes! Gil>>>>What people think about something is more important than what actually happened, in the sense that this is what they react to and not the 'real' situation. And if everyone has a different perception, arguably all their actions inspired by a situation could be very different. This could explain the vast diaspora of interesting disobedient art being propagated across the planet and ties in very neatly with the idea of 'punk' as 'no rules'. But you're right too - it doesn't need explaining! The problem occurs when these things are explained. 'Punk' was originally a US slang term for a worthless person of low class, so perhaps what it should really define is music / art / action which exists outside the norms of society (whatever those may be) and this embodies such a huge diversity that the idea must surely be very much alive! Its all about continually pushing boundaries. To confine punk to set of rules is to kill it! Gil> >>>>(rhythm)guitar based music; > > Or noise as some would have it! Gil>>>>Maybe the only rule that trully existed. Then again, Killing Joke saw punk as not rhythmic enough! Gil> >>>>All of these are actually defined relating to > prog-rock > > I don't think The Damned, for example, sat down and > defined themselves in relation to anything. They just > did it! Stooges covers included... > Punk was not entirely reactionary. Certainly more punk > bands (Buzzcocks, Banshees, Warsaw, Slits, etc.) were > inspired by hearing other punk bands (most often the > Pistols) than as a reaction against anything. Boredom > was well documented as a motivator! Defining what they > were against came later. Gil>>>>Where did the boredom come from then? It wasn't like the music scene of the mid-70's was fascinating and interesting. I know that lots of the reasons for the boredom were political-social, and weren't directly related to music, but most of these people wanted to make music, not paint or write novels. Later on, Richard Hell's novel 'Go Now' was a good read. http://www.richardhell.com >>>>So they might have defined what they were against later, but they just put to words what they already did musically. They didn't operate in a vaccum. Stagnation and complacency are what punk opposed in general. True, Johnny Rotten wore a defaced Pink Floyd T-shirt, but that didn't stop Colin Newman checking out Syd Barrett when Wire got compared to Pink Floyd! It wasn't obligatory to hate Pink Floyd, or even Yes (Keith Levene was a big Yes fan it transpires). But in general prog was making technique and prowess obligatory for rock music, >>>>Maybe you think that when I was talking about rules, I was referring to some manifesto or an oral set of codes being secretly transferred from band to band in the murky depths of the marqee (naff pun not intentional, sorry). I was just trying to organise in words an unconscious attitude shared by punk musicians. I guess you all agree that there was something common to all those bands. All the bands that I would call 'punk' have just one thing in common really: individuality. This is why the majority of the bands that I'd consider truly punk would not think of themselves as such! Why box yourself in? Certainly most bands would rather be performing than discussing genres or semantics! Gil>>>>Does it amount to just the 'anything goes' attitude or was there anything more concrete? Yes. Self empowerment certainly comes into it in a big way. > To me, this stuff isn't punk. I guess this is our > fundamental disagreement. Style over content was > always a bore! Gil>>>>I don't think it's punk either - but the fact that it has stylistical similarities to punk forces the 'true' punk to go look for different styles. You can't have a 'real' punk band doing Green Day stuff - right? The question of musical style is still not something I see as all that important to the punk idea - many would disagree of course. Witness the comedy of the Exploited, Cockney Rejects, etc. > Gil> >>>>Corporations had to ignore the ideological aspect > of punk because it > was so threatening, and accept the genristic aspect of > it 'cause it sold so > well. > > I don't think those in slow dinosaur corporations > think so deeply about punk that they'd even realise > there was an idea! Hence the Pistols getting EMI and > A&M so confused they paid them to go away! Harvest > didn't seem interested in Wire's artistic ideas - here > come the weirdos, give 'em some money and they'll go > away. Wire sold so well they got dropped! >>>>That's what always happens with record companies: The first phase of a new style/genre is always the best and only time where completely uncommercial artists could be signed to major record companies. These days the multinational owned record companies seem so confused that they wouldn't know a new style or genre if it planted a bomb in the A&R office waste paper basket! >>>>They're signed not because the record executives think they're good or understand their music. It's a hype thing and this company should have several artists operating in this genre. Very fast, they realise the extent of the mistake they did and get rid of those uncommercial artists. Another phase usually happens years later, when you have record executives who actually used to be fans of that same (now changed without recognition if not dead) genre: That's when the real cooptation happens, when record companies sign artists and label and market them as 'punk' for example, in the case of Green Day. > I agree that Cutler's 'File Under Popular' presented > an interesting perspective, but it was also highly > personal and too reductionist (after all, no one can > listen to everything). One always has to remember that > Cutler abhors repetition in music, which rather limits > the appeal of anything sticking to the 'punk rock > musical genre' rules. Cutler saw punk as a glitch with > little relevance to progression in music and I think > this is partly because he failed to entertain it as an > idea as opposed to a genre. >>>>Cutler said lots of nonsense, but it's always interesting nonsense. My favourite kind of writer! >>>>In the 80's for example, he prophesised that the upcoming digital revolution is gonna isolate the musicians and turn music from being a collective experience into an individual narcisistic experience. I'm not saying that some of this never happened, but electronic artists do have the need to collaborate with others and to perform in front of audiences. Music and the way we make it are too basic and too primal to our social existence to change so drastically just because of technology. Predictions like that are always going to generalise and end up only telling part of the story, as you say. The rhizomatic theory of Gilles Deleuze seems a better description of what is actually happening today: a vast number of different approaches to outsider art proliferating across the earth and constantly intersecting and racing off too quick for any of the cultural pundits to keep up! Jim O'Rourke is a good example of a musician who straddles many different ways of playing. He might have had a track on the 'Isolationism' compilation but he's very gregarious in his collaborations. Cutler glimpsed a fragment of the future, just one aspect of a reality unfolding and not the whole picture. Thanks for the discussion! Scratching our names on the walls of the cave? Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #101 *******************************