From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #97 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, March 31 2001 Volume 04 : Number 097 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] OT Ooops! Chameleons! [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] Re:Eno goodies [Howard Spencer ] [idealcopy] Re:Punk Was Dead (Again) ["dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] Re:Eno goodies >If any Wire fans out there haven't heard Eno's 'Taking Tiger Mountain' >(particularly 'Third Uncle'), go out of your way to hear it... Agreed, it is bloody marvellous. There is a Bauhaus cover - never liked them, but this is OK, good for pogo-ing/slam dancing - prob helps that they didn't write it. Another related Eno track is 'King's lead hat' off Before and After Science. Contains my all-time-favourite guitar solo, courtesy of Wobert Fwipp. Covered by Ultravox with Midge Ure... never heard it, curious to know if anyone else here has. RE popstars - I've thought more than onece about getting rid of my telly, but it was worth the license fee to see the `hit me baby... one more .. ti-iii-iiiii-mmme' incident. Thanks to whoever flagged can's appearance on TOTP 2 - alongside Human League, Wah and Lynsey de Paul! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:41:00 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] Re:Punk Was Dead (Again) > I meant punk in the broader sense of the word, i.e. the punk attitude and > most of the things it's led to - there certainly is a straight line going > from punk to new wave and the alternative/indie scene of the 1980's. And > when I said it died I meant that the music industry has finally managed to > sink its sharp teeth in it and turn it into an integral part of its > money-making machine. but capitalism was there from the start viv westwood and malcolm maclaren were into the fashion not the politics grafitti to be packaged and sold to the wealthy disenfranchised and grunge just made flannel more expensive in truth the music is the main thing that and the independent d-i-y ethic all of which is continually present and refuses to die none of this is particularly new or old or dead it is all a matter of your personal context mine is that 'movements' such as punk or rave are most often actually dead before the media recognizes their existance in my 20s i was part of a 'scene' of sorts, went to new-wave clubs, hung out, didn't dye my hair or wear much make-up, but most of my friends did. i tend to look at that scene more in the context of a period in my life, than a movement the truly important thing (IMHO) is to be more concerned with actions and content than labels and pigeonholing some thought that nirvana were 'punk' 'cause of cobain's attitude and aggression, i thought they had too many chords and structure whatever, they were/ARE great songs, and kc was an important, tragic hero precisely for his weaknesses which he celibrated until they killed him not a role model - but a truly honest strong/weak artist in the mean time, i saw 3 kids hangin' on the corner in Wicker Park (chicago) yesterday who were in appearance and behaviour as punk as they would have been 25 years ago only problem is that it makes as much to me as james dean in the 80s i kinda feel the same way looking at teen goths these days ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:09:39 -0600 (CST) From: "BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 Fs" Subject: [idealcopy] progressive math On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, Rick Hindman wrote: > > >>>>Attempts to make music based on mathematical > > equations exist in modern classical music, and is > > basically one of the main reasons why people don't > > write good classical stuff anymore. > > On a somewhat related note...while in college, I took > 2 years worth of music composition classes and one of > the prevailing themes in classical music up until the > romantic era was that chord progressions followed very > mathematical patterns. How exactly are common chord progressions "mathematical"? I suppose you could start arguing from the physical properties of sound, with octaves being created by doubling the frequency and a fifth being 1.5 times the frequency - but it's doubtful whether those physical facts were an influence on what made chord progressions work (except, perhaps, in the sense that concord might bear some relation to neat mathematical equations, while discord leads to more complex...but I doubt it). I'd be curious what your instructors were referring to. Re prog: I think in order to really understand it, and praise or criticize it accurately, you need to do two things: know the musical and cultural context it came from (okay, not too unpleasant, really - a bit of research, but painless...) and two, listen to a lot of it, with fresh ears, to recognize that (to take two common examples) ELP has very little in common with Yes (long songs, odd time signatures, lame-ass lyrics - but that's about it). And yeah, that listening part probably strikes many of you as painful. It's one thing to say "every note I've ever heard by ELP sucks - I don't want to listen to it' and another to say "every note by ELP sucks - I don't want to listen to anything called 'prog'." The one sort of makes sense; the other is kind of ignorant and imagines that just because everyone calls something a name, it must be so. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::To be the center of the universe, don't orbit things:: __Scott Miller__ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:16:18 +0200 From: thierry danet Subject: [idealcopy] interview with hox Hello, I'm thierry danet ; I'm managing a rock radio in France, named RADIO EN CONSTRUCTION (see our play liste at the end of the message). PIAS France ( the record compagny) asked me to interview GRAHAM LEWIS for his HOX project on wednesday the 4th. If anyone around here wants to ask him some questions, i would be please to relay it bye thierry ps : i met some of you, maybe : I was at the garage on june with my brother for the second and the third concert RADIO EN CONSTRUCTION : PLAY LIST (mars 2001) 1 arab strap the red thread pias 2 pan sonic aaltopiiri labels 3 david thomas & 2 pale boys surf's up pias 4 burnt friedman play love songs pias 5 hox it-ness pias 6 sporto kantes act 1 wagram 7 ultra living transgression chronowax 8 turin brakes the optimist lp source 9 magnetic fields 69 love songs pias 10 kings of convenience quiet is the new loud source 11 migala arde poplane 12 gorillaz sampler emi 13 autechre peel session 2 source 14 anywhen the opiates clearspot 15 future pilot aka tiny waves, mighty sea labels 16 magnetophone 4 ad 17 rachid taha made in medina barclay 18 king q4 clapping music 19 frangoiz breut l'origine du monde II labels 20 the experimental pop band the tracksuit trilogy labels 21 substancia 3 compil tripsichord 22 smog neath the puke tree labels 23 kat onoma kat onoma emi 24 drumaax naoe'th & day drumaax 25 johnny cash american iii : solitary man american rec. 26 stephen malkmus labels 27 swell feed labels 28 daft punk discovery virgin 29 interpole fukd id#3 virgin 30 jim white no such place virgin 31 elk city status pop lane 32 frank black & the catholics dog in the sand naive 33 zero 7 pias 34 tortoise standards source 35 bright eyes don't be frightened of turning the page pop lane 36 fizzarum monochrom plural labels 37 labradford fixed::content labels 38 rae & christian sleepwalking pias 39 my vitriol always pias 40 the little rabbits la grande musique universal 41 add n to (x) add insult to injury labels 42 eiffel abricotine labels 43 superflu de nouveau V2 44 regular fries war on a plastic plants v2 45 sibastien tellier l'incroyable viriti source 46 tommy hools popular frequencies + fire east west 47 snow patrol when it's all over we still have to clear up pias 48 cypress hill live at the fillmore columbia 49 bollywood funk 15 funk-fuelled grooves from ... pias 50 bacuzzi flower lodge night & day ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:37:27 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] (Ot)eno goodies >howard wrote >Another related Eno track is 'King's lead hat' off Before and After >Science. 'King's lead hat' is an anagram of 'Talking Heads' apparently, yours pointlessly, A ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:30:32 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] eno/wire ian j writes... If any Wire fans out there haven't heard Eno's 'Taking Tiger Mountain' (particularly 'Third Uncle'), go out of your way to hear it... agreed, and going a bit further how about the parallels between eno & wire's first 3 albums...? 'here come the warm jets' radical energy (pink flag) 'taking tiger mountain' a progression from #1, more space etc. (chairs) 'another green world' imho a near perfect realisation of progressive contemporary music (154) just a thought... A ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:45:08 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Prunk Tony Conrad is quoted thus in the current issue of 'The Wire': "History is like music, completely in the present." George said >>>>PIL of Metal Box era was obviously in touch with Can and other Krautrock groups, as well as Fred Frith and Henry Cow. Lets not forget that Frith played bass in John Zorn's Naked City who must be one of the most musically proficient hardcore punk groups to ever spit the seconds. >>>>Henry Cow A big shout out to homeboy Tim Hodgkinson! His recent 'Sang' album is a fine work and his collaboration with Ossatura 'Dentro' is a stunningly dense electroacoustic improv clatter! He had a live set with Thomas Lehn and Roger Turner (called Konk Pack because they all have big noses) broadcast by Radio 3 recently which was a masterful piece of detailed improvised chaos. Not heard much Henry Cow as yet. I'd also highly recommend exCow drummist Chris Cutler's live recording with electronic drone wizz Thomas Dimuzio, 'Quake' - Neubauten-esque improvised freedom on Recommended. All this stuff is way more 'punk' or 'alternative' to me than stadium snoozers Radiohead, Green Day, etc... But I think that comment would make Mr Cutler gag! He wrote a book on pop which had a rather interesting take on punk... setting it in the context of Sun Ra, the Residents, Henry Cow, early Pink Floyd. I think some on the list might see more sense in fitting Wire in here than with any recognised punk lot. I would argue that Wire don't really fit in anywhere, but change was obviously in the air in the late seventies. So many great un-UK rock bands articulated revelatory visions of apocalypse, doom and devestation (Wire, This Heat, The Fall, PiL, Joy Division, Magazine, Killing Joke, The Pop Group, Gang of Four, Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle being the major players). All these bands were rapidly progressing away from the staid and stultifying attempts by tastemakers to write a punk rock rulebook (Know Your Enemy: Malcolm McClaren). Perhaps this is a reason why their music still sounds as fresh and exciting and plain liberating as those days living in the eighties when I had to struggle to hear it! George said >>>>punk rock finished its 3-4 year run Punk is still with us. Its just that lots of people swallowed the corporate media line that it died and defined it as a genre rather than an idea. Fair enough if it failed to spark any interest in you by the early eighties, but don't assume that because you didn't hear about it that it went away meekly. Punk has been very good at shedding its skin. There is always a new generation of mischeivous rejects taking up that baton. Could The Stooges be considered punk? Are Fugazi and Nomeansno punk or prog? What the heck do Melt Banana think they're playing at? What is all that V/Vm butchery in aid of? What is Digital Hardcore and No U-Turn really? How old are the stars really? I want to break the things that seek to control! Just want to get on the outside! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 16:06:29 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] interview with hox hi thierry, hope you have a great interview! i'd like to ask graham a two-part question, "what are two words that when heard together sound exciting?" and "what are two words that when heard together sound pacifying?" thanks, paul c.d. In a message dated 3/30/01 12:25:05 PM, thierry@radioenconstruction.com writes: >PIAS France ( the record compagny) asked me to interview GRAHAM LEWIS for > >his HOX project on wednesday the 4th. > >If anyone around here wants to ask him some questions, i would be please >to > >relay it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:10:45 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: [idealcopy] Posteverything advice wanted... I have recently been in contact with the Swim/Posteverything folks about trying to buy copies of "...Brochure" and "..Third Day". And am having some trouble with how to do it. The snag is living in the US without credit cards. Have any of the US Copyists been able to buy CD's from pinkflag.com with checks or MO's? If so, what is the best approach to this sort of transaction? Thanks, RJH ===== - ----------------------------------------------------------- "Learn to handle hot things, keep your knives sharp, and above all, have a good time. - -Julia Child - ----------------------------------------------------------- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 01:31:59 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] Early Cabaret Voltaire (OT mostly) I'm trying to get my head around early Cabs stuff. I got into them through an excellent LP they did in the 90s called The Conversation (no vocals although Mal is credited....mind you Give Peace a Chance had Lennon/McCartney credit too!) and Richard H Kirks excellent solo Lps on Warp (would suit any Autechre fans especially the first one) but of their early early stuff I've only really heard 'The Living Legends' which is intruiging enough to want to hear more. Radical departures seem to be their thing! Some of it is very like Dome...in fact Burnt to the Ground is a dead ringer for 'To Walk to Run' off Dome4. Wonder if there was any mutual appreciation? Can anyone recommend a route around their early back-catalogue when they were on Rough Trade. Theres lots of it and I'm not sure where to begin....or should I just not go there? p.s. re: Fall Kareoke: I've heard Graemes Mark.E.Smith impression which makes a mockery of my own feeble attempts! He even effects that close-miked vocal distortion with cupped hands! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:07:23 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Early Cabaret Voltaire (OT mostly) Tim, << Can anyone recommend a route around their early back-catalogue when they were on Rough Trade. Theres lots of it and I'm not sure where to begin....or should I just not go there? >> Oh, you should very definitely go there! A truly fantastic band. My personal favourite of their early albums is Red Mecca, which is as good a place as any to start. RM is the 3rd album, and a bridge between the early lo-fi experimental stuff (Mix-Up and Voice of America) and the more commercial early 80s stuff. 2x45, the last Rough Trade studio album, is a cracker too. They signed to Virgin after that and recorded Crackdown, which had a much bigger sound but is none the worse for it. Early versions came witha free 12 inch that is also essential. After that they bcome more and more electronics-driven (remember the Cabs weren't a "synth" band - they used treated guitars,organs and basses together with a lot of tapes - in that respect they are similar to Dome). Micro-phonies and The Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord are ever-decreasing circles for me - better technology and equipment didn't necessarily make for a more interesting band. But as proto-techno those two albums are interetsing, and well ahead of their time. There are heaps of other recordings - several live albums (Lyceum '79, The Pressure Company, Hai!) and a film score (Johnny YesNo) all of which have their moments. Most of the singles and odd tracks are collected on a couple of compilations..one is a double CD which is excellent and collects stuff lke flexidiscs given away wth Dutch magazines and so on... Most of the stuff is on CD - I've seen Cabs vinyl pretty cheap too. Enjoy! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 03:15:31 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] A Certain Black Heartbeat/Stoppit and TidyupI' I never knew about that cover version. Just dowloaded it off Napster and its splendid. Downloaded their version of The Model for fun as well and thats splendid as well. I don't have any BB records. I got Shellacs last LP cos I liked the box but I was dissapointed, but I think I might like BB better ( I remember hearing them on Meltdown on BBC Radio Manchester when I was a teenager...remember that one Graeme?). Anyone care to recommend a great albini/BB record for starters? I'm going record shopping tommorow afternoon in case anyone hasn't already guessed! From: "ian jackson" chriswire wrote :- A Certain Ratio -Sextet LP still one of the truly great Factory releases, kills me every time i put it on, sends me right back to a certain time and place (excuse the non-pun). I used to love ACR and I used to go and see them a lot around 88-92 when they were getting over being dropped by A&M records and trying to be a sort of Latino 808 State...ACR:MCR was the record of the time...pretty good actually.. I like their early stuff too. However Sextet to my ears is just a really strange record. It looks fantastic and some of it is completely brilliant, but Martha Tilsons tone-deaf wailing ruins several otherwise storming tracks. I prefer I'd Like to See You Again...a great example of mostly white men (apart from Donald Johnson of couse) trying to make black music and failing brilliantly! They were one of the most unlucky bands ever weren't they! They could have been the next New Order but they wanted to be Funkadelic and failed....then when Madchester came along the were trying to be The Lighthouse Family! Where are they now? And one last thing, we preceded our last gig with a homage to The Orb which included a sample of the theme music from Stoppit and Tidyup (UK kids TV show voiced overed by Terry Wogan) and I'd forgotten one of the characters was called GotoBed! And the theme music sounds like Dome! - -------------------------------------------------------------------- www.kidsindestructible.com www.gooom.com - -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:35:41 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: [OT] That's Albini for you... (was Re: [idealcopy] A Certain Black Heartbeat/Stoppit and TidyupI') >I don't have any BB records. I got Shellacs last LP cos I liked the box>but I was dissapointed, but I think I might like BB better ( I remember >hearing them on Meltdown on BBC Radio Manchester when I was a >teenager...remember that one Graeme?). Anyone care to recommend a great>albini/BB record for starters? I actually don't have much Big Black, but I think the Hammer Party is pretty essential. (I have that one. (^_^)). Also, the Pigpile video is pretty groovy if you can find it. (I have that too.) My copy of Pigpile came with a 3" vinyl single of Big Black covering "In My House" by the Mary Jane Girls (Rick James female spin-off band) which is very funny. As for Shellac, their first album, "At Action Park" is essential. Their 2nd album is problematic, and the third, which is the one you bought, is only O.K. (Those are my opinions, of course. Your actual mileage may vary.) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #97 ******************************