From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #96 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, March 30 2001 Volume 04 : Number 096 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Fall Karaoke ["ian jackson" ] RE: [idealcopy]OT: Killing Joke, King Crimson etc ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] Killing Joke [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy]OT: Killing Joke, King Crimson etc ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] This week Graeme has been mostly eating.....(OT) [Dr Volume <] Re: [idealcopy] This week Graeme has been mostly eating.....(OT) [Paul Pi] Re: [idealcopy] This week Graeme has been mostly eating.....(OT) [Miles G] [idealcopy] OT Ooops! Chameleons! [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:12:19 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fall Karaoke graeme wrote :- >I did it at a Prolapse gig once and three of them >accompanied me on an impromptu rendition of 'Eat >Y'self fitter!' oh don't get me started on Prolapse, musically fine, but what a bunch of fucking failed drama students they are (personal experience). welcome to the Vitamin B glandular show. ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:21:21 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy]OT: Killing Joke, King Crimson etc > album--and Wire was a major influence on the "Low-Heroes-Lodger" trilogy. Really? Is this info based on anything concrete or is it just an assumption? > The repulsion against prog rock is neat, neat, neat, but ill informed. Of > course, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Topographical Oceans Yes, and > other Spinal > Tapian groups had to be destroyed ... but once punk rock finished its 3-4 > year run, the new wave groups turned to more "in tune" prog rocks groups > for influence; for example, PIL of Metal Box era was obviously in touch > with Can and other Krautrock groups, as well as Fred Frith and Henry Cow. Krautrock wasn't at all about prog rock, unless you're referring to the space rock bands such as Amon Duul. To call Krautrock prog rock is like saying Eno's albums were prog rock just because they were released in the 70's. As for Henry Cow - they were too experimental, and drew from influences far more diverse than the typical prog rock bands. King Crimson were far closer to conventional prog rock, but they were just very good at it and they kept changing all the time. The problems with prog rock weren't necessarily about musical style. They were more about being big beyond any reasonable proportion, like having your tour crew populate 10 busses, being pathetically pretentious, and basically just making naff music, regardless of style. KC were definitely prog rock, despite Fripp's solo ventures and guest appearances. They were just a good prog rock band - rare but true. cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:31:29 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] the best music Davis, How about old white blokes trying NOT to imitate black music? Mark << actually, the best music is done by japanese kids failing miserably at imitating french kids failing dismally at ripping off black artists the same way american and british kids do > The best music is done by white kids failing miserably to immitate black > artists!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:16:30 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Heartbeat (Boom Doom Boom Doom) Discussing Big Black's cover of Wire's 'Heartbeat', Ian Jackson said >>>>I agree with Ian Grant's comments on this subject. having said that, there was probably no other way of doing the cover version There ought to be as many ways of approaching a cover as there are groups of musicians who can be bothered. Wire redid 'Heartbeat' for the Garage UK gigs May 2000. They effectively covered it themselves, and it really became as much a different song as Big Black's version. The 2000 versions of many of the songs left in their set by the US tour could be viewed this way. Colin said that when approaching the retrospective phase, Wire had to rely on having someone who could teach the others how a song went! So the songs were bound to morph. Mostly a streamlining seemed to occur. In the Big Black version, Steve Albini sings, "Like a movie". I wonder if this was a mishearing or if he did it intentionally as a pun on the fact that so many old movies are remade into drastically inferior versions. An example of this being 'Nosferatu', the original version of which Faust rescored recently. But vampires have no heartbeat. If Steve really thought the cover was like a movie remake it would be quite ironic, considering the Big Black version holds up so well. It is actually one of their most angst ridden songs, which makes a big contrast with the restraint of the more mature, reflective and icey Wire original. Colin sounded resigned and doomed, whereas Steve sounded like he was fighting all the way. Wire's 2000 reworking was the most emotive and poignant piece of music I've ever heard them play. It's behind me! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:43:28 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT: Killing Joke, King Crimson etc George, << It doesn't really surprise me. Fripp segued into the 1980s New Wave revolution in admirable fashion (the lead guitar on Eno's "Baby's On Fire" and "Blank Frank")<< No problem with that. It's not really Fripp's guitar playing that I have a problem with. >> and he figured prominently on Bowie's "Heroes" album--and Wire was a major influence on the "Low-Heroes-Lodger" trilogy.<< Other way round, shurely! >> The repulsion against prog rock is neat, neat, neat, but ill informed. Of course, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Topographical Oceans Yes, and other Spinal Tapian groups had to be destroyed ... but once punk rock finished its 3-4 year run, the new wave groups turned to more "in tune" prog rocks groups for influence; for example, PIL of Metal Box era was obviously in touch with Can and other Krautrock groups, as well as Fred Frith and Henry Cow.<< Don't confuse progressive music with Prog Rockwithacapitalpee. You'd be hard-pushed to find more progressive music in the early 70s than Krautrock, but it has sod all to do with Prog of the Yes, ELP and King Crimson variety. Krautrock at its best is driven by solid, unchanging rhythms, atonal playing and lots of improvisation. Prog Rock is over-complicated, laden with classical pretentions, has the worst lyrrical content of any music ever made, relies on flash musicianship and an unhealthy grasp of technique. It sounds vile. Always has to my ears. >> As you fought the punk rock wars, I have been waging a campaign for reappraisal of the more progressive prog rock groups. >> You and Mojo magazine, judging by their March issue.... progressive yes. Prog no. If you're sick of fancy music-ah! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:19:17 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] More Disobedience > Late June - Early July 2001 > > The Whitechapel is working closely with Mute Records to create an exhilarating and challenging programme of contemporary art, music and dance. > Collaborators include renowned choreographer and dancer Michael Clark, artist Cerith Wyn Evans teamed with Wire, Finnish band Panasonic working with Carsten Nicolai, and many others. According to 'The Wire' Coil will also be playing at the Whitechapel Disobeys. What a fantastic line up! I guess they couldn't afford Underworld and Morrissey. Anyone notice the similarity between the new logo of 'The Wire' and a certain band with a similar name? You want to avoid the inevitable! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:09:30 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #92 chriswire wrote :- > A Certain Ratio -Sextet LP still one of the truly great Factory releases, kills me every time i put it on, sends me right back to a certain time and place (excuse the non-pun). > The Pirates -Skull Wars LP oh man, the live A-side of 'Out Of Their Skulls' (previous lp to the above) is one of my all time favourite recordings. Pure power and energy. As a matter of interest, and this is directly from the horse's mouth..., Mick Green did not play the guitar riff to 'Shakin' All Over' on the original recording, (can't remember who did though...session man maybe, i dunno). Saw them live at the time and there was a massive fight at the front of the crowd between the 'old' fans and the punks who decided they were so great they deserved to be covered in spit. unsurprisingly, the old fans, most of whom were twice as big and twice as wide, did not like it! >Mogwai - Xmas steps (people this CDS is absolutely top quality) er, seconded. ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:13:16 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Big Black's Heartbeat(Live Video) just for the record, and those of you who don't know, the video is called 'Pig Pile'. ian.s.j. >From: Creatured you guys should watch Big Black video (7/24/87 London) then >you can see >Big Black with Grahm & Lewis doing Heartbeat. Then ya can bitch about >that not being perfect or maybe it's better than perfect;) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:30:49 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Niblock in relation to Wire Why might Niblock interest a Wire fan? Phill Niblock's double CD 'A Young Person's Guide to Phill Niblock' was issued by Blast First. Paul Smith runs Blast First and now manages Wire. Bruce Gilbert mixed some of these Niblock droneworks at Disobey and did a pretty darn gobsmacking bit of Blast First back catalogue mixing called 'Swarm 1' for the 'Deconstruct' compilation which relied heavily on Niblock's CD's. Susan Stenger has performed with both Gilbert and Niblock. Bass with Bruce, flute with Phill (a neatly alliterative combination). Niblock performed at Disobey with Susan Stenger on flute. The Beekeeper was in the Garage! Robert Poss also played with Bruce and Susan in gilbertpossstenger for two nights at Disobey. He now runs a studio in New York, where he recorded Jim O'Rourke's hurdy gurdy for the new Phill Niblock piece 'Hurdy Hurry'. This supremely mind altering piece of music can be heard on the new Phill Niblock CD 'Touch Works, for Hurdy Gurdy and Voice'. Review here http://brainwashed.com/brain/ Niblock biography here http://www.touch.demon.co.uk/Biographies/phillniblock.html This message has been a bit sensible so far... Then sang the hurdy gurdy man! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:31:45 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] A Punk Blur Giluz said: >>>>I was talking about what killed the alternative independent guitar-music scene. It was still alive in Manchester on Monday night. I heard it kicking! >>>>70's punk restructured the patterns by which pop music was made: It was inevitable that these patterns would reach the mainstream eventually. 'God Save The Queen' at UK No 1 was pretty mainstream I'd say. Spitting in the face of the jubilee and all that. There is also an argument that the Pistols are just The Who but harder and more vicious... >>>>> To me, punk means 'No Rules'. > I think that idea is very much alive and well. Giluz: >>>>>There's no such thing - punk wouldn't have been so good if it hadn't offered a new set of rules instead of the old ones. What were these rules? >>>>What you're referring to is the concept of constantly breaking rules and inventing new ones - of course this attitude still exists, but not much of it can be found today (or in the past decade) in guitar based music. What I'm referring to is freedom of expression. Yamatsuka Eye (Boredoms) said he thought of Boredoms as a punk band and that that implied they could do whatever they want (within their capability, obviously). Jim O'Rourke and Christian Fennesz (Mego / Touch) make guitar based music. It is also laptop / sample based. Distinctions such as 'guitar based' are becoming increasingly meaningless. I guess you mean the singer/guitar/bass/drums live set up of the usual rock band. How do Silo figure in this distinction? Is 'Twelve Times You' guitar based or sample based? Were Crass a punk band? I question the entire orthodox 'punk history' as defined by the likes of Savage's England's Dreaming (nevertheless an informative book) and Gina Arnold's abysmal book about her perception of the US punk scene and Nirvana, which ends by setting up Fugazi as a bunch of heroes to be worshipped. They said our youth was dead! How could they know? Graeme ===== Cracked Machine irregular cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:07:23 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Killing Joke graeme wrote :- >First album = essential, vicious and nasty and hard. >Ripped off by many crap metallers. agreed, first two lp's were fine, but then after that...(post-Youth?)one eye on those T.O.T.P. appearances, maybe??? although (the intro to) 'Love Like Blood' still does the business. ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 06:02:29 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Killing Joke In a message dated Thu, 29 Mar 2001 4:20:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) writes: << <> Thanks for the link, that's a cool site. Eric //// the live cd they're selling is off the 1985 "nighttime" tour. i saw the warwick uni date on that tour and it was an all-time bottom 10 gig candidate ; band just trundling out the hits in a thoroughly bored fashion. can't comment on the performance on this cd though , obviously. the 2 really classic KJ performances i saw were about spring 81. one with ski patrol , the other with uk decay. really brilliant. the kj website has got some good downloads , old peel sessions from the early 80's. if you've not heard these they give a good idea of where they were at.p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:00:23 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT: Killing Joke, King Crimson etc george wrote :- >... but once punk rock finished its 3-4 year run, actually, i'd say it was more like 18 months, start to finish. IMO, Joy Div's 'Unknown Pleasures' signalled the death of punk rock, even though it's members probably had the most punk rock attitudes of all. i'm of the opinion these days that 'post-punk' was more worthwhile and has had a longer lasting influence on people that matter. >As you fought the punk rock wars, I have been waging a campaign for >reappraisal of the more progressive prog rock groups. I'll stand by King Crimson's 'Red' as a good example of quality prog rock, there was an awful lot of crap on both sides of the (barbed) wire. >It doesn't really surprise me. Fripp segued into the 1980s New Wave >revolution in admirable fashion (the lead guitar on Eno's "Baby's On Fire" >and "Blank Frank"). If any Wire fans out there haven't heard Eno's 'Taking Tiger Mountain' (particularly 'Third Uncle'), go out of your way to hear it... ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:13:09 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Mining Karlheinz and Kurt's Cardigans > I suspect I was the only person who returned to the > Royal Festival Hall two days after Wire delivered > their Brochure to hear a performance of Karlheinz > Stockhausen's quite impressive three orchestra sound > movement composition 'Gruppen'. Lucky you - Stockhausen's last year's Israeli concerts were cancelled because of weak audience demand. > At Reading the first time Nirvana were on the bill > below tepid MBV copyists Chapterhouse. Would you > credit it? I think Dinosaur Jr and Sonic Youth also > played if memory serves. When Nirvana kicked into the > as yet unsinglified 'Teen Spirit' a field erupted as > one. Everyone seemed to move. It was really a moment > to savour. That song had a power. I've got nothing personal against Nirvana. They were a good rock band, though not very innovative. They just came at the wrong time and were 'chosen' to be the band that would signify punk's descent into the mainstream. Let me repeat what I mean when I say 'punk' in this connection: Not the Pistols/Clash thing of 1977 but what came out of it during the 80's. 70's punk restructured the patterns by which pop music was made: It was inevitable that these patterns would reach the mainstream eventually. It would have happened without Nirvana, but Nirvana was very signifcant to that process (they didn't create it - they just stumbled on to it). > Nirvana were a good rock band. Things moved too fast > and it all went wrong. My take on this is that > Corporate Greed (and maybe drugs) killed Nirvana. I wasn't talking about what killed Nirvana - I was talking about what killed the alternative independent guitar-music scene. But Nirvana wouldn't have got to that corporate level if their music wasn't mainstream to start with. The problem was, that as far as they were concerned, they didn't try to be mainstream. I believe Nirvana thought of themselves as belonging to that alternative American bands of punk-thrash, just like Mudhoney or Hole (at the period of their first album). They found themselves at the position of someone who sold out when they actually didn't. > > Punk had nothing to do with it. > > To me, punk means 'No Rules'. > I think that idea is very much alive and well. There's no such thing - punk wouldn't have been so good if it hadn't offered a new set of rules instead of the old ones. What you're referring to is the concept of constantly breaking rules and inventing new ones - of course this attitude still exists, but not much of it can be found today (or in the past decade) in guitar based music. > > Another the reason that I am glad EMI messed up the > chances of 'Outdoor Miner' being a big hit. Absolutely - Wire is one of the perfect examples for a band that breaks its own rules and invents new ones all the time. It's very hard to maintain this attitude when you're not in the margins of the music industry. cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:39:40 +0100 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: counting records Eardrumbuz wrote :- >go betweens-spring hill fair, liberty belle... big fan of theirs..'Before Hollywood' has got to be one of the most perfect lp's ever, totally under-rated. more a fan of their early stuff but all the lp's were great up to and inc. 'Liberty Belle...' >psychedelic furs-mirror moves, world outside, talk talk talk, oh boy, another reminder of state-subsidised cannabis hazes, i'll have to hear 'T.T.T.' again now...bugger. >cath carroll-england made me god, haven't heard this for ages, i'll have to dig it out. >low-long division will broader critical acclaim make a difference? i hope not. another great band for listees of the old-fashioned 'guitar' persuasion. todays emails are being done to the sound of Mice Parade's 'True Meaning of Boodleybaye', Salaryman's mini-lp (inc. 'Voids & Superclusters'), and Guided By Voices 'Bee Thousand'. ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 03:02:11 +0100 From: Dr Volume Subject: [idealcopy] This week Graeme has been mostly eating.....(OT) Fellow Idealcopyists! I have been accused by more than one of you of the crime of dissing Graeme Rowlands! This was not my intention. I actually quite like the f**ker and he makes me laugh and sometimes he makes me want to buy strange records that I wouldn't otherwise buy. It is to his credit that I am now listening to Brucie's Music for Fruit (You don't get anything for a pear...not in this Dome) and have just managed to clamber down from the ceiling having 'found Ringo' so to speak ..... However I have a proposition to put to Mr Rowlands! Read on.... Graeme, I'd like to set you a challenge. Instead of detailing your daily listening next week how about this: I'm sure I'm not the only copyist who would like you tell us what you ate. Lets have Rowlands Diets next week. And before you start telling us you were 'Slipping Electric Salads Down Your Throat' or eating Steak And Kidney Bingoes or a Blessed Skate and Chips.....we want the truth! Maybe you could become a sort of Art-rock Jamie Oliver! Go on I dare you! > > Doctor said > >>>>> I heard the Popstars album in a record store >>>> > earlier as > well, (it was without merit) and I heard the wonderful > Outkast > record... > > Who are Popstars? I forgot you don't watch TV and are therefore blissfully ignorant of this 'phenomenon'. I presume you haven't heard about the Foot & Mouth disease sweeping the countryside.....marginally less infectious than the aformentioned Popstars.... I also assume the name Darius Danesh means nothing to you either....you missed out on a good laugh there. I'm not as radical as you but I usually watch TV with ceefax subtitles on and put records on at the same time....unless Eastenders is on...or 'Popped In Crashed Out' with Gary Numan versus the bass player from Korn. > Who is Outkast? The new Cameo! > I'm curious now! > Graeme > I'm curious Orange. Whats for dinner then?! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:50:38 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] This week Graeme has been mostly eating.....(OT) >Fellow Idealcopyists! >I have been accused by more than one of you of the crime of dissing >Graeme Rowlands! >This was not my intention. 8< snip >8 Hmmm. A large part of the rest of this message seemed like a "dis" to me. I think it would be better if this were taken off-list... Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:17:08 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] This week Graeme has been mostly eating.....(OT) Dr. Volume, then Paul Pietromonaco: >>Fellow Idealcopyists! >>I have been accused by more than one of you of the crime of dissing >>Graeme Rowlands! >>This was not my intention. > >8< snip >8 > >Hmmm. A large part of the rest of this message seemed like a "dis" to >me. > >I think it would be better if this were taken off-list... D'accord. Agreed. If the good Dr. wants to change Graeme's posting content, perhaps he should turn his able hand toward writing a post about Wire, one so scintillating that Graeme -- yea, verily, the list at large -- will have no choice but to follow him down the path of on-topic righteousness. Or to put it more succinctly, telling another listmember in an on-list message that he or she is "getting boring" *is* a personal dis, no matter how much of a modern-day Swift the writer of said dis fancies himself to be. The list has few rules, but keeping discussion civil is one of them. later, listowner Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:29:57 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT Ooops! Chameleons! Another great Chameleons performance last night at the Empire. Nice long set too. They played 4 (?) new tracks. Not bad on first listen. It's very hard to jump and sway and smoke and drink and reach those high notes all at once. But I tried. Anyone else go? I bought Doo-Lop (?) - Swim from Mr CD, Soho the other day. As some may know CDs are #1 in the basement. But, no disk when I got home. I cried. Is this worth hunting down again? Chris. The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #96 ******************************