From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #92 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, March 27 2001 Volume 04 : Number 092 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] OT: MP3 -> CD Mac/Stone Roses [Wireviews CD Mac/Stone Roses [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] OT: MP3 -> CD Mac/Stone Roses ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old [Creaig Dunton ] Re: [idealcopy] Killing Joke [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] Re: [idealcopy] Killing Joke [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] (OT) joy div [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] P'o [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] (OT) joy div [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] [idealcopy] Keith Levene didn't know about Wire but Mark Perry did [=?iso] [idealcopy] Big Black's Heartbeat [Ian Grant ] Re: [idealcopy] (OT) joy div [fernando ] [idealcopy] Re:mp3's and all that ["dMc" ] Re: [idealcopy] Wiry XTC [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old ["BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k] Re: [idealcopy] Wiry XTC ["BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 Fs" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 02:46:22 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] OT: MP3 -> CD Mac/Stone Roses " This info is all pc-related - I don't know much about mp3's on Macs. " Several ways: 1. SoundJam MP3 -> AIFF. 2. Toast 4 auto burn MP3 -> audio CD. 3. iTunes auto burn (with OS 9.1). Possibly others as well. " their time, pushing on, beyond mere ego gratification, whilst Stone Roses, at best, " Think yourself lucky. I had the misfortune to see their last performance at Reading fest and cleverly missed Underworld to boot... C ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 06:01:45 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: MP3 -> CD Mac/Stone Roses Think yourself lucky. I had the misfortune to see their last performance at Reading fest and cleverly missed Underworld to boot... ////// tragic decision! i saw underworld close V98 and they were superb , great way to close a festival. i gather the roses at reading were sufficiently bad to make grown men weep.......p ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:05:48 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: MP3 -> CD Mac/Stone Roses > Think yourself lucky. I had the misfortune to see > their last performance at Reading fest and cleverly > missed Underworld to boot... Very clever indeed. I've seen Underworld's last concert at Lowlands Festival last summer, and it was so BOOORING. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:27:12 +0100 From: Mark McQuitty Subject: [idealcopy] Rant & List I enjoyed Graeme's rant on the Stone Roses. Totally agree with it all. Their adoration by public/press made me mad at the time. Of course one mellows and they seem just a nothing to me now. Musically insignificant I'd say. As for Graeme's playlist...Wow I wish I could fit so much music into my week. I'm impressed. Was that an advance O'Shea CD on the list? Fancy the FatCat comp. Anyone checking out Mice Parade imminent tour? MarkM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:53:46 -0500 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old giluz wrote: >You can't take the voice out of a 2-track mix and isolate it. I saw an advertisement for "home karaoke" system or software - forgot - that is supposed to take any WAV file and remove the human voice from it. Do you think they are just bogus? Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 07:55:51 -0500 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: mp3's and all that >loads of boxed-up software for putting mp3's into WAV form for >burning onto cd's. has anyone bought any of these? are they actually >worth having or can you download similar stuff for free? (free) WinAmp has a plugin that instead of playing MP3s will create WAV files for ya. Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:16:37 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old > giluz wrote: > >You can't take the voice out of a 2-track mix and isolate it. > > I saw an advertisement for "home karaoke" system or software - > forgot - that is supposed to take any WAV file and remove > the human voice from it. Do you think they are just bogus? Yeah, but I can't be sure - I'm not that knowledgeable, but I guess that if someone had the solution for this kinda thing, it'll appear on far more products than just a karaoke machine. I'd really like to know what the more serious audio people on this list have to say about this whole subject (Fernando, Paul P - can you add anything?). While on the subject of Karaoke, I just had a vision: Imagine a Karaoke machine dedicated to Fall songs, including the naff Karaoke videos and especially the lyrics streaming across the screen. MES would probably be delighted. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 08:37:25 -0500 From: Creaig Dunton Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old giluz wrote: > > giluz wrote: > > >You can't take the voice out of a 2-track mix and isolate it. > > > > I saw an advertisement for "home karaoke" system or software - > > forgot - that is supposed to take any WAV file and remove > > the human voice from it. Do you think they are just bogus? > > Yeah, but I can't be sure - I'm not that knowledgeable, but I guess that if > someone had the solution for this kinda thing, it'll appear on far more > products than just a karaoke machine. I'd really like to know what the more > serious audio people on this list have to say about this whole subject > (Fernando, Paul P - can you add anything?). > Not a serious audio person, but it might not be bogus...the somewhat-old (mid 90's) video game system, the Sega Saturn, actually has a karaoke mode built into it's Audio CD player program. It doesn't really remove vocals, but it does lower the volume of them noticably. It's always been my assumption that programs/equipment like that just isolate the frequencies that are closest to the human voice and either reduces the volume or removes them all together. A bad side effect of this would be that any instrumentation in that same frequency bandwidth would also be removed. Just my bit of useless info ;) - -- Creaig Dunton http://www.2fmp.com <-2nd Floor Mafia Productions http://fpc.hypermart.net <- False Prophet Campaign ICQ: 5417270 AOL: Creaig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:36:23 +0200 From: Woerner Frank Subject: [idealcopy] Killing Joke Someone wrote ... >> Attempts to make music based on mathematical equations >> exist in modern classical music, and is basically one of the >main reasons >> why people don't write good classical stuff anymore. >> >> ////// killing joke used this sort of technique for their >"outside the >> gate" album. generally regarded as piss-poor , even by the >standards of As you mentioned them I'd like to hear the opinions of the lists's subscribers about KJ. I have several records of them ( the early 10'' ep "are you receiving" among them ) and while I don't listen to them very often I have to say there are days in my life where listening to KJ is a must. Similar it is with Tool's second CD ( cannot remember the tilte right now ). Frank from Bavaria> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:58:16 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Killing Joke Frank, I prefer Brighter Than A 1000 Suns and Nighttime to the early stuff. Brighter is a great album to be played at full volume (and make sure you join in on the "woah"'s!). The early stuff is still good. Avoid "Outside The Gate" like the plague. Chris. Woerner Frank on 26/03/2001 15:36:23 To: "'idealcopy@smoe.org'" cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: [idealcopy] Killing Joke As you mentioned them I'd like to hear the opinions of the lists's subscribers about KJ. I have several records of them ( the early 10'' ep "are you receiving" among them ) and while I don't listen to them very often I have to say there are days in my life where listening to KJ is a must. Similar it is with Tool's second CD ( cannot remember the tilte right now ). Frank from Bavaria> The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:12:31 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Killing Joke As you mentioned them I'd like to hear the opinions of the lists's subscribers about KJ. I have several records of them ( the early 10'' ep "are you receiving" among them ) and while I don't listen to them very often I have to say there are days in my life where listening to KJ is a must. ///// i still rate the youth-era KJ , they kicked up a hell of a racket on the first 2 albums in particular. also amazing live ; in about 1981 they were one of my fave 2 or 3 bands (that was my thing then) . i guess it sounds dated compared to modern industrial stuff , but as a sort of "punks retrenching against new romanticism" thing i think they were very fresh and different at the time. but the later stuff (with raven) never did much for me , in trying to be a bit more commercial i think they lost what made them special.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:45:11 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] (OT) joy div quick off topic question. when they released the "joy division greatest hits" cd a couple of years ago , they tacked a re-mix of "love will tua" onto the end. what was this like? i always fear the worse with this kind of thing...... p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:51:48 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] P'o >From: Aaron Mandel >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] apostrophe > >On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Wireviews wrote: > >> Not really. Isn't P'o a real word, meaning 'ghost' or something? >> (Obviously not an English word...) > >If I recall correctly, it's Chinese. The apostrophe comes from this >(seemingly) absurd system of orthography that western devils came up with >long ago, in which P'o sounds like "po" but Po sounds like "bo". Why? I >don't n'o. But I think the Peking->Beijing thing was the result of the >shift from that romanization to a more recent one. P'o was an Zen poet (Li P'O, Japanese, c. 8th Century). Ezra Pound's "The River Merchant's Wife: A Letter" was based on one of his poems; any good Zen poetry collection should have quite a bit of his work. I've never been certain that this is where they got the name, but I've always rather suspected so. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:02:45 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT) joy div It was hardly a re-mix. If I remember they rhythm guitar was emphasised slightly. C PaulRabjohn@aol.com on 26/03/2001 16:45:11 To: idealcopy@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: [idealcopy] (OT) joy div quick off topic question. when they released the "joy division greatest hits" cd a couple of years ago , they tacked a re-mix of "love will tua" onto the end. what was this like? i always fear the worse with this kind of thing...... p The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:35:26 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Keith Levene didn't know about Wire but Mark Perry did Interviews with Mark Perry & Keith Levene can be read on the latest Perfect Sound Forever http://www.furious.com/perfect/alternativetv.html http://www.furious.com/perfect/keithlevene.html Here's an excerpt from Levene's interview in which Wire are passed over: PSF: But what about the bands from that time? Were there any others that caught you thought were good? (laughs) Let me think of a band that actually WAS good. I didn't like them at the time but it turns out the Jam were really good. Elvis Costello was really fucking good. Prompt me! PSF: X-Ray Spex? Oh, a joke. Siouxsie and the Banshees, absolute joke. A Lydon-copier, fucking useless band. I saw them form at the Roxy Club by mistake. I can't believe that band carried on. But it happened. PSF: That IS unfortunate. What about Wire? Don't know. The Cure, a bit later on, definitely had something going on. Where we are is '76, '77, '78 so we're just into PiL here. PSF: Buzzcocks? Fucking under-rated! Maybe they chose the wrong name or maybe my perception of them is wrong. I think they should have been bigger. I think Pete Shelley is fucking... I don't get it. All that buzz about the Manchester scene and everything. Look at Oasis. What did they ever do? Why can't the Buzzcocks be as big as Oasis? What is it about them? I used to copy the Beatles totally apart from everyone else. And Mark Perry said: What we were doing was influenced by punk but we were moving away. Bands like the Pop Group were coming up and Joy Division and Wire was still doing their thing. And you had Prag Vec and the new wavey bands coming up. The Raincoats, the Slits. It was a great scene but it wasn't really punk anymore. It moved on. So, there was still a lot happening. The scene wasn't dead but it wasn't punk. Getting rid of the albatross! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:47:48 +0100 From: Ian Grant Subject: [idealcopy] Big Black's Heartbeat At 04:30 26/03/01 -0500, Graeme wrote: >Big Black - Heartbeat 7" (only Wire cover ever to >equal the original), Headache 12" I can't let that go, even if I have previously proclaimed the greatness of Big Black on this list. Admittedly, I was a great admirer of the cover until I finally heard the original. At that point, however, it began to remind me of an elephant trying to tap-dance. The beauty of the original - Wire at their most exquisite, to my mind - is its delicacy. You're always acutely aware that its structures would easily lend themselves to the kind of treatment that Big Black give it, yet that violence remains implicit rather than explicit. Instead, you get the splendid rise and fall of the riff, the steady build-up and the fade away long before any kind of crescendo, the understatement of an idea by a band in complete control. Sublime, indeed. In comparison, the Big Black version just sounds crass. Having said all that, I'm off to listen to the new Sepultura lp, so.... Cheers, ig. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:02:40 -0800 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT) joy div On the collection, the remix was that by Gehman (who I recall produced REM early on... Fables, I think). And it leaves the song intact... and just messes with the volume of instruments, and I like actually... still, not better than the peel version... but it is nicely updated. On the other hand, the Canadian CD singles includes the Arthur Baker remix... like his work with New Order's 1963 was something that I really liked... this one is a complete let down. cheers! - -fernando At 10:45 AM 3/26/01 -0500, PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: >quick off topic question. when they released the "joy division greatest >hits" cd a couple of years ago , they tacked a re-mix of "love will tua" >onto the end. what was this like? i always fear the worse with this kind >of thing...... p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:51:45 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] Re:mp3's and all that i am a big fan of the free version of MusicMatch www.musicmatch.com the latest version is even supposed to do some sort of tracking for analogue sorces - dont know the details - i use cdwave for this rips cds to shreds (well mp3s and wavs at least) burns mp3 to cd on the fly (free version only burns at 2x tho) nice player/jukebox interface - great price and constantly updated adeptec on the other hand is the only application i have seen yet which can destabilize my windows 2000 machine (no mean feat there - program error and spontaneous reboot) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:00:58 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] Re:The Death of Sa'Napster Gnutella is the technology upon which the anarchy spawned by Napster will rise again. Peer file sharing *without* a corperal server environment. Totally uncontrollable - unauditable - unresponsible to any individual entity. I have no personal experience with it - but search Yahoo or Google or whatever your preference. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:53:58 +0100 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old It is certainly possible to do the opposite. One of the more intriguing classical releases of last year featured the voice of the Great Caruso (taken from early twentieth century recordings) backed by a modern symphony orchestra. Don't know what the technique was that isolated the voice, but it was certainly more advanced than taking a stereo recording and cropping out the centre stage noise. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:46:53 +0100 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: [idealcopy] Wiry XTC Merging two recent strands, I have been spending a bit of time in the car recently with Fossil Fuel and imagining wiping the vocals off XTC songs and finding that the backing tracks wouldn't be too out of place sung over by Newman or Lewis. They actually turn out quite unconventional. Some singles that could be confused for Wire outtakes ... Making Plans for Nigel - 154 Generals and Majors - IBTABA Wake Up - Manscape By curious coincidence, also all Moulding efforts. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:41:18 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wiry XTC In a message dated 26/03/01 22:22:37 GMT Daylight Time, ssheen@clara.co.uk writes: > Some singles > that could be confused for Wire outtakes ... > > Making Plans for Nigel - 154 > Generals and Majors - IBTABA > Wake Up - Manscape > > By curious coincidence, also all Moulding efforts. > ///////// well i've not heard "wake up" but as for the other 2........do you really think so? too "bouncy" shurely? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:52:04 -0600 (CST) From: "BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 Fs" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Stephen JC Sheen wrote: > It is certainly possible to do the opposite. One of the more intriguing > classical releases of last year featured the voice of the Great Caruso > (taken from early twentieth century recordings) backed by a modern symphony > orchestra. Don't know what the technique was that isolated the voice, but > it was certainly more advanced than taking a stereo recording and cropping > out the centre stage noise. I'm guessing they might have simply mucked about with the frequencies and then overdubbed the orchestra without erasing the older version - after all, they'd be playing the same parts. My guess is the original recording would have been heavily tilted toward the vocal part anyway: wouldn't there have been one "microphone" (a horn connected to a recording stylus) to take in everything? Most likely, they would have placed Caruso closest to that recorder. I'm sure you can go into a digitized analog recording and do a reasonably good job of surgically removing particular frequencies - but I think you'd inevitably have some artifacts, for reasons someone mentioned earlier about the way the ear works. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::a squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous...got me? __Captain Beefheart__ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:54:20 -0600 (CST) From: "BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 Fs" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wiry XTC On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Stephen JC Sheen wrote: > Merging two recent strands, I have been spending a bit of time in the car > recently with Fossil Fuel and imagining wiping the vocals off XTC songs and > finding that the backing tracks wouldn't be too out of place sung over by > Newman or Lewis. They actually turn out quite unconventional. Some singles > that could be confused for Wire outtakes ... > > Making Plans for Nigel - 154 > Generals and Majors - IBTABA > Wake Up - Manscape Hmmm...I'm not sure on this either. I don't know if it's on _Fossil Fuels_, but some of the weirder backing tracks, like say "Roads Girdle the Globe," *might* be viable in this way. On the whole, I think the bands sound very different: XTC are far "better" musicians, in the traditional sense, and their parts are correspondingly harder to play. Wire seldom have any parts that are hard to play: it's coming up with the sounds and the way they work together where their genius lies. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::This is America. People do whatever the fuck they feel like doing.... ::As a result, this country has one of the worst economies in the world. __Neal Stephenson, SNOW CRASH__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 01:11:05 +0100 From: Dr Volume Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Sounding Off: This Week's Portion Graeme Rowland wrote: > Is it always the same? > Tell me what it's like when you've had enough! > Graeme > .. I've had enough I've had enough! Well not quite....but can I be so bold as to offer some constructive critcism? Don't take this the wrong way ol' Crack'd Machine dude.. Today (after work where there is no music only the Spinning of Doctors) I only had time to listen to the "Radiohead play the hits of Aphex Twin LP", a couple of Kid 606 things, Cocteau Twins/Seefeel collaboration from ages ago, thrashed around on the guitar (plugged into a Zoom 505II pedal...make your own Bruce Gilbert/Newman solo LPs in your headphones for #69 a snip!) and I am now listening to Vision Creation by the Boredoms which is the sound of pure energy and joy. A good evenings listening all told, Alas it seems I can sum up my days listening in a single paragraph! We've established that you own a mountain of Audio Information and the lifestyle that allows you to listen to it. Are you a DJ or something? I often enjoy your endless dialogue with this list but do we really need a blow by blow account of everything that flooded the Rowland ears every few days? OK I heard the Popstars album in a record store earlier as well, (it was without merit) and I heard the wonderful Outkast record.....no-one wants to know about that from me though do they? I'm always on the look out for new music and you seem to have an endless supply so how about you give us Rowlands picks of the week, an Alan 'Fluff' Freeman style rundown of what has really frazzled your cerebral cortex this week, but don't just make long lists of obscurities to show off your vast collection, tell us why *we* the Idealcopyists should perhaps get this as well! You're a pretty good writer, but learn to edit cos IMHO you're getting boring.....and I know you wouldnt want that. The Good Doctor. "When you've seen too much is it almost the same?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:08:58 -0600 (CST) From: "BotServerCentral-Sector:Mail a/k/a 2 Fs" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wiry XTC > On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Stephen JC Sheen wrote: > > > Merging two recent strands, I have been spending a bit of time in the car > > recently with Fossil Fuel and imagining wiping the vocals off XTC songs and > > finding that the backing tracks wouldn't be too out of place sung over by > > Newman or Lewis. They actually turn out quite unconventional. Some singles > > that could be confused for Wire outtakes ... > > > > Making Plans for Nigel - 154 > > Generals and Majors - IBTABA > > Wake Up - Manscape Even more so than my earlier suggestion, another track from _Drums and Wires_ (hmmm...) would be "Complicated Game." Instead of the nifty, semi-atonal solo, there could be Gilbert Noise. - --Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::beliefs are ideas going bald:: __Francis Picabia__ np: Autechre _Tri Repetae++_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:13:58 +0100 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wiry XTC I was surprised myself what a difference it would make just to take the vocals off - anybody else tried it listening to the records ? Don't trust my ears though - not only are they unable to work out the guitar part to "Shadowplay", but I still haven't got the 12XU riff. Despite the fact that these as a whole *are* bouncy "hit" records by XTC, the music on its own seems very wiry to me. ///////// well i've not heard "wake up" but as for the other 2........do you really think so? too "bouncy" shurely? p ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #92 ******************************