From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #91 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, March 26 2001 Volume 04 : Number 091 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] tv eye [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] mp3's and all that [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] OffTopic: mp3's and all that ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] Belated Rant: the indie single of Summer '89? [=?iso-8859-1?q] RE: [idealcopy] Belated Rant: the indie single of Summer '89? ["giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old voyteck@webtv.net wrote: > > Enter the computer, where a > song may be downloaded from Napster into computer digitization. Again, > download a 2nd song into digitization. Alter / remove any instrument / > voice via it's digital signature if so desired and cross the 2 in / out > of sync, randomly, backwards, etc. for a hybrid mutation offspring, song > or passage. Mentioning 'signature', yours / everyones personal signature > could be equated as a mathematical equation, if every line & loop in our > letters were measured geometrically (arcs, angles, etc.). There are a few misconceptions here: 1. Maths & Music: Music is not maths. However, music is best represented in mathematical patterns, either through sheet music, electro-magnetic voltage or digital 0's & 1's. Attempts to make music based on mathematical equations exist in modern classical music, and is basically one of the main reasons why people don't write good classical stuff anymore. Writing stuff based on Maths can work only if you use it as something to start with and then progress from there. It may seem nice and is very good for musicological analyses, but it doesn't make a piece good or bad. 2. Reconstructing audio tracks: You can't take the voice out of a 2-track mix and isolate it. You'd need AI to do this - even the most advanced human engineer working with the state of the art equipment can't do it now. Just think about it: When we listen to music we can concentrate on each individual instrument. What we actually do is reconstruct the guitar part in our brain and listen to it as if it were a completely different signal. The ability to do this varies from one person to the other - some people, for example, have trouble in concentrating on the bass guitar part. Exercise improves the brain's ability to differentiate between instruments - that's why musicians and engineers have "better" ears than the average person. This is more than talent - it's the way our brain works, and right now we don't know much about it. You can't give instructions for a computer to do this, simply because you can't actually define what the sound of each instrument would sound like, and what would distinguish it between all the other sounds. A computer wouldn't be able to distinguish between a singer and a guitar whose frequency ranges overlap. Music represented digitally dosen't give us much more room for manipulation than the old analogue magnetic representations - it's just easier to combine and deal with all the previous analogue methods. You don't have to actually cut and paste tapes, you just press your keyboard. But the actual representation of the sound wave is just the same - it is chaos. With practice, you may learn how to distinguish between various parts of the song - this is where the drums go, this is where the singer stops, etc., but it doesn't give you the ability to manipulate audio the way you intend it to. This musical revolution would have to be postponed for quite a while, I think. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 07:58:43 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old In a message dated 25/03/01 12:11:32 GMT Daylight Time, giluz@nettalk.com writes: > Attempts to make music based on mathematical equations > exist in modern classical music, and is basically one of the main reasons > why people don't write good classical stuff anymore. > > ////// killing joke used this sort of technique for their "outside the > gate" album. generally regarded as piss-poor , even by the standards of ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:07:52 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] tv eye vh1 are repeating "rock family trees" , this wed at 21.00 is the NY punk one which looks pretty good (television/.patti/blondie/talking heads/ramones etc) and for any of you pub rock fans i see the vibrators are on totp2 this week. automatic lover would be a good guess is suppose........p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:13:10 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] mp3's and all that well i was in a computer shop yesterday and i saw loads of boxed-up software for putting mp3's into WAV form for burning onto cd's. has anyone bought any of these? are they actually worth having or can you download similar stuff for free? i see napster is defunct for the time being. anyone found anything comparable to play with? (these questions may seem obvious but i am defeated by technology some of the time....)p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:25:35 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: New music from old Attempts to make music based on mathematical equations exist in modern classical music, and is basically one of the main reasons why people don't write good classical stuff anymore. ////// killing joke used this sort of technique for their "outside the gate" album. generally regarded as piss-poor , even by the standards of post-youth kj.p Lots of people did this sort of stuff, and personally I think it's good fun. The main purpose of this is to give you a starting point which would be quite different to what you'd think of yourself. We all have our own thinking patterns when we do something. If we do this thing quite often, these patterns get stronger and stronger. It's very hard to bypass these patterns when they're engraved really deep in your brain. If you do music and you feel that your thinking patterns impose a limit on your work, you could use an external source as something to start with, hence the usage of maths. That's the only good use I can see of using maths (unless you want to add some subtextual addition to your music, i.e.: it's not only a good song - it also equals the square root of all your negative sales profits that are a direct result of your obscure concentration on maths instead of just writing decent tunes). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:33:24 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] OffTopic: mp3's and all that > well i was in a computer shop yesterday and i saw loads of > boxed-up software > for putting mp3's into WAV form for burning onto cd's. has anyone > bought any > of these? are they actually worth having or can you download > similar stuff > for free? You can do it in several ways: 1. Winamp has a plugin that does the conversion for you - this is not one of the additional plugins available for download at their site, but actually exists in the basic version. 2. Adaptec's EasyCD program now automatically converts mp3's to wav's when you want to burn them onto an audio CD. 3. Xing's AudioCatalyst is the best CD grabbing software I've seen this far, but you'd have to get a cracked version if you don't want to pay the $30.00 it costs. This info is all pc-related - I don't know much about mp3's on Macs. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:11:58 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Belated Rant: the indie single of Summer '89? sean bowen said >>>>"Eardrum Buzz" was a terrific single with a wonderful video. With a little more hype it could have been a big chart hit, up there with "Made of Stone" as the indie single of Summer '89 With some additional inches perhaps, my summer 89 selection! Black Sun / Loop Freak Scene / Dinosaur Jr We Did It Again & Jimmy / Bongwater Teenage Riot & Silver Rocket & Eric's Trip / Sonic Youth Debaser & Tame & Wave of Mutilation & Dead & Gouge Away / Pixies Booze, Tobacco, Dope, Pussy, Guns & Bong Song / Butthole Surfers Steak and Black Onions / Rapeman Dizzy & Santa Claus & Dragonhead / Throwing Muses Which Dream Came True? / Band of Susans Feed Me With Your Kiss / My Bloody Valentine Orange Crush / REM were all more worthy indie summer sing-alongs (even if REM were on WEA, those were the days when indie actually meant 'on an independent label') These days it seems to be a shorthand way of saying dated mediocre watered down retro guitar pop pap, and some of the blame for that rests at the door of those Stone Roses, a right bunch of turgid flower child back glancers. The roses were strangled by weed. I can't ever forget that talentless loping ego stroking dullard Brown on Snub TV, pushing pop rocks back down to the sixties as he wittered aimlessly leglessly brainlessly about wanting to be adored. That boil burst and offered itself, up in the South Manchester sky where he was a badly formed monkey! What a pathetic spectacle. I was bored within five seconds, and I soon knew how that trucker felt, the one who kicked in his set when he saw the Pistols bad language TV spot. I can't understand what Wire ever did to get mentioned in the same breath as that hot aired lot of borrowed Byrds shtick fringe floppers, however many left feet they had (Brown bought out a cobblers market in Longsight). Its like comparing shit to gold, the tall house burns! I hope this goes a tiny way toward explaining why 'Manscape' and 'IBTABA' are visionary, ahead of their time, pushing on, beyond mere ego gratification, whilst Stone Roses, at best, were a bunch of poseur rawkstar wannabes with one catchy tune and a retrogressive ode to popsinger as deity, setting back so many advantages won in the punk rock height wars and condemning indie kids to druggy slavery. They demanded worship and we went to Glastonbury and we >SHIT ON THEIR DEAD RAWK GODZ< and danced until dawn... Then again, Maybe Stone Roses were just more popular because they never had a mullet... Sometimes I don't know why... Buffalo Bill was deprived of will chasing a hamburger down the hill! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:09:02 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Belated Rant: the indie single of Summer '89? > These days it seems to be a shorthand way of saying > dated mediocre watered down retro guitar pop pap, and > some of the blame for that rests at the door of those > Stone Roses, a right bunch of turgid flower child back > glancers. The roses were strangled by weed. I don't have any sympathies toward the Stone Roses (I actually don't really know them. Never struck me as worth the time and effort), but I think it's their whole generation that is to blame. Those late-80's - early-90's indie kids were the first post-punk alternative artists that made me realise that 'alternative' has gone mainstream. I guess each one of us has his own most hated band of that period. These bands used the same signs as former independent artists but their music was much more conservative, accessible, marketed and didn't present anything new. I was quite thrilled when 'Smells Like Teen Spirit' climbed the charts. When it got to no. 1 I began suspecting that something fishy was in the air. By the time I watched Nirvana smash guitars at the MTV awards I realised that punk-rock was dead. If there was any single band/artist responsible for this it would be them. The fact that they did have some talent doesn't come into it at all (and if it wasn't for them it would've been someone else). It wasn't really their fault - they just didn't realise that you can't recycle the same ideas forever. Actually, I'm quite glad it happened. The situation cleared the ground for the electronic revolution which was exactly what was needed - new musical patterns based on the old post-punk attitude/ideology. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:17:09 -0600 (CST) From: voyteck@webtv.net Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Past / Future (it continues...) giluz, Thanks for your time & effort explaining your take on on mine (please see previous posts / digest, as my direct reply referencing via WebTV includes internet postoffice paths; waste of eyesight). How about this: Time constraints of linear time, such as the Wire project a few month's back where contributions were / are to be edited / layered together. From my take, each contributor's music ( instrument, voice, or whatever) was to be combined on 'such the likes' of a multitrack recorder, with individual / separate tracks on a tape at the same time and whoever in control of 'the mixing board' could design / extrapolate from the contributions as the 'mixing board operator' orchestrates the tape. This situation, however, is limited to linear time. Instead of each contributors music recorded on tape, record it on disc (as a track) and have each on a different drive (as many drives as it takes / if I understand computer-ware) as separate tracks. Here, without the constraints of linear time, each track would run independent and a mix of linear, loops, samples, backwards, & effects et al could be created from the available number of discs. Reconstructing audio tracks: I purchased a surround sound receiver about 10 years ago and discovered that when I played music through the Dolby ()) pro logic theatre mode (5 channel), most music sounded very different from the left & right so used to in my car and earlier L/R channel systems. In theatre mode, usually the singers voice is center channel placed and instruments not so prominent in earlier listenings pop out alive (L/R) most notably from the rear channels. It seemed as if I had a whole new library / versions of music to (re)listen to!! Approaching the speakers, I do hear 'bleeding over' from the other channels, but centered in the room it's an incredibly glorious effect!! As profound as "take from the past / give to the future" can be, maybe experiments of people who have a couple of computers could go off in 'multi-disc' mixing and produce something decent ... maybe run a litmus test before 'true pop-tune judges': unbiased 3-6 year olds, whether they fall asleep, are scared, or jump around dancing & laughing. I guess it's all in our dreams & ideas of what giving birth means ... DavO ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:42:12 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OffTopic: mp3's and all that >> well i was in a computer shop yesterday and i saw loads of >> boxed-up software >> for putting mp3's into WAV form for burning onto cd's. has anyone >> bought any >> of these? are they actually worth having or can you download >> similar stuff >> for free? > >You can do it in several ways: > >1. Winamp has a plugin that does the conversion for you - this is not >one of >the addit 8< snipped for space >8 In addition to giluz's fine suggestions, I would add the CD ROM burning program Nero. This is from ahead software (http://www.ahead.de). This program handles MP3 to WAV conversion very well, there are built in audio filters, you can *edit* .WAV files you add, they support Video CD and Super Video CD formats, they have a full featured evaluation download, double buffered CD burning, an impressive list of other features, and the final version is only $49.00 or so. Let me put it this way - after messing around with NTI CD-Maker Pro, and Adaptec's Easy CD creator, which came with various CD-RW drives I own, I actually *bought* Nero - it's just that much better, in my opinion. If you don't want to buy Nero, the evaluation version times out after a while. But, usually just in time to download the next version of Nero. That's their gimmick - if you don't buy it, then you become a Beta tester for them. Pretty clever idea, really. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:55:45 -0000 From: "Steve Speight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OffTopic: mp3's and all that I have to agree with Paul on this. I too have used Adaptec and now use Nero. Much more reliable. Steve - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Paul Pietromonaco Sent: 25-mm-01 20:42 To: 'IdealCopy ' Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OffTopic: mp3's and all that >> well i was in a computer shop yesterday and i saw loads of >> boxed-up software >> for putting mp3's into WAV form for burning onto cd's. has anyone >> bought any >> of these? are they actually worth having or can you download >> similar stuff >> for free? > >You can do it in several ways: > >1. Winamp has a plugin that does the conversion for you - this is not >one of >the addit 8< snipped for space >8 In addition to giluz's fine suggestions, I would add the CD ROM burning program Nero. This is from ahead software (http://www.ahead.de). This program handles MP3 to WAV conversion very well, there are built in audio filters, you can *edit* .WAV files you add, they support Video CD and Super Video CD formats, they have a full featured evaluation download, double buffered CD burning, an impressive list of other features, and the final version is only $49.00 or so. Let me put it this way - after messing around with NTI CD-Maker Pro, and Adaptec's Easy CD creator, which came with various CD-RW drives I own, I actually *bought* Nero - it's just that much better, in my opinion. If you don't want to buy Nero, the evaluation version times out after a while. But, usually just in time to download the next version of Nero. That's their gimmick - if you don't buy it, then you become a Beta tester for them. Pretty clever idea, really. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:46:56 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Sounding Off: This Week's Portion Phill Niblock - Touch Works for Hurdy Gurdy & Voice ...album of the quarter... the drone goes on... Low & Vibracathedral Orchestra live at Manchester University Vibracathedral Orchestra soundcheck Low - Things We Lost in the Fire Vibracathedral Orchestra - Lino Hi, Hollin, Long Live the Weeds Ocsid - Opening Sweep, In Between (now playing... Detect is inching up on Feed Me as my favourite Lewis vocal) Bruce Gilbert - Music for Fruit, Radio Impakt Immersion - Oscillating IBM - The Oval Recording Wir - The First Letter Wire - The Third Day, 12 Times You 7" Michael O'Shea Silo - Alloy (every home should have a silo) Pan Sonic - Aaltopiiri Otomo Yoshihide - Music for Dance Art Hong Kong's Memory Disorder Tony Oxley Quartet (Matt Wand, Pat Thomas, Derek Bailey) Fat Cat Split Series 1-8 compilation (a bargain at #2) ...Foehn, V/Vm, Third Eye Foundation, Merzbow, Gescom, James Plotkin, Speedranch^Jansky Noise, Chasm... Disco Operating System - Phonia 12", compact disc digital audio ...who will buy the RSI film rights? Mild Man Jan - Crystal Sad Rockets - Transition (patchy, but a bargain at #1) Young God 2000AD compilation ...Angels of Light, Calla, Ulan Bator, Flux Information Services, Windsor for the Derby, David Coulter The Fall - Kimble Turing Machine - A New Machine For Living David Shea - The Tower of Mirrors Pablo's Eye - All She Wants Grows Blue Pauline Oliveros & David Gamper - Live at the Ijsbreker Autechre - ep7, Merzbow remix Foehn - Insideout Eyes, Silent Light Boredoms - Super Roots 7 & 8 & 5 & 6 Trans Am - Futureworld Secret Chiefs 3 - Second Grand Constitution and Bylaws You Know Faust Subarachnoid Space & Walking Timebombs - The Sleeping Sickness Main - Firmament II Kendall Turner Overdrive - Displaced Links Symptoms Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica Thomas P. Heckman - Raum Zbigniew Karkowski & Helmut Schafer - Disruptor Charles Hayward - Double Agents (live in Japan w/ Keiji Haino, Otomo Y, Tatsuya Yoshida, Peter Brotzmann) Melt Banana - Dead Spex 7" Pita - Get Out The Magic Sound of Fenn O'Berg Hash Jar Tempo - Under Glass Band of Pain - Reculver Fly Pan Am - Sedatif en Frequences et Sillons Godspeed YBE - Like Antennae to Heaven Daniel Weaver - The Tail Wagging the Dog Luc Ferrari - Unheimlich Schon Mecano - The Half Inch Universe Super Silent - live tape from Jazz on 3 Ornette Coleman - Free Jazz Third Eye Foundation - Ghost Big Black - Heartbeat 7" (only Wire cover ever to equal the original), Headache 12" Shellac - 1000 Hurts Fugazi - Repeater Nomeansno - Small Parts Isolated and Destroyed Swans Are Dead Band of Susans - Love Agenda Throwing Muses - Dizzy 10" New Order - Power, Corruption and Lies Joy Division - Heart and Soul discs 2 & 4 Magazine - Peel sessions tape Madness & Blondie on pub jukebox Heard a lot of mediocre pap on radios fading out as I walked away, only memorable ditty being 'Ticket To Ride'. Is that all I had time for? And now I want to hear it all again! Missed Peter Brotzmann on Radio 3... Did anyone out there record it? Is it always the same? Tell me what it's like when you've had enough! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:57:08 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: New Muzik OFF TOPIC Howard, << Re NNW - New Muzik made 3 albums, don't know why I know that; couldn't be that I have them all or anything. >> The gentleman doth protest too much! Mark (who owns the first one!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 10:12:08 +0200 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: [idealcopy] mp3's and all that >-----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- >Von: PaulRabjohn@aol.com [mailto:PaulRabjohn@aol.com] >Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. Mdrz 2001 15:13 >An: idealcopy@smoe.org >Betreff: [idealcopy] mp3's and all that > > >well i was in a computer shop yesterday and i saw loads of >boxed-up software >for putting mp3's into WAV form for burning onto cd's. has >anyone bought any >of these? are they actually worth having or can you download >similar stuff >for free? > >i see napster is defunct for the time being. anyone found >anything comparable I downloaded the whole day yesterday ... its not defunct. Frank from Bavaria ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #91 ******************************