From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #85 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, March 21 2001 Volume 04 : Number 085 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Take Care ["ian jackson" ] Re: [idealcopy] Wire = Euro VU ["ian jackson" ] Re: [idealcopy] Wire = Euro VU [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Wire = Euro VU [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT - new Joy Division live album [MarkBursa@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] OT - new Joy Division live album ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] Take Care ["Stephen Jackson" ] Re: [idealcopy] Take Care ["Stephen Jackson" ] [idealcopy] re: Boredom Lyrics & a question about the list [Hatsephsut@ao] [idealcopy] re: ot vic reeves ["dMc" ] [idealcopy] The European VU [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] re: Boredom Lyrics & a question about the list ["Stephen ] Re: [idealcopy] OT - new Joy Division live album [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] re: Boredom Lyrics & a question about the list [PaulRabjo] [idealcopy] (OT) tv eye [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Autechre Peel [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] (OT) tv eye [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Joy division live [j alberson ] Re: [idealcopy] Joy division live [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] old news, but current topics reminded me [Hatsephsut@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:33:29 -0000 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Take Care stephen wrote:- The fantastic enunciation on "I Should have Known Better"....especially the way he says "I haven't found a measure yet to...." (Despite its grammatical errors sorry to be so picky stephen, but isn't it "I haven't found a measure yet so..."? man, lyrics, the bain of my life ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:37:16 -0000 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire = Euro VU and presumably that Gill fellow was Nico, right? ;-) ...or maybe Angela Conway??? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:30:19 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire = Euro VU Ian, George Gill was Angela Conway?!?!...well, have you ever seen them together? Mark ;-) << and presumably that Gill fellow was Nico, right? ;-) ...or maybe Angela Conway??? >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:42:27 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire = Euro VU Well.... Reed - ego, words, voice, pop sensibility, mullet Cale - ego, avant garde, noise Morrison - unique guitar style Tucker - metronome Newman - ego, pop sensibility, voice Lewis - ego, words, mullet Gilbert - unique guitar style, avant garde Gotobed - metronome Nearly the same! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 08:10:24 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - new Joy Division live album Doctor, << .Preston is bootleg quality << It's actually off the mixing desk... >>and I assume it was released because it captures them almost suceeding under very grim circumstances and has them improvising like mad midway through...plus you get to hear Rob Gretton shouting at the band and at the peak of confusion a girl utters the immortal words.."Anyone going to Wigan << Burnley actually (pedant! a mate of mine organised the trip...) >>the Coach leaves in five minutes!!!". So whats special about this new set? Any JD experts know? >> It's a French radio broadcast, and is therefore of good quality. A few of the European gigs were broadcast - the Paradiso Amsterdam show was also a radio recording. Not sure how much mixing desk stuff survives. I was an avid collector of JD live tapes at the time and they were rare back then. I suspect the band don't want to flood the market, though personally I's like to see them do what Pearl Jam is doing and release every gig which has a reasonable recording. Don't know why Wire don't do the same via pinkflag.com with some archive live tapes too.....the stuff certainly exists! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:30:25 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT - new Joy Division live album > Not sure how much mixing desk stuff survives. I was an avid > collector of JD > live tapes at the time and they were rare back then. I suspect the band > don't want to flood the market, though personally I's like to see them do > what Pearl Jam is doing and release every gig which has a reasonable > recording. > > Don't know why Wire don't do the same via pinkflag.com with some > archive live > tapes too.....the stuff certainly exists! I think it's a bit too expensive just to satisfy the few hundred fans (or even less) that would go for it - Wire certainly don't have as much fans as Pearl Jam, even today, I suspect. Besides, I'm quite satisfied with 3rd Day and All In The Brochure, alongside the hopefully to be released sometime this year (together with Colin's solo album) Albini sessions. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:16:40 +0000 From: "they.wait" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] repetitious arhythmic bipedal anomalies > Who was dumber first--Wire or FZ? > I assume by FZ you mean Fisher Z? I heard a track of theirs on John Peel? 20 years ago and always thought I'd look into getting some of their stuff. Two decades later - can anyone recommend a classic recording of theirs? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:19:42 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - new Joy Division live album Giluz, I wasn't suggesting for a moment that Wire should release everything. Maybe one good '70s gig and one good '80s gig could shift the 1,000 or so units that seems to make a worthwhile pinkflag.com release. But Joy Division is a different matter. I'm sure the Preston gig sold well and the Paris one should sell too. There can't be too many JD tapes of mixing desk quality...they didn't play that many gigs with a decent PA system.I reckon the market could stretch to half a dozen or so. Mark << I think it's a bit too expensive just to satisfy the few hundred fans (or even less) that would go for it - Wire certainly don't have as much fans as Pearl Jam, even today, I suspect. Besides, I'm quite satisfied with 3rd Day and All In The Brochure, alongside the hopefully to be released sometime this year (together with Colin's solo album) Albini sessions. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:30:11 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] I love you because you look like Vic Reeves Giluz said >>>>Reeves, though silly and vulgar, lacked that quite significant talent that makes a comedian - being funny. It's not enough just being silly and vulgar. I never got Reeves until I was so bombarded by his shtick that the repetition kicked in - repetition in our humour and we're never gonna lose it! Also being in a room full of people who got all the injokes was helpful. Reeves was a real old style dancehall theatrical turn - - I think you really had to be exposed to his comedy with a crowd of laughers. >>>>Wire and the Fall can also be fully understood only by British people Wire perhaps? But it would probably take a lifetime and a few breakdowns to ever fully get the Fall no matter what country you came from. Mark Smith lives out/in his own universe. This is not to slight Wire's originality, it's just that they're crazier aspects have always been very much kept in check, cardboard tube hats, bread ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:34:27 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] What time is it on your planet? In the e-mail they're pouring the detail Hanging in the slipstream, "Wire fell into worthless synth-pap around the time of Manscape"? Displayed and exhibited down the stairs, A medicine finish, a craftsman's touch You hung your lights in the trees That's how many cmae to grief! Man Pan sheds included! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:35:36 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] repetitious arhythmic bipedal anomalies Fischer Z !! Now there is a blast from the past.I think their classic song was "The Worker " but I do have the other odd thing by them in my collection.Would have to dig around though. Cheers Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:40:08 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Wire's influence is far greater than the obvious copyists With 12XU & 106 Beats That they invented 'hardcore punk' Without which I dread to think how bad things would've got. OK so it devolved eventually, but if it wasn't for Pink Flag everyone might be sitting around listening to weedy flower child crud like the Stone Roses. Oh, they still are... Damn, Another the theory shot to shit! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:44:36 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Finest Drops Weakest track on both Bell & IBTABA IMO Best thing about it was it morphed into the brilliant 'German Shepherds' Second weakest track on IBTABA? Eardrum Buzz Second weakest track on Bell? Kidney Bingos Great lyrics to both though... High, low! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:45:43 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] repetitious arhythmic bipedal anomalies Er...the FZ referred to Frank Zappa! As for Fischer Z, I think there were two albums...neither of which could be described as "classic" (though knowing this list there's bound to be a massive fan out there!!!!!)..more like amiable quirky new wave... the first album (Word Salad) has all you ever need to know and more, and is probably available on eBay for $79... Mark << I assume by FZ you mean Fisher Z? I heard a track of theirs on John Peel? 20 years ago and always thought I'd look into getting some of their stuff. Two decades later - can anyone recommend a classic recording of theirs? >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:53:57 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Something new Michael said >>>>Bruce Gilbert has said that the VU and the Beatles are the only 2 bands to have created something completely new--or something like that. Bruce was just being self effacing, I guess. What was Manscape? What else sounds like that? What sounds like Ab Ovo? And find me one other recording remotely similar to The Haring please! Beatles & VU ripped stuff off, especially Beatles early on! Way more than Wire!!!!!!! All Beatles best ideas came from musique concrete. How influential would VU have been without Cale's concurrent involvement with Tony Conrad & Lamonte Young in the Dream Syndicate? A little less, I think! You see up in my bedroom I've got Paul McCartney's band Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:01:00 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Welsh Velvet >>>>is the title valid at all? Can you think of another potential "British Velvets" candidate? The title is meaningless, but John Cale was Welsh so maybe the Velvets could be considered the British Velvets? We just live here! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:04:00 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Finest Drops Graeme, Apart from German Shepherds being brilliant, I disagree with all of these statements!!! Bell is great because it has no bad tracks. The most consistent, and therefore for me the best, of the '80s Wire albums. Kidney Bingos should perhaps have been on Ideal Copy - but Colin's pop rewrite is a thing of genius. Mark << Weakest track on both Bell & IBTABA IMO Best thing about it was it morphed into the brilliant 'German Shepherds' Second weakest track on IBTABA? Eardrum Buzz Second weakest track on Bell? Kidney Bingos >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:08:39 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Joy division live >>>>I'd been led to believe that the only decent quality recordings had already been released on Still and the box set You call that shoddy H&S live stuff decent? And people still slag D&E, I give up! Wilson is milking the cow! He's been at it for years! The film will be a joke, but then most films are. This thrill seeker was searching for the ultimate high! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:16:21 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Welsh Velvet But not the Live 69 or third album line-up ;-) Mark << The title is meaningless, but John Cale was Welsh so maybe the Velvets could be considered the British Velvets? >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:20:00 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Velvet Wire Colin is clearly Lou Reed (mouthy egotistical genius), Gilbert is clearly Cale (quieter egotistical genius with serious avante garde heaviness), Gotobed is Mo Tucker (understated, born cool and complete metronomic perfection), trouble is Lewis is a sort of Cale/Reed hybrid so they haven't got a Sterling Morisson.....near enough though innit?? If you're writing a comedy of errors, I guess so. Robert is the wrong sex, obviously. Bruce never struck me as being very egotistical. Colin should be utterly insulted to be compared to Lou Reed, since Reed is a washed up hasbeen who fucked up all his artistic collaborations due to monstrous ego distortion. I don't think the same is true of Colin at all (compare 12 Times You to Ecstasy, and laugh). Also Mo Tucker slightly muffs the drums on Sister Ray, and Robert did too on the peel Drill, so maybe they are the same person after all. Actually Graham is Elvis (Lewis is almost an anagram, it's so obvious), Colin is Gary Numan's brother, Robert is Ringo (they both have big noses) and Bruce is half of the golden arches duo Gilbert & George but only on Sundays. Come back Vic! I'm feelin' dizzy! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:14:48 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Something new Hmmm... << All Beatles best ideas came from musique concrete. >> Hindsight hmm? 20:20 isn't it? Marvellous! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:24:19 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Autechre Peel Tim said >>>>I'm still getting to grips with their last release which was a John Peel Session...I expect to understand it sometime next year...thats the way it is with Autechre. I disagree. I find their records very immediate. The Peel session was very accessible to my way of hearing. However they do grow. They are much imitated and its really got quite boring playing spot the Autechre influence. Still better that than the bloddy Stone Roses or all that wannabe deified rawk regressive blather! Chiastic Hats! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:28:41 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] I love you because you look like Vic Reeves > >>>>Wire and the Fall can also be fully understood > only by British people > > Wire perhaps? > But it would probably take a lifetime and a few > breakdowns to ever fully get the Fall no matter what > country you came from. Mark Smith lives out/in his own > universe. This is not to slight Wire's originality, > it's just that they're crazier aspects have always > been very much kept in check, cardboard tube hats, bread Oh, you Brits don't understand how completely obscure you may seem to someone from the outside. I think even now, the few people in Israel that ever heard of the Fall seem to think of them as dark serious avant-garde, so serious that their music is virtually humourless. Same thing could be said about Wire's irony, which is way too subtle for our thick mid-eastern heads. > Beatles & VU ripped stuff off, especially Beatles > early on! Way more than Wire!!!!!!! > > All Beatles best ideas came from musique concrete. > > How influential would VU have been without Cale's > concurrent involvement with Tony Conrad & Lamonte > Young in the Dream Syndicate? The whole history of rock is about ripping off other people's stuff: Rockabilly was about white kids trying to imitate black music. Early 60's British pop invention was about young Brits trying to imitate rockabilly and R&B, and so on and on. Even Can admitted to using rock cliches (though in a completely original way). One of the greatest things about the Beatles was the unshameful way they utilised their musical influences and mixed them together. VU would not have been influential without Cale's avant-garde ventures, but do you actually prefer the Dream Syndicate to the VU? All of the history of art is about the way you use the currently conventional patterns, just like Wire did on Pink Flag, using punk patterns to make something which was more than punk. cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:28:51 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] The drone goes on and presumably that Gill fellow was Nico, right? ;-) No, Angela Conway was Nico Malk Spigel was Nico Susan Stenger was Nico too Russell Haswell was Andy Warhol (after Solanas shot him) Russell Mills was Andy Warhol (before getting shot) Paul Smith was Steve Sesnick (please don't sue) Ron West was Tony Conrad The drone was itself Stop! Serious enquiry: Whatever happened to Ron West? Lock up the VU comparisons! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:31:56 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Bell ist gut >>>>Bell is great because it has no bad tracks. The most consistent, and therefore for me the best, of the '80s Wire albums. Kidney Bingos should perhaps have been on Ideal Copy - but Colin's pop rewrite is a thing of genius. Well, I don't dislike those tracks, just like them a bit less. Bell could've been even better with German Shephards & Pieta included... I can't understand why people get bored of it either! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:34:40 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Number Nine Beat << All Beatles best ideas came from musique concrete. >> Hindsight hmm? 20:20 isn't it? Marvellous! No, its number nine... Well it'd be silly to not use it. Besides, the Beatles split up just before I was born so forgive me if I employ a historical perspective. No, I never listened to Pierre Schaefer in the womb! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:41:44 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] History of Art >>>>VU would not have been influential without Cale's avant-garde ventures, but do you actually prefer the Dream Syndicate to the VU? I've only heard one minute of actual DS and it was pretty good, but pointless minus duration. I don't think it's a question of preferring one to the other really, as both were means to different ends. Or were they? I think Lou Reed would say so, not sure about Cale... All of the history of art is about the way you use the currently conventional patterns, just like Wire did on Pink Flag, using punk patterns to make something which was more than punk. And they did it again with their so called synth pap excursions on Manscape. That album's time will come! Mile after yellow mile... Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 09:40:52 -0800 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Joy division live Well, don't tuck away your cynicism just yet... from the NME website we get the wonderful news of: ++++++++++++++++ TRANSMISSION' - STILL TOO EARLY TO HAVE TRANSMISSION DATE IAN CURTIS, the late frontman of JOY DIVISION, is set to be immortalised on celluoid in a biopic currently in production. The feature, under the working title of 'Tranmission' (taken from the Joy Division track of the same name), is based on the biography 'Touching From A Distance', written by Curtis' widow Deborah. The screenplay is being developed by writer/director Michael Stock. imdb: http://us.imdb.com/Name?Stock,+Michael +++++++++++++++++ Perhaps Jim Morrison is not gaining enough fans... so there is to be a change of what is sexy for the Radiohead generation. - -fernando At 05:08 PM 3/21/01 +0000, Graeme Rowland wrote: > >>>>I'd been >led to believe that the only decent quality recordings >had already been >released on Still and the box set > >You call that shoddy H&S live stuff decent? >And people still slag D&E, I give up! > >Wilson is milking the cow! >He's been at it for years! > >The film will be a joke, but then most films are. > >This thrill seeker was searching for the ultimate >high! >Graeme > >===== >Cracked Machine webzine >http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine > >"What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert >Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk >or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:55:26 -0000 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Take Care Ian wrote: >sorry to be so picky stephen, but isn't it >"I haven't found a measure yet so..."? >man, lyrics, the bain of my life No...the full line is " I haven't found a measure yet, to calibrate my displeasure yet so......" Too many 'yets' I think ;-) Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 18:55:26 -0000 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Take Care Ian wrote: >sorry to be so picky stephen, but isn't it >"I haven't found a measure yet so..."? >man, lyrics, the bain of my life No...the full line is " I haven't found a measure yet, to calibrate my displeasure yet so......" Too many 'yets' I think ;-) Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:23:05 EST From: Hatsephsut@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] re: Boredom Lyrics & a question about the list Got this from someone on the Buzzcocks List, in answer to the request on this list - I make no guarantee it's correct - but while I'm here, is there a web page to read the list on by any chance? - been on digest for a while but can't follow it - I'm digest impaired - and I've completely lost track and can't possibly keep up - and, while I'm at it, Dan are you still subbed? Laurel This is from memory: You know what I say and what I mean I say what comes to my mind Because I never get around to things And I'm living a straight straight line Chorus: You know me I'm acting dumb -You know the scene, very humdrum Boredom-boredom ...boredom Now I'm living in this'a movie But it doesen't move me I'm the man who's waiting for phone to ring And it ring'a ring'a fucking ding Chorus You se there's nothing that's behind me I'm already a has-been Because my future an't not what it was And I think I know the words that I mean Chorus "solo" I'm taking this extravagant journey Or so it seems to me I just came up from nowhere And I'm going straght back there Chorus You see, I'm living in this'a movie But it doesen't move me So tell me, who are you trying to arouse Get your hand off of my trousers Chorus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:47:53 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] re: ot vic reeves chiming in only because i initiated this unfortunate thread personally , i got quite a kick out of 'i remember punk rock' and little else there the dexter gordonesquesaxsolo actually stands quite well on it's own as does bj cole's pedal steel (anyone heard his 'claire de lune' ?) that said - as a yank, i always thought british humour was a contradiction of terms > ...the python's humour also contained lots of > culture-specific references, which didn't disturb them to go big in America. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:49:37 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] The European VU >From: Tim Robinson >Colin is clearly Lou Reed (mouthy egotistical genius), Gilbert is clearly >Cale (quieter egotistical genius with serious avante garde heaviness), >Gotobed is Mo Tucker (understated, born cool and complete metronomic >perfection), trouble is Lewis is a sort of Cale/Reed hybrid so they >haven't got a Sterling Morisson.....near enough though innit?? I like that! Very good comparison. My response came w/ the assumption that those who were trying the tag on were implying that Wire is as important as the VU, and clearly that's not what anyone meant. But then in defence of my misunderstanding, what are the VU most famous for? Influence and radical change. To the question, "who is the European VU, then?" my answer is John Cale. ;) Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:05:00 -0000 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] re: Boredom Lyrics & a question about the list >You know what I say and what I mean Yeah, well I say what I mean... >>Get your hand off of my trousers Get your hand out of my trousers.... Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. - --- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:25:16 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - new Joy Division live album In a message dated 21/03/01 13:15:05 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > > Don't know why Wire don't do the same via pinkflag.com with some archive > live > tapes too.....the stuff certainly exists! > > Mark > > //////// i'd heard the reason that montreux show is so widely bootlegged > (dominoe , 2 bootleg 7"s , a track on D&E) was that it was one of the very > few decent soundboard tapes around. you disagree with that then i > presume.......?p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:39:09 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] re: Boredom Lyrics & a question about the list ......you know i always thought the line was "i'm gonna run out of trousers" :-) p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:52:13 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] (OT) tv eye well i just saw something i'd certainly not have believed existed. on totp2 they showed can doing "i want more" from 76. great clip of them in the totp studio. it'll be repeated on sunday , the show also feature the highly under-rated lyndsey de paul. so it's (gulp) respect to steve wright , now that's a phrase you don't hear too often. wonder what next ; faust on cheggers plays pop? neu! on get it together? ......must own up to also reading FZ as fischer z , god that's so uncool. the only thing i remember by them was "the worker" and those classic lines "bought a 69 capri/failed the MOT/what a waste of time". now that's a crap lyric if ever i heard one. they were a sort of "nice" new wave-y act , like after the fire etc. you suspect very big in the benelux area.p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:57:01 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Autechre Peel Graeme, << Still better that than the bloddy Stone Roses or all that wannabe deified rawk regressive blather! >> Not sure SRs are the enemy..their defining moments were more than a decade ago, and their fusion of Byrdsy jangle and dance beats was, and remains, quite novel. It's Coldplay and Toploader and Badly Drawn sodding Boy that are the enemy....weedy, turgid slacker bollocks the lot of 'em. Them and Limp Biscuit. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:09:48 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT) tv eye Paul, << well i just saw something i'd certainly not have believed existed. on totp2 they showed can doing "i want more" from 76. great clip of them in the totp studio. it'll be repeated on sunday , the show also feature the highly under-rated lyndsey de paul. so it's (gulp) respect to steve wright , now that's a phrase you don't hear too often. wonder what next ; faust on cheggers plays pop? neu! on get it together?<< Now I knew that had charted, but I never knew they invited them on TOTP! I'll be away over the weekend...better set the video! >>......must own up to also reading FZ as fischer z , god that's so uncool. the only thing i remember by them was "the worker" and those classic lines "bought a 69 capri/failed the MOT/what a waste of time". now that's a crap lyric if ever i heard one. they were a sort of "nice" new wave-y act , like after the fire etc. you suspect very big in the benelux area.p >> Remember them on TOTP as well. I'd better 'fess up at this point that I own a copy of the Worker, which was acvquired at some stage in the mid-80s from a secondhand shop in Preston as part of a job lot of enormously obscure indie singles. Sort of jolly cod-reggae with added fairground organ and winsome vocals. Very "nice" indeed. Now "nice new wave" is a much-overlooked movement. Better dig out the New Muzik album! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:33:13 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Joy division live I can't wait to see how they oversensationalize THIS story. Especially given Deborah Curtis's take on the subject. Jack - --- fernando wrote: > Well, don't tuck away your cynicism just yet... from > the NME website we get > the wonderful news of: > > ++++++++++++++++ > TRANSMISSION' - STILL TOO EARLY TO HAVE TRANSMISSION > DATE > IAN CURTIS, the late frontman of JOY DIVISION, is > set to be immortalised on > celluoid in a biopic currently in production. > The feature, under the working title of > 'Tranmission' (taken from the Joy > Division track of the same name), is based on the > biography 'Touching From A > Distance', written by Curtis' widow Deborah. The > screenplay is being > developed by writer/director Michael Stock. > > imdb: http://us.imdb.com/Name?Stock,+Michael > > +++++++++++++++++ > > Perhaps Jim Morrison is not gaining enough fans... > so there is to be a > change of what is sexy for the Radiohead generation. > > -fernando > > > > At 05:08 PM 3/21/01 +0000, Graeme Rowland wrote: > > >>>>I'd been > >led to believe that the only decent quality > recordings > >had already been > >released on Still and the box set > > > >You call that shoddy H&S live stuff decent? > >And people still slag D&E, I give up! > > > >Wilson is milking the cow! > >He's been at it for years! > > > >The film will be a joke, but then most films are. > > > >This thrill seeker was searching for the ultimate > >high! > >Graeme > > > >===== > >Cracked Machine webzine > >http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine > > > >"What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC > Gilbert > >Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at > http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > >or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:32:54 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Joy division live Graeme, << You call that shoddy H&S live stuff decent? And people still slag D&E, I give up!<< The argument is one between "historically important" recordings or good sound quality. The H&S stuff is not so good quality - all audience tapes - but most of the stuff was taped at the Factory in Hulme, and was not readily available as a bootleg. The Still set (Birmingham Uni) is great sound, but a weak gig, only notable for the only live performance ever of Ceremony. Most JD fans have got some form of tape of the Amsterdam set - as it was a radio broadcast - but JD are not at their best that night....IC has a bad throat and doesn't get the full roar going. Plus the sound must've been crap on stage, as he keeps asking for "more foldback, Terry!". Now would a copy of that on H&S have been better? I had this discussion with James Nice at LTM over what should be on the last of the Crispy Ambulance albums. The vast Bursa archive turned up a cracking audience tape of the Crispies playing in a pub to a minute audience, with a set of pre-album unreleased songs. Mostly the only recordings in existence. James is a stickler for sound quality over performance, so performances of lesser songs were included as they were mixing desk tapes. To get back on topic, the last five songs on the JD H&S live disc are from the Lyceum - recorded at precisely the same time, on the same day, as D&E (29/2/80). JD at Preston is the day before. You can also own the support set to Wire's D&E gig....it's the live side of DAF's Die Kleinen und die Bosen. >> Wilson is milking the cow! He's been at it for years! >> Oh yes. And so has Alan Erasmus, who privately released the Warsaw bootleg album ages ago on vinyl (and later, "officially", on CD after Factory went tits up). Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:51:44 EST From: Hatsephsut@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] old news, but current topics reminded me I remember seeing that someone asked about 24 hour party people and going to be an extra - a girl I know was at the Hacienda set, this is from another list as well - this is her ramble about it - we got no replies to her question about the Brittania hotel :-), but there's a reply at the bottom to the question of how true to life it sounds, any comments from Hacienda People here? - Oh, and anyone seen The Alcohol Years? - just got my copy today - anyone *WANT* to comment on having been there at the time? - I wasn't, but can't imagine it was *much* different than any other music town at the time, and not sure it's Carol Morley's view I want to see, but I'll give it a go - -we're not any of us what we were then, are we now......... Laurel << Ibm up to date as ever. Now I see itbs been mentioned, I wonder if anyone else- went to the Manchester Apollo etc. as an extra for scenes including the imitation Iggy & Pistols (I didnbt, no) or the "one-off", farewell night at the Hac recreation on Fri night? It wasnbt public access: I, shameless as usual, won my chance on the production company forum. Anyway, whilst waiting for people to own up, perhaps Joey or other Hacienda people would like to nitpick the film set etc. if I try out a few details? Please! The set is in a large warehouse on Pollard St & the makers claim to have spent B#1/4m on it. The FAC 51 doors are reputedly the originals :-) All present were to dress inb88-92 baggy/ rave style $*%!! &, popstars etc. excepted, be 29 or under: supposedly representative? Glad to say there were loads of 30s to 40s & a few 50s, clearly all old members or what have you. As you enter opposite the stairs, the desk & cloakroom are some way to the left & sort of lilac-lit & minimalist to match the alcoves. The whole place is dazzlingly white & of about 800 capacity on the main floor; youbre struck by the near endless height of the place & there are industrial type bolt things to trip you up as you walk past the alcoves under the balcony opposite the stage. Bar at right angles to these & you have the famous striped industrial columns. **A Phil Diggle original is the only decoration, near the top of the left hand stairs. Is this accurate?** About 5b by 3b and therebd be no point asking bruv since I canbt describe it beyond nicely glossy black & yellow Jackson Pollocks. The balcony is genuinely impressive & therebs loads of warehouse space with traces of filming such as an MDF open room set, covered wall & ceiling with mock footprints. The music was a surprise, hard to image how any repetitive beats could be so far removed from techno. Apart from a Northern Soul influence, I lack the musical vocabulary. The crowd knew every song & Dave Haslam did a set as promised, or was that announcement part of the filming? Plenty of scenes were filmed, but not being fussed about the Stone Roses & Happy Mondays actors or Steve Coogan I didnbt pay enough attention. I went to get a taste of people getting their last night of nostalgia so I risked the dancefloor despite the inability to dance to anything but dub & tried to imagine what the others might be feeling. As usual I didnbt use stimulants or trippy stuff but of those who did Ibd guess it was of unusually pure quality, so relaxed yet lucid were they. Not tempted though. Ibd been ! imagining New Order face down drowning their sorrows at home when who should I see behind me but Hooky in jovial mood. He spent the night out in public and later Gillian was hugging old friends goodnight accompanied by at least one sister. The woman out of the Mondays was wearing a vintage Clash shirt, presumably for filming cos even VIPs were forbidden band logos. The music was periodically muted or stopped for filming but I skulked. There was a dumbstruck minute when the Ian Curtis actor was by me & I totally lost all sense of time or even self, no kidding or substance (ha ha ) either. I simply didnbt know where I was when I "came to." I think it looked like the strobes had set off a petit mal or suchlike. (Whoops, unfortunate allusion). I have every confidence this bloke will impress, with his resemblance, intense stare & desire to play I.C. "because I didnbt want anyone else to." Steve Coogan had a harder time of it. There was a cryptic message to this effect on the forum on Mon. to all attendees re: his scenes on Saturday. One take involved him making the fabled speech from the DJ platform inciting revellers to raid the Factory offices, make good use of the computers etc. but the reception was one of bewilderment since it was unannounced & they did 3 more takes, during the last 2 of which he understandably lost his ne! rve. He seems fine, just not the Tony Wilson I imagine. If only you could have provided a running commentary, >>>Joey<<< I can see most people would tease me for being so enthused but outdoor raves & festies were the nearest I got to that scene & I wanted a sense of the Factory thing-though the backstage rooms at Die Effenaar in Eindhoven which BC played last May fed the imagination better since they couldnbt have been changed since Joy Division played there. I wonder if that was a notable gig since so many of my friends mentioned the connection? Ibd have watched the filming if Ibd known Ibd try to inflict a "review". I had a moment of being 14 again though just after the set finished & I & my companion walked across the balcony from noseying round the set & Barney Sumner was on a collision course with us. I couldnbt believe I got to see him as the music finished on that "last "night- OK itbs hardly an introduction but, being so lost in thought, he wasnbt sure if we were long forgotten acquaintances & took the polite option. Apologies for rambling even more than usual. I wanted the most pedestrian of details down as possible memory prompts for you old guard. Incidentally, any stories list etiquette allows about the Britannia Hotel? > > Cheers <> ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #85 ******************************