From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #58 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, February 24 2001 Volume 04 : Number 058 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] Thrak & eighties personified? [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowlan] Re: [idealcopy]OT 1984 a different perspective [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy]OT - King Crimson [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Public Flippin' Image!! [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) ["Syarzhuk Kazachenka" ] Re: [idealcopy] Stampede [Ink ] [idealcopy] King Crimson; Gilbert & Fripp [Michael Flaherty ] [idealcopy] Eardrum Bingoes/RFH [Tim Robinson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 05:02:53 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) they really shouldn't bother otherwise it will be about as worthwhile as that tragic Sex Pistols reformation....when was that? 96-97? >>///// tim you're not the first person in recent weeks to slag the pistols for reforming. sorry but i really disagree , i thought it was wonderfully inevitable that the pistols would reform for a big pile of money; how could they not have? on the one hand the pistols were fabulous artists , but on the other they were inveterate scammers and managed to do it all without losing their sense of humour. along with 35,000 others i was at the finsbury park gig and i doubt anyone didn't have a great time. like the RFH , it was just a great celebration of something genuinely worth celebrating. with everyone in on the joke and nobody being conned. what were you expectng ; jazz odyssey? just enjoy it as entertainment maybe? i think lydon has come to terms very well with his "legacy" whereas moz & co seem a very bitter and sad bunch. and maybe that's the difference.p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:02:18 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Thrak & eighties personified? OK I'm no great KC fan used to live with a guy who had all the early ones and they never floated my boat but I did get him into Wire with endless plays of 154 & IBTABA Only KC I ever cared for were the instrumentals on Thrak & Thrakattack - the vocals are utterly cringesome. For me the eighties personified were Butthole Surfers screaming Satan Satan! Sonic Youth down in death valley! Big Black settin' it on fire with kerosene and Wire checking up the once over to give us an opening. Plus the primal howl of Black Francis, FM Einheit drilling and the spaced loops of Loop and being deafened for weeks by J. Mascis wah wah pedal. I'm afraid Frankie spankie passed me by. Lock up your hats! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:21:45 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT 1984 a different perspective Rick, << I started to try and put myself back into my '1984' self and realized that there was actually some pretty good music around that time. >> By 84 the explosion of post-punk creativity had largely come to an end. A lot of the great bands had gone (Wire, Magazine, Go4) while others had mutated into chart-pop acts(Cure, Banhees) - or worse, failed wannabe chart acts (Comsat Angels) . Most of the local 'scenes'; like Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield were drying up. New synth/drum machine technology was making innovative bands less interesting (New Order, Cabaret Voltaire). What happened, crucially, around that time, was a highlighted sense of 'retro'. Bands started namechecking the Byrds - the Smiths were a manifestation of this to some extent, as were new indie bands like the Loft and Primal Scream (whose touchstone had been Postcard records, in retrospect far and away the most influential early indie label). At the same time there was a wave of equally 60s-obsessed US bands - REM, Rain Parade, Long Ryders, Dream Syndicate - which opened the doors to underground 60s music to a lot of people. I know I bought a lot of 60s psychedelic albums around that time. The underground/indie scene was still OK - as it remained throughout the 80s. And chart pop wasd a lot more interesting than it ever was in the 90s. The 80s were fine. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:29:40 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) Tim, << Seeing as neither of them has done anything of any musical merit since 1987 I'd say they should have a go. << Disagree. Morrissey has produced several killer singles (Suedehead, International Playboys) and at least three excellent albums (Viva Hate, Vauxhall and I, Southpaw Grammar). OK, he's produced at least two stinkers and a candidate Top 20 worst singles of all time (Roy's Keen). And been a stupid twat with a union jack in front of Madness' NF skinheads. But it's a better solo career than you might have expected. >>Its a subject that often comes up in conversation, 'Would you go and see The Smiths if they reformed?'. I think if they did it now, loads of people would. >> I would. Most reformed bands I've seen over the past 15 years or so have been excellent - Big Star, Velvets, Television, Pere Ubu, Bauhaus and of course Wire, on both occasions. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:34:30 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) Tim, << However if they don't reform in the next 5 years or so they really shouldn't bother otherwise it will be about as worthwhile as that tragic Sex Pistols reformation....when was that? 96-97? >> Wrong. For anybody who fought in the punk rock wars that was the chance to get your medal from the general. The Pistols were superb at Finsbury Park. Lydon said one of the reasons (apart form the dosh) to do the gig was to actually play Never Mind the Bollocks through a decent stadium PA - the band had only ever played shit-holes first time round. He was right - it sounded fantastic. The only missed trick was not doing No Fun as an encore, with Iggy (who was support that night). No swindle. Everyody enjoyed that gig. Wonder if they'll do it again next year for Her Majesty's Golden Jubilee ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:37:22 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT - King Crimson Jeff, << The band was vastly different at different stages of its career (something that recommends it, actually). The first two albums are Big Prog in a sort of post-Moody Blues way: lots of mellotrons, Greg Lake's awful blatting and pompous lyrics (courtesy of Peter Sinfield: Worst Rock Lyricist Ever, fancied himself a Poet - surely w/a capital P). Then he left, the textures thinned out, and they produced their worst album (I think) _Lizards_, which is the most elves-and-wizards-y of the lot (Jon Anderson of Yes sings on a track). Next stop was a sort of strange, almost jazz-like set of maunderings that have never done much for me. << Hmm....i don't think that'll convince me to invest in the Box Set!!! >>Their peak, for me, was the last incarnation of the first band: _Larks' Tongues in Aspic_, _Starless_, and _Red_ (_USA_ is a live album from the same period with only one, I think, new track). Here, they'd developed music that was distinctly indebted to prog in its angular lines and odd meters but which brought the aggression and energy of the best rock of that era (1972-74) to play with a diamond-hard intensity. Had he been a few years older, I could imagine one Graham Lewis in this version of the band - and the sometimes no-holds-barred approach to noisey textures might have appealed (and might did - anyone know?) to B.C. Gilbert. >> There's a big Prog feature in the new issue of Mojo magazine, which cites Larks Tongues in Aspic as one of the great prog albums. Probably the best starting place. But I don't hold out much hope. Greg Lake is not allowed in the house. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:50:17 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Public Flippin' Image!! Graeme, << Anyway I think Keith Levene's unique creativity was the major interest factor of PIL and without him it wasn't really PIL anymore. They'd made a big effort with the awesome 'Flowers of Romance' to do something supremely anti-rock and latterly in New York were exploring video avenues and, performing behind a screen, messed with a rock audience's expectations enough to precipitate a small riot. It was so disappointing to hear Lydon doing metal cliches that I never listened to another PIL album.<< Never saw Album as metal. It was hard and heavy sure, but so is the current version of Wire, and that's hardly poodle rock is it! Agree that Levene in PiL was a genius, but his post-PiL output is almost non-existent. >> Lydon changed things a lot more than most at a very young age so I find it easy to forgive him his latter day bollocks, just as long as I don't have to listen to it. And 'Rise' *is* laughably atrocious, as were the reformed Pistols. >> Rise was a great single, the last great record PiL made. See my separate post for the Pistols reunion. >>Lydon ripped off the idea of the generic 'album' sleeve from Flipper's first album 'Generic'. A later Flipper live double referred to this with its title 'Public Flipper Limited'.<< I thought they ripped it off from Alex Cox's film Repo Man. >>To me, Black Flag and early Rollins Band and Nirvana were 'heavy metal done right', and don't get me started on John Zorn's Painkiller (featuring Bill Laswell on bass) and the astounding Naked City. Also check the razor garglers of the Relapse records roster.<< I don't see any of that as being heavy metal. Hard rock for sure, but there's a big difference between Nirvana/Pixies turbocharged punk and, say, Enter Sandman by Metallica, or Fell on Black Days by Soundgarden, both of which are Heavy Metal Done Right. HM is very much a style of music which employs stylistic devices (high singing, solos, relatively slow tempos, churning, dense riffs). Pixies and Nirvana (loud/quiet, no solos, shouting, fast tempos) are very different animals. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:57:31 -0500 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) >Marr's complete inability to do anything interesting since the Smiths >has never ceased to amaze me. I had no idea who The The were, and took there CD from the library to get a feeling. It was "Mind Bomb" with Marr on guitar, and I quite like it. I dunno though if he was anything more than just a session muso there. Syarzhuk _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:37:54 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT - King Crimson On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Jeff, > > >>Their peak, for me, was the last incarnation of the first band: _Larks' > Tongues in Aspic_, _Starless_, and _Red_ (_USA_ is a live album from the > same period with only one, I think, new track). Here, they'd developed > music that was distinctly indebted to prog in its angular lines and odd > meters but which brought the aggression and energy of the best rock of > that era (1972-74) to play with a diamond-hard intensity. Had he been a > few years older, I could imagine one Graham Lewis in this version of the > band - and the sometimes no-holds-barred approach to noisey textures might > have appealed (and might did - anyone know?) to B.C. Gilbert. >> > > There's a big Prog feature in the new issue of Mojo magazine, which cites > Larks Tongues in Aspic as one of the great prog albums. Probably the best > starting place. But I don't hold out much hope. Greg Lake is not allowed in > the house. Oh - Lake was gone after the first few records. During this period John Wetton sang and played bass - they'd hired some other guy to write lyrics (I forget his name) which, while still a bit on the "I'm writing poetry!" side, are nowhere near as pretentious as Sinfield's twaddle. Plus, the records here are mostly instrumental. Greg Lake should be banished from everyone's houses. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::a squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous...got me? __Captain Beefheart__ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:29:59 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT - King Crimson > Oh - Lake was gone after the first few records. During this period John > Wetton sang and played bass - they'd hired some other guy to write lyrics > (I forget his name) which, while still a bit on the "I'm writing poetry!" > side, are nowhere near as pretentious as Sinfield's twaddle. Plus, the > records here are mostly instrumental. > Richard W. Palmer-James Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:40:03 +0000 From: Ink Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Stampede In message <3A962BEA.4FE8EE57@lucent.com>, Mark Short writes >jasonmb@calweb.com wrote: >> >> I've been meaning to ask this for a while and finally remembered to do it: >> >> What exactly is Graham singing in "Stampede"? I can't figure it out. >> "Strike a manual, drive your car"? Andrew's site doesn't include his >> part on the Manscape lyrics page, just Colin's. > >"Strike a medal..." I think. or drive your car to the 'Potsdamer Abkommen' bar. A reference to a bar which, if my friends from Berlin are to be believed, was a mucho cool hangout for musicians recording at the nearby Hansa Studios with Gareth Jones in the mid-80s (Wire at the time of The Ideal Copy, Depeche Mode et al). It was situated on Potsdamer Platz, which was a pretty desolate area before the wall, which basically cut in half, came down, and it would have been the first place to get a drink for anyone coming from the East into this part of town. Legend has it that it was also one of the first bars in Berlin to hold regular S&M events... nik ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:00:36 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] King Crimson; Gilbert & Fripp Red is probably my favourite KC album, and Wetton's on it. >Doesn't interfere at all with my hatred of Asia. > >cheers, >giluz Nothing should interfere w/ hating Asia. >From: MarkBursa@aol.com >Subject: [idealcopy]OT - King Crimson > >Lots of people on this list seem to really like King Crimson, judiging by the >posts. I must say I'm completely baffled by this. Everything I've ever heard >has just sounded like pompous, turgid, noodling prog-rock of the most >abhorrent variety. Someone, convince me it's not. > >Mark (who once saw R Fripp's League of Gentlemen, which was OK if a bit >fiddly) Jeffrey did an excellent job w/ their history--and I agreed w/ 99% of what he said, so I'll only add that Fripp's philosophical and classical influence are completely different than Yes and the rest. The music is full subtle atonal undercurrents, and while yes, the musicians are technically good, Fripp has never been interested in technique as its own end. I think his being influenced by Eno (and his acknowledging it) shows this quite well. >Ditto with the newer 'ProjeKt's' where the members >change lineups and tour separately. In some ways I >like those better than alot of KC's proper albums. > >Hope that helps, > >RJH Me too. Sometimes I wish they'd drop the songs and just go w/ instrumentals (always their strongest material, but more than ever now). and the sometimes no-holds-barred approach to noisey textures might >have appealed (and might did - anyone know?) to B.C. Gilbert. I heard an interview where Bruce was asked why he didn't play like Fripp and he answered, "I'm not a virtuoso guitarist." Stupid question, of course, but Bruce's answer at least implies that he wouldn't be totally opposed to this sort of playing by those who can do so. I know Eno was an early influence (see "Frequency Variation"), and the 2 albums w/ Fripp were likely to be a major part of that. (I think they were particularly discussing Fripp's solo works.) It seems to me that disliking music because it is technically difficult is as big of a mistake as disliking music because it's not technically difficult. I have a feeling Fripp and Gilbert would both agree w/ this. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:34:53 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Public Flippin' Image!! > << Anyway I think Keith Levene's unique > creativity was the major interest factor of PIL and > without him it wasn't really PIL anymore. > ////// welll , you have to give lydon a little credit? but avoid the levine solo album at all costs ; really poor. > Never saw Album as metal. It was hard and heavy sure, but so is the current > version of Wire, and that's hardly poodle rock is it! Agree that Levene in > PiL was a genius, but his post-PiL output is almost non-existent. > > ///// "beef" by gary clail is the only other thing i can think of. real > shame ; he was such a talent. wonder what he's doing now ; i hope the > answer isn't the obvious.p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:48:49 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) In a message dated 23/02/01 13:13:35 GMT Standard Time, bamboo7431@hotmail.com writes: > >Marr's complete inability to do anything interesting since the Smiths > >has never ceased to amaze me. > I had no idea who The The were, and took there CD from the library to get a > feeling. It was "Mind Bomb" with Marr on guitar, and I quite like it. I > dunno though if he was anything more than just a session muso there. > > ///// "mind bomb" is an album that really divides people. i often see it listed by people as an all time fave , and i know people who rate it very highly. to me it was a huge disappointment ; i loved soul mining/infected (at the time) and thought MB was just more of the same but worse. and johnny marr's input seemed negligible. the following album "dusk" i thought was better , but the the seemed to be last years thing by then. on a wire note , i was never too keen on the tracks dome did with the the ; is anyone a fan of those?p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:00:53 -0800 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) At 04:48 PM 2/23/01 -0500, PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 23/02/01 13:13:35 GMT Standard Time, >bamboo7431@hotmail.com writes: > > > > >Marr's complete inability to do anything interesting since the Smiths > > >has never ceased to amaze me. > > I had no idea who The The were, and took there CD from the library to > get a > > feeling. It was "Mind Bomb" with Marr on guitar, and I quite like it. I > > dunno though if he was anything more than just a session muso there. > > > > > >///// "mind bomb" is an album that really divides people. i often see it >listed by people as an all time fave , and i know people who rate it very >highly. to me it was a huge disappointment ; i loved soul mining/infected (at >the time) and thought MB was just more of the same but worse. and johnny >marr's input seemed negligible. the following album "dusk" i thought was >better , but the the seemed to be last years thing by then. I am in the camp that Mind Bomb is awful, save for a couple of tracks. Actually, given my dislike for Sinead, I think that her duet here is superb, and perhaps the best track on that album... Kingdom of Rain, which is not too dissimilar to the previous work. What I have noticed is that Smith fans, following the doings of Marr, tend to be the ones that rave about the album. Not being a big Smiths fan, I cannot say what is the allure... but it is very common to see the connection. But, most The The followers before Mind Bomb, are not too taken by the album. I think that Dusk was a great return to form... even the NakedSelf is a great effort... if not following a Wire-guitar-basics attitude, though done before Wire re-formed... the live show was rather good. - -fernando ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:22:56 +0000 From: Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] Eardrum Bingoes/RFH So this thing the 80s Wire did where they played Eardum Buzz and Kidney Bingoes at the same time. How did that work in practice? Did they just play tapes of the tracks at the same time? Thats what it sounds like on the Video FAQ thing. I remember reading the review of their Reading show in NME at the time and thinking...contrary bastards! Also, someone reminded me tonight that at the RFH there was a running order posted in the foyer of what was going to happen and when, Rockpalast 7.30.....Immersion 8.00 etc/ One of the items just after the Michael Clark dancers was entitled 'Grahams Trees' and at the the time we had wondered what that was going to be, but forgot after the the mind-boggling evening and the mad Krautrock club night at the Garage afterwards. What was this exactly cos I don't remember any trees being involved. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #58 ******************************