From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #57 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 04 : Number 057 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) ["giluz" ] RE: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] OT: Asia/Wetton [Michael Flaherty ] FW: [idealcopy] OT: Asia/Wetton ["giluz" ] [idealcopy]OT - King Crimson [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] Public Flippin' Image!! [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) [Tim Robinson ] Re: FW: [idealcopy] OT: Asia/Wetton [Mark Short ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:48:59 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) wonder if the ever-diminishing > returns of the solo careers will force him and mozza to swallow > their pride and get it back together? just a thought. What for? So they could make some more whining pathetic boring pop songs that everyone thinks the world of? Sorry, I've had enough of Smiths vol 1. > an awesome selection of distilled mediocrity. Mediocrity's too good for them - Asia is the only band nominated for our worst band contest that actually exists. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:22:35 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: RE: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) << wonder if the ever-diminishing > returns of the solo careers will force him and mozza to swallow > their pride and get it back together? just a thought. What for? So they could make some more whining pathetic boring pop songs that everyone thinks the world of? Sorry, I've had enough of Smiths vol 1. /////// i still know a lot of people who seriously rate the smiths and after half a shandy launch into endless tedious debates about when they will reform , all are convinced they can effortlessly pick up where they left off despite all evidence to the contrary. i think it's about as likely as bowie rediscovering his 70's muse , another thing that'll never happen.p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:48:13 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) Paul, << What for? So they could make some more whining pathetic boring pop songs that everyone thinks the world of? Sorry, I've had enough of Smiths vol 1. /////// i still know a lot of people who seriously rate the smiths and after half a shandy launch into endless tedious debates about when they will reform , all are convinced they can effortlessly pick up where they left off despite all evidence to the contrary. i think it's about as likely as bowie rediscovering his 70's muse , another thing that'll never happen.p >> Agreed. Though Morrissey's solo stuff is often surprisingly good. But then again, he hasn't produced anything at all for at least five years. I suspect the timing would never be right for a Smiths revival - the anorak massive isn't there any more, despite what Belle & Sebastian may believe. Never found the Smiths boring or whining though. The Queen is Dead is a brilliant album. Doesn't miss a beat. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:16:16 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Asia/Wetton First of all, I hate Asia w/ a passion. Not only is the music awful, but they stole their name from another band, promising the little band the moon to change so they could be Asia, and then delivering nothing. (The guitarist was a teacher of mine. If anyone wants the nasty details, check barkingdogrecords.com.) John Wetton's playing w/ King Crimson was brilliant. Well, it was. Granted, the guitarist was giving him some good material to work with, but still. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:53:13 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: FW: [idealcopy] OT: Asia/Wetton > First of all, I hate Asia w/ a passion. > > John Wetton's playing w/ King Crimson was brilliant. Well, it was. > Granted, the guitarist was giving him some good material to work with, but > still. He's not the first King Crimson member whose post-KC input was awful - ever listened to any of Bruford's albums, or Pete Sinfield? Ian McDonald? The list is long. Red is probably my favourite KC album, and Wetton's on it. Doesn't interfere at all with my hatred of Asia. cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:08:23 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy]OT - King Crimson Lots of people on this list seem to really like King Crimson, judiging by the posts. I must say I'm completely baffled by this. Everything I've ever heard has just sounded like pompous, turgid, noodling prog-rock of the most abhorrent variety. Someone, convince me it's not. Mark (who once saw R Fripp's League of Gentlemen, which was OK if a bit fiddly) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:12:37 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Public Flippin' Image!! Syarzhuk said of PIL's 'album' >>>>Someone on this list summarized this album as "heavy metal done right". A succinct summation, but to me it's overproduced and plods with little energy and is the album where IMO Lydon descended into self parody and became everything he'd always railed against. It leaves a bitter taste and to me its only redeeming feature was the lyric 'Go crawl back in your dust bin' which could be read as a cynical reflection of his earlier 'We are the flowers in your dustbin'. Anyway I think Keith Levene's unique creativity was the major interest factor of PIL and without him it wasn't really PIL anymore. They'd made a big effort with the awesome 'Flowers of Romance' to do something supremely anti-rock and latterly in New York were exploring video avenues and, performing behind a screen, messed with a rock audience's expectations enough to precipitate a small riot. It was so disappointing to hear Lydon doing metal cliches that I never listened to another PIL album. Lydon changed things a lot more than most at a very young age so I find it easy to forgive him his latter day bollocks, just as long as I don't have to listen to it. And 'Rise' *is* laughably atrocious, as were the reformed Pistols. Lydon ripped off the idea of the generic 'album' sleeve from Flipper's first album 'Generic'. A later Flipper live double referred to this with its title 'Public Flipper Limited'. Whatever happened to Jeanette Lee? To me, Black Flag and early Rollins Band and Nirvana were 'heavy metal done right', and don't get me started on John Zorn's Painkiller (featuring Bill Laswell on bass) and the astounding Naked City. Also check the razor garglers of the Relapse records roster. OK I'll go crawl back in my dustbin with my Dome CD's... Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:42:31 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT - King Crimson As one of the aforementioned fans, I'll chip in on the KC subject... > Someone, convince me it's not. I don't know if I can do that, as I do agree that KC's albums can sink or soar, depending on what was driving them. For me, the albums that make them great are: Court of the Crimson King Lark's Tongue in Aspic Red Discipline ConstrucKtion of Light Albums I've listened to a few times and found pretty dull: Wake of Poseidon (sp?) Starless and Bible Black Beat Thrak Albums I've listened to a couple of times and hated: Lizard Islands Thrakattack USA - Live Three of a Perfect Pair So as you can see, I would recommend the top group, that seems to be where the band puts the pieces together just right. If you want a taste, I would recommend starting with the newer stuff and working backwards, as they get more 'prog' as you go back. I also am an avowed soundscapes fan, so I play Fripp's solo stuff alot. Ditto with the newer 'ProjeKt's' where the members change lineups and tour separately. In some ways I like those better than alot of KC's proper albums. Hope that helps, RJH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 02:35:30 +0000 From: Tim Robinson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] i don't love 1984 (OT) > following on from recent discussions about 87 not being the greatest , i watched a vid of the bbc "i love 1984" last night. blimey , that was pretty crap too to be honest. Come on 84 wasnt so bad....Frankie were a load of fun......three bubble permed scallies and two camp-as-christmas scousers singing nuclear paronoia anthems produced by Trevor Horn? The 80s personified and scariliy funny! Its a great series though, in terms of after-pub entertainment. Kershaw admitting that 'The Riddle' was complete bollocks while his fans sent him letters claiming they had solved 'The Riddle' was priceless..... Be interesting too see just what they find to 'love' in the next few episodes....does anyone love 1986, 1987? Actually for me the appeal of the programme is kind of "God weren't they dark dark days, but at least we survived the 80s and the first half of the 90s were ace) Entire series is worth it just to see crap 80s Madonna sponsered child-star Felix drying up completely while interviewing Paul McCartney on The Tube..."If you weren't a Beatle what would you like to have been?...". Where is Felix now? In rehab with Gary Coleman probably. > 'd forgotten quite how bad nik kershaw and howard jones were. At least they were unintentionally funny.....can't see many of todays pop icons bringing a mime-artist called Jed on tour with them...(who presumably has hung up his 'mental chains' for good). In fact I can't see the likes of Ronan Keating or Westlife ever thinking of anything other than chart-returns, units shifted and market shares. > they did a smiths segment which was quite good , with some recent comments from johnny marr. who is looking a little tired these days. > can't have been that solo career wearing him out though.....has anyone actually heard the healers? Fortunately not. I hear they are influenced by The Jam and the Faces and sound a bit like Oasis. Groundbreaking stuff! Marr's complete inability to do anything interesting since the Smiths has never ceased to amaze me. They truly were greater than the sum of their parts of whatever. > wonder if the ever-diminishing returns of the solo careers will force him and mozza to swallow their pride and get it back together? just a thought. Seeing as neither of them has done anything of any musical merit since 1987 I'd say they should have a go. Its a subject that often comes up in conversation, 'Would you go and see The Smiths if they reformed?'. I think if they did it now, loads of people would. They still have 'Morrisey and Smiths' nights at a pub just down the road from me, for gawds sake. Certainly I would imagine a large percentage of the Smiths fanbase will never have seen them live. Had they come out today they would have been snapped up by a fake indie label owned by BMG and would have been playing Stadiums after 'Hand in Glove' and be Mercury Prize winners...(see Coldplay et al) and probably split up much sooner. However if they don't reform in the next 5 years or so they really shouldn't bother otherwise it will be about as worthwhile as that tragic Sex Pistols reformation....when was that? 96-97? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:18:55 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Public Flippin' Image!! In a message dated 2/22/1 2:35:58 PM, crackedmachine@yahoo.co.uk writes: >They'd made > >a big effort with the awesome 'Flowers of Romance' to > >do something supremely anti-rock and latterly in New > >York were exploring video avenues and, performing > >behind a screen, messed with a rock audience's > >expectations enough to precipitate a small riot hey graeme! were you there? a night i'll never ever forget! from standing out in the rain to get in...to sweating in the overpacked ritz...to the boos and thrown bottles...to johnny's taunting "are you getting your monies worth?"...i had a blast! forgot all about being cold, then hot and soaking wet throughout. PIL shows were great before "album", although i do like the song rise. i also like seattle and the remake of the suit, but the only time i saw them live at this point was in support of new order at an arena gig. now there was a blown opportunity for a screen, fire extinguishers, and taunting! i guess that could've turned out like neubauten on the zooropa (or zoo tv?) tour! - -paul c.d. p.s. i'm sure some listers here were at the shows on the document & eyewitness album, or other shows from around that time. i don't recall reading any posts about those experiences and would love to hear! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:57:50 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT - King Crimson On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Lots of people on this list seem to really like King Crimson, judiging by the > posts. I must say I'm completely baffled by this. Everything I've ever heard > has just sounded like pompous, turgid, noodling prog-rock of the most > abhorrent variety. Someone, convince me it's not. The band was vastly different at different stages of its career (something that recommends it, actually). The first two albums are Big Prog in a sort of post-Moody Blues way: lots of mellotrons, Greg Lake's awful blatting and pompous lyrics (courtesy of Peter Sinfield: Worst Rock Lyricist Ever, fancied himself a Poet - surely w/a capital P). Then he left, the textures thinned out, and they produced their worst album (I think) _Lizards_, which is the most elves-and-wizards-y of the lot (Jon Anderson of Yes sings on a track). Next stop was a sort of strange, almost jazz-like set of maunderings that have never done much for me. Their peak, for me, was the last incarnation of the first band: _Larks' Tongues in Aspic_, _Starless_, and _Red_ (_USA_ is a live album from the same period with only one, I think, new track). Here, they'd developed music that was distinctly indebted to prog in its angular lines and odd meters but which brought the aggression and energy of the best rock of that era (1972-74) to play with a diamond-hard intensity. Had he been a few years older, I could imagine one Graham Lewis in this version of the band - and the sometimes no-holds-barred approach to noisey textures might have appealed (and might did - anyone know?) to B.C. Gilbert. Then they broke up, reformed in '81, recorded three albums that were influenced seemingly in equal measure by Talking Heads and Steve Reich. The modus operandi here was a sort of spiky, new-wave-y backdrop and even the most pop-song like compositions of their career combined with tricky, polymetric parts in nutso rhythms like 7/8 at the same time as 5/8...with the drummer playing in 4. Plus you get Adrian Belew making animal noises w/his guitars. This is my second favorite version of the band. Then they broke up again and reformed some years back with the same personnel plus two other people: a second bass/Chapman Stick guy and a second drummer. I have one full-length and one EP from this period: never did much for me. I haven't really followed them since - someone else can take up the thread, I'm sure. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::beliefs are ideas going bald:: __Francis Picabia__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:36:59 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT 1984 a different perspective Just to put a new spin on an old thread.... I started to try and put myself back into my '1984' self and realized that there was actually some pretty good music around that time. In 83/84, I was a student at Oregon State and I remember the campus station playing alot of Midnight Oil, Skinny Puppy, Siousie and the Banshees, Cure, et al. And although Bauhaus was gone, Tones on Tails/Love and Rockets were happening and I still listen to them at times. A year later I was living in San Luis Obispo while finishing school and I worked in a record store with the first "goth girl" I ever met. She turned me on to alot of stuff I STILL listen to! It was a great respite to all of the "hair metal" and jazz fusion that most of the staff liked to play! Overall, I have always thought of the "popular music" of whatever year to be akin to shining a flashlight on the ocean at night. You see some things, but so much more great stuff is going on out of your sight.... Just a thought... RJH PS - Alyce's radio show was pretty cool until my computer choked on the bandwidth! I did hear her play the Fall, PIL, Pere Ubu, and a few that I didn't recognize. Beats the disco/hip hop show that preceded it by a long shot! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:37:07 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT 1984 a different perspective Just to put a new spin on an old thread.... I started to try and put myself back into my '1984' self and realized that there was actually some pretty good music around that time. In 83/84, I was a student at Oregon State and I remember the campus station playing alot of Midnight Oil, Skinny Puppy, Siousie and the Banshees, Cure, et al. And although Bauhaus was gone, Tones on Tails/Love and Rockets were happening and I still listen to them at times. A year later I was living in San Luis Obispo while finishing school and I worked in a record store with the first "goth girl" I ever met. She turned me on to alot of stuff I STILL listen to! It was a great respite to all of the "hair metal" and jazz fusion that most of the staff liked to play! Overall, I have always thought of the "popular music" of whatever year to be akin to shining a flashlight on the ocean at night. You see some things, but so much more great stuff is going on out of your sight.... Just a thought... RJH PS - Alyce's radio show was pretty cool until my computer choked on the bandwidth! I did hear her play the Fall, PIL, Pere Ubu, and a few that I didn't recognize. Beats the disco/hip hop show that preceded it by a long shot! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:06:09 -0800 From: jasonmb@calweb.com Subject: [idealcopy] Stampede I've been meaning to ask this for a while and finally remembered to do it: What exactly is Graham singing in "Stampede"? I can't figure it out. "Strike a manual, drive your car"? Andrew's site doesn't include his part on the Manscape lyrics page, just Colin's. - -- Jason Borchers jasonmb@calweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:22:50 +0000 From: Mark Short Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Stampede jasonmb@calweb.com wrote: > > I've been meaning to ask this for a while and finally remembered to do it: > > What exactly is Graham singing in "Stampede"? I can't figure it out. > "Strike a manual, drive your car"? Andrew's site doesn't include his > part on the Manscape lyrics page, just Colin's. "Strike a medal..." I think. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:27:33 +0000 From: Mark Short Subject: Re: FW: [idealcopy] OT: Asia/Wetton giluz wrote: > > > He's not the first King Crimson member whose post-KC input was awful - ever > listened to any of Bruford's albums, or Pete Sinfield? I've got Sinfield's collaboration with Eno, called "In a Land Of Clear Colour". It consists of the Sinster reading a dreary sci-fi story, interspersed with some of Eno's ambient music. Utter crap. (Does anyone know if it has rarity value?) ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #57 ******************************