From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #51 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, February 17 2001 Volume 04 : Number 051 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re: NME Mediocre Dross Awards [Ian Grant ] [idealcopy] OT: GIG [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] [idealcopy] FSAMTV [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] Figures in Crumbs [Wireviews ] Re: [idealcopy] Creation/NME Mediocre Dross Awards [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] Creation Records ["Jerry" ] Re: [idealcopy] Creation Records [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Creation Records [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] [idealcopy] Re: Wir 1992. [Howard Spencer ] [idealcopy] Changing Life Question [Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Re: NME Mediocre Dross Awards At 04:30 16/02/2001 -0500, Tim wrote: >I don't! Its just if the NME is supposed to be a barmoter of cutting >edge non-mainstream music then have at look at the winners of their 'Brat >Awards': Jeez, Tim! It's a readers' poll, for goodness sake! Since when have readers' polls been in "a barometer of cutting edge non-mainstream music"? The results are *always* conservative and unrepresentative of the full cross-section of the coverage available. To use them as an indication of the slide in quality of the national music press is, frankly, ludicrous. Oh, and Kelis' LP is damn fine, by the way. Cheers, ig. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:08:30 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT: GIG So sorry for the off topic post but I had to tell someone. This is from Gigsandtours.com. Just look at the postage!!!! STANDING #15.00 With Booking Fee #16.75 Postage # 4.25 C The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 04:46:11 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] FSAMTV There's a FAQ regarding the CDR on the Wireviews site, but... " Is this the Wire CD-R? Does it have anything not avilable on the video? " IIRC, Silk Skin Paws and Post Code Orange. Not sure if the Wire interviews are on the video or not. " Is it better than the video? " "Better" is subjective, but then it wasn't meant to be a direct competitior to the video. Certainly the media quality is lower and there's less info (but then it's cheaper). (To that end, I put most of the CDR together and *I* prefer the video, but then like the CDR for entirely different reasons: curiosity, 'an item', having the lyrics next to the videos while they are playing, etc...) Bear in mind that the CDR was released at a time when Wire did not exist -- it was meant to be a curiosity item, something a bit different. The resurrection of Wire has meant that any 'advertising' of the CDR on Wireviews has essentially ceased. It's also 'before its time' as several people have commented -- an idea of what a Wire DVD might be in a year or two... However, most of the stuff is quite watchable and most feedback has been really positive, at least if you don't compare it to the video! Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 04:50:18 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Figures in Crumbs " I rate "in esse" (he and I being among that small group of Bruce diehards here :) )and I think "F in C" is the worst Wire related thing in my collection " Well, given the choice between In Esse and FiC, I'd go for FiC every time. Mind you, given the choice between In Esse and having my ears bashed in with a dustbin lid, I'd probably go for the latter (although many would argue they are the same thing). FiC is a great riff and despite dodgy percussion and mixing is a really good track. If you can ignore the idiot from Erasure, that is... Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:29:26 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Creation/NME Mediocre Dross Awards Tim, << I am and its brilliant. A real eye opener. The Creation heyday, I guess 89-94 was when I was a student and we just thought Creation was the best label ever and dug the music but never realised what a bunch of f**k ups they all were! Never realised just how bad the MBV situation was....always wanted to be in that band but completely changed my mind now! Although I met Debbie Goodge last year and she was really nice and well-adjusted and really sociable. As for Primal Scream and the House of Love..........brrrrrr!<< I knew some of the people on the periphery of the scene and attended a lot of the gigs mentioned in that book. You could see it getting more and more druggy....Hard to believe how the Primals actually became a big band. They went from weedy Byrds impersonators to weedy Stones impersonators....and then.... As for House of Love, there was always something slightly suspicious about them (though they were a good singles band). Never realsied what a twat Guy Chadwick was though. Great Lawrence stories aren't they....! >> Apparently McGee hates the book and is championing another shoddy Creation history book written by a complete dimwit called Paolo Hewitt who has shite paul weller hair and wrote a crappy cash-in book about Oasis.<< Ex-NME and unofficial PR man to Paul Weller. It's the "official" book. Might make an interesting read after Cavanagh's real story... >>If you look at his website poptones.com he slags off Cavanaghs book with such venom, and then starts ranting about how much he hates Martin Carr (Boo Radleys).....<< Well that's what you'd expect from McGee.... >> I don't! Its just if the NME is supposed to be a barmoter of cutting edge non-mainstream music then have at look at the winners of their 'Brat Awards': << Most of them are readers' awards. you can't blame NME for that. >> Fatboy Slim (He wakes up every morning with Zoe Ball....at least we don't have to anymore), Marilyn Manson (Alice Cooper without the tunes) , Coldplay (Oh No...Whats This...a ruthlessly marketed bunch of slop) , U2 (hello is it 1987?) , Oasis (Are you still here?) , Eminem (Oh his lyrics are so clever he's the 21st century Bob Dylan...NO HE IS NOT! He is a whining little tosser with blond highlights and a chip-shop on his shoulder...) , All Saints (Oh just split up and be gone you know you want to) Kelis (and now I'm going to do a tribute to Jimi Hendrix....) , Badly Drawn Boy (Wow...dressing like a dosser is so cool) and Radiohead (Just discovered the Aphex Twin 8 years after everyone else)<< I agree... up to the Radiohead comment. The "just discovered Aphex" is a pretty cheap shot really at the only mainstream British group with its artistic integrity intact. So they introduced some other influences to their sound? Good! They freely admitted they were into Aphex/Autechre etc. ibet a lot of people have investigated those artists as a result of buying Kid A, which is a superb, diverse and artistic album - which also topped the charts on both sides of the Atlantic. There are many other bands more deserving of vitriol than the 'head. >>Thats f**kin terrible. Thats the biggest bunch of sh*t ever and it scares the sh*t out of me if that is what is considered the cutting edge of music in this country.....a load of expertly marketed souless, artless, musically bankrupt crap. I know there is a lot of interesting stuff going on in Britain but it clearly now has no national music press to support it anymore. NME will be as pointless as RollingStone by this time next year. >> It has been through bad phases before. The bigger problem is with the music itself. Anything interesting seems to be driven further towards the margins....which is not healthy. Whether anything will cut through the marketing-driven shite is another matter. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:05:38 -0000 From: "Jerry" Subject: [idealcopy] Creation Records That deserves coming out of lurkio. Just checked the Poptones web site. What a bunch of sad old men. What a rich man's folly. Can you believe that McGee was responsible for MBV? Must have been an accident. He was right about one thing though...the Boo Radleys were shite, but HE was responsible j ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:42:27 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Creation Records Jerry, A truly desperate review. Still writes like a 1983 fanzine writer, doesn't he. Hewitt's book must be doing badly if he needs to slag off the competition like that. He's right about it being remaindered in Scotland for a fiver. That's where I got mine. However he fails to mention that Hewitt's hagiography was in the same shop, for I think #8. Post-Oasis, McGee seems incapable of judging anything by any other yardstick than units shifted. Tory wanker. Mark PS - doesn't the Poptones roster look ropey? Looks like el records or something, all zany/whacky fops.... << That deserves coming out of lurkio. Just checked the Poptones web site. What a bunch of sad old men. What a rich man's folly. Can you believe that McGee was responsible for MBV? Must have been an accident. He was right about one thing though...the Boo Radleys were shite, but HE was responsible >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:42:16 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Creation Records I do recommend The Montgolfier Bros. - Seventeen Stars. Don't know much about the rest. Chris. MarkBursa@aol.com on 16/02/2001 14:42:27 To: jerry@dmcworld.com, idealcopy@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Creation Records Jerry, A truly desperate review. Still writes like a 1983 fanzine writer, doesn't he. Hewitt's book must be doing badly if he needs to slag off the competition like that. He's right about it being remaindered in Scotland for a fiver. That's where I got mine. However he fails to mention that Hewitt's hagiography was in the same shop, for I think #8. Post-Oasis, McGee seems incapable of judging anything by any other yardstick than units shifted. Tory wanker. Mark PS - doesn't the Poptones roster look ropey? Looks like el records or something, all zany/whacky fops.... << That deserves coming out of lurkio. Just checked the Poptones web site. What a bunch of sad old men. What a rich man's folly. Can you believe that McGee was responsible for MBV? Must have been an accident. He was right about one thing though...the Boo Radleys were shite, but HE was responsible >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:25:53 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Wir 1992. /////// it was a one-off gig at the clapham grand in 1992(?) , on the night before the election john major won. i was there, there were short sets by a number of artists. i think it went piquet/aer/dome/wall of guitarists/wir/stretcheads. excellent night , sadly the only wir performance i ever saw (if you don't count the manscape tour).p Also the Hafler Trio, which as I recall involved some bloke in a white boiler suit squirting KY jelly out of a tube all over the audience. Charming. I believe they did a first letter remix which I have never bothered with, purely on the strength of their performance last night. It was indeed the night before the 92 election - I remember kicking the shit out of a bin at Waterloo station after I heard the Basildon result that heralded what was to come. Re the great sell out debate - we shd not discount the point that artists are at the end of the day mere mortals, and the reason that many third albums are crap perhaps has something to do with them simply running out of decent ideas? They are also mere mortals who have to eat, so we should not be too harsh on them for `selling out' - I was talking to this with a friend the other day, regarding the use of Goldfrapp's stuff for an advert - apparently they were offered some phenomenal sum for this, silly money. If you've spent half your professional life eking out a living as a session musician or waiting on tables or whatever then you'd need to be made of stern stuff not to take the money and run. Howard - --- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:01:04 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Changing Life Question >From: Wireviews >Subject: [idealcopy] How did Wire change your life? Despite having played their music regularly for about 24 years, I'm not sure that they have. They are a big part, perhaps even my favorite part, of a larger movement. Pink Flag is my second fav. punk record, but it certainly didn't have the impact of the Pistols. However, CM and especially 154 were at the forefront of my moving away from strict punk into my current tastes. Probably no more so than PIL or Fripp and Eno (alone, together, and in their Bowie collaborations), but a large part never the less. I spent much of '79 trying to convince everyone I knew that 154 was one of the 10 best albums ever released. I still think so. > >The odd thing is, I now tend to prefer the solo works, >such as Hox and Immersion to Wire... go figure. :) > > >Craig. Me too, although I would replace Immersion w/ Dome and Bruce and add Ocsid to Hox. The idea of a Wire reunion is less exciting to me than the '99 Dome release was. As for Graham, he's doing some of his best work right now. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:14:27 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Wir 1992. Also the Hafler Trio, which as I recall involved some bloke in a white boiler suit squirting KY jelly out of a tube all over the audience. Charming. I believe they did a first letter remix which I have never bothered with, purely on the strength of their performance last night. ///// i think the hafler trio was "audio only". the guys in boiler suits were also ripping up copies of "the sun". i thought they were aer but i may be wrong...... Re the great sell out debate - we shd not discount the point that artists are at the end of the day mere mortals, and the reason that many third albums are crap perhaps has something to do with them simply running out of decent ideas? ////// that was part of my point to gilluz , that it's not fair to slate people for not consistently good for a long time. even if they only managed a brief flowering , it may well still have been worthwhile , and certainly better than most of what's on offer.p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:03:42 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Creation/NME Mediocre Dross Awards In a message dated 16/02/01 13:39:35 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > I agree... up to the Radiohead comment. The "just discovered Aphex" is a > pretty cheap shot really at the only mainstream British group with its > artistic integrity intact. So they introduced some other influences to > their > sound? Good! They freely admitted they were into Aphex/Autechre etc. ibet > a > lot of people have investigated those artists as a result of buying Kid A, > which is a superb, diverse and artistic album - which also topped the > charts > on both sides of the Atlantic. There are many other bands more deserving of > vitriol than the 'head. //////// quick question i've been meaning to ask for some time. i thought blur's "13" was a reasonable attempt to do something different in a way not a million miles from what radiohead tried. not perfect , but pretty good (as was "blur"). yet blur never quite get taken seriously whereas thom and co were treated as if they'd just done something unbelievably original with kid a. my thoughts were that if your frame of reference was travis then kid a was probably an artistic tour de force. but to anyone who'd heard even a little of recent electronica then it was hardly anything mind-blowing. i really think a lot of this is down to the way radiohead have presented themselves/been marketed , to me it isn't half as clever as they'd like it to be. appareently the next 'head album is more commercial and meanwhile damon is getting into world music. neither fill me with much hope. interesting to see how kid a will be viewed in a couple of years maybe? other newish brit acts with credibility intact? pj harvey , chemical bros , death in vegas , leftfield , pulp , SFA , gorkys , stereolab , gomez , primal scream , orbital ? you might not like them all (I don't) but this "radiohead are in a field of one" argument is putting it much too strongly. p ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:47:43 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Bruce's 50Drill and a book in itself? Eric Klaver said of (no?) Wire in 92-98 >>>>>Doesn't Wire (or at least Colin) consider Wire to be the Gotobed, Lewis, Newman, Gilbert lineup exclusively? If this is the case, then Colin was correct, wasn't he? No because Robert was definitely there for Bruce's birthday drill. However Colin was very annoyed about the leaks to the media that Wire were 'reforming' and if you watch the video you'll hear Graham do most of the vocals, Colin hunched and angry for dugga!!!!!!!! Colin said there was really no meeting of minds so perhaps he was there in body only! :-) Funny that the only journo I spoke to who was in attendance was so busy ignoring the performance that he thought it was 'an improvisation followed by 12XU'. Of 'Figures in Crumbs' Paul R said >>>>>to rate "in esse" and not have picked this up is an interesting decision the contrast between the original and remixed version is rather noticeable.p I've just never seen it in a shop! Then again I tend to forget the Erasure section... How could anyone not at least check out 'In Esse' after the genius of 'Ab Ovo' - yeah its more dense and noisy and monolithic and chaotic - and who knows, maybe mashed up in the mix of 'Soli' somewhere are an Erasure Cd or ten or twenty (all at once)????????? Who knows????? (probably not Bruce) I'll get to it one of these days! Its the only official Wir(e) I haven't heard now so gimme a break!!!!!!! And Erasure are shit Dome 4 or no Dome 4!!!!!!!! Ian asked >>>>>>what was 'I Saw You'? As Paul says but in addition to London there was a performance in Austria organised by Peter Rehberg (Pita / Mego label http://www.mego.at). Wir made some noise there, and did a session for ORF (Vien). Gil Luz asked >>>>>>>How did Wire change your life? They are still changing it. Such a massive question... someone suggested that another Wire book would be welcome and this question could fill one in itself, especially if we all contributed something! I'm serious (for once) if anyone wants to contribute something to a Wire tribute type book or fanzine then I'd be willing to edit it, publish it and all that. btw I've never seen the comic book geek from Simpsons but I am not at all embarrassed (nor do I consider Freudian anal guff) when I confess that I know a lot about Wire. :-) Ignorance is no virtue. Antennas my currency! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:16:57 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Creation/NME Mediocre Dross Awards Paul, << //////// quick question i've been meaning to ask for some time. i thought blur's "13" was a reasonable attempt to do something different in a way not a million miles from what radiohead tried. not perfect , but pretty good (as was "blur"). << Agreed, though 'Blur' was a lot more better than 13 - also a deliberate distancing from Britpop...bet oasis wish they'd done something similar now.... >>yet blur never quite get taken seriously whereas thom and co were treated as if they'd just done something unbelievably original with kid a. << I think Blur and 13 were both treated pretty seriously - though stylistically they were a bit reliant on American lo-fi. I've got plenty of time for Blur though. >>my thoughts were that if your frame of reference was travis then kid a was probably an artistic tour de force. but to anyone who'd heard even a little of recent electronica then it was hardly anything mind-blowing. i really think a lot of this is down to the way radiohead have presented themselves/been marketed , to me it isn't half as clever as they'd like it to be.<< I think Radiohead have had a better reception than Blur because their albums somehow seem more deliberate - better conceived, sequenced and assembled without filler. And again, I'll defend Kid A to the hilt for the overall package. While it contains 'electronica' whose origins are traceable, it also contains moments that could only be Radiohead. The fact that a big rock band, following up an album that is already being hailed as one of the greatest of all time, should decide to operate like a production collective is a pretty remarkable thing to do. >>appareently the next 'head album is more commercial and meanwhile damon is getting into world music. neither fill me with much hope. << I've probably heard about half of the songs from the next album in live versions. Yes, more song-based - but I suspect the resulting album will be closer to Kid A than OK Computer. As for WorldBlur, I didn't care much for Music is my Radar. Hopefully Graham Coxon won't let Damon get too far off the plot. >>interesting to see how kid a will be viewed in a couple of years maybe?<< I suspect its star will rise, while OK Computer may slip a little..... >>other newish brit acts with credibility intact? pj harvey , << on good form, if too heavily Patti Smith-fixated >>chemical bros ,<< overbearing to me. >> death in vegas<< liked the Iggy one. Dirge was an uncredited rip off of an 18-year old indie single. >> , leftfield << peaked some time ago >>, pulp ,<< regained some credibility on the last 'miserable' album >> SFA , gorkys , << certainly crediblye, if somewhat on the fringes of things >>stereolab << Need to get out of noodle-mode >>, gomez << can't get excited about Gomez. Hippies, basically >>, primal scream ,<< Xtrmntr is great - but hard to see where they'll go now >> orbital ?<< a band that pass me by Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:21:44 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Bruce's 50Drill and a book in itself? Graeme, << How could anyone not at least check out 'In Esse' after the genius of 'Ab Ovo' -<< I did. It cost 99p. >> yeah its more dense and noisy and monolithic and chaotic - and who knows, maybe mashed up in the mix of 'Soli' somewhere are an Erasure Cd or ten or twenty (all at once)????????? Who knows????? >> Much as I love Bruce, I have to ask myself what the point is of In Esse. It really is unlistenable. I'm trying to think of a use for it. Maybe that is the point.... Mark ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #51 ******************************