From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #50 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 04 : Number 050 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] RE: The Rez ["Wilson, Paul" ] RE: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! ["giluz" ] RE: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] How did Wire change your life? [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #49 [Ian Calder ] RE: [idealcopy] wire ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] Nu Metal Express [Ian Grant ] [idealcopy] Figures in Crumbs [Michael Flaherty ] RE: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! [Rick Hindman ] Re: [idealcopy] Figures in Crumbs [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #49 [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) ["Stephen Jackson" ] [idealcopy] Creation/NME Mediocre Dross Awards [Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] RE: The Rez Ideal Copyists~~ So I just got the aforementioned CD in the mail a couple of days ago. While I was able to run some of he movies at work, it wasn't until I loaded Quicktime and it's newest plugins, that the whole CD worked! What a fun CD! I loved seeing all of the videos and interviews! The FAQ film was particularly nice, BTW. And so while my main sights are on the Residents right now, I'd like to say "Get this disk if you don't own it yet!!!" you won't regret it at all! Looking forward to more of the disk! RJH Yes, the CD is OK, but the video is FAR, FAR better - for a start, it doesn't hiss as much, and is much less messing about, AND you get proper size images on the TV. Glad to hear where your main sights are. I'm eagerly awaiting the Euro release of the Icky Flix DVD (which should be any day now). I'd recommend this one to ANYONE who has any half decent musical taste. BTW Have you checked out The Moles web site? www.theresidents.co.uk ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:59:17 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! > Subject: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! > > > Ideal Copyists~~ > > So I just got the aforementioned CD in the mail a > couple of days ago. While I was able to run some of he > movies at work, it wasn't until I loaded Quicktime and > it's newest plugins, that the whole CD worked! Which CD are you on about? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:12:29 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) > You should never expect bands that occupy the mainstream to be > artistically > satisfying! Exactly. Hence Colin's words on totallyradio about Wire being lucky that they didn't have a hit record. It's too hard to do art on the one hand and satisfy the industry's demands on the other.We've got more than thirty years of rock music industry history to prove it - except for some utopian instances in the 60's, it just doesn't work - just like you can't expect a successful Hollywood director to do a revolutionary art film (or even a non-revolutionary conventional but still quite good film). There are lots of people out there that think they combine the 'high' with the 'low'. But in fact this is much harder than anything else and rarely succeeds, regardless of anyone's good intentions. Give me an example of a band/artist that gained commercial success and didn't sell out (and I'll give you 10 others that prove the contrary). cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:41:37 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] How did Wire change your life? " Speaking of totallyradio, I think it would be nice to start a new thread as to the "How did Wire change your life?" question " Well, musically, at least, it opened my mind to a wider scheme of things, sneaking in through a skewed pop back door before I realised what was happening. Through Wire I got into Dome/Swim and therefore now have a largish collection of experimental/post-e music. I guess this may or may not have happened without Wire, but the fact is they played a part. The odd thing is, I now tend to prefer the solo works, such as Hox and Immersion to Wire... go figure. :) Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:54:36 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Wire " At the risk of appearing equally pedantic Doesn't Wire (or at least Colin) consider Wire to be the Gotobed, Lewis, Newman, Gilbert lineup exclusively? " Yes, Wire is C/R/B/G. C/B/G is 3ir, which they consider a separate (and now totally defunct) entity. At the risk of being Mr. Pedantic on a stick, both Paul and Graeme were half-right. Wire did not effectively exist during '91 - '99. The sole exception was Drill, but that was a one-off for Bruce's 50th and it could be argued that Wire still wasn't functioning at the time, just playing together for a one-off performance. Other performances were 3ir, or that interview for Select magazine, which IIRC was quite amusing. (Colin: "There's no such thing as credible pop. Pop is Whigfield". -- Blimey, how do I remember these things? :) " I got an exclusive on this when I interviewed > Bruce at the Hacienda, but funnily enough still > haven't heard 'Figures in Crumbs'. " The original Erasure track is truly awful. 3ir don't bother with it, and if you removed the Erasure bloke's singing, you probably wouldn't know it was an Erasure remix! It's quite a good track and worth picking up on the likes of eBay for a quid or so (like I did!)... the riff is great. Those of you who've got/seen the Wire video FAQ -- it's the bit at the end when the credits come up. " I think he means that [Wire] will be approaching the idea of 'being a band' from relatively unconventional angles, " Not least the fact that they live many miles apart! The idea of 'democracy' in/within Wire is a very good one. This doesn't mean watering down of ideals, more that everyone has an input and they don't end up in the same situation as in 1987! Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:34:53 +0000 From: Ian Calder Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #49 >Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:55:07 +0000 (GMT)>From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= >Subject: [idealcopy] Oh No Not So Mr Newman! > >On Totally Radio Colin stated that Wire had not >functioned as Wire or met up between 91 and 99. At the >risk of appearing pedantic, I must correct this - >Wir did 'I Saw You' and 'Vien' in 93 then in 95 went >on to remix Erasure as a favour to Daniel Miller at >Mute. I got an exclusive on this when I interviewed >Bruce at the Hacienda, but funnily enough still >haven't heard 'Figures in Crumbs'. 'Vien' I know and like a lot and I'm aware of the Erasure remix... but what was 'I Saw You'? Would appreciate if anyone can explain. thanks, Ian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:14:54 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] How did Wire change your life? Wire's importance for me is primarily their attitude. They were one of a line of bands that taught me that your first commitment as an artist is for yourself, i.e. you primarily please yourself. Another thing was that punk amateur attitude - you don't have to be a qualified expert musician to do 'serious' music. The fact that Wire have reformed just now came at just the right time for me personally and musically (I already commented on that in my idealcopy project notes at ~swim's non-space). Yeah, it could have been any of those other bands with that same attitude, but it wasn't, and there's not much of them to start with anyway. So Wire's music has certainly been there for me as one of my primary influences. As to the solo projects, I'm really not into Bruce's and Graham's ventures, but Colin's pre and post ~swim stuff is quite significant, for the same reasons. It all has to do with the seriousness of doing the job, without being pompous and self-centred - music is what's important here, and making/playing the music is the job that needs to be done. Add to that the great sense of humour and irony that is so dominant in their work and you get the perfect balance. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:31:02 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: RE: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) There are lots of people out there that think they combine the 'high' with the 'low'. But in fact this is much harder than anything else and rarely succeeds, regardless of anyone's good intentions. Give me an example of a band/artist that gained commercial success and didn't sell out (and I'll give you 10 others that prove the contrary). ////// it is undeniably true that there is a lot of dross in the world (talking of which , i saw the new manics video at lunchtime. oh dear oh dear). but the fact a lot of artists start good then go bad shouldn't totally devalue what they did in the first place. i think we'd be very fortunate if there was a good act for every 10 bad ones. but i still think you can make good art sell , i won't write a list but there's loads. the worry is that list wouldn't contain much from the last 5 years.p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:52:22 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) > ////// it is undeniably true that there is a lot of dross in the > world (talking of which , i saw the new manics video at > lunchtime. oh dear oh dear). but the fact a lot of artists start > good then go bad shouldn't totally devalue what they did in the > first place. I didn't mean that - but I do mean that the ones that started good and keep doing good stuff over a long period of time gain even more respect and admiration from me. i think we'd be very fortunate if there was a good > act for every 10 bad ones. but i still think you can make good > art sell , i won't write a list but there's loads. the worry is > that list wouldn't contain much from the last 5 years.p There's no doubt about it that this can be done and that people do have a far better taste than those other people that shove crap down their throats (i.e., industry executives). The problem is mainly distribution, and could be bypassed in various ways. Lots of ~swim releases, for example, could sell much more that they do, if they were distributed by a major record label. But artists signed to ~swim prefer to keep a relatively low profile just so they won't have to compromise with the big labels' demands (and I think ~swim are excellent as distributors - I managed to find ~swim releases in lots of record shops [outside Israel, that is]). Artists that hold the view that the system could be changed from the inside, i.e. via a major record label, are usually discouraged. The fact that you yourself said that you couldn't think of many examples like these done in the last 5 years just say it all: The music industry is bigger and more centralised than ever before, and the chances of doing off-mainstream acts through it are really low. In the past, let's say in the 60's and in the punk era, lots of non-commercial bands have been signed to major labels, but that was mainly because a commercial phenomenon that wasn't caused, predicted or understood by the major labels occurred ("We just signed a new band which is gonna be a big hit: they're a bunch of hippies with long hair and boy are they ugly - they're gonna sell big time" - MGM record executive after signing Zappa and the Mothers of Invention). The more control the major labels have, the less chance you have for a truly authentic art form to emerge. Nowadays they have more control and money than they ever did, and as Colin said: "The music industry only allows one Radiohead per year", and with all due respect I wouldn't consider Radiohead as more than a nice enough band, nothing really mind blowing there. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:58:47 -0000 From: "ian jackson" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] wire paul wrote : but the fact a lot of artists start good then go bad shouldn't totally devalue what they did in the first place. absolutely paul, during conversations, i don't know how many bands i've said i'm into and then added the coda "early stuff, like". there are few exceptions to this, Wire being an obvious one. ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:02:10 +0000 From: Ian Grant Subject: [idealcopy] Nu Metal Express At 04:30 15/02/2001 -0500, Tim wrote: >My gripe is really with the NME. The only left-of-centre music journal >left is fast becoming an inkie version of Kerrang! Okay. I've been waiting. Nobody else is going to do it, though. Are they? :) Look, it's confession time. I own Deicide records. Morbid Angel records. Napalm Death, Obituary, Sepultura, Prong, Bathory. That kind of thing. While some of these are clearly nonsense (albeit vastly entertaining nonsense) and are only retrieved from the record collection for an occasional laugh at my past idiocy, one or two are every bit as valid as the classics of any other genre. Anyone want to argue with "Roots" by Sepultura? I can't disown metal, any more than I can disown hip-hop, d+b or anything else that's spawned records that have deeply affected me. Nor, quite frankly, can I disguise my delight at the fact that metal bands have *finally* ditched guitar solos, stupid hair, and general widdliness. Certainly, this has resulted in great heaps of truly wretched, tedious bands - you all know the names. It's also resulted in Soulfly and Slipknot, who both rock like bastards. So, chin up. It's a great time for music. It always is, if you've got the enthusiasm to seek stuff out. The last Wu-Tang album's an extraordinary return to form. The imminent Ed Rush & Optical release is stupendous. The Silo record's pretty good, even if I currently prefer "Instar". And there's more to metal than Limp sodding Bizkit. Cheers, ig. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:13:49 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Figures in Crumbs >/////// graeme , to rate "in esse" and not have picked this up is an >interesting decision. you really should get a copy , i doubt it'd set you >back much. the contrast between the original and remixed version is rather >noticeable.p While I agree he should check "F in C" out (why not?), and the remix is noticable, I don't find his decision that interesting. Like graeme, I rate "in esse" (he and I being among that small group of Bruce diehards here :) )and I think "F in C" is the worst Wire related thing in my collection ... indeed it's only because of the Wir connection that I bother to keep it. Just thinking about it makes me cringe. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:42:52 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) Paul, << i won't write a list but there's loads. the worry is that list wouldn't contain much from the last 5 years.p >> It would contain two entries from the past 5 years, from the same band - OK Computer and Kid A. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:23:11 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! Is this the Wire CD-R? Does it have anything not avilable on the video? Is it better than the video? giluz > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Hindman [mailto:r_j_h@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:23 PM > To: giluz > Subject: RE: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! > > > > --- giluz wrote: > > > Subject: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! > > > > > > > > > Ideal Copyists~~ > > > > > > So I just got the aforementioned CD in the mail a > > > couple of days ago. While I was able to run some > > of he > > > movies at work, it wasn't until I loaded Quicktime > > and > > > it's newest plugins, that the whole CD worked! > > > > Which CD are you on about? > > I just got the "Free Speech and More TV" CD-R in the > mail a couple of days ago. > > It's pretty cool! > > R > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:33:55 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: RE: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! > Is this the Wire CD-R? Does it have anything not > avilable on the video? Is > it better than the video? Well, you guys got me again! I was not aware of the existence of a Wire video, so I can't compare them to the CD-R. I was looking on the WMO site and see no mention of it. What is the title, BTW? PS - I just bought a CD single of 'Manscape' on Ebay for $2 plus $2 p/h. Pretty good deal if it's in as good shape as advertised! Hasta~ RJH ===== - ----------------------------------------------------------- "Learn to handle hot things, keep your knives sharp, and above all, have a good time. - -Julia Child - ----------------------------------------------------------- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:44:13 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Figures in Crumbs In a message dated 15/02/01 16:38:25 GMT Standard Time, mflaher3@triton.cc.il.us writes: > and I think "F in C" is the worst Wire related thing in my collection ... > indeed it's only because of the Wir connection that I bother to keep it. > > ////// sorry michael but i think it's really good , and doubly entertaining > given the dodgy erasure track they started with. > > worst wire-related release? parade ground spring immediately to mind. and > my copy of "in esse " is unlikely to ever need replacing due to excessive > use.p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:45:03 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) In a message dated 15/02/01 16:42:52 GMT Standard Time, Mark Bursa writes: > It would contain two entries from the past 5 years, from the same band - OK > Computer and Kid A. > > Mark > ////// do you mean that's all? p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:48:27 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #49 In a message dated 15/02/01 13:47:07 GMT Standard Time, i.calder@surrey.ac.uk writes: > 'Vien' I know and like a lot and I'm aware of the Erasure remix... but what > was 'I Saw You'? Would appreciate if anyone can explain. > > thanks, > Ian > > > > /////// it was a one-off gig at the clapham grand in 1992(?) , on the night before the election john major won. i was there, there were short sets by a number of artists. i think it went piquet/aer/dome/wall of guitarists/wir/stretcheads. excellent night , sadly the only wir performance i ever saw (if you don't count the manscape tour).p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:26:15 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) Paul, In terms of music that has been artistically challenging yet highly successful in that it has crossed over to a mass audience..... I can't think of anything else from the last 5 years....any ideas? << ////// do you mean that's all? p >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:51:42 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! Excerpts from mail: 15-Feb-101 RE: [idealcopy] FSAMTV! by Rick Hindman@yahoo.com > Well, you guys got me again! I was not aware of the > existence of a Wire video, so I can't compare them to > the CD-R. > > I was looking on the WMO site and see no mention of it. > What is the title, BTW? RJH - you must have missed the great video controversy of '99. A dedicated Wire fan - let's call him Mr. U - was sick of all the low-quality video copies which were floating around. So Mr. U managed to get a hold of some early generation versions and had them compiled onto a super-VHS tape. He then sold copies to recover his expenses for the remastering. Anyhow, the video doesn't really have a name, as far as I know. The details are all given on the Wire Page. If you're interested in it, then email me off the list. (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "Years of dealing with your kind has taught me patience." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:33:04 -0000 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) >In terms of music that has been artistically challenging yet highly >successful in that it has crossed over to a mass audience..... I can't think >of anything else from the last 5 years....any ideas? SFA? Basically poppy psychedelia but I think 'artistically challenging' in the confines of bass, drums, keys, vox. I love them. Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:42:59 +0000 From: Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] Creation/NME Mediocre Dross Awards MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: Tim, You really should read Dave Cavanagh's Creation Records book (My Magpoie Eyes are hungry for the Prize). Charts the whole story...brilliantly researched too. I am and its brilliant. A real eye opener. The Creation heyday, I guess 89-94 was when I was a student and we just thought Creation was the best label ever and dug the music but never realised what a bunch of f**k ups they all were! Never realised just how bad the MBV situation was....always wanted to be in that band but completely changed my mind now! Although I met Debbie Goodge last year and she was really nice and well-adjusted and really sociable. As for Primal Scream and the House of Love..........brrrrrr! Apparently McGee hates the book and is championing another shoddy Creation history book written by a complete dimwit called Paolo Hewitt who has shite paul weller hair and wrote a crappy cash-in book about Oasis. If you look at his website poptones.com he slags off Cavanaghs book with such venom, and then starts ranting about how much he hates Martin Carr (Boo Radleys)..... You should never expect bands that occupy the mainstream to be artistically satisfying! Mark I don't! Its just if the NME is supposed to be a barmoter of cutting edge non-mainstream music then have at look at the winners of their 'Brat Awards': Fatboy Slim (He wakes up every morning with Zoe Ball....at least we don't have to anymore), Marilyn Manson (Alice Cooper without the tunes) , Coldplay (Oh No...Whats This...a ruthlessly marketed bunch of slop) , U2 (hello is it 1987?) , Oasis (Are you still here?) , Eminem (Oh his lyrics are so clever he's the 21st century Bob Dylan...NO HE IS NOT! He is a whining little tosser with blond highlights and a chip-shop on his shoulder...) , All Saints (Oh just split up and be gone you know you want to) Kelis (and now I'm going to do a tribute to Jimi Hendrix....) , Badly Drawn Boy (Wow...dressing like a dosser is so cool) and Radiohead (Just discovered the Aphex Twin 8 years after everyone else) Thats f**kin terrible. Thats the biggest bunch of sh*t ever and it scares the sh*t out of me if that is what is considered the cutting edge of music in this country.....a load of expertly marketed souless, artless, musically bankrupt crap. I know there is a lot of interesting stuff going on in Britain but it clearly now has no national music press to support it anymore. NME will be as pointless as RollingStone by this time next year. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #50 ******************************