From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #48 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 04 : Number 048 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Exploded Views [Mark Short ] [idealcopy] re: wire (nicky) [Ian Grant ] Re: [idealcopy] Exploded Views [John Roberts ] Re: [idealcopy] re: wire (nicky) [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] OT: re: wire (nicky) [Ian Grant ] [idealcopy] Re: OT: re: wire (nicky) [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] OT: Videos [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] [idealcopy] A Question and a Comment [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: re: McCarthy/Stereolab [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) [timrobinson@cwcom.net] [idealcopy] OT: The State of British Music ["Ciscon, Ray" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Exploded Views PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > > ////// somebody said on here once that the band "weren't happy" with that book. i always wondered if it was the cd or the text they didn't like. p The text is mostly interviews with the band members, so they shouldn't take exception to that, unless the transcripts are inaccurate. The presentation of the book may have caused offence; it's cheap and nasty. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:07:49 +0000 From: Ian Grant Subject: [idealcopy] re: wire (nicky) >Nicky Wire is so called because he's skinny about 6 foot 8. I once read an >interview where NW was slagging off Wire good and proper, so his name is >deffo not a tribute. Yes, I remember that. In an interview around the time of "Generation Terrorists", Wire were mentioned in fairly disparaging terms. However, it's important to point out that, at the time, MSP were pretty bloody disparaging about everything that wasn't Public Enemy or Guns 'n' Roses. In particular, anything that valued experimentation over reaching a mass audience was regarded with a sneer, even if MSP themselves had taken inspiration from the highly politicised and marginalised likes of Big Flame (now *there* was a bloody band...) and McCarthy. Later on, however, I seem to recall a classic MSP u-turn on the subject. When "The Holy Bible" was released, I believe that they mentioned having been listening to Wire during the recording. By that time, of course, their attitude towards reaching a mass audience was rather different, so principles wouldn't have got in the way. As for the MSPs themselves...well, god bless 'em, they still make my heart beat a bit faster sometimes. I've raged against everything with them, worn a "NIHILIST ART WHORE" t-shirt on unfriendly streets for them, been hurt by their defeats, felt their losses, understood their tiredness, been lifted by the occasional return to form, and so on. I've grown up with them, basically. Although I hate their *style* of music with a passion, I love the MSPs. There aren't enough contradictions in pop, anyway. Cheers, ig. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:36:44 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Exploded Views I think I've said this on the list before. Those books/singles are bootlegs. The Cartel/Rough Trade used to distribute them in this country until various groups and labels found out what was going on. I didn't realise that the label kept repressing them. I thought they were produced on a hit and run basis. They produced an LP at one point of deleted and rare Fields of the Nephilim tracks which got them into a spot of bother with Situation 2/Beggars Banquet once. John - --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 12 Feb 2001 5:58:05 PM > Eastern Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > > << Just don't pay over the odds. It's still > available from teh publishers. It > cost me 30,000 Lire including postage (about $15) > > ////// somebody said on here once that the band > "weren't happy" with that book. i always wondered if > it was the cd or the text they didn't like. p Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:15:49 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: young people these days, eh? > /////// sorry , i just hate it. paul weller , travis , stereophonics , > manics , oasis , the lot of 'em. i just can't be bothered with it any more > , i think i've heard every permutation on the dad rock idea. there just has > to be more to music than that.p Amen. Manics especially, if only because in search engines, music databases, etc., a search on Wire brings up more refs to the eponymous long streak of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllogerochwyrndrobyllantisilliogogogoch piss than it does to the real thing. Speaking of the degraded nature of popular taste, the talk of Colin's voice reminded me of a story. A friend of a friend bought the First Letter a few years back on spec - not realising it had anything to do with Wire. Apparently he hates Colin's voice more than anything else in the world, and took it straight back to the shop! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:26:48 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: young people these days, eh? > Speaking of the degraded nature of popular taste, the talk of Colin's > voice reminded me of a story. A friend of a friend bought the First > Letter a few years back on spec - not realising it had anything to do > with Wire. Apparently he hates Colin's voice more than anything else in > the world, and took it straight back to the shop! I gave a few Wire albums to a friend of mine, and he really liked it, but he seriously thought that Colin sang on all tracks and was amazed by his voice's diversity, especially when it came to the tracks Bruce sings on. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:52:41 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] OffTopic - book recommendation Way off topic, but I still think it has some connection to the list, since it deals with the music industry. Bruce Sterling's Zeitgeist is about a guy that runs a girl band, the sort of spice girls girl band, where it's all about money and image and the girls themselves have no talent whatsoever. the band's called G7, and ppropriately each girl is from a different G7 state. The guy that runs the band have lots of political underground connections with spys, assasins, drug smugglers, etc. Imagine terrorists, guerila fighters and drug dealers having philosophical discussions about Foucaut and Derida; smuggled vaccum tubes from old Russian nuclear missile bases are used for amps; lots of music industry hillarious jokes, Plus lots of stuff about Y2K, a bit of ESP, and there you have it. One of the best novels I've read that deal with our post-modern turn of the century time. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:19:43 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] re: wire (nicky) Ig, << In particular, anything that valued experimentation over reaching a mass audience was regarded with a sneer, even if MSP themselves had taken inspiration from the highly politicised and marginalised likes of Big Flame (now *there* was a bloody band...) << Indeed. More old mates of mine. Greg (guitarist) came from Blackpool and was at Manchester Uni while BF were going. Used to stay at his flat when I went there for gigs. Entire philosophy (and sound) was based on Josef K, including the built-in obsolescence. They were only ever going to do one album, and stayed true to that. The singer went on to become The Great Leap Forward, which wasn't. >>and McCarthy. >> ...who became Stereolab. What was that about "valuing experimentation over reaching a mass audience"? Tim Gane reckoned slinky French female vocals over a krautrock backing was a better way to get across "political" messages than punky ranting. Shame the Manics didn't follow him for a bit longer.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:59:04 +0000 From: Ian Grant Subject: [idealcopy] OT: re: wire (nicky) Mark wrote: >Indeed. More old mates of mine. Greg (guitarist) came from Blackpool and was >at Manchester Uni while BF were going. Used to stay at his flat when I went >there for gigs. Entire philosophy (and sound) was based on Josef K, including >the built-in obsolescence. They were only ever going to do one album, and >stayed true to that. BF were magnificent, whatever they were based upon. To this day, I don't believe that anyone's made a more complete, self-contained record than the 7" version of "Cubist Pop Manifesto". Absolute perfection...and, in its own furious way, a great, great pop record. > >>and McCarthy. >> > >...who became Stereolab. What was that about "valuing experimentation over >reaching a mass audience"? Tim Gane reckoned slinky French female vocals over >a krautrock backing was a better way to get across "political" messages than >punky ranting. Shame the Manics didn't follow him for a bit longer.... :) As is my way, I despised Stereolab for years, then concluded that I liked them after all. So, even though I'm thirty now, the Manics' influence clearly hasn't entirely worn off.... Funnily enough, The Wire mentioned that he'd been listening to McCarthy again recently. They were a fine band, as I recall. Capable of putting very complex, thought-provoking ideas into pop songs so that, although the political content didn't always sit completely comfortably with the music, the results were rarely less than stimulating. Cheers, ig. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:14:22 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: OT: re: wire (nicky) Ig, << :) As is my way, I despised Stereolab for years, then concluded that I liked them after all. << I really liked Stereolab at first - they peaked for me with Mars Audiac Quintet, which remains one of my favourite '90s albums. From Emperor Tomato Ketchup onwards the "french lounge" influence started to overwhelm the motorik krautock elements and they became too noodly for their own good. Some line-up changes (bass and drums changed about then) made a big difference, and not a positive one. Still always worth a listen though. >> Funnily enough, The Wire mentioned that he'd been listening to McCarthy again recently. They were a fine band, as I recall. Capable of putting very complex, thought-provoking ideas into pop songs so that, although the political content didn't always sit completely comfortably with the music, the results were rarely less than stimulating. >> Saw them at the Garage once, around 1990. Interesting, though the ranting was a bit wearing. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:42:53 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Videos http://www.epitonic.com/video/index.html Interesting collection. Chris The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:00:03 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] A Question and a Comment Question: Does anyone remember exactly where and when in the film "High Fidelity" you can see Pink Flag? I recently rented it and even in slow motion I couldn't pick it out. Comment: Maybe what Colin dislikes isn't singing so much as lyric writing. Pure speculation on my part, but based on his comments that the words don't really matter and Graham's comment that when Colin contacted him to reform Wire, he suspects that what he (Colin) was most interested in was reforming their songwriting partnership (i.e., Graham writes the lyrics). Or maybe not. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:08:25 -0000 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] OT: re: McCarthy/Stereolab 'Red Sleeping Beauty' - McCarthy, classic pop song. 'Mars Audiac Quintet' - Stereolab, classic pop album. Tim Gane's been involved in some good stuff, hasn't he?? A nod of approval in all your general directions. coo-coo ca-choo, ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:59:11 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Exploded views "////// somebody said on here once that the band "weren't happy" with that book. i always wondered if it was the cd or the text they didn't like. p" Presumably both. The performance isn't that great and the words are mediocre. Most of the passable/good text is directly lifted from Eden's book. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:09:14 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: re: McCarthy/Stereolab << 'Red Sleeping Beauty' - McCarthy, classic pop song. 'Mars Audiac Quintet' - Stereolab, classic pop album. Tim Gane's been involved in some good stuff, hasn't he?? A nod of approval in all your general directions. coo-coo ca-choo, ian.s.j. ////// i really liked stereolab , but got bored around "dots & loops". like , how many pretty much similar albums do you need? and having now heard neu! , it's very obvious where their ideas came from. good live though. i picked up a mccarthy album last year (called something like " the meek shall inherit the earth") and it didn't do much for me. bit generic , whereas s/lab sounded very fresh when they first came out. and a great running gag is the prices stereolab records fetch. i often wonder if the band are sitting there dribbling the "rarities" out at #40 a single when they need some beer money. which would not be very marxist.p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:43:58 GMT From: timrobinson@cwcom.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) Its worse than that! Don't worry about BritPop or Stadium Indie-rock because its long gone. British music scene is in a much worse state than either of you realise. Biggest UK bands are now the mawkish Coldplay and the dreadful Badly Drawn Boy (beardy meandering baggy-arsed crap). Worse still, we're stuck in another 'US Invasion'! The dumbed-down beyond all recognition NME now hails Limp Bizkit, Eminem, slick over-produced pop like Steps and (yuck) 'nu-metal' like Queens of the Stone Age as the saviours of rock and roll. Its just so.....Boring! Almost as bad as 1987! >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:47:55 EST >From: MarkBursa@aol.com >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) > >Paul, > ><< /////// sorry , i just hate it. paul weller , travis , stereophonics , >manics , oasis , the lot of 'em. i just can't be bothered with it any more , >i think i've heard every permutation on the dad rock idea. there just has to >be more to music than that.p >> >> > >Don't get me wrong....I'm as bored with Brit Pop/Dad Rock/whatever as you >are. But even the dullest of those bands released a couple of half-decent >singles. Not that much of it figures on the Bursa stereo these days. I don't >count Teenage Fanclub or The Auteurs (which do remain on rotation) as >BritDadPlop. > >Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:20:41 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: [idealcopy] OT: The State of British Music Tim wrote: Its worse than that! Don't worry about BritPop or Stadium Indie-rock because its long gone. British music scene is in a much worse state than either of you realise. Biggest UK bands are now the mawkish Coldplay and the dreadful Badly Drawn Boy (beardy meandering baggy-arsed crap). Worse still, we're stuck in another 'US Invasion'! The dumbed-down beyond all recognition NME now hails Limp Bizkit, Eminem, slick over-produced pop like Steps and (yuck) 'nu-metal' like Queens of the Stone Age as the saviours of rock and roll. Its just so.....Boring! Almost as bad as 1987! ============ I, and perhaps many, Americans have not heard anything by Coldplay or Badly Drawn Boy... what or who do they sound like? What happened in 1987? First time I've heard the description 'nu-metal' used to describe that most despicable spawn of satan, rap-metal! Pardon me for what may be 'stupid' questions, but enquiring minds want to know! Thanks, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:09:57 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: The State of British Music On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Ciscon, Ray wrote: > over-produced pop like Steps and (yuck) 'nu-metal' like Queens of the Stone > Age as the saviours of rock and roll. Its just so.....Boring! > First time I've heard the description 'nu-metal' used to describe that most > despicable spawn of satan, rap-metal! I've heard "nu-metal" to describe rap-metal (which indeed sucks greatly) - but I don't think Queens of the Stone Age are rap-metal (Haven't heard 'em, though). I believe they're more "stoner metal" (i.e., loud guitars, slow tempi, long meandering solos in sometimes non-metal lead tones). But as I said, I haven't heard 'em. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::beliefs are ideas going bald:: __Francis Picabia__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:50:34 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: The State of British Music ============ I, and perhaps many, Americans have not heard anything by Coldplay or Badly Drawn Boy... what or who do they sound like? ////// well coldplay are like a dreary , watered-down radiohead. BDB is slightly better (not hard...) , sort of dopey singer-songwriter stuff. both try very hard to "emote". > What happened in 1987? > ///// er , nothing. the UK charts were dominated by pap (stock aitken waterman etc) and indie bands didn't have a hope in hell of getting on the radio or tv. then came the pixies , who almost did it. then nirvana , who did. > First time I've heard the description 'nu-metal' used to describe that most > despicable spawn of satan, rap-metal! > //// i thought that was the americanism that got introduced here. maybe not? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:38:35 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] re: wire (nicky) On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > >>and McCarthy. >> > > ...who became Stereolab. What was that about "valuing experimentation over > reaching a mass audience"? Tim Gane reckoned slinky French female vocals over > a krautrock backing was a better way to get across "political" messages than > punky ranting. Shame the Manics didn't follow him for a bit longer.... Right: the charts were just full of krautock with French vocals at the time. And the two McCarthy recordings I have are anything but punky ranting, musically: they're rather Smiths-y - far more apparently "commercial" at the time than Stereolab. But hey - everyone's got the right to like and not like bands. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::glibby glop gloopy nibby nobby noopy la la la la lo:: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:08:04 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] wire (nicky) tIM, << Its worse than that! Don't worry about BritPop or Stadium Indie-rock because its long gone. British music scene is in a much worse state than either of you realise.<< Erm...I think Mr Rabjohn and I are both fully aware how bad things are. More to the point, do we sound American!?!?! >> Biggest UK bands are now the mawkish Coldplay and the dreadful Badly Drawn Boy (beardy meandering baggy-arsed crap). Worse still, we're stuck in another 'US Invasion'! The dumbed-down beyond all recognition NME now hails Limp Bizkit, Eminem, slick over-produced pop like Steps and (yuck) 'nu-metal' like Queens of the Stone Age as the saviours of rock and roll. Its just so.....Boring! Almost as bad as 1987! >> Far, far, far worse than 1987, believe me. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:25:26 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] re: wire (nicky) Jeff, << Right: the charts were just full of krautock with French vocals at the time. And the two McCarthy recordings I have are anything but punky ranting, musically: they're rather Smiths-y - far more apparently "commercial" at the time than Stereolab.<< Maybe so. My only experience of McCarthy was seeing them live, which was, I assure you, choc full of punky ranting :-) My point is that a less confrontational stance was more likely to get a message across. the macro-economic tract that comprises the lyrics to Ping Pong, one of Stereolab's most commercial singles, would have been less effective if delivered in punky-rant mode. >> But hey - everyone's got the right to like and not like bands. >> No they haven't ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:35:47 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: The State of British Music Paul, << ////// well coldplay are like a dreary , watered-down radiohead. << More like a dreary, watered-down Travis. Object, of course, of Alan McGee's famous "bedwetting music" comment. >>BDB is slightly better (not hard...) , sort of dopey singer-songwriter stuff. both try very hard to "emote". >> I have to say that if pushed, I'd opt for Coldplay over BDB, who's just a lazy-arsed slacker whose woolly hat must stink by now. > What happened in 1987? > ///// er , nothing. the UK charts were dominated by pap (stock aitken waterman etc) and indie bands didn't have a hope in hell of getting on the radio or tv. then came the pixies , who almost did it. then nirvana , who did.<< 1987 was not the best year I grant you, but it was a damn sight more interesting than 2001. Sure, the charts were crap, but there was life in the indie world on both sides of the Atlantic. And 1987 was a long time before Nirvana! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 04:14:34 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: The State of British Music More like a dreary, watered-down Travis. Object, of course, of Alan McGee's famous "bedwetting music" comment. //// a splendid description , couldn't put it better myself. I have to say that if pushed, I'd opt for Coldplay over BDB, who's just a lazy-arsed slacker whose woolly hat must stink by now. ///// no , i find that coldplay guy supremely irritating. not that BDB is any great shakes. 1987 was not the best year I grant you, but it was a damn sight more interesting than 2001. Sure, the charts were crap, but there was life in the indie world on both sides of the Atlantic. And 1987 was a long time before Nirvana! ///// the pity is that in 87/88 the great bands couldn't get any exposure. now you have dozens of tv channels and nothing interesting on any of them. i meant nirvana came eventually. wonder if another decent guitar band could happen? i guess so , even if at times it seems unlikely. p ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #48 ******************************