From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #40 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, February 6 2001 Volume 04 : Number 040 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] End of text quiz- ["Bryan Olson" ] Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock ["Stephen JC Sheen" ] [idealcopy] Wireviews ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock [John Roberts ] RE: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Producer/Engineer ["Ciscon, Ray" ] [idealcopy] Downriver/ King Mob ["Cambra, Robert" ] [idealcopy] college radio on the internet ["Alyce Ornella" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] End of text quiz- I have to agree, it was a very good book. . I > wish more bands had books like that; ie written by > people that care about them! > Not just that, but more books that are culled primarily from intensive, probing interviews. It was really Wire in their own words. > - Graham Lewis is one intense MF-er!!! > > -Bruce Gilbert is right behind him! I've always enjoyed the solo stuff and the influence both of them brought to Wire. Then, I'm an experimental music buff (among other things). I just love the Dome recordings. > > -Malka and Colin are married, and not just in the same > band. > And doesn't it mention they have a child? I wonder if the child is so musically inclined (or how could their child not be, with both parents musicians?) > - The story behind "Up to the Sun/Vivid Riot of Red" > was so amazing I got goosebumps reading it! > I always found a certain mystical side to Wire. This just further confirms it, along with the fact Colin spent some time in India, learning about Hinduism. There's a very interesting Hindu Temple here in Sacramento, where they have very elaborately made / decorated statues representing a small section of the Hindu Gods. They have a ceremony every morning and every evening to wake the Gods up, and to put them back to sleep. It's fascinating. 93, 93/93 Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:30:03 -0000 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock From: "giluz" >"Just read in Cale's autobiography about his dismay at the cult status of the > Velvet Underground. Apart from the fact that he didn't understand how such > an influential band could sell so little, he thought that rock music wasn't > about influences but about the current moment. This is basically a Punk > attitude, and it kinda seemed weird to me that not one of the old punksters > in this list came on with this line of argument. > > "Can punk really be understood as an evolutionary step? Did punk bands really > listen to all those pre-punk artists before starting making music?" Perhaps I'm not really an old punkster, but I did say this about 1976/77 amongst my other ramblings. Musical influences stopped being an issue. Everyone was too busy taking their own thing forward to check out the back catalogue. If people did have influences they were usually too technically incompetent to have them show through. Where cover versions were played, they were usually just the songs with the easiest chords for working out. And being anti-American was as much part of it as being anti-Pink Floyd. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:06:48 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] End of text quiz- > . I > > wish more bands had books like that; ie written by > > people that care about them! > > > > Not just that, but more books that are culled primarily from intensive, > probing interviews. It was really Wire in their own words. I love the book as well, but I think there's something lacking in hearing only the band's viewpoint, and this also from interviews conducted in the time it was written. I always wanted to know, for example, what Wire thought of themselves in the late 70's; Or things like the sleeve notes of Behind the Curtain, that represent three completely different viewpoints of fans/friends of the band. Still, I wouldn't expect that to be on this particular book, it's just a pity that it's the only Wire book around (or is it?). > > -Malka and Colin are married, and not just in the same > > band. > > > > And doesn't it mention they have a child? I wonder if the child is so > musically inclined (or how could their child not be, with both parents > musicians?) Ben Newman has an excellent track on the Swim Team CD under the name of Bumpy (made when he was only 10 years old). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:28:36 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] Wireviews To anyone who hasn't yet been to the Wireviews site (http://welcome.to/wireviews), Craig wrote the following in the News section: "Although I cannot reveal what's going to happen with Wire in the future, I can at least mention for now that some potentially very exciting announcements are just over the horizon." Sounds promising... giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 06:21:40 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock > Just read in Cale's autobiography about his dismay > at the cult status of the > Velvet Underground. Apart from the fact that he > didn't understand how such > an influential band could sell so little, he thought > that rock music wasn't > about influences but about the current moment. This > is basically a Punk > attitude, and it kinda seemed weird to me that not > one of the old punksters > in this list came on with this line of argument. I think that this is what we were saying? Confused of Leicester __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:27:42 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Band On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, giluz wrote: > I think the fact that we don't need another Abbey Rd. on our hands shows > Lynne's the best man for us: This band is The Worst Band, i.e. it should not > only be composed from the most awful and redundant players, but it should > also make the most awful and redundant music. However, I'm perfectly willing > to consider somone else for the role of producer. An engineer is needed as > well (the 2nd worst engineer can be the tape operator). Any suggestions? Alan Parsons? Surely he's not busy doing anything else... - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::As long as I don't sleep, he decided, I won't shave. ::That must mean...as soon as I fall asleep, I'll start shaving! __Thomas Pynchon, VINELAND__ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 10:28:36 -0500 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock Yes, Johnny Rotton wore his homemade "I Hate Pink Floyd" tee shirt, and yes, esp. in UK punk rock was very anti ELP, Yes, Genesis, Zeppelin styled big industry, arena rock etc bands, that had lost touch w/ "kids in the street", but also those kids were listening to bands. The UK scene easily follows out of TRex and Gary Glitter and Spiders from Mars style crunch and those bands - popular in the 45 vein also had an intense TV presense and sense of economy that all the big hairy bands lacked. In the US - well in NYC I know that if you didn't do covers, you couldn't get a gig, so the CB's scene was an outlet for artists that didn't want to wank off to Friday night partiers who wanted to hear the same old thing - Zepplin, Tull, Doors songs. Maybe the stylistic reaction here in the US was more vs. the West Coast mellow mafia of Fleetwood Mac, Jackson Browne, and Eagles more than being anti-industry per se, because everyone believed that if only they could get a label to sign them, then they'd be world famous. Check out Danny Fields' reminense in the current Mojo for a NYC scenster's state of mind at the time, along with the great article on Television. It recalls in part their last ever concert (first time around) which I attended, and believe me, it was all that and more. - Steve. G _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:41:24 +0100 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock > -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: stephen graziano [mailto:sjgraziano@hotmail.com] > Gesendet: Montag, 5. Februar 2001 16:29 > An: giluz@nettalk.com; idealcopy@smoe.org > Betreff: Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock > > Check out > Danny Fields' > reminense in the current Mojo for a NYC scenster's state of > mind at the > time, along with the great article on Television. If available online, can I have an URL, please ...??? Frank from Bavaria ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:44:47 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Band > Alan Parsons? Surely he's not busy doing anything else... As far as I hate the music associated with AP, I wouldn't call him a bad engineer. However, I'd be very happy to have him as a tape operator, make him stay long hours while doing nothing at all except for making coffee, cleaning up, and callibrating the console at the end of the session. However, this is personal - it's not a professional decision. Any other candidates? giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:02:12 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Producer/Engineer Jeff Lynne, Alan Parsons, IMO have each produced works that are good enough to take them out of the 'worst' Producer or Engineer category. I think that if you assembled the truly worst band in history, their egos would be so big, that they would produce it themselves, only further multiplying the inherent awfulness of said 'worst' production. Just think, if the resultant recording is bad enough it could be valuable for thousands of uses. On the low end, you could use it to remove the paint from the walls of rooms you're redecorating. In medium sized doses, it could be used to drive third world dictators out of hiding. At the extreme high end it could be classified a weapon of mass destruction, much like the (in)famous British Killer Joke of World War II. Amnesty International would proclaim its use the equivalent of a war crime. If princess Di were still alive, this may well have been the subject of her next world-wide crusade. Think of the countless applications for good and evil... the mind boggles! Cheers, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:30:25 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Producer/Engineer > be used to drive third world dictators out of hiding. At the extreme high > end it could be classified a weapon of mass destruction, much like the > (in)famous British Killer Joke of World War II. > > Amnesty International would proclaim its use the equivalent of a > war crime. That's exactly what I'm trying to do here, Ray. I was just hoping that we'd be quick enough so I'd be able to use it on our Election Day tomorrow, but I guess it's too late now (and it's not really necessary - we're doing a very good job without anyone's intervention). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:19:00 -0500 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: [idealcopy] Downriver/ King Mob It's a very exciting listen. I have the impression from my search that Sinclair is considered an important author but I hadn't heard of him before. I will have to pick up a book. After looking in local US bookstores I wised up and went to Amazon.com and--hey--there it was! Here's the information I got off the KING MOB web site (there was mention in a WMO newsletter): KMOB 01 IAIN SINCLAIR DOWNRIVER 64mins LONDON PREMIER WRITER READS HIS CLASSIC NOVEL WITH SHORT SOUND ATMOSPHERES BY BRUCE GILBERT (EX WIRE) KMOB 02 CHARLES BUKOWSKI AT TERROR STREET & AGONY WAY 67 & 63 mins DOUBLE CD RECORDED AT BUKOWSKI"S HOME IN 1969. 40 POEMS READ BY THE AUTHOR OVER AN EVENING OF DRINKING - JUST LIKE HAVING HIM THE CORNER OF YOUR ROOM! KMOB 03 THE MERRY PRANKSTERS (KEN KESEY & KEN BABBS) ACID TESTS VOL1 74mins VIETNAM DAY 1966 - THE PRANSKSTERS MEET THE ANGELS SOUND CITY (RECORDING STUDIO) ACID TEST 1965 FIRST OFFICIAL RELEASE FROM THE PRANKSTER ARCHIVES. KMOB 04 STEWART HOME PURE MANIA 60mins HIGH OCTANE READING OF HIS FIRST NOVEL. KMOB 05 THE BLACK PANTHERS UP AGAINST THE WALL 57mins A ROUSING ORATARY BY BOBBY SEALE (CHAIRMAN OF THE PANTHERS) IN NYC 1968 AT A RALLY FOR RECENTLY ARRRESTED ELDRIDGE CLEAVER (MINISTER OF INFORMATION). KING MOB MAIL ORDER UNIT 49, BBH 71, HENRIQUES STREET LONDON E1 1LZ ALL CD ARE #9 (UK) EACH EXCEPT CHARLES BUKOWSKI #14.99 FREE P&P IN UK EUROPE #2 PER CD USA #3 PER CD BUKOWSKI DBL COUNTS AS A SINGLE CD FOR P&P PURPOSES. ALL CHEQUES TO "KING MOB" ALL FUNDS MUST BE PRE-CONVERTED INTO UK #'S. > ---------- > From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2001 2:39 PM > To: Robert.Cambra@harpercollins.com; idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] O'Shea/Downriver > > In a message dated 03/02/01 01:44:49 GMT Standard Time, > Robert.Cambra@HARPERCOLLINS.com writes: > > I finally found a copy of Iain Sinclair's DOWNRIVER cd with > incidental music > by Bruce Gilbert a few months ago. Has anyone else? The author reads > his own > work here. I don't know yet quite what to make of the story by this > modern > novelist but I'm intrigued and will keep going back to it. The music > is some > of my favorite by Gilbert and is a great compliment to the story and > > reading--so it seems. > > ///////// never heard of this. can you give some label info and tell us > where > you got it? thanks,p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:34:38 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Punk and Influence >Just read in Cale's autobiography about his dismay at the cult status of the >Velvet Underground. Apart from the fact that he didn't understand how such >an influential band could sell so little, As Eno said, everyone who bought the first Velvet's album started a band. Influence can never be determined by sales. he thought that rock music wasn't >about influences but about the current moment. This is basically a Punk >attitude, and it kinda seemed weird to me that not one of the old punksters >in this list came on with this line of argument. In 1977 I would have agreed w/ this; now I think it's nonsense. Nothing is completely new. To move on from something is to be influenced by it (and far more important than copying it). All artists have influences, and indeed most have to work under an anxiety of that influence (eg Harold Bloom's "The Anxiety of Influence"). To react against something could also be seen as a negative influence (Lydon's "I hate Pink Floyd" t-shirt). >Can punk really be understood as an evolutionary step? Did punk bands really >listen to all those pre-punk artists before starting making music? Which >were more influential - the Velvets or the Stooges (hey - I didn't forget >Iggy this time),as idols, or the Pink Floyd and ELP as an example of what >you should not do with music? > >giluz Punk is an evolutionary step, or maybe de-evolutionary, but no, it cannot be understood in those terms. Whatever was taken from The Stooges had to be added to for anything to happen. The Sex Pistols (Johnny, anyway) were influenced by The Stooges (side note: Lydon considers Alice Cooper to be his main influence--something most punk rockers would rather not know); but you would never mistake one band for the other, nor does this influence "explain" The Sex Pistols, nor, to bring things back on topic, does Pere Ubu explain Wire (refering to Colin's comment that P. U. started punk). Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:42:45 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock In a message dated 05/02/01 15:40:24 GMT Standard Time, sjgraziano@hotmail.com writes: > . The UK scene easily follows > out of TRex and Gary Glitter and Spiders from Mars style crunch and those > bands - popular in the 45 vein also had an intense TV presense and sense of > economy that all the big hairy bands lacked. /////// i don't think you'd have ever got many of the 76 punks to admit to being gary glitter fans! i always think of the pistols sound as about a 3-way split of the stooges , ny dolls and the small faces. i think the britishness lydon/strummer drew on was a 60's small faces/who/yardbirds thing which they blended with the various american punky elements we've been discussing. but the british bit gave it the populism necessary for it to work. agreed that mojo piece was pretty good ; only about the second time i 've ever bought it.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 14:50:08 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: OT Re: sxxv: was [idealcopy] OT: Hook(ed) Paul, >>the first lp, always now, was produced by martin hannett, and for simplicity's sake, has a similar feel to joy division (dark), pil (sparse and bass heavy), and early acr/cabaret voltaire (minimalistic with feedbacky guitar). the second album, key of dreams, is largely made up of very psychedelic jammy kinda stuff, retaining a lot of the sound from always now. some of the material came from long jam sessions that were edited down.<< The two albums were recorded almost concurrently. Always Now was done in a "proper" studio (Britannia Row, with Hannett), while Key of Dreams was done at SXXV's own rehearsal room/studio. Key of Dreams is the best representation of the real SXXV sound. It was much more spacey than Hannett made it. Live stuff from 1980 is awesome. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:52:10 -0000 From: "scott kellock" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re-Napster - ----- Original Message ----- From: "giluz" To: "IdealCopy" ; "scott kellock" Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 9:05 AM Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re-Napster > If anyone can put them up somewhere on the web I'd be really happy. Couldn't > find them in Napster now. You could also give us the Napster user's name you > downloaded it from (and/or yours as well, since you have them now) and we > can look for them that way. > > giluz > > > > > > > > Go to Napster to Download > > > > Wire - Sixth ( 8.09 ) > > > > Wire - What ( 6.24 ) > > > > Wire - 12 Drill U ( 4.49 ) > > > > Wire - Underwater ( 4.11 ) > > > > > > > > All Tracks recorded May 1990 > > > > > > Well after trying for about 5 hours they are finally on now.I > > dont know much > > about the network etc . What do you mean and I'll find out. > > Well if you want to hear some rare footage you might be lucky. > > Let me know if anybody gets it > > Cheers Scott > Gils, You dont have to worry,. Your personnel copy is flying out to you? Picture Cover and middle !! Not many fans have these tracks, the "12 Drill U" reminds of Edinburgh 1990, Unfortunately my car was stolen and I could not make the last concert in Scotland. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:45:00 -0000 From: "scott kellock" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock - ----- Original Message ----- From: "stephen graziano" To: ; Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OffTopic: Runk Pock > Yes, Johnny Rotton wore his homemade "I Hate Pink Floyd" tee shirt, and yes, > esp. in UK punk rock was very anti ELP, Yes, Genesis, Zeppelin styled big > industry, arena rock etc bands, that had lost touch w/ "kids in the street", > but also those kids were listening to bands. The UK scene easily follows > out of TRex and Gary Glitter and Spiders from Mars style crunch and those > bands - popular in the 45 vein also had an intense TV presense and sense of > economy that all the big hairy bands lacked. In the US - well in NYC I know > that if you didn't do covers, you couldn't get a gig, so the CB's scene was > an outlet for artists that didn't want to wank off to Friday night partiers > who wanted to hear the same old thing - Zepplin, Tull, Doors songs. Maybe > the stylistic reaction here in the US was more vs. the West Coast mellow > mafia of Fleetwood Mac, Jackson Browne, and Eagles more than being > anti-industry per se, because everyone believed that if only they could get > a label to sign them, then they'd be world famous. Check out Danny Fields' > reminense in the current Mojo for a NYC scenster's state of mind at the > time, along with the great article on Television. It recalls in part their > last ever concert (first time around) which I attended, and believe me, it > was all that and more. - Steve. G Steve Get Real , as I said a few days ago ,"Punk" was a movement not all about music? You lot don't seem to get it ! Wire was not some "wierd" band for students, art school types but a band who grew up through punk, and if it wasn't for punk wouldn't be as popular as they are today. Today I was at a funeral, my friends mothers After the service we all ended back at a local pub! All my friends Yeah we loved bands like The Clash/ Buzzcocks/ Pistols / UK Subs / Banshees/TV Smith etc, Yeah you guessed it we're all still f**king skint! Thatchers Gov. made sure of that Cheers Scott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:51:31 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] bookworm funnily enough i re-read most of kevin's book over the weekend too. even better than i remembered , answered a load of questions i'd asked on here. whoever asked , there is another wire book called "exploded views". its pretty thrown together but you get an excellent 4-track cd (the ones somebody here was trying to put on napster). and , with true synchronicity , a copy has just gone up on ebay for $4.99. it's well worth a lot more than that.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:55:53 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] worlds worst drummer........ and singer the drummer in this band is phil collins. ah , but the singer. much more difficult. 3 candidates spring to mind. now the easy choice is the king of shite himself , cliff. others have been undoubtedly worse but for pure staying power he has no equal. shit in 6 decades with never even a glimmer of a worthwhile recording. and yet managing to avoid any trace of kitsch or "so bad he's good". genius in a way , but too much of an easy choice (soft option?!?) methinks. now most crap acts i can let wash over me , very few have the effect that i need to instantly run over to the tv/radio and hit the off button. over the last 15 years the singer who brings out an irrational hatred in me is george michael. he manages to effortlessly straddle "shite" and "pretentious" in a way few can compare. that sony case almost finished me off , the poor boy thinks he is an artistic genius rather than realising maybe he's cleaned up on vacuous motown pastiche without an original thought to his name. don't start me off. but maybe my first choice is a guy who did some ok stuff but seems to have just possibly lost the plot a little. yep , kevin rowland in his full blown dress-and-suspenders outfit. i can just see him fronting this band to perfection , i shall give him a call. following the sales of his last album (500 i think) he should be affordable too. the idea of alan parsons as engineer i like. but we've gotta make sure we work this band in the studio 24 hours a day or you can just see ol' al using the "downtime" to sneak a few of his muso mates in thru the back door and getting his so-called "project" going again. and we don't need the competition.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:00:46 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT Pink Floyd/Sex Pistols > > Yes, Johnny Rotton wore his homemade "I Hate Pink > Floyd" tee shirt That reminds me of a quote from a Pink Floyd biography I read a while ago. An interviewer mentioned the Johnny Rotten t-shirt story to David Gilmour and his response was: " At least he attacked someone with substance, he would have never got the job with an "I Hate Yes" shirt!" That just cracked me up!!! __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:06:42 -0600 From: "Alyce Ornella" Subject: [idealcopy] college radio on the internet hey guys, My radio show will finally be up and running on my school's website (school of the art institute of chicago artic.edu) Wensday nights 10pm-12am EST (thats 9-11 central time, 8-10 on the west coast, internationally, i don't know...) I'll be playing a variety of stuff, but I definately promise lots of Wire and assorted top notch post punk (the majority of the show) the direct link to the station is http://www.artic.edu/webspaces/freeradio/ see ya alyce _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 03:15:32 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] bookworm Paul, <> It's still available direct from the publishers in Italy for not a lot of money. I don't have the web site or emailaddress here but if you search for Wre Exploded Views on any search engine it should turn up. Mark ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #40 ******************************