From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #37 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, February 3 2001 Volume 04 : Number 037 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #36 [Anthony Clough ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass ["Jerry" ] Re: [idealcopy] worst bassist.........and singer [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Fwd: Re: AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hook(ed) [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] worst bassist.........and singer [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Fwd: Re: AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hook(ed) [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] pan sonic / gilbert peel session [kevin eden ] Re: [idealcopy] runk pock ["stephen graziano" ] Re: [idealcopy] runk pock ["stephen graziano" ] [idealcopy] vic / raincoats gig [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] vic IS there [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] OT: PIL [Michael Flaherty ] [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide on Ebay [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide on Ebay [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Cog Sinister [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] [idealcopy] OT: Worst Band ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] O'Shea/Downriver ["Cambra, Robert" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #36 I recall Lydon saying he'd told a journalist he'd love to work with Baker as a wind up. Baker read it and got in touch. Tony. > > Giluz, > > Absolutely. Lydon wanted someone who hit the drums VERY hard. there was > quite a lot of press at the time about it...the king of punk and the old > hippie etc. Last good PiL record too. > > Mark > > << > Ginger Baker is the drummer on that album! > . > Are you serious? I always thought it was someone trying to sound like him. >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:06:26 -0000 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] worst bassist.........and singer From: > look , mr stephen sheen , i am trying hard to compile this worlds worst band > and you make the ridiculous suggestion of woody ; as any fule kno he was the > rhythm guitarist of the rollers , the bassist was derek who was i think the > brother of the drummer alan (but we won't mention him.....). Hmmm. Admittedly it was a poor joke and an obscure one, but the nostalgia for 1977 put me up to it. The Worst - the greatest band never to make it out of Manchester. Received huge write-ups, along with the Fall, in 1977 as something special from the North about to make themselves known in spectacular fashion to the rest of the world. And then ... nothing. But a reputation as one of the legendary punk bands. Worst bass - Woody. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:20:01 -0000 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass Mark Nabbed ! I would claim after the fact that I should have written my last line as "I can't think of many punk groups that had as little influence over punk as Wire", more consistent with the thread and the rest of my comments. Since the Pistols were thrown into national prominence by the Bill Grundy interview in 1976, the pace of the musical revolution kicked into gear was rapid. For a group to have to wait two years to be influential on the Cure and Joy Division was an age. By 1979, even new wave was approaching burn out, the mod revival had happened and Two Tone was about to take over. So - Wire provided a valid escape route from punk, and any substantial influence was only picked up by post-punk groups on the basis of Wire's attributes that set them apart from the punk rock mainstream. Perhaps I am rambling too much from a subjective perspective. In 1977/78/79, Wire were the group that remained untainted by the attentions of the general public and didn't get caught in the rapid turnover of "Peel session and first single" excellent = favourite band ... "second single" minor chart hit = sell out and untouchable. Wire were unusual in being an acceptable cult right through until 1979. Bittersweet memories of relief at the news that "Outdoor Miner" had been thrown out of the charts. The main point - which makes my own statement about lack of influence look somewhat foolish - was to contrast what was happening on the American side of this list ... the attempt to build a chain of influence in punk rock. In Britain it is possible to form a musical chain that starts with the Sex Pistols, but it fairly soon leads to the murky waters of the Oi! phenomenon. The major impulse was to inspire people to do whatever they wanted to do, and quite precisely not to be held back by what everybody else was doing. So even if you can establish a direct link between PSG, the New York Dolls, the Stooges, etc, and the Pistols, it had no importance over here. The Pistols' influence was not musical but inspirational, and vastly inspirational in freeing up creative processes rather than straightjacketing them. Nobody needed to declare their influences, because the kudos was in being different. I would still argue that it is impossible to form a musical chain of bands that has Wire has its first link - but a significant number of bands who were encouraged to be different by Wire. yours chastened, Stephen I said ... << In contrast to the influence that they have in modern times, I can't think of many groups that had as little influence in their day as Wire. >> Mark said ... /////This is an incredible - and mind-blowingly wrong - comment! Notwithstanding the hordes of rubbish bands that used to cover the likes of Mannequin, Wire in 78-79 forced a whole heap of bands to make wholesale changes to their sound. In particular Joy Division and The Cure both owed an immense debt to Wire in that they slowed down, and made their sound denser and darker///// ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:01:18 -0000 From: "Jerry" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass > So even if you can establish a direct link between ...the New York Dolls... and the Pistols, Like MacLaren managing the NYDs for a short time, then coming straight back and 'directing' the Pistols? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 06:47:55 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] worst bassist.........and singer ah , you lost me completely. i thought you were proposing woody of the rollers ; probably the least glamorous boy band member of all time. and not exactly the best musician either. could be a candidate..... i think the only claim to fame of the worst was that one of them did the band portraits on "Love bites". i never heard any of the records. p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 06:56:37 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Re: AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hook(ed) Return-Path: Received: from web48.aolmail.aol.com (web48.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.161.9]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (v77.35) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Feb 2001 06:54:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 06:54:15 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: <26.10b77504.27abf9e8@aol.com> I > thought that the first Monaco album was, in places, pretty > darn good (don't > know about the latest. Anyone?). It is very weak and boring ... I brought it back to the shop. Of all the NO spin-offs I prefer Electronic. Their first album was brilliant, the second and third one are at least very good ( but do have some "not so good" tracks on it). ///// i thought the first electronic album was very good and very under-rated. their other 2 have created little interest , the stuff i heard sounded like bland sub-new order. as did monaco. new NO album is allegedly being recorded now , a collaboration with the chemical bros. could be good?p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 07:03:05 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] worst bassist.........and singer The woman from the Cranberries. "wit' dere tonks an' dere goons an' dere bambs an' dere goons" etc. Irritating warble, comedy accent, and some of the worst lyrics ever written. Mark >>as with sinead , the more time they spend in the USA the stronger the irish accent seems strangely to get. the 3rd cranberries album is an all-time stinker , some of the worst lyrics you'll ever hear.p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:57:50 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hook(ed) > I thought that the first Monaco album was, in places, pretty > darn good (don't > know about the latest. Anyone?). It is very weak and boring ... I brought it back to the shop. Of all the NO spin-offs I prefer Electronic. Their first album was brilliant, the second and third one are at least very good ( but do have some "not so good" tracks on it). ///// i thought the first electronic album was very good and very under-rated. their other 2 have created little interest , the stuff i heard sounded like bland sub-new order. as did monaco. new NO album is allegedly being recorded now , a collaboration with the chemical bros. could be good?p The new NO album is mainly guitar. Obviously, the Chemical Bros track isn't. Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 07:06:02 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass << Paul, << ///// changing the subject , on TOTP2 last night was PIL doing "rise" with what appeared to be hugo burnham on drums. didn't realise he'd ever been in pil. does he play on the records? p >> Ginger Baker is the drummer on that album! Mark >> did hugo b ever gig with PIL then? p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:31:49 -0800 (PST) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] pan sonic / gilbert peel session This John Peel session from 1995 is now online at: http://www.tonesanddrones.com/ Click on Pan Sonic at the start. ===== kevin eden wmo, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk wmouk@yahoo.com http://wiremailorder.com/ "dreams that money can buy" __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:17:23 -0500 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT : PSG??? Class, ... Class !!!! Now pay attention and look at the blackboard PSG = Patti Smith Group Thank you for your time. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:54:26 -0500 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] runk pock >From: "scott kellock" >Steve >Whats this a lesson on American punk ? You forgot the DeadBoys with >the late "Stiv Bator" who went on to form "Lords of The New Church". >checkout >their albums. OK, you can add the Dead Boys with the first wave of "outoftown" bands to play at CBGB since they actually traveled in before Pere Ubu, though they were definatly working in a postRamones mode and Stiv (the complete and utter idiot that he was) was involved in that preUbu post Velvets Rocket From the Tombs scene in Cleveland. The Lords of the New Church sucked. I must say I liked alot of the Amercan Bands especially >Television, >Heartbreakers,PSG,Ramones,The Tubes (remember them) the Tubes have(had) NOTHING to to with American punk or the CBGB scene - they were much more like a Zappaesque highschool parody review and wound up donating a player to the freakin Grateful Dead for gods' sake and Devo were just >superb. Devo were interesting (and good) for the first one and a half albums until they decided to full bore market their schtick. A prime example of what happens to rock music when you cut it's balls off and try to make a go of it w/ a intellectual/media savy hype. I for one quickly lost interest in their twitchy larvae spuddness. - Steve. G >Cheers >Scott _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:59:41 -0500 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] runk pock >From: "dan bailey" Blank Generation came out no later than 77 on Sire (along w/ Talking Heads 77 and maybe just after first Ramones album, but before Marquee Moon. Voidoids did release 45s on Ork (along with Television) before lp release. > >Without digging out any reference works, I've gotta say they couldn't have >been *too* much later, because their Blank Generation LP marked my into to >punk, back in 3/78, & I don't believe it was brand-new at the time,& the >Blank Generation (I think ... or was it Love Comes In Spurts ... maybe >both) >single would've come out on (I believe) Ork sometime before that. If memory >serves (& it could certainly be clouded by age & fatigue) Hell formed them >right after exiting the Heartbreakers, who in turned he'd joined right >after >exiting Television. Could easily have at least one of those supposed facts >wrong, though. > >Dan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:32:17 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] vic / raincoats gig ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:33:46 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] vic IS there tickets now available for vic godard/raincoats gig on 3rd march from box office 020 7287 0932. well i got mine. who else is going? p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:49:10 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] OT: PIL >> "rise" with what appeared to be hugo burnham on drums. didn't realise >> he'd ever been in pil. does he play on the records? p >> >> >> Ginger Baker is the drummer on that album! > >And Steve Vai was the guitarist! I must be the only person on this list >who likes Vai. I'm not sure that anyone post-wobble-leviene has really been "in" PIL. I'm glad that Lydon has dropped the name ... coincidentally or not, Psycho Path is may fav. Lydon since Commercial Zone. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 09:59:25 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide on Ebay Umm ... if anyone is looking for the above item it's on ebay right now ... bids have passed $40. Wow. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:59:55 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists Me too. Mind you, the drums, vocals and guitar aren't bad either. My favourite PiL song. John - --- Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, giluz wrote: > > > As for Wobble, this is exactly the sort of thing > that makes him a great bass > > player: Even when he could hardly play > technically, he had massive sound and > > great bass riffs. I think those should be the > criterions for being a good > > bass player: sound/presence and the bass lines > themselves. > > Let me just jump in here to state that the bass part > from "Pop Tones" is > probably one of my all-time favorites. > > --Jeff > > J e f f r e y N o r m a n > The Architectural Dance Society > www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html > ::Watson! Something's afoot...and it's on the end of > my leg:: > __Hemlock Stones__ __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:41:14 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] runk pock - --- > > OK, you can add the Dead Boys with the first wave of > "outoftown" bands to > play at CBGB since they actually traveled in before > Pere Ubu, though they > were definatly working in a postRamones mode and > Stiv (the complete and > utter idiot that he was) was involved in that preUbu > post Velvets Rocket > From the Tombs scene in Cleveland. The Lords of the > New Church sucked. I used to like the first album a lot when it came out. But its mainly covers of 60s garage stuff. > the Tubes have(had) NOTHING to to with American punk > or the CBGB scene - > they were much more like a Zappaesque highschool > parody review and wound up > donating a player to the freakin Grateful Dead for > gods' sake Tubes sucked. Apart from White Punks on Dope. JOhn __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:59:10 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide on Ebay ///// i had a nibble at this but i think it's gone too high. can't be worth that can it? hopefully it flushes a few more out , had that effect when that devoto solo cd went for a stupid price..... p << Umm ... if anyone is looking for the above item it's on ebay right now ... bids have passed $40. Wow. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:32:18 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Cog Sinister On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk wrote: > My email screwed up there. It should have been Phil Shvenfelt. I'd just assumed it was short for "Phil Shit." Which I think I'll use as a band name, if ever I have a band. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::American people like their politics like Pez - small, sweet, and ::coming out of a funny plastic head. __Dennis Miller__ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 21:17:21 +0000 From: Nik Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass In message <14.f27e941.27ab4700@aol.com>, MarkBursa@aol.com writes >Dave Allen is great in Go4... Well spoken! Come to think of it - another former GoFer, Gail Ann Dorsey, is very good, too. Although signing up with Bowie is rather unforgivable. Not enough to put her in the 'worst' category, though. However, I'm all in favour of nominating Pino Palladino for Paul's infamous combo: he might have played with Ryuichi Sakamoto once, but that doesn't make his collaborations with Messrs John (as in Elton), Collins, Henley, Clapton, Gilmour and Young any less despicable. Quite the rent-a-merc. >but can't say I ever really liked Shriekback. I used to love them. Currently no time for lengthy elaboration, un(?)fortunately ;-) > >Bit too much of the white boy funk. What about Bootsy Collins then? I think Mr. Space Bass is a worthy candidate for the 'best' spot. And not just because he and his band once saved the Godfather's behind...Good story, though. Nik ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:54:14 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Band Can this band be produced by Jeff Lynne, maybe? giluz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:36:44 -0500 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: [idealcopy] O'Shea/Downriver It's been good to see that WMO is going to put out the O'Shea album after all. Last year a list member kindly made me a tape of the album. I didn't really know what to expect and I got a real jolt from the very first note--amazingly strong stuff from a hammer dulcimer player. I finally found a copy of Iain Sinclair's DOWNRIVER cd with incidental music by Bruce Gilbert a few months ago. Has anyone else? The author reads his own work here. I don't know yet quite what to make of the story by this modern novelist but I'm intrigued and will keep going back to it. The music is some of my favorite by Gilbert and is a great compliment to the story and reading--so it seems. Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 21:15:36 -0800 From: jasonmb@calweb.com Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hook(ed) >And much better than Monaco/Revenge was the album of The Other Two. >I bought this album when it was released and additionally downloaded >some mixes from Napster recently. Their second album, Superhighways, is also pretty good. Let's hope the new New Order album (if they ever manage to actually finish it) is worth the wait. - -- Jason Borchers jasonmb@calweb.com ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #37 ******************************