From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #36 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, February 2 2001 Volume 04 : Number 036 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] runk pock [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Velvet Linda's Sausage Underground [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [Jonathan Land ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] CN's 'A-Z' ["ian barrett" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass [Rick Hindman ] [idealcopy] worst bassist.........and singer [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] [idealcopy] wire photos [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] Re: A-Z vs Not To/Singing fish [Howard Spencer ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass [MarkBursa@aol.com] [OT] How do you sleep? (was Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #32) [Paul Pietromonaco ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:12:46 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] runk pock The American scene was absent the overt class consiousness, social fabric commentary that a lot of the UK bands wove into the music, but musically I think a strong case could be made that it was the Americans (esp Heartbreakers, Voidoids, and Ramones) visiting that helped mutate the pubbish rock sound into the classic speed-n-razorwire sound that became London '77. ////// the ramones were certainly a huge inspiration (eg on mark perry and sniffin glue) , as was johnny thunders. not so sure about the voidoids though , i thought they were quite a bit later (and i must say i have heard very little by them).p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:19:26 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player I remeber enjoying seeing Looking after number one on a '77 evening pop show (may have been Marc, more likely Lift Off with Ayshea!!) but subsequent records were increasingly dire. Rat Trap as number 1..........I remember thinking, of all the punk records, why did this have to be the one to get to number 1? Not a fan either... ////// the story goes that john mckay of the banshees felt much the same about "rat trap" and "hong kong garden" was his attempt to get something a bit punkier to number 1. almost worked.p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:19:21 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Velvet Linda's Sausage Underground Graeme, << New order 'Movement' where oldies are concerned - how could the production of their best song 'Dreams Never End' be improved? << By substituting the Movement version with the one from the Peel Session. >>Which is the best Section 25? (I've heard and liked at least a couple of early tracks which sounded v. Joy Division influenced) >> The first two (Always Now and Key of Dreams) are the best ones (recorded with the original line-up). Get the LTM reissues with added singles/outtakes from the same period. Also check out the new free MP3 stuff on section25.com Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:20:14 -0500 From: Jonathan Land Subject: Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player >Paul, > >I remeber enjoying seeing Looking after number one on a '77 evening pop show >(may have been Marc, more likely Lift Off with Ayshea!!) but subsequent >records were increasingly dire. Rat Trap as number 1..........I remember >thinking, of all the punk records, why did this have to be the one to get to >number 1? > >Not a fan either... > >Mark > ><< Hello? A Tonic for the Troops is an excellent album. The > Rats were generally good. The steaming pile of shite still applies to > his solo career however. > > ////// sorry to diagree but IMO they were > a dire pub rock act with no redeeming features. geldof was a piss-poor >jagger > impersonator. together with toyah and hazel o'connor he made a holy trinity > of duff power pop rubbish. compared to what else was going on at the time > they were atrocious. > > you could say i wasn't a fan :-) p -- >> Okay, okay I give up. I'm the only one here who likes the Boomtown Rats, I've got my dunce cap out, and I'm facing the corner. Jon - -- http://incomplete.net - "If it's not here, it's incomplete!" This is Klahn's bodyguard - he is tough and ruthless. This is Klahn's chauffeur - he is rough and toothless. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:20:12 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] runk pock > The American scene was absent the overt class consiousness, social fabric > commentary that a lot of the UK bands wove into the music, but musically I > think a strong case could be made that it was the Americans (esp > Heartbreakers, Voidoids, and Ramones) visiting that helped mutate the > pubbish rock sound into the classic speed-n-razorwire sound that became > London '77. > >////// the ramones were certainly a huge inspiration (eg on mark perry and >sniffin glue) , as was johnny thunders. not so sure about the voidoids though >, i thought they were quite a bit later (and i must say i have heard very >little by them).p Without digging out any reference works, I've gotta say they couldn't have been *too* much later, because their Blank Generation LP marked my into to punk, back in 3/78, & I don't believe it was brand-new at the time,& the Blank Generation (I think ... or was it Love Comes In Spurts ... maybe both) single would've come out on (I believe) Ork sometime before that. If memory serves (& it could certainly be clouded by age & fatigue) Hell formed them right after exiting the Heartbreakers, who in turned he'd joined right after exiting Television. Could easily have at least one of those supposed facts wrong, though. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:26:04 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass Fernando, << I go with Mark, that technical prowess is not all that matters in a bassist... in that camp you have Sid and Peter, << Whell, here's a big difference between not being "technical" - like Hooky or Steve Hanley - and not being able to play at all, like Sid. >>but Peter did something very meaningful.... even when ripping-off others for a bit of baseline on a song (e.g., from the Phil Spector produced "Then He Kissed Me" on Love Will Tear Us Apart)... visceral playing has some good going for it! >> Hooky probably ripped off fewer bass lines than any musician alive, as there was simply nothing like him. JJ Burnel is the only real reference point. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:30:03 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player I must admit I like the first album just fine (not that I've listened to it in eons), esp. Looking Out for No. 1 & ... hmmm, quite a bit of at least one of the 2 sides, though at the moment my copy doesn't appear to be where it should be on my shelves. Do remember liking (titles approximate) Mary of the Fourth Form, Neon Heart & Never Bite the Hand That Feeds. Can't say Tonic for the Troops did much for me ... too many Springsteenisms (& I daresay I like that guy considerably more than virtually anyone else here, though not really till his '80s stuff), if I'm remembering Rat Trap correctly in particular. Never bought anything of theirs after that. Wound up trading in my copy within a couple of years, though I replaced it on the cheap in the late '90s. Dan >>Paul, >> >>I remeber enjoying seeing Looking after number one on a '77 evening pop show >>(may have been Marc, more likely Lift Off with Ayshea!!) but subsequent >>records were increasingly dire. Rat Trap as number 1..........I remember >>thinking, of all the punk records, why did this have to be the one to get to >>number 1? >> >>Not a fan either... >> >>Mark >> >><< Hello? A Tonic for the Troops is an excellent album. The >> Rats were generally good. The steaming pile of shite still applies to >> his solo career however. >> >> ////// sorry to diagree but IMO they were >> a dire pub rock act with no redeeming features. geldof was a piss-poor >>jagger >> impersonator. together with toyah and hazel o'connor he made a holy trinity >> of duff power pop rubbish. compared to what else was going on at the time >> they were atrocious. >> >> you could say i wasn't a fan :-) p -- >> > > Okay, okay I give up. I'm the only one here who likes the >Boomtown Rats, I've got my dunce cap out, and I'm facing the corner. > > Jon > >-- >http://incomplete.net - "If it's not here, it's incomplete!" > >This is Klahn's bodyguard - he is tough and ruthless. >This is Klahn's chauffeur - he is rough and toothless. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:33:51 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass Paul, << /// so what did you think of revenge mark? p >> Eeewww... too many drugs, I think. Hooky is almost invisible on the last NO album too. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:51:26 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #35 > //// so what did you think of revenge mark? p OOFF! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:59:15 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass Mark wrote: Chris, << Peter Hook in certain circles is regarded as very average. >> Which circles? The deaf? One of the most innovative bass players of all time, to a point of redefining the instrument's role within a group sound. And a fantastic sense of melody. Hooky would be battling with Steve Hanley for the bass spot in my all-time best group, not the all-time worst! ================== I agree that Hooky is a "good'un", but I'd have to add Dave Allen of Go4 and Shriekback. On the Shriekback albums that he appears on, his bass absolutely dominates, much like Hooky does with New Order. Cheers, Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:15:30 -0000 From: "ian barrett" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] CN's 'A-Z' My girlfriend (who must read my email) recently (less than a couple of weeks ago) bought me A-Z on CD from Amazon for about 4 quid. I've had it on vinyl for years but not been able to play it for several. I've also liked the album immensely but had forgotten how mad it was , how good it was and how much I've missed it. Also, heard some of the bonus tracks for the first time (Not Me, Don't Bring Reminders). As a demo recording for A-Z, Not Me sounds very much like an outtake from somewhere between Pink Flag and Chairs Missing. Reminded me of another of my (non Wire fan - not by a long stretch) brother's great misheard lyrics, from I've Waited Ages "I'm deliberately diverging..." he mocked thinking that Newman was singing "I'll deliberately die a virgin..." Brilliant album, though. These things are fluid for me, but like Dan, I'd place it up there with 154. Massive highlight this time around which was, wayback, just another one of the tracks, is Alone. Gut wrenching stuff. - ----- Original Message ----- From: dan bailey To: idealcopy Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' > >A-Z / Singing Fish / Not To are available on CD. It Seems & Commercial > >Suicide are not anymore (and are not due for rerelease either). I think > most > >listers would recommend A-Z as the best early CN album. > > IIIIIII certainly would ... ranks right behind the Holy Trinity (Pink Flag, > Chairs Missing & 154, of course) amongst my top, oh, 25 or so albums of all > time. > > Back to bed ... > > Dan > > > > >giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:28:51 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass I agree that Hooky is a "good'un", but I'd have to add Dave Allen of Go4 and Shriekback. On the Shriekback albums that he appears on, his bass absolutely dominates, much like Hooky does with New Order. ///// changing the subject , on TOTP2 last night was PIL doing "rise" with what appeared to be hugo burnham on drums. didn't realise he'd ever been in pil. does he play on the records? p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:33:04 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass > I agree that Hooky is a "good'un", but I'd have to > add Dave Allen of Go4 and > Shriekback. On the Shriekback albums that he appears > on, his bass absolutely > dominates, much like Hooky does with New Order. And as an avowed Crimson-ite, I would have to add Tony Levin to any 'best of' list. I just had a chance to see him and the California Guitar Trio Tuesday and he just gets better and better. He even sang on Elephant Talk! RJH __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:39:31 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] worst bassist.........and singer look , mr stephen sheen , i am trying hard to compile this worlds worst band and you make the ridiculous suggestion of woody ; as any fule kno he was the rhythm guitarist of the rollers , the bassist was derek who was i think the brother of the drummer alan (but we won't mention him.....) . it is this sort of lack of attention to detail that will sabotage this project , if you gave woody a bass he probably wouldn't be able to play it at all. well we seem to be down to a tough choice between sting and mark king. i will give it some thought. nominations coming in thick and fast for the highly coveted role of lead vocalist. i will revert in due course.....p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:03:04 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, giluz wrote: > As for Wobble, this is exactly the sort of thing that makes him a great bass > player: Even when he could hardly play technically, he had massive sound and > great bass riffs. I think those should be the criterions for being a good > bass player: sound/presence and the bass lines themselves. Let me just jump in here to state that the bass part from "Pop Tones" is probably one of my all-time favorites. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Watson! Something's afoot...and it's on the end of my leg:: __Hemlock Stones__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:06:54 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] runk pock On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, stephen graziano wrote: > The American scene was absent the overt class consiousness, social fabric > commentary that a lot of the UK bands wove into the music, but musically I Yep - but a political edge entered in shortly afterwards, in the hardcore scene (see Dead Kennedys), tending toward a more socially oriented anarchy (as opposed to overtly political). Add to Stephen's concise summary the importance of the Ohio bands: Ubu, Devo, Dead Boys...who were working independently of much of what he mentioned. Both Ubu and Devo, I think, began recording in 1974 or 1975. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::Sting, where is thy death?:: __Alan Gray_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:13:42 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] wire photos go check out www.rockphotos.i12.com. some guy is trying to sell a set of 5 wire photos from the electric ballroom1980 for #17.50. luckily for us he posts 4 of the 5 up on his website. 2 nice "atmospheric" ones of colin , one of c , b and r but best of all is a pic of graham screaming into the mike whilst bashing a piece of metal with a lumphammer (anyone here at the gig? what song was that on?) i printed them off and they look pretty good , make a nice cover for a bootleg cd :-) maybe we should club together , buy a set and run off copies. or is that naughty? p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:43:25 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: A-Z vs Not To/Singing fish A-Z wins by a country mile, I have to say it. A-Z is one of those ones that keeps on yielding more, as far as I am concerned. Like 154. All a matter of taste, just like bass players. Some of those nominated may be technically competent, but then so is Rick Wakeman. Good to be reminded of Revenge, Paul - god, that shows me up for how far blind loyalty can lead you - I have most of their releases and play them NEVER. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:44:03 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] worst bassist.........and singer On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > nominations coming in thick and fast for the highly coveted role of lead > vocalist. i will revert in due course.....p Many of us on this list of a Certain Age have the same skeletons in our closets: that of Ye Olde Dusty Prog-Rock LPs. So it is I am able to nominate, as worst vocalist ever, whoever the whiny idiot is who sang entirely through his nose on Rick Wakeman's _The Myths and Legends of King Arthur and the Knights of Round Table and Please Don't Spill Curry on My Silver Lame Wizard's Cape or I Shall Whip My Terribly Greasy Ass-Length Hair in Your Face_. That, or Mary Hopkin. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::pushing the pencil not the envelope:: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:10:56 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass Ray, Dave Allen is great in Go4...but can't say I ever really liked Shriekback. Bit too much of the white boy funk. Remember being unimpressed by them live though not to a point of dislike. Mark << I agree that Hooky is a "good'un", but I'd have to add Dave Allen of Go4 and Shriekback. On the Shriekback albums that he appears on, his bass absolutely dominates, much like Hooky does with New Order. >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:13:39 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass Paul, << /// what little of revenge i heard sounded very mediocre. great bassist , not my cup of tea as a singer at all.p >> Hook can sing - Dreams Never End, for example. But most of the time he grunts, as if his voice never fits the key of the songs.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:14:34 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass Paul, << ///// changing the subject , on TOTP2 last night was PIL doing "rise" with what appeared to be hugo burnham on drums. didn't realise he'd ever been in pil. does he play on the records? p >> Ginger Baker is the drummer on that album! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:22:27 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] worst bassist.........and singer Paul, << well we seem to be down to a tough choice between sting and mark king. i will give it some thought.<< Still think Adam Clayton is worse than either of those two. >>nominations coming in thick and fast for the highly coveted role of lead vocalist. i will revert in due course.....p >> The woman from the Cranberries. "wit' dere tonks an' dere goons an' dere bambs an' dere goons" etc. Irritating warble, comedy accent, and some of the worst lyrics ever written. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:34:45 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass Excerpts from mail: 1-Feb-101 Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass by MarkBursa@aol.com > << ///// changing the subject , on TOTP2 last night was PIL doing > "rise" with what appeared to be hugo burnham on drums. didn't realise > he'd ever been in pil. does he play on the records? p >> > > Ginger Baker is the drummer on that album! And Steve Vai was the guitarist! I must be the only person on this list who likes Vai. (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "Years of dealing with your kind has taught me patience." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 20:05:35 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Best Bass Giluz, Absolutely. Lydon wanted someone who hit the drums VERY hard. there was quite a lot of press at the time about it...the king of punk and the old hippie etc. Last good PiL record too. Mark << > Ginger Baker is the drummer on that album! . Are you serious? I always thought it was someone trying to sound like him. >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:26:58 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: [OT] How do you sleep? (was Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #32) >on 31/1/01 22:27, Michael Flaherty at mflaher3@triton.cc.il.us wrote: > >> George was (also?) on the Paul-bashing "How Do You Sleep?" > >And Ringo as well. > >giluz Sorry mate: 8.How Do You Sleep? {Lennon} (5:36) John Lennon: lead vocal, guitar George Harrison: slide guitar Klaus Voormann: bass Alan White: drums Nicky Hopkins: piano Ringo didn't appear on the Imagine album, actually. He was on Plastic Ono Band, though. Trainspottingly yours, Paul *********************************************************** Brain: "Pinky, Are You Pondering What I'm Pondering?" Pinky: "I think so Brain, but can the gummy worms really live in peace with the marshmallow chips?" Paul Pietromonaco Test Engineer - Reflection X WRQ, Inc. E-Mail: paulp@wrq.com *********************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:45:03 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Cog Sinister My email screwed up there. It should have been Phil Shvenfelt. Chris. PaulRabjohn@aol.com on 01/02/2001 19:09:30 To: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS, idealcopy@smoe.org cc: Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Cog Sinister I know this subject is dead but looking on allmusic.com just now the following artists are listed under the Cog Sinister name: The Fall Phil Sh venfelt Who is this Phil geezer? ////// dunno. but cog sinister did release some records by other acts ; i have an andrew berry single (pretty good) and there was an album (?) by john the postman. maybe phil sh and venfelt were other acts on their roster? p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 08:59:18 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Hook(ed) Don't get me wrong, I personally love the music Peter Hook produces. I thought that the first Monaco album was, in places, pretty darn good (don't know about the latest. Anyone?). Chris. The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:28:11 +0100 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hook(ed) > -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk [mailto:Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] > Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Februar 2001 09:59 > An: idealcopy@smoe.org > Betreff: [idealcopy] OT: Hook(ed) > > > Don't get me wrong, I personally love the music Peter Hook produces. I > thought that the first Monaco album was, in places, pretty > darn good (don't > know about the latest. Anyone?). It is very weak and boring ... I brought it back to the shop. Of all the NO spin-offs I prefer Electronic. Their first album was brilliant, the second and third one are at least very good ( but do have some "not so good" tracks on it). And much better than Monaco/Revenge was the album of The Other Two. I bought this album when it was released and additionally downloaded some mixes from Napster recently. Frank from Bavaria ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #36 ******************************