From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #35 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, February 1 2001 Volume 04 : Number 035 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] wire in the wire [Mark Short ] RE: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] OffTopic: music software question ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] AW: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists [Woerner Frank ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass ["Stephen JC Sheen" ] AW: [idealcopy] Adventurous Bands [Woerner Frank ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett/Magazine ["ian jackson" ] RE: [idealcopy] runk pock ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] runk pock [WAndyComer@aol.com] [idealcopy] OT : PSG??? ["ian jackson" ] [idealcopy] PSG?? [WAndyComer@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] PSG?? [John Roberts ] Re: [idealcopy] PSG?? ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] PSG?? ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] Re: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] Re: [idealcopy] PSG?? ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #32 [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] Velvet Linda's Sausage Underground [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20] Re: [idealcopy] runk pock ["scott kellock" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: AW: [idealcopy] Adventurous Bands [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] (off topic?)Punk [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Cog Sinister [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:34:22 +0000 From: Mark Short Subject: [idealcopy] wire in the wire This month's copy of the Wire carries a review (favourable) of the new Silo album. Also has a lengthy interview with Tortoise, in which they give maximum respect to Wire. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 01:36:39 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: RE: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' > I think most listers would recommend > A-Z as the best early CN album. I wouldn't!! I find A-Z a somewhat annoying listen (although there are some gems on there) -- Singing Fish/Not to is far better IMO, even if the production is a bit iffy. :) Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:01:14 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] OffTopic: music software question Is there any musician on the list that works on a Macintosh? I just got a (cracked) vesion of Peak 1.6, and am quite disapointed as to its capabilities, compared to PC's audio editors I'm more used to, such as Sound Forge or WaveLab. Does anyone know if the newer versions of Peak have more functions? (I'm referring to basic functions such as being able to select just the right or left track, moving selection to the left/right of itself) And does the registered version have all of the plug-ins on it? Is there a better editor for Mac (I heard there's an audio editor by DigiDesign, but I don't know what's it like)? cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 04:12:16 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (off topic?)Punk ////// you know to me punk is an attitude , a state > of mind , not a way of > playing the guitar. so i don't see limp bizkit/green > day/whoever as punk > bands at all. just boring old rock bands going thru > the motions. but then > maybe i'm an old fart :-) Couldn't agree with you more. John __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 04:14:48 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player - --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: ... a lot of less than complimentary things about Bob G and the Boomtown Rats. I loved em at the time for all the reasons you outline I think. I couldn't listen to em now tho I did enjoy seeing them on Marc doing Looking After No. 1. It reminded me that I once wore a pyjama jacket to a school disco a la Johnnie Fingers. (Now that's a crap punk name.) John __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 04:22:30 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass George What's wrong with calling Wobble 'amateurish'? I consider it a compliment. What am I meant to say? The Mark King-esque Jah Wobble? I haven't seen the footage you talk of but any early footage I've seen of PiL Wobble is playing sitting down cos according to legend he couldn't play a bass standing up. I don't whether this was true or not but when matched up with a close listen to Metal Box I'd say he's either genuinely not that technically accomplished or he's very good at appearing amateurish. I've only ever seen him live once and that was about six years ago. He didn't sound very amateurish that night I must admit. Whichever - emphatically *not* worst bass player. John - --- george.m.hook@accenture.com wrote: > > Wobble's amateurish bass playing? Someone remove me > from this list, > please! This is the man who appeared with Johnny > [Rotten] Lydon on > American Bandstand, and changed the course of the > music I love forever. > And today is Rotten's birthday, to boot. Jah Wobble > rocks: Listen to > "Invaders of the Heart." > > > > > This message is for the designated recipient only > and may contain > privileged or confidential information. If you have > received it in error, > please notify the sender immediately and delete the > original. Any other > use of the email by you is prohibited. > > __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:32:26 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass I was going to abstain from this thread but here we go. I've heard from many bass players that Mark King & Jah Wobble are pretty darn excellent bass players (even if you don't like their music). Peter Hook in certain circles is regarded as very average. I don't know. I like Joy Div and New Order and Revenge (ish) and Monaco so Hooky, to me, seems OK. Doug Wimbush is also an excellent bass player. So I didn't really further the "worst bass player" thread. Chris. John Roberts on 01/02/2001 12:22:30 To: george.m.hook@accenture.com cc: idealcopy@smoe.org (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass George What's wrong with calling Wobble 'amateurish'? I consider it a compliment. What am I meant to say? The Mark King-esque Jah Wobble? I haven't seen the footage you talk of but any early footage I've seen of PiL Wobble is playing sitting down cos according to legend he couldn't play a bass standing up. I don't whether this was true or not but when matched up with a close listen to Metal Box I'd say he's either genuinely not that technically accomplished or he's very good at appearing amateurish. I've only ever seen him live once and that was about six years ago. He didn't sound very amateurish that night I must admit. Whichever - emphatically *not* worst bass player. John - --- george.m.hook@accenture.com wrote: > > Wobble's amateurish bass playing? Someone remove me > from this list, > please! This is the man who appeared with Johnny > [Rotten] Lydon on > American Bandstand, and changed the course of the > music I love forever. > And today is Rotten's birthday, to boot. Jah Wobble > rocks: Listen to > "Invaders of the Heart." > > > > > This message is for the designated recipient only > and may contain > privileged or confidential information. If you have > received it in error, > please notify the sender immediately and delete the > original. Any other > use of the email by you is prohibited. > > __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:37:00 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Cog Sinister I know this subject is dead but looking on allmusic.com just now the following artists are listed under the Cog Sinister name: The Fall Phil Sh venfelt Who is this Phil geezer? Chris. The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:54:24 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists not a word yet for Pino Palladino or Mick Karn or the round headed bloke from Level 42?? Fretless slap - all very unpleasant. Thanks to Andrew W. for sorting out the Hornsey Transfer mystery. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:57:05 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists The slap-head from Level 42 is Mark King. Like I said, I can't stand the music but he is regarded as a very godd (technically) bass player. That's why it's hard to decide who is good or bad. Chris. Howard Spencer on 01/02/2001 12:54:24 To: idealcopy@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists not a word yet for Pino Palladino or Mick Karn or the round headed bloke from Level 42?? Fretless slap - all very unpleasant. Thanks to Andrew W. for sorting out the Hornsey Transfer mystery. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:20:17 +0100 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists > -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Howard Spencer [mailto:hspencer@oup.co.uk] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. Februar 2001 13:54 > An: idealcopy@smoe.org > Betreff: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists > > > not a word yet for Pino Palladino or Mick Karn or the round > headed bloke > from Level 42?? Fretless slap - all very unpleasant. My vote goes for Captn. Sensible. I saw the Damned live 20 years ago and the most memorable moment was when he opend a beer bottle and took a shower from half a litre of best bavarian beer. Frank from Bavaria ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:24:04 -0000 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass In order to clear up any lingering doubt and to make those who were there (England) then (1977) helplessly nostalgic, as far as I can recall the Worst bass player was, of course, Woody. I might be wrong - it was all a long time ago. And all this talk of punk rock ... my memories are that Wire might have started on the punk rock track but very rapidly shunted themselves up their own siding quite separate from evryone else. An integral part of "Live at the Roxy", but their outing as art students of more mature years than most, their unpunk names, the exagerrated cockney accent, records on Harvest (home of the hippies), none of these provided the authenticity required of the times. A nice trick accomplished in the time after "Pink Flag" with the comedy 7"ers of "I am the Fly" and "Dot Dash" - securing of timeless status as supreme pop ironists, separate and independnent from the punk rock stampede that brought us the Lurkers and Sham 69. In contrast to the influence that they have in modern times, I can't think of many groups that had as little influence in their day as Wire. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:26:03 +0100 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: [idealcopy] Adventurous Bands > -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: giluz [mailto:giluz@nettalk.com] > Gesendet: Montag, 29. Januar 2001 10:03 > An: IdealCopy; Garry Phillipson > Betreff: RE: [idealcopy] Adventurous Bands > > > > I haven't seen anyone mention Soul Coughing yet - to me > they're one of the > > few to stand alongside Wire for adventure, experimentation > - and let's not > > forget ridiculous lyrics.... > > I don't own anything by them but anything I heard was really good - > certainly one of the best bands around nowadays. Besides, > their drummer's > from Israel. Hi, to me they sound like a poor man's "they might be giants". But, I only know/have "el oyo" ( spelling ??? ). Frank from Bavaria ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:36:56 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists > The slap-head from Level 42 is Mark King. Like I said, I can't stand the > music but he is regarded as a very godd (technically) bass player. That's > why it's hard to decide who is good or bad. A technically good bass player could easily be considered as a bad one, to my opinion. So far, Mark King leaves all of the other potential candidates far behind - he's the worst bass player suggested here. As for Wobble, this is exactly the sort of thing that makes him a great bass player: Even when he could hardly play technically, he had massive sound and great bass riffs. I think those should be the criterions for being a good bass player: sound/presence and the bass lines themselves. cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 13:56:30 -0000 From: "ian jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett/Magazine Hannett produced Magazine's 3rd LP, "The Correct Use Of Soap". recommend first 3 Lp's , "Real Life", "Secondhand Daylight", "...Soap" plus live LP "Play", all classics, essential to be honest. ian.s.j. >From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk >To: idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett >Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:28:57 +0000 > >I didn't realise Martin Hannett had produced Magazine. I bought the "And >Here Is The Young Man" CD the other day. Good compilation. So now I'm >looking for ideas for my first Magazine purchase. > >Chris. > > >The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged >and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the >intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or >use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:06:29 -0000 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] OT : re worst bass player my vote goes to that tit out of the Blow Monkeys. May have been an o.k. player, but having seen them on a recent T.O.T.P.2, who cares??? ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 09:38:11 -0500 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] runk pock In America, you can use the first Patti Smith album (1975?) as a good nexus for the history of punk rock. Her antecedents - Velvets natch, w/ the John Cale connection to the fore, plus covers of "Pale Blue Eyes" and "Real Good Time" in the set. In 1975, aside from Patti, the only other (this is an exageration) "punk" albums around were the Modern Lovers first album (also produced by Cale) and "Raw Power". "Raw Power" is produced by Bowie - who was his own Lou Reed fan (Spiders from Mars cover Velvets tunes in concert) and salvation club - ie. his production of "Transformer". Also the Patti Smith Group also draws heavily on Rolling Stones iconagraphy, along with a heavy dose of American 60s garage rock (like Stooges did) and Ornette Coleman styled "free" jazz. Patti gets her gigs in the New York night clubs of CBGB and Max's Kansas City. Max's has long been home for the NYC rock nite denizens and home of the Velvets, the Warhol crowd, and whatever existed of the NY glam scene - esp. NY Dolls. Between the Dolls/Max's scene and the newly opened CBGB scene around PSG you have practically the whole NYC punk movement - Television, PSG, Ramones, Talking Heads, Blondie forment the CB's sound, Dolls spawn Thunders into the mix, who joins with Hell for Heartbreakers, and then Hell creates Voidoids - who are the nuevo punk c. 77 par excellence. Of course Dolls also spawn D. Johansen solo and Syl Sylvain bands but they remain rather minor. Bob Quine of Voidoids later joins Lou's 80's band, completing a circle. NYC serves as a target point for all other "likeminded" bands coming out of nascent othertown scenes - Cleveland for Ubu, Bizzaros (V.U. connection via Sterling), Rubber City Rebels; Detroit sends in Wayne Kramer - who hooks up w/ Thunders, and Destroy All Monsters, themselves very Stooges/MC5 influenced. So, it keeps flowing together. Punk Rock 70s styled - in America at least - is the Velvets and the Stones plus Bowie plus in a thousand permutations. The American scene was absent the overt class consiousness, social fabric commentary that a lot of the UK bands wove into the music, but musically I think a strong case could be made that it was the Americans (esp Heartbreakers, Voidoids, and Ramones) visiting that helped mutate the pubbish rock sound into the classic speed-n-razorwire sound that became London '77. I'm only on my first cup of coffee, and I know there are a lot of holes in this story, but I do think it creates a nice frame to hang the punk picture on. - Steve. G >From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey >To: A Rich and Comfortable Life with Paper >Subject: [idealcopy] runk pock >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:32:00 -0600 (CST) > >Movements invent their own antecedents, as someone smarter than me once >said (can't remember who). > >That is, once you have Punk Rock, it's easier to look backwards and say, >oh, such-and-such a band was punk rock too - even though at the time that >band wouldn't have considered themselves such. It's pretty easy to trace a >fairly continuous chain back: Sex Pistols-Ramones-Iggy-Velvets, or >alternatively through MC5 back to garagey-punk acts of the mid-sixties, or >alternatively through the Ubu-centered Ohio scene of the mid/early >seventies... But until Punk Rock as such came along (and no, I'm not going >to enter that fray), it was hard to see all those bands as elements of >punk history (it was hard to see them at all, of course). > >And all of that is thinking primarily in musical terms: if you look at >politics and fashion, you get a whole 'nother picture. > >--Jeff > >J e f f r e y N o r m a n >The Architectural Dance Society >www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html >::I'M ONLY AS LARGE AS AN ANT AND I'M HIDING INSIDE YOUR CAR:: >__cryptic placemat phrase, Madison WI, 1986__ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 17:15:36 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] runk pock > So, it keeps flowing together. Punk Rock 70s styled - in America > at least - > is the Velvets and the Stones plus Bowie plus in a thousand > permutations. > The American scene was absent the overt class consiousness, social fabric > commentary that a lot of the UK bands wove into the music, but > musically I > think a strong case could be made that it was the Americans (esp > Heartbreakers, Voidoids, and Ramones) visiting that helped mutate the > pubbish rock sound into the classic speed-n-razorwire sound that became > London '77. Of course you're right, but whoever it was that said so on the list is right too: Those punk pioneers that you mentioned were the only ones at their times, and they didn't get any commercial success or create a big enough musical scene. It took the Sex Pistols to do that and enable all the others to get record deals, press coverage and decent gigs. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:12:18 EST From: WAndyComer@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] runk pock perhaps i'm still waking up, but....who the hell were PSG? andy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 15:32:03 -0000 From: "ian jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] OT : PSG??? maybe the Pet Shop Girls or is this a reference to French football??? i feel mysterious today (and evil)... ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:48:13 EST From: WAndyComer@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] PSG?? here's the context: Between the Dolls/Max's scene and the newly opened CBGB scene around PSG you have practically the whole NYC punk movement - Television, PSG, Ramones, Talking Heads, Blondie forment now....what's PSG?? andy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:24:39 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PSG?? Patti Smith Group? John - --- WAndyComer@aol.com wrote: > here's the context: > > Between the Dolls/Max's scene > and the newly opened CBGB scene around PSG you have > practically the whole > NYC punk movement - Television, PSG, Ramones, > Talking Heads, Blondie forment > > now....what's PSG?? > > andy __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:48:44 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PSG?? Yep. God, am I feeling old (still recovering from last night's Amy Rigby show ... good to know the lady rocks out on stage, far more than on her rather folkish/countryesque albums, evincing full well the fact that she moved up to NYC as a kid [she's my age -- 41] to partake of the very scene being rhapsodized below). Dan >Patti Smith Group? > >John >--- WAndyComer@aol.com wrote: >> here's the context: >> >> Between the Dolls/Max's scene >> and the newly opened CBGB scene around PSG you have >> practically the whole >> NYC punk movement - Television, PSG, Ramones, >> Talking Heads, Blondie forment >> >> now....what's PSG?? >> >> andy > > >__________________________________________________ >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:12:29 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PSG?? > here's the context: > > Between the Dolls/Max's scene > and the newly opened CBGB scene around PSG you have practically the whole > NYC punk movement - Television, PSG, Ramones, Talking Heads, Blondie forment > > now....what's PSG?? > Wait...wait... I know this.... Patti Smith Group? Do I get a prize now? Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:19:31 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' > > I think most listers would recommend > > A-Z as the best early CN album. > > I wouldn't!! I find A-Z a somewhat annoying listen > (although there are some gems on there) -- Singing > Fish/Not to is far better IMO, even if the production > is a bit iffy. :) > (Standard disclaimer - my opinions only. Take with what pinch of salt you'd like.) Hmm - I don't know. With my Wire tastes - I would have been really disappointed if I'd heard Singing Fish/Not to first. I think it might depend on what Wire you prefer - 70's or 80's. I'm a 80's period Wire fan myself, and I prefer A-Z, so make of that what you will (^_^). Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:34:17 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] PSG?? >> here's the context: >> >> Between the Dolls/Max's scene >> and the newly opened CBGB scene around PSG you have practically the whole > >> NYC punk movement - Television, PSG, Ramones, Talking Heads, Blondie >forment >> >> now....what's PSG?? >> > > >Wait...wait... I know this.... > > >Patti Smith Group? > >Do I get a prize now? > >Cheers, >Paul 'Fraid not ... my answer arrived first (at least according to my machine), but I'll let you have it anyway -- I got my prize (free CD) last night for being the only one in the audience to know the answer to Rigby's question about which drummer had written the song she was about to sing. Lots of clueless guesses from the dodgy dunderheads in the audience -- Mick Fleetwood? Don Henley (God, the Eagles are so alien to my universe ... my girlfriend likes them, which is a source of some agony, beating the hell out of the discomfiture engendered by whatever unfortunate song Ray [I think] said his wife likes; maybe Free Ride or something like that ... that I had no clue he played that instrument)? -- but the dead giveaway was when she mentioned that the song was written about working in Wal-Mart -- Moe Tucker, of course. Whom I saw come onstage & play an encore with the Violent Femmes circa 1982 in a hardcore punk club back in Phoenix, when she was a housewife in a swanky local suburb, before getting divorced & having to move to Georgia or wherever & work at the aforementioned discount chain. (Had the CD autographed to my girlfriend, of course, since I already had all her stuff.) Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:18:06 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #32 Michael, Of course "The Ballad of John and Yoko" is just John (gtr/vocals) and Paul (bass/drums). Mark << >Ringo drummed on Harrison's _All THings Must Pass_ and, I believe, on >parts of _Imagine_, Ringo drumed on Plastic Ono Band (my fav. Lennon). May have been on Imagine too, I don't remember, but at least some of that was Keltner. and Harrison played guitar for both Starr >("Photograph," which he co-wrote) and Lennon (the solo on "Gimme Some >Truth" is his). George was (also?) on the Paul-bashing "How Do You Sleep?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:40:07 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass Chris, << Peter Hook in certain circles is regarded as very average. >> Which circles? The deaf? One of the most innovative bass players of all time, to a point of redefining the instrument's role within a group sound. And a fantastic sense of melody. Hooky would be battling with Steve Hanley for the bass spot in my all-time best group, not the all-time worst! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:44:11 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Velvet Linda's Sausage Underground mark said >>>>>>>The radical thing was the fact that the album was a conscious attempt to NOT play loud'n'heavy - which was what everyone else was doing at the time. So the Velvets concentrated on the softer element of their sound that had always been there (eg Sunday morning/I'll be your mirror). Also with Cale gone there was a desire on Lou's part to move away from his influence. I've read that the lighter direction of the third album was due to the VU having all their fuzzboxes and big amps stolen and being unable to afford to replace them... it might not be true, but someone in or close to the band said that - it might have been their very unpopular manager. Giluz said >>>>>Now: this is a real tough one: Does anyone on this list think that Linda McCartney had any talent? No idea. But her vegetarian sausages were way too fatty for my liking and they filled my flat with nasty smoke when grilled. At least lennon/ono were happy with brown rice! Linda and her dope smokin' hubby did contribute a little to my happiness by unwittingly providing some music for Stock, Hausen & Walkman to rearrange as 'Simply' on a V/Vm xmas single, which can be downloaded from the V/Vm website http://www.brainwashed.com/vvm And where does all this 'Oh no! Yoko!' business leave Angela Conway and Graham's wife (who co-wrote lyrics for 'What Do You See?'). Could it be that Wire were so much more interesting than the Beatles because they had 3 Yokos? Oh no! :-) Anyway the only Beatles tracks that do much for me anymore is the long electro-acoustic thing on the white album & Rain & Tomorrow Never Knows. There is a Lennon/Ono song that goes 'Don't Worry Kyoko' which I have on a tape somewhere which is better than most Lennon/McCartney IMO but I'm sure 99% of pop pickers would disagree with me on that. I'd rather listen to New order 'Movement' where oldies are concerned - how could the production of their best song 'Dreams Never End' be improved? Which is the best Section 25? (I've heard and liked at least a couple of early tracks which sounded v. Joy Division influenced) I've never heard of Switchblade Symphony - Serpentine Gallery What's it like? Worst bassist (Linda M vox/keyboards)? Go for poor old Sydney Vish becuz any band with 2 ded people in would surely be worth any price for the sheer spectacle of it. Bez must dance for them - he always seemed quite corpse like! >>>>Half the time he (Sid) wasn't even playing. He was busy re-inventing 'minimalism' but Bez went all the way with no bass at all! >>>>>Your only chance to hear Sid's bass "playing" is on bootlegs, where he's usually turned way down. And on Rotten vox live 'Belsen' on the Swindle double... OK you can't really hear him maybe he'd fallen off the stage by then. I found 'punk thing' but I'm keeping it to myself... Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:43:44 -0000 From: "scott kellock" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] runk pock - ----- Original Message ----- From: "stephen graziano" To: ; Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] runk pock > In America, you can use the first Patti Smith album (1975?) as a good nexus > for the history of punk rock. Her antecedents - Velvets natch, w/ the John > Cale connection to the fore, plus covers of "Pale Blue Eyes" and "Real Good > Time" in the set. In 1975, aside from Patti, the only other (this is an > exageration) "punk" albums around were the Modern Lovers first album (also > produced by Cale) and "Raw Power". "Raw Power" is produced by Bowie - who > was his own Lou Reed fan (Spiders from Mars cover Velvets tunes in concert) > and salvation club - ie. his production of "Transformer". Also the Patti > Smith Group also draws heavily on Rolling Stones iconagraphy, along with a > heavy dose of American 60s garage rock (like Stooges did) and Ornette > Coleman styled "free" jazz. Patti gets her gigs in the New York night > clubs of CBGB and Max's Kansas City. Max's has long been home for the NYC > rock nite denizens and home of the Velvets, the Warhol crowd, and whatever > existed of the NY glam scene - esp. NY Dolls. Between the Dolls/Max's scene > and the newly opened CBGB scene around PSG you have practically the whole > NYC punk movement - Television, PSG, Ramones, Talking Heads, Blondie forment > the CB's sound, Dolls spawn Thunders into the mix, who joins with Hell for > Heartbreakers, and then Hell creates Voidoids - who are the nuevo punk c. 77 > par excellence. Of course Dolls also spawn D. Johansen solo and Syl Sylvain > bands but they remain rather minor. Bob Quine of Voidoids later joins Lou's > 80's band, completing a circle. NYC serves as a target point for all other > "likeminded" bands coming out of nascent othertown scenes - Cleveland for > Ubu, Bizzaros (V.U. connection via Sterling), Rubber City Rebels; Detroit > sends in Wayne Kramer - who hooks up w/ Thunders, and Destroy All Monsters, > themselves very Stooges/MC5 influenced. > > So, it keeps flowing together. Punk Rock 70s styled - in America at least - > is the Velvets and the Stones plus Bowie plus in a thousand permutations. > The American scene was absent the overt class consiousness, social fabric > commentary that a lot of the UK bands wove into the music, but musically I > think a strong case could be made that it was the Americans (esp > Heartbreakers, Voidoids, and Ramones) visiting that helped mutate the > pubbish rock sound into the classic speed-n-razorwire sound that became > London '77. > > I'm only on my first cup of coffee, and I know there are a lot of holes in > this story, but I do think it creates a nice frame to hang the punk picture > on. - Steve. G Steve Whats this a lesson on American punk ? You forgot the DeadBoys with the late "Stiv Bator" who went on to form "Lords of The New Church". checkout their albums. I must say I liked alot of the Amercan Bands especially Television, Heartbreakers,PSG,Ramones,The Tubes (remember them) and Devo were just superb. Cheers Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:48:24 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Velvet Linda's Sausage Underground >Which is the best Section 25? (I've heard and liked at >least a couple of early tracks which sounded v. Joy >Division influenced) Always Now, their first one, recently reissued on CD on LTM with all sorts of neat bonus tracks (including my personal favorite, After Image). Well worth picking up. > >I've never heard of Switchblade Symphony - Serpentine >Gallery >What's it like? Primo Banshees, as much as anything. Pretty good stuff. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:56:13 -0800 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass I guess the comment from Chris is more at the fact that Peter is not a very technical bass player (well, may be not much at all)... but that seems to be what drove him to his style, in that he did not confine himself to the typical role of a bass guitar... that plus the fact that the guitar in Joy Division was not doing the melody... and the PA was shit, so he had to turn the volume up to hear himself play. I go with Mark, that technical prowess is not all that matters in a bassist... in that camp you have Sid and Peter, but Peter did something very meaningful.... even when ripping-off others for a bit of baseline on a song (e.g., from the Phil Spector produced "Then He Kissed Me" on Love Will Tear Us Apart)... visceral playing has some good going for it! - -fernando At 01:40 PM 2/1/01 -0500, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >Chris, > ><< Peter Hook in certain circles is regarded as very average. >> > >Which circles? The deaf? > >One of the most innovative bass players of all time, to a point of redefining >the instrument's role within a group sound. And a fantastic sense of melody. > >Hooky would be battling with Steve Hanley for the bass spot in my all-time >best group, not the all-time worst! > >Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:00:52 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass Stephen, << In contrast to the influence that they have in modern times, I can't think of many groups that had as little influence in their day as Wire. >> This is an incredible - and mind-blowingly wrong - comment! Notwithstanding the hordes of rubbish bands that used to cover the likes of Mannequin, Wire in 78-79 forced a whole heap of bands to make wholesale changes to their sound. In particular Joy Division and The Cure both owed an immense debt to Wire in that they slowed down, and made their sound denser and darker. Both bands supported Wire in early 79. Robert Smith publically acknowledged this in a fairly recent article in a musician's magazine, putting down the change in sound from 3 Imaginary Boys to 17 Seconds down to supporting Wire. I know the influence spread deeper. Most of the factory bands were besotted with Wire, and Factory had at one point considered trying to sign Wire (after they left Harvest). Never mind Blur/Elastica etc....Wire were enormously influential first time round. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:01:29 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re:bad bassists ///////mmm , we could go for a few tracks in that wonderful smokey 1983 style. or maybe not. or how about david j ; the hip version of the above? p not a word yet for Pino Palladino or Mick Karn or the round headed bloke from Level 42?? Fretless slap - all very unpleasant. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:02:35 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] Adventurous Bands Frank, Can't say I've heard that much by Soul Coughing, but I do agree with you. Too quirky/whacky for my liking... Mark << > > I haven't seen anyone mention Soul Coughing yet - to me > they're one of the > > few to stand alongside Wire for adventure, experimentation > - and let's not > > forget ridiculous lyrics.... > > I don't own anything by them but anything I heard was really good - > certainly one of the best bands around nowadays. Besides, > their drummer's > from Israel. Hi, to me they sound like a poor man's "they might be giants". But, I only know/have "el oyo" ( spelling ??? >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:04:11 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (off topic?)Punk Pasul, << but then maybe i'm an old fart :-) >> I've always considered old fart an attitude, a state of mind rather than a sound.... Mark ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:09:30 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Cog Sinister I know this subject is dead but looking on allmusic.com just now the following artists are listed under the Cog Sinister name: The Fall Phil Sh venfelt Who is this Phil geezer? ////// dunno. but cog sinister did release some records by other acts ; i have an andrew berry single (pretty good) and there was an album (?) by john the postman. maybe phil sh and venfelt were other acts on their roster? p ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:10:25 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player Paul, I remeber enjoying seeing Looking after number one on a '77 evening pop show (may have been Marc, more likely Lift Off with Ayshea!!) but subsequent records were increasingly dire. Rat Trap as number 1..........I remember thinking, of all the punk records, why did this have to be the one to get to number 1? Not a fan either... Mark << Hello? A Tonic for the Troops is an excellent album. The Rats were generally good. The steaming pile of shite still applies to his solo career however. ////// sorry to diagree but IMO they were a dire pub rock act with no redeeming features. geldof was a piss-poor jagger impersonator. together with toyah and hazel o'connor he made a holy trinity of duff power pop rubbish. compared to what else was going on at the time they were atrocious. you could say i wasn't a fan :-) p -- >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 14:14:14 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass << Peter Hook in certain circles is regarded as very average. >> Which circles? The deaf? One of the most innovative bass players of all time, to a point of redefining the instrument's role within a group sound. And a fantastic sense of melody. Hooky would be battling with Steve Hanley for the bass spot in my all-time best group, not the all-time worst! //// so what did you think of revenge mark? p ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #35 ******************************