From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #33 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, January 31 2001 Volume 04 : Number 033 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] OT: Ono [Anthony Clough ] [idealcopy] OT I Feel Like Buddy [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] [idealcopy] Re: sweet FA -VERY OFF TOPIC [Howard Spencer ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Love & Rockets [Carl Archer ] [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #32 ["dMc" ] [idealcopy] OT: Top 100 Rock Moments - From NME [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] [idealcopy] Re: (random off-topic comments)who was on first ["dMc" ] RE: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [John Roberts ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass [John Roberts ] Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: punk names [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: (random off-topic comments)who was on first [PaulRabj] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re:ot bass [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: punk names [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [Jonathan Land Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Ono In the conventional sense of the term I don't rate Yoko as a singer but in context there is some stuff that people on this list might enjoy. Try "Why" from "Yoko Ono Plastic Ono Band", several minutes of mighty screaming over some wild guitar from John and a heavy beat from Ringo and Klaus Vorman. Also "Fly" has an interesting mixture of songs, jams and a side of Yoko sqwaking over a backing made by various contraptions and a side of Cage-like vocalise. Tony. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:29:06 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT I Feel Like Buddy Thanks to everyone who helped with this. Alvin Stardust it is then. Was there a song that included the line "I feel like Buddy Holl 'cause it's raining in my heart"? Reply off-list. Chris. Howard Spencer on 31/01/2001 11:28:29 To: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS cc: Subject: Alvin Stardust is the name you are looking for. Title `I feel like Buddy Holly'. Covered, expertly, by Ted chippington. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:48:31 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: sweet FA -VERY OFF TOPIC > On the topic of L&R - what is the meaning of the phrase "Sweet F.A."? > Very off topic, except the interest in word etymologies is quite wire like, I guess. This can also stand for `Sweet Fanny Adams' - a young girl who was murdered in 1867 near Alton, Hampshire. Murderer gave himself away by writing `killed a young girl today - it was fine and warm' in his diary entry for the day in question. At around the same time a particularly foul kind of tinned meat was intoduced into the rations of the sailors garrisoned in Portsmouth - with typical forces black humour, this became known as Sweet Fanny Adams. Later the phrase was transmuted into a `polite' substitute for `fuck all', and abbreviated. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:04:26 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: punk names >He's no more fictional than any of the punk rockers who took fake names >(eg, Johnny Rotten or Klive Nice and Hornsey Transfer). I know that Colin was Klive Nice, but who was Hornsey transfer? Graham? Wasn't he at Hornsey art college (had a fearsome radical reputation at one point, now closed). Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:00:35 -0500 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Love & Rockets "Lift" is good. I listen to a lot of techno, house, drum n bass, etc. I like it. I can see why it would disappoint an old-school fan. "Hot Trip To Heaven" is weak. It annoyed me from the get go, and I will not buy it despite owning most of the rest of their catalog. - -Carl on 1/31/01 4:14 AM, Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk at Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk wrote: > I bought Hot Trip To Heaven (?) recently. Urrgh. Put me off Love & Rockets > for life. > > Chris. > > > > > "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" on 30/01/2001 20:08:07 > > To: idealcopy@smoe.org > cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) > > Subject: > > > > >> Here is my latest 'top 20' picks for the work week! > [...] >> Love and Rockets - Lift > > You actually *like* it? I could hardly stand the "Happy Fool" CD single. > "Lift" is just making me sleep - too monotonous, just droning techno music. > Nothing like the L&R I liked before. > > On the topic of L&R - what is the meaning of the phrase "Sweet F.A."? > > Syarzhuk > > Be healthy, stay wealthy... > > Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:51:22 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #32 > Again, this is what happened once the flood gates opened. And of course, > music changed forever in the wake of punk.But no Sex Pistols, no Wire.Simple > as that. No Iggy - No Ramones - No New York Dolls None of the above > I guess you had to be there..... I was ^_^ flagwearing d ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:53:15 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] Re:ot bass > 1. inept > 2. tedious > 3. pretentious > 4. combinations of the above >> > > Derek Smalls?? John Wetton (Derek Smalls spiritual father) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:47:33 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Top 100 Rock Moments - From NME A further step towards NME's transformation in to Smash Hits. Chris. 1. Kurt Cobain's death 2. The Sex Pistols swear on TV 3. Dylan goes electric 4. The KLF's art terrorism at the Brits 1992 5. The deaths of Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls 6. The birth of acid house 7. Napster 8. The Manic Street Preachers' Richey carves 4 Real' into his arm 9. Berry Gordy founds Motown 10. James Brown at Harlem Apollo 11. Bowie retires Ziggy Stardust 12. Run DMC and Aerosmith in the first rap/rock crossover 13. 'Rapper's Delight' - hip hop's breakthrough record 14. Woody Guthrie's guitar bearing the legend: "This Machine Kills Fascists" 15. The Wu-Tang Clan's Ol' Dirty Bastard goes on the run 16. Cover shot of The Clash's 'London Calling' album 17. The Beastie Boys' audience riots in Liverpool 18. Public Enemy release 'Fight The Power' 19. M/A/R/R/S reach Number One with 'Pump Up The Volume' 20. Elvis shocks America with his gyrating hips 21. Jerry Lee Lewis is banned from Britain 22. U2 and Ash get together to try to bring peace to Northern Ireland 23. John Lennon claims that The Beatles are bigger than Jesus 24. The Stones' Jagger and Richards are arrested 25. New Order release Blue Monday' 26. The Dead Kennedys ridicule San Francisco's rock aristocracy at a local awards ceremony 27. 2 Live Crew get done for obscenity 28. Syd Barrett loses his mind 29. Charles Manson hears The Beatles' 'White Album' 30. Phil Spector revolutionises production techniques 31. The Jesus And Mary Chain incite a riot at a London gig 32. Michael Jackson moonwalks 33. Gene Vincent introduces leather boots and booze to rock'n'roll 34. The Battle of Britpop (Oasis vs Blur) 35. Robert Johnson sells his soul to the Devil 36. Method Man/Mary J Blige team up in the first hip hop/soul crossover 37. The Rolling Stones at Altamont 38. The BBC ban Frankie Goes To Hollywood's 'Relax' 39. George Michael outs himself on video 40. The Smiths' first tour 41. Serge Gainsbourg tells Whitney Houston that he'd "like to fuck" her on a French chat show 42. The first Velvet Underground gig after meeting Andy Warhol 43. The utter debauchery of New York's Studio 54 nightclub 44. Super Furry Animals' 'The Man Don't Give A Fuck' single 45. The death of Buddy Holly 46. The Prodigy's Firestarter' video 47. Boy George introduces sexual ambiguity to the nation on 'Top Of The Pops' 48. Jarvis Cocker waggles his behind at Michael Jackson at the 1996 Brit Awards 49. The Castlemorton rave, 1992 50. The Stooges' chaotic/disastrous/debauched 1973 tour 51. The release of 'This Is Spinal Tap' 52. Elvis' 'Comeback Special' 53. Lee Perry burns down his Black Ark studio 54. Oasis threaten to burn down King Tut's Wah Wah Hut if they don't get to play there 55. Radiohead at Glastonbury, 1997 56. The release of Primal Scream's 'Screamadelica' 57. Bob Marley & The Wailers' legendary gig at London Lyceum 58. The release of Marvin Gaye's 'What's Going On' 59. The Beatles play Shea Stadium 60. Kraftwerk use robots onstage 61. The Rolling Stones' 'Jumpin' Jack Flash' video 62. NME invents the UK singles chart 63. Riots at Blackboard Jungle' movie 64. The Beatles release 'Sgt Pepper's...' 65. Ozzy Osbourne bites the head off a bat 66. The Jam split 67. Pulp at Glastonbury, 1995 68. The Up In Smoke tour, featuring Eminem and Dr Dre 69. Charlton Heston's speech to Time Warner shareholders, following the release of Ice-T's 'Cop Killer' 70. Jimi Hendrix plays the Monterey Pop Festival 71. Crosby Stills Nash &Young record 'Ohio' 72. The Stone Roses at Spike Island 73. Bob Dylan makes 'Subterranean Homesick Blues' 'video' 74. Eminem appears with a horde of fake Eminems at the MTV Awards 75. Pink Floyd's Technicolor Dream 24-hour rave 76. The release of The Specials' 'Ghost Town' single 77. The kidnapping of Gram Parsons' corpse 78. NME's Shaun Ryder On E cover 79. The first Glastonbury festival 80. Police and travellers trade blows at the Battle Of The Beanfield 81. Link Wray loses a lung and invents punk! 82. Dexys Midnight Runners kidnap their own mastertapes 83. The formation of Led Zeppelin 84. Jim Morrison arrested for indecent exposure 85. Sid Vicious performing 'My Way' 86. MC5 swear and get dropped 87. Roky Erickson of the 13th Floor Elevators invents psychedelia and loses his mind 88. Brian Wilson loses his marbles 89. The release of Lou Reed's 'Metal Machine Music' LP 90. The 'Bohemian Rhapsody' bit in `Wayne's World' 91. Belle And Sebastian win a Brit award 92. The unveiling of George Clinton's Mothership 93. The Woodstock '99 riot 94. My Bloody Valentine almost bankrupt Creation 95. The Verve's video for Bitter Sweet Symphony' 96. Neil Young sued for not sounding like Neil Young 97. Keith Richards' "Who the fuck is Mick Jagger?" T-shirt 98. John Fogerty sued for sounding like Creedence Clearwater Revival 99. The existence of two Fleetwood Macs during the early '70s 100. George Jones' lawnmower The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:23:25 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: (random off-topic comments)who was on first paul raabjohn said: >" you've got a genuinely exciting and innovative scene with its own momentum. sad thing is its never happened here again (the US got its own version with nirvana of course). What we got in the us was the bloody Stone Temple Pilots and our SP, (Smashing Pumpkins) and a bunch of metal retrod in flannel shirts. No real comparison to your punk years, I assure you. As to the innovations of Kraftwerk - influential as they are, the curious are instructed to examine Raymond Scott's "manhattan Research Inc" and "Soothing Sounds for Baby" Volums 1-3 for electronic innovation seriously predating Rolf and Florian's. This weeks top rotation: (I'll join the fray) Joy Zipper - S/T (Popsongs about Buddhism) One Star - Triangulum (Indie JPOP) Various Artistas - Por Que No Puedo Sera Tu (Cure Tribute en espanol - really really good - the songs lend themselves to the language well) Fall - Unutterable (I concur with all the recent tribulation - and my wife likes it too) Bund Deutche Programierer - Stoffwechsel (Atom heart by any other name would sound as...) Sussan Deyhim - Madman of God (more traditional than perhaps expected - there is no other voice like hers) Ryuichi Sakamoto - Gohatto (now he's copping from Takemitsu - and well at that - very listenable) ooioo - green and gold (oh my gawd - there's a trumpet on the first track - not jazz! - be sure to loop) sub ra - the great lost albums (as i wrote a pal this morning, ALL the Evidence/Saturn reissues are an American National Treasure and should be given historic monumental status) Still waiting to get my ears around Vladislaw Delay - Anima The Entire Works of Marcel Duchamp Bjork - Selmasongs lost in translation - domestic bliss the apples in stereo - fun trick noisemaker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:03:11 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: (random off-topic comments)who was on first > As to the innovations of Kraftwerk - influential as they are, the curious > are instructed to examine Raymond Scott's "manhattan Research Inc" and > "Soothing Sounds for Baby" Volums 1-3 for electronic innovation seriously > predating Rolf and Florian's. Please elaborate. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:26:03 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: (random off-topic comments)who was on first Raymond Scott--is that the fellow that invented all those wonderful, weird pre-moog synthesizers? I only recently found out about him, but am seriously intrigued. For now I'll have to stick to "The Man Machine" and "Radioactivity". I'm broke, you see. Jack - --- giluz wrote: > > As to the innovations of Kraftwerk - influential > as they are, the curious > > are instructed to examine Raymond Scott's > "manhattan Research Inc" and > > "Soothing Sounds for Baby" Volums 1-3 for > electronic innovation seriously > > predating Rolf and Florian's. > > Please elaborate. > > giluz __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 07:37:37 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' Were Colin Newman's first solo outings ever pressed on CD? The earliest CN cd I can find is "It Seems", and while I have "Commercial Suicide" on lp, I'd like to have it and the early stuff on compact disc as well. Ignorantly yours, Jack __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:00:30 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' A-Z / Singing Fish / Not To are available on CD. It Seems & Commercial Suicide are not anymore (and are not due for rerelease either). I think most listers would recommend A-Z as the best early CN album. giluz > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of j alberson > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:38 PM > To: Idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' > > > Were Colin Newman's first solo outings ever pressed on > CD? The earliest CN cd I can find is "It Seems", and > while I have "Commercial Suicide" on lp, I'd like to > have it and the early stuff on compact disc as well. > > Ignorantly yours, > Jack > > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:24:59 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' I've got A-Z on CD (picked up used right here in river city at Been Around a few years ago), & if memory serves (too lazy -- well, actually too sleepy, since I'm working midnights again but got up early to take the dog into the vet since I'm taking the day off to see Amy Rigby tonight -- to check the discography site) Singing Fish & Not To may've been issued on a single CD. Also, early copies of one of the above included a bonus EP of singles-only & otherwise unreleased tracks called (if memory serves) CN1, which unfortunately has eluded my grasp all these years ... copies on eBay tend to exceed my price range these days, sharply curtailed as it is by my first car payments in 7 years, correspondingly much higher insurance rates, the occasional traffic ticket (2 in 3 months after 1 in some 20 years ... I don't like the way this trend is going) & of course a psychiatrist in a pear tree. Dan >Were Colin Newman's first solo outings ever pressed on >CD? The earliest CN cd I can find is "It Seems", and >while I have "Commercial Suicide" on lp, I'd like to >have it and the early stuff on compact disc as well. > >Ignorantly yours, >Jack > >__________________________________________________ >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:26:40 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' >A-Z / Singing Fish / Not To are available on CD. It Seems & Commercial >Suicide are not anymore (and are not due for rerelease either). I think most >listers would recommend A-Z as the best early CN album. IIIIIII certainly would ... ranks right behind the Holy Trinity (Pink Flag, Chairs Missing & 154, of course) amongst my top, oh, 25 or so albums of all time. Back to bed ... Dan > >giluz > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org >> [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of j alberson >> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:38 PM >> To: Idealcopy@smoe.org >> Subject: [idealcopy] CN's 'singing fish' >> >> >> Were Colin Newman's first solo outings ever pressed on >> CD? The earliest CN cd I can find is "It Seems", and >> while I have "Commercial Suicide" on lp, I'd like to >> have it and the early stuff on compact disc as well. >> >> Ignorantly yours, >> Jack >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:17:33 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE: [idealcopy] [OT] Love & Rockets >> I bought Hot Trip To Heaven (?) recently. Urrgh. >> Put me off Love & Rockets >> for life. >"Lift" is good. >"Hot Trip To Heaven" is weak. Now it's time for me to weigh in with my generally worthless opinions! (^_^) Love and Rockets can be broken down into two phases - pre-breakup and post break-up/reform. Of their Pre-breakup stuff, I like 7th Dream of Teenage Heaven, love Express, like Earth, Sun, Moon (a little less than the previous two), and try to ignore Love & Rockets. (The Bubblemen are Coming single merits a special nod) Of their Post-breakup stuff, Hot Trip to Heaven is o.k. (I sorta appreciate the ambient tack they were taking - others might find it boring.), Sweet F.A. is great - almost in league with 7th Dream and Express, and Lift is okay - but not quite my cup of tea. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:23:33 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player OK: no one else has dug this one out yet so I'm going to have to: Q: What do you call a dog with wings? John __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:25:11 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player > Q: What do you call a dog with wings? Linda McCartney? Jack __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:33:14 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass This reminds me of an interview with PiL in Smash Hits years ago (when it first came out Smash Hits used to have interviews with punk and new wave bands - I remember one of the first issues had Elvis Costello on the cover for example, and they even had an interview with Crass once). It was circa Metal Box and Lydon claimed in the interview that him and Sid had wanted to mix Never Mind the Bollocks similar to how First Edition was mixed i.e. bass heavy. But according to him they weren't allowed anywhere near the studio masters. I think this is a good example of Lydon revisionism meself. And anyway I always thought Keith Levine's playing on the first three PiL albums was awesome and surpasses anything Jones played - partic. on Metal Box and to a lesser extent on Flowers of Romance. I don't see Jones' riffing fitting with Wobble's amateurish bass playing - although I daresay that a different producer would have treated Jones' guitar differently i.e. not constructing that Pistols' studio sound of several hundred guitar tracks all playing the same chords. 8-) John > > //// and presumably the replacement lydon had in > mind would have been wobble > , his big mate of the time. so how about a 2nd > pistols album with a > lydon/wobble/cook/jones line up? could have been > good...... p __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:13:12 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player > So my comment about having to be there" doesn't > imply that you had to be an > ultra-hip London punk at the Vortex. I think I'm right in saying that if you were at the Vortex then you were late already. The Vortex was opened by Chelsea's (the group not the football team) manager Andy [?] after the 100 club, the Roxy etc. In retrospect it looks like the first instance of The Man descending. If you watch the Imaginary video: Punk: The Early Years you'll see the # signs in Andy [?] and Gene October's eyes as they're being interviewed. If you didn't know it you'd think they were a Spinal Tap punk band. It really > refers to being a > disillusioned teenage music fan in a shitty > provincial English town, and > getting swept up in a youth movement that blew apart > the music establishment > of the day... > Ditto here tho I was only 10 in 1977. All punk rock meant to me was having an excuse to swear and jump around like an idiot in the school playground. Some people say I haven't changed since... I think the dissillusionment and the politics came in later (particularly for me with Crass). It was a case of not realising I was dissillusioned until someone pointed it out for me. It fascinates me that in this day and age that young people still find punk rock so fascinating and such a source of authenticity (I'm talking about punk rock from the 70s). If I tell my students that I saw the Clash you see their jaws drop. I'd have thought in the current cultural climate that there are umpteen things that would get you excited more than a music scene from twenty five years ago. In the late 70s everything was in black and white including reality - that's why punk rock was so exciting then. I mean, the first bands that I *really* got into weren't the Pistols, it was the Boomtown Rats and the Buzzcocks cos you could see them on Top of the Pops. They seemed to be so exciting when compared to Leo Sayer, disco, Chicago, Dr Hook etc. They don't appear so spectacular now do they? Because they were banned the Sex Pistols were just something people talked about and who you'd occasionally see in Look In. Nobody I knew knew what they sounded like - we just knew that your parents didn;t want you to be listening to anything vaguely related to them. I was 13 before I dared even bring a Sex Pistols record into my parents' house. Still - if someone does get into punk rock in 2001 then it just goes to show how subjective dissillusionment and boredom is. I don't have a problem with it. I'd rather youngsters got interested in punk rock than say Marilyn Manson. What is a bit worrying here tho is the nostalgic element that inevitablty creeps in, and also with my own (and I suspect other listers') relation to punk rock. It's what makes me hate the three piece Husker Du rip offs that seem to fall under the banner of punk rock these days: what precisely is punk rock about churning out formulaic rock music? Thus it's also the thing that reminds me that punk rock was/is about being anti the status quo and being critical. Which in turn makes me both question and accept the mythological status accorded punk rock. Which, to bring us on topic, is probably why I like Wire so much: for me they court this paradox too. > > Agreed re Savage's book. It's the one to read. > Most definitely. Sorry for rambling... John __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:20:20 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player The old ones are always the best... John - --- j alberson wrote: > > Q: What do you call a dog with wings? > > Linda McCartney? > > Jack > > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - > only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:32:00 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [idealcopy] runk pock Movements invent their own antecedents, as someone smarter than me once said (can't remember who). That is, once you have Punk Rock, it's easier to look backwards and say, oh, such-and-such a band was punk rock too - even though at the time that band wouldn't have considered themselves such. It's pretty easy to trace a fairly continuous chain back: Sex Pistols-Ramones-Iggy-Velvets, or alternatively through MC5 back to garagey-punk acts of the mid-sixties, or alternatively through the Ubu-centered Ohio scene of the mid/early seventies... But until Punk Rock as such came along (and no, I'm not going to enter that fray), it was hard to see all those bands as elements of punk history (it was hard to see them at all, of course). And all of that is thinking primarily in musical terms: if you look at politics and fashion, you get a whole 'nother picture. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::I'M ONLY AS LARGE AS AN ANT AND I'M HIDING INSIDE YOUR CAR:: __cryptic placemat phrase, Madison WI, 1986__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:35:35 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono I've forgotten who wrote this, and it's unclear who wrote the comment about heroin...but no one outside a relationship has any right to judge whether or not the relationship is healthy, and if the relationship seems to be unhealthy, who's to say whose fault it is? //// i wrote the comment about heroin , i didn't think many people would consider a couple where both had big heroin habits to be in a "healthy relationship" As to the heroin thing: nothing Lennon wasn't completely forthright about, and what the hell does Yoko have to do with it? //// my understanding was that big big efforts were made to keep their drug habits secret in 67/68 (i.e well before "cold turkey") and that they were both in it together. and even now , they made a big point of airbrushing drugs out of the anthology videos. which were not "forthright" at all on the subject. I don't blame anyone for the breakup - it was, as I said, inevitable (that, or Allen Klein) - but the Yoko-blaming tends toward misogyny and xenophobia about 3/4 of the people who make that claim. I'm hoping whoever made it here is in the 1/4 who *don't* think that way. (Probably so, since if I recall, that person also championed Malka Spigel...) ///// well i can't recall anyone here blaming yoko for the split , just questioning her talent. and i think most people here would fall into your 25% (well i hope so) p J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ADS.html ::playing around with the decentered self is all fun and games ::until somebody loses an I. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh01.mail.aol.com (v77.31) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:54:11 -0500 Received: from smoe.org (jane.smoe.org [216.200.102.14]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:53:57 -0500 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id UAA21341; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:46:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:46:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id UAA21324 for idealcopy-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:46:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from batch3.csd.uwm.edu (batch3.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.7.226]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-jane) with ESMTP id UAA21319 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (jenor@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.169.203]) by batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with ESMTP id TAA11755 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:46:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (jenor@localhost) by alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (8.8.4/8.6.8) with SMTP id TAA03092 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:46:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:46:09 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey To: A Rich and Comfortable Life with Paper Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:39:50 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: punk names ///// i was wondering that myself. the worse punk name i can recall was a member of angletrax who called himself jerry minge , i thought that was sooo bad.p I know that Colin was Klive Nice, but who was Hornsey transfer? Graham? Wasn't he at Hornsey art college (had a fearsome radical reputation at one point, now closed). Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:44:08 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: (random off-topic comments)who was on first paul raabjohn said:stery@yahoo.com (dMc) Sender: owner-idealcopy@ >" you've got a genuinely exciting and innovative scene with its own momentum. sad thing is its never happened here again (the US got its own version with nirvana of course). What we got in the us was the bloody Stone Temple Pilots and our SP, (Smashing Pumpkins) and a bunch of metal retrod in flannel shirts. No real comparison to your punk years, I assure you. //////// nirvana were still great though. i guess if they were the new pistols then stone temple pilots were the new eater.p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:54:18 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass Lydon claimed in the interview that him and Sid had wanted to mix Never Mind the Bollocks similar to how First Edition was mixed i.e. bass heavy. But according to him they weren't allowed anywhere near the studio masters. I think this is a good example of Lydon revisionism meself. ////// absolutely. i seem to recall an interview in zigzag where lydon claimed him and sid had mixed a couple of tracks the way they wanted but the producer had done the rest "badly". another one to take with a pinch of salt i think......... And anyway I always thought Keith Levine's playing on the first three PiL albums was awesome and surpasses anything Jones played - partic. on Metal Box and to a lesser extent on Flowers of Romance. I don't see Jones' riffing fitting with Wobble's amateurish bass playing - although I daresay that a different producer would have treated Jones' guitar differently i.e. not constructing that Pistols' studio sound of several hundred guitar tracks all playing the same chords. 8-) ////// i just thought it would have been interesting idea to see what would have resulted. agreed levine is far more innovative than fatty jones. mind you , you wouldn't have guessed jones could have fitted in with the banshees but tracks like "paradise place" came out really well.p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:59:57 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player Roger Waters is a shite bass player. And a pretentious twat. Will he do? Mark >> ///// i said worlds worst band. not "worlds most bitter , twisted , humourless and egotistical band" :-) can you imagine being stuck in a lift with ol' rog for an hour? good to see him cashing in on his past rather desperately at present. but i love meddle and DSOTM so i can't let him in i'm afraid.p ps if this band is bad enough i might well use that "build a wall between artist and audience" idea. only make it 4-sided. then hire a concrete mixer....... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:05:48 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re:ot bass > 1. inept > 2. tedious > 3. pretentious > 4. combinations of the above >> > > Derek Smalls?? John Wetton (Derek Smalls spiritual father) ///// well he did play in roxy music. which is good. but also asia. very very bad indeed. having watched "marc" on tv recently i have a dark horse emerging........ herbie flowers. he usually adopts a "humorous" outfit like painters overalls , pyjamas , dungarees...... last week he played with an old boot hung off the end of his guitar (please herbie , spare my sides). he wrote "grandad" for clive dunn. he played in that horror of horrors sky (now there's a band i havn't slagged in a long time for which i apologise). i may give him a call and see if he's available (somehow i suspect he will be) p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:10:03 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player I mean, the first bands that I *really* got into weren't the Pistols, it was the Boomtown Rats and the Buzzcocks cos you could see them on Top of the Pops. They seemed to be so exciting when compared to Leo Sayer, disco, Chicago, Dr Hook etc. They don't appear so spectacular now do they? //// you know i loved the buzzcocks and i still think they stand up really well today. whereas bob geldof's entire life's work is an enormous steaming pile of shite. nice bloke or not. p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:22:17 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: punk names Excerpts from mail: 31-Jan-101 [idealcopy] Re: punk names by Howard Spencer@oup.co.uk > I know that Colin was Klive Nice, but who was Hornsey transfer? Graham? > Wasn't he at Hornsey art college (had a fearsome radical reputation at > one point, now closed). Hornsey Transfer was Graham. They were using pseudonyms for a short time when they were on that Live At The Roxy compilation. (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "Years of dealing with your kind has taught me patience." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:36:18 -0500 From: Jonathan Land Subject: Re: Fw: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player > I mean, > the first bands that I *really* got into weren't the > Pistols, it was the Boomtown Rats and the Buzzcocks > cos you could see them on Top of the Pops. They > seemed to be so exciting when compared to Leo Sayer, > disco, Chicago, Dr Hook etc. They don't appear so > spectacular now do they? > >//// you know i loved the buzzcocks and i still think they stand up really >well today. whereas bob geldof's entire life's work is an enormous steaming >pile of shite. nice bloke or not. p Hello? A Tonic for the Troops is an excellent album. The Rats were generally good. The steaming pile of shite still applies to his solo career however. Jon - -- http://incomplete.net - "If it's not here, it's incomplete!" "Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop taking amphetamines." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:00:01 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Worst Bass And anyway I always thought Keith >Levine's playing on the first three PiL albums was >awesome and surpasses anything Jones played - partic. >on Metal Box and to a lesser extent on Flowers of >Romance. I agree with this. I think a Pistols w/ Wobble would have been good, but not as good as PIL. I don't see Jones' riffing fitting with >Wobble's amateurish bass playing - although I daresay >that a different producer would have treated Jones' >guitar differently i.e. not constructing that Pistols' >studio sound of several hundred guitar tracks all >playing the same chords. 8-) > >John I remember at the time Jones really hated PIL. It would have had to have been something very different to work. Speculating away, Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:27:24 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V4 #32 >From: MarkBursa@aol.com > >So my comment about having to be there" doesn't imply that you had to be an >ultra-hip London punk at the Vortex. It really refers to being a >disillusioned teenage music fan in a shitty provincial English town, and >getting swept up in a youth movement that blew apart the music establishment >of the day... Exactly, although one didn't have to be English. This disillusioned American stongly prefered UK punk to US. For me, anyway, the importance of the Sex Pistols cannot be over exaggerated. No, they did not invent punk, but they reinvented it, making it something far more important than it every could have been w/out them. PIL was pretty damn important too, at least in my little avant rock world. ;) >From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey McCartney was far >more separated from the rest of the Beatles than they were from one >another after the breakup, as evidenced by the fact that each of other >three appeared on one another's recordings shortly after the breakup. Not to mention the 3 vs. 1 court battle .... >Ringo drummed on Harrison's _All THings Must Pass_ and, I believe, on >parts of _Imagine_, Ringo drumed on Plastic Ono Band (my fav. Lennon). May have been on Imagine too, I don't remember, but at least some of that was Keltner. and Harrison played guitar for both Starr >("Photograph," which he co-wrote) and Lennon (the solo on "Gimme Some >Truth" is his). George was (also?) on the Paul-bashing "How Do You Sleep?" Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #33 ******************************