From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #31 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, January 30 2001 Volume 04 : Number 031 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] [sabotage] CALE BOX track list ["giluz" ] RE: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] OT: A Little Help [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] Re: [idealcopy] OT: A Little Help [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono [MarkBursa@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy]OT: Yoko Ono ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy]OT: Yoko Ono [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] Re: bae-tls ["dMc" ] [idealcopy] OT-a brief introduction [j alberson ] Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] OT: Yoko oh no [j alberson ] [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] RE: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett ["giluz" ] RE: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [Woerner Frank ] [idealcopy] OT Re: Hannett [j alberson ] AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [Woerner Frank ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT-a brief introduction ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [j alberson ] Re: [idealcopy] OT-a brief introduction [j alberson ] OT: RE: [idealcopy] [sabotage] CALE BOX track list; Yoko and Linda [Micha] RE: RE: [idealcopy] [sabotage] CALE BOX track list; Yoko and Linda ["gilu] RE: RE: [idealcopy] [sabotage] CALE BOX track list; Yoko and Linda [Micha] RE: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [fernando ] RE: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [fernando ] Re: [idealcopy] OT-a brief introduction ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [j alberson ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett [fernando ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [j alberson ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player [John Roberts ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett ["Stephen Jackson" ] RE: [idealcopy] OT: Peter Saville ["Ciscon, Ray" ] RE: [idealcopy] OT: Peter Saville [fernando ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:40:57 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] [sabotage] CALE BOX track list Is this the sort of Dream Academy stuff recently released? I had a listen to the Dream Academy CD and it was just as Cale described: One long sustainable drone. I can appreciate the revolutionary ideas but I can't listen to that sort of stuff. giluz > Info on the new Cale set: > > >Disc 1 "SUN BLINDNESS MUSIC" > > > >Sun Blindness Music (42.42) recorded Oct 28 1967 > > > >Summer Heat (11.06) recorded August 1965 > > > >The Second Fortress (10.36) recorded late 67 early 68 > > > > > >Disc 2 "DREAM INTERPRETATION" > > > >Dream Interpretation (20.33) recorded Feb 6 1969 > > > >Ex-Cathedra (5.03) recorded late 67 or early 68 > > > >(Untitled) for piano (12.28) recorded early/mid 60's > > > >Carousel (2.32) recorded late 67 or early 68 > > > >A midnight rain of green wrens at the worlds tallest building (3.19) > >recorded Feb 8 1968 > > > >Hot Scoria (9.21) recorded March 2 1964 0r 1965 > > > > > >Disc 3 "STAINLESS GAMELAN" > > > >Stainless Steel Gamelan (10.30) recorded May 67 with Sterling > > > >At about this time Mozart was dead and Joseph Conrad was sailing the > seven seas learning English (26.27) recorded May 67 with Sterling > > > >Terry's Cha-Cha (8.20) recorded mid 1960's > > > >After the Locust (4.18) recorded circa 1968 > > > >Big Apple Xpress (5.45) recorded early/mid 60's > > This will probably sound more like La Monte Young than the VU. > > Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:50:42 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Yoko OFF TOPIC >Malka has talent you see, Yoko Ono has absolutely no talent whatsoever as >far as I can tell... Heard `walking on thin ice' the other day and was amazed by how good it was. Perhaps she is due a re-evaluation? Howard (no fan of the Beatles or John Lennon) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:26:04 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono I have to add another point here - what makes you say that their relationship wasn't healthy? ///// i read albert goldman's book on lennon a couple of years ago. seemed to be written on the "dead men can't sue" principle but i think certain things are accepted like john & yoko had a big heroin problem 68/69. there was a tribute album to yoko as an attempt to get people to re-evaluate her songs ; didn't work though really. her performances on "sweet toronto" and "one night in new york" didn't do her many favours , and that's probably all most people saw. We're in it for the music, not for the gossip, right? //// me i love gossip. must say linda mccartney is on keyboards and backing vocals in my "worlds worst band". but i'm struggling for a bassist ; any ideas? p giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:52:57 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono > I have to add another point here - what makes you say that their > relationship wasn't healthy? > > ///// i read albert goldman's book on lennon a couple of years > ago. seemed to be written on the "dead men can't sue" principle > but i think certain things are accepted like john & yoko had a > big heroin problem 68/69. You don't need Goldman's book for that - just listen to Lennon's Cold Turkey. Apparently, that's what I heard Goldman's book was really about: so called scandalous revelations that were really quite well known even before the book was written. > We're in it for the music, not > for the gossip, right? > > //// me i love gossip. must say linda mccartney is on keyboards > and backing vocals in my "worlds worst band". but i'm struggling > for a bassist ; any ideas? p I love it too, but I think it shouldn't influence my opinion about the music itself. When this happens, or when things get too personal, like when you're really prying into and speculating about a person's most private affairs, it doesn't really appeal to me. A malicious engineer who was working with McCartney on his early 90's tour recorded a version of Hey Jude only with Linda's backing vocals on it. This was circulated around recording and post production studios and was a real hit - you couldn't believe how that woman couldn't sing. I know that you think you can, but it was even worse than anyone's expectations. Worst bassist: I knew two guys who could have been real candidates for this, but they realised the truth themselves and quit. mmm - that's a tough one: Sting, maybe? Or maybe Doug Yule, the guy that filled in for Cale on the Velvet Underground? I don't know, really. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:38:28 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT: A Little Help "And I feel like Buddy Holly 'cause it's raining in my heart." Does anyone know where those lyrics are from??? Sorry it is so off-topic. Chris. The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:33:48 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: A Little Help In a message dated Tue, 30 Jan 2001 6:49:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk writes: << "And I feel like Buddy Holly 'cause it's raining in my heart." Does anyone know where those lyrics are from??? Sorry it is so off-topic. Chris. ///// it was a terrible novelty single of the 80's. ted chippington did a version. i think it was called "i feel like buddy holly" , god knows the artist.p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:53:56 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono You don't need Goldman's book for that - just listen to Lennon's Cold Turkey. Apparently, that's what I heard Goldman's book was really about: so called scandalous revelations that were really quite well known even before the book was written. /// a lot of people dispute a lot of that book , like yoko and the other beatles (none of whom he interviewed). its a weird book in that its just totally negative throughout , with just the most grudging acknowledgement that the guy may have had some miniscule talent. Worst bassist: I knew two guys who could have been real candidates for this, but they realised the truth themselves and quit. mmm - that's a tough one: Sting, maybe? Or maybe Doug Yule, the guy that filled in for Cale on the Velvet Underground? I don't know, really. ///// well sting is a tempting candidate , especially if you made him stick to his solo stuff and wear a jaguar sweatshirt in honour of his recent advertising work. but is he really bad enough? i'm not sure.p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:59:15 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono Giluz, << Now: this is a real tough one: Does anyone on this list think that Linda McCartney had any talent? >> Yes, she was quite a good photographer. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:01:02 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono Paul, << //// me i love gossip. must say linda mccartney is on keyboards and backing vocals in my "worlds worst band". but i'm struggling for a bassist ; any ideas? p >> Two words: Adam Clayton Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:05:41 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono Giluz, << Sting, maybe?<< For all his myriad faults (well documented here!), Sting is not a bad bass guitar player... >> Or maybe Doug Yule, the guy that filled in for Cale on the Velvet Underground? I don't know, really. >> Why the downer on Dougie? I have no problem with him. Decent player, and he actually sings lead on some of the 3rd album/Loaded stuff as Lou's voice was shot to shit. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:21:02 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy]OT: Yoko Ono > >> Or maybe Doug Yule, the guy that filled in for Cale on the > Velvet Underground? I don't know, really. >> > > Why the downer on Dougie? I have no problem with him. Decent > player, and he > actually sings lead on some of the 3rd album/Loaded stuff as > Lou's voice was > shot to shit. I have to admit that I'm really biased against Yule, first of all because he stepped into Cale's oversized shoes and secondly because he was one of the factors that made the later Velvets go mainstream (relative to what they did previously, of course). And I don't like his singing at all. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:33:23 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT: Yoko Ono Giluz, << I have to admit that I'm really biased against Yule, first of all because he stepped into Cale's oversized shoes and secondly because he was one of the factors that made the later Velvets go mainstream (relative to what they did previously, of course). And I don't like his singing at all. >> I think what they did was a lot more interesting than if they'd made "White Light Part 2" in 1969. Unpredictability was a big part of the package. Then again, nobody noticed, apart from New York's ukltra-trendy art cliques. One thing the Velvets never were was mainstream. Their records only really started selling after punk rediscovered the group as the movement's forefathers. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:57:33 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: bae-tls good photographer used good film > Now: this is a real tough one: Does anyone on this list think that Linda > McCartney had any talent? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:14:05 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: [idealcopy] OT-a brief introduction Hello all. I subscribed to this list just yesterday. My name is Jack Alberson. I'm a 25-year old music artist residing in Memphis Tennessee, where I am working on my first solo release under the moniker The Purity Test. I got into Wire a few years ago when I found "On Returning" whilst preparing myself mentally for a visit to the dentist. The cruelty of dental work! Anyhow, I was hooked, and the next thing I bought was "154" (which is my absolute favorite, and I later found on lp). I now own all the proper releases on cd, with an exception or two. Anyhow, I guess that's all. Hopefully, I'll be getting to know you all soon. Jack __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:13:46 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono << //// me i love gossip. must say linda mccartney is on keyboards and backing vocals in my "worlds worst band". but i'm struggling for a bassist ; any ideas? p >> Two words: Adam Clayton ////// mmmm , tempting. loved those nude photos. still think there's worse than him though. p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:29:02 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Yoko oh no >Heard `walking on thin ice' the other day and was >amazed by how good it >was. Perhaps she is due a re-evaluation? >Howard (no fan of the Beatles or John Lennon) Time for my two cents, I suppose. I listened to a disc by Yoko Ono almost a year ago (it was on Ryko, dunno what it was) and liked about half of it. The truth of Yoko as I see it is this: most artists are either loved or hated, no half-measures. Yoko is no exception. She had some good ideas as well as some bad ideas, and there's not even any use in speculating on the quality of her relationship with John Lennon as none of us were there. That's just me, though. And as Malka goes, I have no problem with her or her music. I find some of it to be pretty adventuresome, which I hold high on the list as qualities go. Now, on to Wire-talk! Jack __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:28:57 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett I didn't realise Martin Hannett had produced Magazine. I bought the "And Here Is The Young Man" CD the other day. Good compilation. So now I'm looking for ideas for my first Magazine purchase. Chris. The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:59:34 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett > I didn't realise Martin Hannett had produced Magazine. I bought the "And > Here Is The Young Man" CD the other day. Good compilation. So now I'm > looking for ideas for my first Magazine purchase. Secondhand Daylight's my favourite, a true masterpiece, though its predecessor, Real Life, is also very good. There's an live album called Play which is nice, but the sound quality's quite bad, so I wouldn't start with that. There's also a 3-CD box set collection, released quite recently, but I didn't buy it yet. Song list looks quite good but I don't know which versions they put there. Who's Martin Hannett? giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:49:29 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett >>Who's Martin Hannett? >>giluz Produced Joy Division, New Order, Durutti Column, Happy Mondays, Magazine, U2. He was one of the original founders of Factory Records. Died a few years ago. Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:59:10 +0100 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett > -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: giluz [mailto:giluz@nettalk.com] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. Januar 2001 16:00 > An: IdealCopy; Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk > Betreff: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett > > Who's Martin Hannett? Producer of several factory acts. Joy Division comes to mind here ... Musician ( keyboarder ??? ) in Pauline Murray's ( not "Penetration" in this case ) band. Frank from Bavaria ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:04:54 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: [idealcopy] OT Re: Hannett Refresh my memory, which U2 release did he produce? Was it "Boy" (always saw a Joy Division connection with that record)? Jack >Produced Joy Division, New Order, Durutti Column, >Happy Mondays, >Magazine, >U2. He was one of the original founders of Factory >Records. Died a few >years ago. >Chris. __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:03:48 +0100 From: Woerner Frank Subject: AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett > -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk [mailto:Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. Januar 2001 15:49 > An: giluz > Cc: IdealCopy > Betreff: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett > > > >>Who's Martin Hannett? > > >>giluz > > Produced Joy Division, New Order, Durutti Column, Happy > Mondays, Magazine, > U2. He was one of the original founders of Factory Records. Died a few > years ago. ;-(( !! That shows how old we are ... I read some threads of the last weeks today and there were several musicians of 80ies fame mentioned who "died already". This list often inspires me to listen to the "spoken about" records when I suddenly realize how old this music is. ...sigh... Frank from Bavaria ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:22:31 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett Chris, << I didn't realise Martin Hannett had produced Magazine. I bought the "And Here Is The Young Man" CD the other day. Good compilation. So now I'm looking for ideas for my first Magazine purchase. >> Secondhand Daylight. A perfect album. Then buy Correct Use of Soap, which is 99.99% in comparison. Just doesn't flow so well, but so close it doesn't matter. The new box set covers all the other bases, though you really should have Real Life as well...... Avoid: Magic Murder and the Weather. Dull, turgid and with rotten production by the coke-addled Mancunian production "genius". Hannett's role with Magazine is extraordinary. he produced CUOS (one of the few good non-Joy Division jobs he ever did. "Flight" by A Certain Ratio is the other). He also did MM&TW, which sounds like it was recorded though a small transistor radio at the bottom of a lift shaft. Hannett completely lost the plot around the end of 1980...the same dead production ruined New Order's Movement. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:23:59 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono Paul, thudthudthudthudthudthudthudthud..... Surely he's yer man on style alone! Mark << ////// mmmm , tempting. loved those nude photos. still think there's worse than him though. p >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:28:48 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-a brief introduction So, did Heterodyne go belly-up? If so, a shame ... Dan, down (in more ways than one, alas) in Little Rock >Hello all. > >I subscribed to this list just yesterday. My name is >Jack Alberson. I'm a 25-year old music artist >residing in Memphis Tennessee, where I am working on >my first solo release under the moniker The Purity >Test. > >I got into Wire a few years ago when I found "On >Returning" whilst preparing myself mentally for a >visit to the dentist. The cruelty of dental work! >Anyhow, I was hooked, and the next thing I bought was >"154" (which is my absolute favorite, and I later >found on lp). I now own all the proper releases on >cd, with an exception or two. > >Anyhow, I guess that's all. Hopefully, I'll be >getting to know you all soon. > >Jack > >__________________________________________________ >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 15:27:13 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT Re: Hannett Here is a link to the linear notes. http://worldinmotion.net/JoyDivision/Discography/Compilations/HereIsTheYoun gMan.htm The U2 track on the comp. is 11 O'Clock Tick Tock. And here is a link to a load of information. http://freespace.virgin.net/anna.b/hannett/frame.htm Thanks for the Magazine suggestions. I'll let you know what I get. Chris. j alberson on 30/01/2001 15:04:54 To: idealcopy@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/IT/MEDAS) Subject: [idealcopy] OT Re: Hannett Refresh my memory, which U2 release did he produce? Was it "Boy" (always saw a Joy Division connection with that record)? Jack >Produced Joy Division, New Order, Durutti Column, >Happy Mondays, >Magazine, >U2. He was one of the original founders of Factory >Records. Died a few >years ago. >Chris. __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:46:59 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono thudthudthudthudthudthudthudthud..... Surely he's yer man on style alone! Mark ////// mr clayton doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the box really. and his playing never seems to progress very far. but i can never really hate U2 ; they're prety bland but seem like nice people and some of the singles were ok. another guy in the "i've been playing for years but really not got that far" category is mr steve severin , wonder what those solo albums are like? (not really). cutting back to the hannett thread , his u2 production was the first single 11 o'clock tick tock".p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:06:10 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player > ////// mr clayton doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the box > really. and his playing never seems to progress very far. but i > can never really hate U2 ; they're prety bland but seem like nice > people and some of the singles were ok. They did release some decent stuff every now and then (though it doesn't sound very good as the years progress - happened to have Under a Blood Red Sky on in a pub not long ago and it really really sucks. I really liked it once), but I always thought of them as really horrible ego-trippers who got that stupid notion that if they're selling millions of records they must be the best rock group on the planet. As for Mr. Clayton - he's too mediocre to be thought of as worst bass player. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:05:47 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett Hmm...I dunno...I half-agree with this statement, only because I am partial to a few of these tracks in regard to their production. Specifically "Truth" and "I.C.B."...of course, that's just me. Definitely not lurking today! Jack > Hannett completely lost the plot around the end of > 1980...the same dead > production ruined New Order's Movement. > > Mark __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:09:10 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-a brief introduction Oh my goodness! Someone here knows something about my sordid musical past. Trust me, you'll like what I'm doing now way more, Dan. Heterodyne (who used to cover "Outdoor Miner"--that should put things in some degree of relation to this list!)just got weird (after Columbia Records knocked on our door). I think it's practically over. I left in May of last year. For you (and anyone else interested) here's a URL to my homepage: http://www.geocities.com/jackalberson Regards, Jack - --- dan bailey wrote: > So, did Heterodyne go belly-up? If so, a shame ... > > Dan, down (in more ways than one, alas) in Little > Rock > > __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:09:21 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett Frank, << Musician ( keyboarder ??? ) in Pauline Murray's ( not "Penetration" in this case ) band. >> The Invisible Girls. not strictly Pauline's band - though they did record an album. The Invisible Girls were Hannett and his muso chums, who backed all kinds of local bands/artistes (notably John Cooper Clarke). Buzzcocks drummer John Maher was also involved. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:22:47 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player Regarding U2, I think in all fairness that Adam Clayton never progresses much as a bassist because there wouldn't be any room for him in the mix. Think about it, (those of you who actually like them, as I do) if Clayton really did anything in the songs they would sound busy and cluttered. Part of this is due to the way The Edge plays guitar, and part of it is (in most cases) the solid but simple drumming of Larry Mullen Jr. As a rhythm section, they don't do much. Bono's got a big head. I know. I still like 'em, though. Jack P.S. My vote for worst bass player would most definitely be Sid Vicious. I mean, come on! Half the time he wasn't even playing. Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:30:25 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: OT: RE: [idealcopy] [sabotage] CALE BOX track list; Yoko and Linda At 11:40 AM 1/30/2001 +0200, you wrote: >Is this the sort of Dream Academy stuff recently released? I had a listen to >the Dream Academy CD and it was just as Cale described: One long sustainable >drone. I can appreciate the revolutionary ideas but I can't listen to that >sort of stuff. > >giluz My guess is yes, but no one will know until it's released. I will try to remember to post a short note here when it's out. While I'll never know for sure, I suspect that I like Lennon's solo albums more than I would have liked 70s Beatle albums. No one had a lower opinion of Linda's musical talent than Linda ... Paul insisted she be in the band. She seems to have made him very happy, so tough luck to those who couldn't let go. It was just a pop band. Like John said, you could just make a tape of the solo albums, switching every other track. As the collaboration had ended a couple of years before the band did, that's probably about right. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:56:22 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: RE: [idealcopy] [sabotage] CALE BOX track list; Yoko and Linda > No one had a lower opinion of Linda's musical talent than Linda ... Paul > insisted she be in the band. She seems to have made him very happy, so > tough luck to those who couldn't let go. She could've played tambourine, then. Or even just keyboards, but why did she have to sing? giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:56:15 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: RE: RE: [idealcopy] [sabotage] CALE BOX track list; Yoko and Linda >She could've played tambourine, then. Or even just keyboards, but why did >she have to sing? > >giluz Good point. Then again, for me nothing could help solo Paul albums. ;) Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:59:31 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player P.S. My vote for worst bass player would most definitely be Sid Vicious. I mean, come on! Half the time he wasn't even playing. //// well there's different kinds of bad 1. inept 2. tedious 3. pretentious 4. combinations of the above now sid may not have been a virtuoso muso but life sure was never dull with him around. so he is not remotely a candidate for this band i'm afraid.p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:23:05 -0800 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett Yeah, but compare those tracks to the live versions, or even the Peel versions... and they are superior... the best thing to make a better movement, is to gather good live versions of the tracks, in my opinion. The only exception is Doubts Even Here, where it is still a great Hannett production. - -fernando At 08:05 AM 1/30/01 -0800, j alberson wrote: >Hmm...I dunno...I half-agree with this statement, only >because I am partial to a few of these tracks in >regard to their production. Specifically "Truth" and >"I.C.B."...of course, that's just me. > >Definitely not lurking today! > >Jack > > > Hannett completely lost the plot around the end of > > 1980...the same dead > > production ruined New Order's Movement. > > > > Mark > > >__________________________________________________ >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:25:09 -0800 From: fernando Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett Actually, he was not a founder of Factory... Tony Wilson, Alan Erasmus and Rob Gretton were more at the founder part than Martin. Martin, like Peter Saville, were the house producer and designer (respectively). Given his low royalties, Martin ended up taking Factory to the courts... - -fernando At 02:49 PM 1/30/01 +0000, Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk wrote: > >>Who's Martin Hannett? > > >>giluz > >Produced Joy Division, New Order, Durutti Column, Happy Mondays, Magazine, >U2. He was one of the original founders of Factory Records. Died a few >years ago. > >Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:19:54 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT-a brief introduction Damn ... never heard that cover of Outdoor Miner, though I think I recall a rendition of possibly my favorite Joy Division song ever, Atmosphere, not to mention at least a half-set of old Cure (& hey, I'm highly partial to old Cure) songs a couple of Halloweens ago at Juanita's. Dan >Oh my goodness! Someone here knows something about my >sordid musical past. > >Trust me, you'll like what I'm doing now way more, >Dan. >Heterodyne (who used to cover "Outdoor Miner"--that >should put things in some degree of relation to this >list!)just got weird (after Columbia Records knocked >on our door). I think it's practically over. I left >in May of last year. > >For you (and anyone else interested) here's a URL to >my homepage: > >http://www.geocities.com/jackalberson > >Regards, >Jack > > >--- dan bailey wrote: >> So, did Heterodyne go belly-up? If so, a shame ... >> >> Dan, down (in more ways than one, alas) in Little >> Rock >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:48:21 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player > P.S. My vote for worst bass player would most > definitely be Sid Vicious. I mean, come on! Half the > time he wasn't even playing. Sex Pistols are really underestimated as musicians, due to the image built by McLaren. I'm not a great SP fan, but Don't Mind the Bollocks certainly rocks, and you can't get that with people that lack talent. Maybe Vicious didn't know how to play but he sounded good in the band he was in. If we're going to give grades to people that lack technical expertise or music theory knowledge, then probably most of the people much adored by list members would claim first place, including Wire members. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:43:09 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett Fernando << Yeah, but compare those tracks to the live versions, or even the Peel versions... and they are superior... the best thing to make a better movement, is to gather good live versions of the tracks, in my opinion. The only exception is Doubts Even Here, where it is still a great Hannett production.>> I agree totally. Movement was one of the most disappointing albums for me, as I knew the songs so well, having seen New Order many times during their early days. Doubts Even here was hardly ever played live - only a handful of times. Hooky on vocals, and he didn't like singing it....though they almost always played Dreams Never End, his other vocal. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:48:58 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett Okay, granted...I'll give you that. The Peel Session they did around that time is incredible. And I've heard some old live New Order, though it's rather touch and go on the vocals. But I'm fussy like that. Jack > Yeah, but compare those tracks to the live versions, > or even the Peel > versions... and they are superior... the best thing > to make a better > movement, is to gather good live versions of the > tracks, in my opinion. The > only exception is Doubts Even Here, where it is > still a great Hannett > production. __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:51:19 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player Giluz, << Maybe Vicious didn't know how to play but he sounded good in the band he was in. >> Sid doesn't play on any track on Never Mind the Bollocks. Some tracks were recorded when Glen Matlock was still in the band. Steve Jones plays bass on those written after Matlock left. Your only chance to hear Sid's bass "playing" is on bootlegs, where he's usually turned way down. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:50:32 -0800 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett Very true on Doubts Even Here been played scantly (though I did not catch New Order then, plenty of tapes around)... the last time it was played (if memory serves) was in Germany, released on a high quality bootleg (3-Disc + Western Works demo cassette) called Dreams Never End. Even then, the eerie atmosphere that Hannett did so well with the studio track is not achieved live... so good thing that they stopped it. Mind you, I think that Hannett was not always right... I also side with the Joy Division production of Auto-Suggestion, rather than the recorded version. But then, this all can be forgotten when you compare Atmosphere as recorded for Picadilly Radio (or the Transmission sessions), and then see the majestic way that it was recorded in the studio... sheer brilliance in bringing the elements of the song to a crisp, clear level... then putting the right amount of space around them. All in all... Hannett did good... and Movement was, I guess, necessary for the band to finally graduate with the "physics" of self-production. BTW, Does the Magazine box set include the alternate versions of THE CORRECT USE OF SOAP, that was released in Canada on the title THE ALTERNATE USE OF SOAP? Though people laud the other albums, this has been my fave -- as a bit of a distant Magazine fan. - -fernando At 12:43 PM 1/30/01 -0500, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >Fernando > ><< Yeah, but compare those tracks to the live versions, or even the Peel > versions... and they are superior... the best thing to make a better > movement, is to gather good live versions of the tracks, in my opinion. The > only exception is Doubts Even Here, where it is still a great Hannett > production.>> > >I agree totally. Movement was one of the most disappointing albums for me, as >I knew the songs so well, having seen New Order many times during their early >days. > >Doubts Even here was hardly ever played live - only a handful of times. Hooky >on vocals, and he didn't like singing it....though they almost always played >Dreams Never End, his other vocal. > >Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:53:19 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player Paul, << 1. inept 2. tedious 3. pretentious 4. combinations of the above >> Derek Smalls?? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:17:53 -0800 (PST) From: j alberson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player Don't I feel daft! And I even knew that! If anybody sees any marbles about, they're probably mine. Jack > Sid doesn't play on any track on Never Mind the > Bollocks. Some tracks were > recorded when Glen Matlock was still in the band. > Steve Jones plays bass on > those written after Matlock left. __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:58:39 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: worst bass player Witness his playing on the DOA film. Or not. And the older I get the more I think wearing swatiska t shirts was a little bit stupid... John __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:05:49 -0000 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yoko Ono >another guy in the "i've been playing for years but really not got that far" category is mr steve severin , wonder what those solo albums are like? (not really). Adam Clayton is one of the few musicians who seems to have got worse as he's gone on. Actually, I think he's just a lazy bleeder.... (Some of the bass on October's alright....) > >cutting back to the hannett thread , his u2 production was the first single 11 o'clock tick tock".p I stand corrected... Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:00:16 -0000 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Hannett Giluz wrote: >Secondhand Daylight's my favourite, a true masterpiece Agreed. A great record. , though its >predecessor, Real Life, is also very good. There's an live album called Play >which is nice, but the sound quality's quite bad, so I wouldn't start with >that. Play is a horrible live album IMO and not a good way into Magazine...There's a compilation accompanying the boxset, but i forget what it's called..... There's also a 3-CD box set collection, released quite recently, but I >didn't buy it yet. Song list looks quite good but I don't know which >versions they put there. Pretty good set... Elsewhere: Martin Hannett produced Correct Use of Soap (and M,M and the Weather IIRC), I don't think he was ever involved with U2.... Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. - -----Original Message----- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:26:22 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Peter Saville Fernando wrote: Actually, he was not a founder of Factory... Tony Wilson, Alan Erasmus and Rob Gretton were more at the founder part than Martin. Martin, like Peter Saville, were the house producer and designer (respectively). Given his low royalties, Martin ended up taking Factory to the courts... ============== I always liked Peter Saville's design work from the early 80's. Does anybody have any idea what he's up to these days? Thanks, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:39:37 -0800 From: fernando Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Peter Saville He was in Los Angeles for a bit working for someone else... I think that 5 years... this is where the ideas for the Republic and Joy Division tribute album (Means to an End) came from. There was a good interview in a mag in the mid 80s (called "eye"? -- geez, age is a wonderful thing...). He is back in London and heads up a firm... did the Joy Division box set and Peel cover (for the re-issue) I think -- actually done by a person called Martin Open working for Peter. Forget the name of the new company... somehow thinking that it is Ideas... oh dear. Perhaps others can help... - -fernando At 01:26 PM 1/30/01 -0600, Ciscon, Ray wrote: >Fernando wrote: >Actually, he was not a founder of Factory... Tony Wilson, Alan Erasmus and >Rob Gretton were more at the founder part than Martin. Martin, like Peter >Saville, were the house producer and designer (respectively). Given his low >royalties, Martin ended up taking Factory to the courts... >============== >I always liked Peter Saville's design work from the early 80's. Does anybody >have any idea what he's up to these days? > >Thanks, > >Ray ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #31 ******************************