From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #15 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, January 15 2001 Volume 04 : Number 015 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts and fave 2K albums [jasonmb@calwe] RE: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts and fave 2K albums ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] Silo [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] Immersed in video [Wireviews ] Re: [idealcopy] Dating the Wires [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Dating the Wires [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] [idealcopy] Dating the Wires [Wireviews ] RE: [idealcopy] Dating the Wires ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] The First Letter ["Syarzhuk Kazachenka" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires [MarkBursa@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires ["giluz" ] RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires ["giluz" ] FW: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: packaging-going off and on topic [Paul Pietromonaco <] [OT] Early CD quality issues (was Re: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts and fave 2K albums) [Paul Pietr] RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires [fernando ] [idealcopy] APB for Wire stuff! [Rick Hindman ] RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires [eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang)] An 80's Wire fan (was RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires) [Paul Pietrom] Re: An 80's Wire fan (was RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires) [MarkBurs] [idealcopy] Re: Alternative Mancunians [Tim Robinson Seems like Manscape get knocked about quite a bit but >I really like it! I've only heard the CD version so >far, but the only cuts I sometimes omit are 'Small >Black Reptile','Sixth Sense' and 'Children of >Groceries'. Those are the same songs I skip, but I like the rest a lot. I still don't understand why that album's such a whipping boy, I think The Drill deserves far more criticism than Manscape. >I have to say I've not heard 'First >Letter' yet...should I? Yes! I disagree with Graeme on this. It's not a perfect album, but I love it, and wish Wir had gone on to do more. My favorites: Take It, So and Slow, No Cows on the Ice, It Continues, Tailor Made, A Big Glue Canal, and Footsi-Footsi. The "Vien" single is also worth getting. - -- Jason Borchers jasonmb@calweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:29:15 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts and fave 2K albums My first CD: I'm not sure but I think it was the Pixies' Bossanova (which sounded fine but was a bit disapointing after the splendour of Doolitle). I think my 2nd one was an old Fall album (pre-Brix) - I remember a friend of mine taking the piss and saying what a waste of money it is to get the Fall on CD, because back then, when people still used to buy mostly vinyl, you only bought CD's whose sound quality was supposed to justify the purchase. First Wire CD - 154, which was also my first Wire vinyl. A friend of mine got one and I listened to the bonuses (I wasn't even aware of the existence of the EP on the original release) and had to get my own copy. Favourite y2k albums (in no particular order): Mr. Bungle - California Trans Am - Red Line Echoboy - vol 2 Fall - Unutterable Wire - third day + It's All In The Brochure + 12 times you 7" (each release better then the last) muslimgauze vs. bass communion Silo - Instar Frigg - Brecht Holger hiller Swim Team - how come no one put this on their list? Turing Machine - a new machine for living Add N To X / Add Insult To Injury Run Lola Run - Original Motion Picture Soundtrack cheers giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 04:57:46 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Dating the Wires " Maybe it would sound completely different in 10 years time or so. At the moment, most of Wire's 80's stuff sounds much more dated than their 70's releases. " I don't really agree with this. To me, the EMI releases sound like a product of their time, the possible exception being *some* of the tracks off of 154. The thing is, the '70s sound, at least the late-'70s sound is kind of contemporary right now, so it this material sounds right. I imagine if the '80s revival ever happens (God help us) then some of Wire's Mute records will sound more contemporary. Having said that, I don't think First Letter has really dated at all. Neither has Drill. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 05:04:16 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Silo " The new Silo album is supposed to be out - it's worth it even if it's half as good as Instar. " I got this through the other day and a review will be up for the next Wireviews update. Suffice to say it's not half as good as Instar -- it's much, much better!! Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 05:06:30 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Immersed in video "A single for them is just one of the formats through which you release music, and not the standard hit-maker thing. I think you could say the same about the videos." I think that's fair to say, along with the fairly obvious fact that Immersion is contiuing the path to becoming an integrated and seemless a/v project. I imagine it will get the point (when the technology is there and standard) where the piece will first be presented as audio and video, rather than separate entities. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:39:12 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dating the Wires Craig, << I don't really agree with this. To me, the EMI releases sound like a product of their time, the possible exception being *some* of the tracks off of 154. The thing is, the '70s sound, at least the late-'70s sound is kind of contemporary right now, so it this material sounds right.<< I think some of the 80s stuff has dated badly. Anything with 80s digital synth sounds basically, and especially the more keyboard-based Manscape tracks. I think Wire's obsession with digitising/sequencing at the time is the cause of the problem. Whereas on the EMI stuff, Mike Thorne's synth use was subtle - and crucially avoided obvious "synth" noises. I don't think 154 has aged at all in 21 years. It still sounds as contemporary as any record made in the intervening period. >>I imagine if the '80s revival ever happens (God help us) then some of Wire's Mute records will sound more contemporary.<< It's well under way, make no mistake! >>Having said that, I don't think First Letter has really dated at all. Neither has Drill. >> First Letter certainly sounds "of its time", though it's more subtle than Manscape. Drill is probably my least favourite Wire album. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:24:30 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dating the Wires I think Wire's obsession with digitising/sequencing at the time is the cause of the problem. Whereas on the EMI stuff, Mike Thorne's synth use was subtle - and crucially avoided obvious "synth" noises. I don't think 154 has aged at all in 21 years. It still sounds as contemporary as any record made in the intervening period. ///// agreed completely. funny how we endlessly debate the 80's production but mike thornes work is accepted as exactly right for the material. >>I imagine if the '80s revival ever happens (God help us) then some of Wire's Mute records will sound more contemporary.<< It's well under way, make no mistake! /// too true. however , the tunnel vision of tv producers tends to mean 80's = human league + duran duran >>Having said that, I don't think First Letter has really dated at all. Neither has Drill. >> First Letter certainly sounds "of its time", though it's more subtle than Manscape. //// i still tihnk first letter works really well. maybe it alienated some "beat combo" fans , but i think it still worked. whereas manscape , in places i'm not so sure.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:36:23 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Dating the Wires - --- MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > I think some of the 80s stuff has dated badly. > I think Wire's obsession with > digitising/sequencing at the time is > the cause of the problem. Whereas on the > EMI stuff, Mike Thorne's synth use > was subtle - and crucially avoided > obvious "synth" noises. I don't think 154 > has aged at all in 21 years. It still sounds as > contemporary as any record > made in the intervening period. My argument is still because that's down to curernt trends. To me, 154 is very much along the lines of other similar released from the late '70s. Sure, 154 of one of my favourites, but just because Thorne's sequencers were subtle, that doesn't mean the other noises were any less 'obvious' compared with others of the time. Also, the 'band' concept has never really gone away, but the electronic band idea appears in fits and starts outside of 'dance'. Pink Flag is even more guitly. Although it certainly didn't make me popular, I still stand by my review that it's basically a punk album with shorter songs, maybe unlike the rest of '77, but certainly very obviously related: a bastard child, if you like. Also, much of the '80s stuff used various (badly done) samples, so I'm not sure what obvious noises you mean - -- perhaps the drums? If so, then I would say Wire's current incarnation could put them in the '60s! (Heh heh -- Devil's Advocate, or what?!?!) :) Overall then, I reckon most of Wire's stuff sounds like it was made in its time -- perhaps in some cases (First Letter, Chairs Missing) they were ahead of the game, but that's all. However, some of the solo records, especially Bruce's later stuff, Immersion, some of Dome and some of Hox/Ocsid are more timeless to my ears. - --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > //// i still tihnk first letter works really well. > maybe it alienated some "beat combo" fans , > but i think it still worked. whereas manscape , > in places i'm not so sure.p First Letter, in my opinion, should be the best Wir(e) album, but it loses this accolade due to really, really bad production. All the noises that should be loud have been stiffled (listen to 'A Bargain...' live for how the vocals *should* sound). Everything was smoothed-out too much on that release. I agree with previous comments that it perhaps isn't really themed and doesn't hang together that well, but then exactly the same argument of diversity of content can be levelled at 154. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:14:44 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Dating the Wires > Pink Flag is even more guitly. Although it certainly > didn't make me popular, I still stand by my review > that it's basically a punk album with shorter songs, > maybe unlike the rest of '77, but certainly very > obviously related: a bastard child, if you like. Absolutely. It is a punk record, which has lots of other things beside punk inside it. Just as the Fall's early efforts were also punk records, even though they certainly weren't strictly punk. I'm not saying that everything that went out during this period was punk (I once heard that even Dire Straits were referred to as a punk band by record executives, just because they were a new band from Newcastle), but the fact that Wire toyed around with the punk idea instead of being part of a 'movement' doesn't make their records less punk (well, it does a bit, but that doesn't completely eliminate the music's 'punkness'). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:39:03 -0500 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] The First Letter >I have to say I've not heard 'First Letter' yet...should I? Absolutely yes. I rate it way higher than Manscape. It's a lot more pleasant listening and some tracks really rock! My favorites (as of now, could change the next moment) would probably be "Footsie" and "No Cows on Ice" Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:11:27 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dating the Wires Craig, >>but just because Thorne's sequencers were subtle, that doesn't mean the other noises were any less 'obvious' compared with others of the time.<< Disagree. Compare 154 with Wire's nearest "rivals" Magazine, a band I love nearly as much as our heroes. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, with Magazine - juyst as well, as a lot of Dave Formula's synth work would not have been out of place on an ELP album. You had to be bloody careful to not make early synths sound like prog rock or Gary Numan. Mike Thorne was one of the people at the time who knew how. (the alternative approach was the Allen Ravenstine method, but that's a different story!) >>Also, much of the '80s stuff used various (badly done) samples, so I'm not sure what obvious noises you mean - -- perhaps the drums?<< Drums at times, but mainly the synths on Manscape. All preset/programmed late 80s, with even a few synth-pop cliches creeping in - check out Who has nine? on Coatings as an example. >>However, some of the solo records, especially Bruce's later stuff, Immersion, some of Dome and some of Hox/Ocsid are more timeless to my ears.<< It's difficult to judge that stuff (with the exception of Dome) as it's still too new. I can't imagine Immersion being made in the '70s. And I can't think of anything as organically experimental as Dome being made today, given the digital nature of modern recording. << I agree with previous comments that it perhaps isn't really themed and doesn't hang together that well, but then exactly the same argument of diversity of content can be levelled at 154. >> I find it very hard to think of a record that is better sequenced than 154. It hangs together immaculately, and sounds to these ears like a fully conceived whole. Wheras First Letter is a band reinventing itself up a cul-de-sac. I saw the Wir tour at that time and positions had definitely shifted. Not just the lack of Robert - Graham was in charge, and the balance was missing. Not that I dislike the album....Ticking Mouth is excellent, and of course contains a Bruce vocal! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:47:31 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires - --- MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Drums at times, but mainly the synths > on Manscape. All preset/programmed late > 80s, with even a few synth-pop cliches > creeping in - check out Who has nine? > on Coatings as an example. Okay, I'm being contentious now, but I really find it amazing how many people give the '80s stick for the preset noises and more so just for the 'electronic' thing overall. Almost nobody thinks of drums/bass/electric guitars as 'cliche' or 'obvious' - -- I wonder why that is? Cliched though they may be, I often find the bizarre noises the likes of Depeche Mode used more interesting than what I consider to be 'default band' noise ie: three guitarists and a drummer. (Hence why I tend to prefer a lot of Wire's later stuff, even if the production does suck. of course, 154 is probably the exception due to Thorne's input and the odd guitar effects they had.) > It's difficult to judge that stuff (with the > exception of Dome) as it's still > too new. I can't imagine Immersion being > made in the '70s. Maybe, maybe not. Immersion is very organic and a lot of the noises are of electronic origin, but many of the effects are probably achievable with tape loops. I find some of Immersion quite similar to Dome at times... > And I can't think of anything as > organically experimental as Dome > being made today, given the > digital nature of modern recording. I guess that's down to method, but you only have to venture as far as Swim to find acts of an organically experimental nature, such as Symptoms. > I find it very hard to think of a record that is > better sequenced than 154. > It hangs together immaculately, and sounds > to these ears like a fully conceived whole. Heh! Then we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. To me, 154 sounds like a compilation with ideas flying off in all directions. Bell is a Cup is probably Wire's most whole records, or maybe Drill. 154 is too dispirate. > Wheras First Letter is a band reinventing itself > up a cul-de-sac. I saw the Wir tour at that > time and positions had definitely > shifted. Not just the lack of Robert - Graham > was in charge, and the balance was missing. I've only ever seen the Wir videos and, yes, they're pretty bad, but I don't think they were really taking things that seriously then -- the break was immanent. Musically, I still think Wir was pretty good, although I agree about the lack of balance and as I've said, the production was awful. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:11:48 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires Craig, << Okay, I'm being contentious now, but I really find it amazing how many people give the '80s stick for the preset noises and more so just for the 'electronic' thing overall. I make a definite distinction between electronics and 'presets'. By the latter half of the '80s, most keyboards were digital, not analogue, and ran off banks of preset sounds. Early synths are a real handful to get a decent sound out of - then suddenly you press a couple of buttons and - hey presto! Instant Kraftwerk. I think Manscape falls into that trap (to some extent - not nearly as bad as a lot of other bands). >>Almost nobody thinks of drums/bass/electric guitars as 'cliche' or 'obvious' -- I wonder why that is? >> >>Cliched though they may be, I often find the bizarre noises the likes of Depeche Mode used more interesting than what I consider to be 'default band' noise ie: three guitarists and a drummer.<< While I don't like DM, their roots are in analogue synthesizers. They predate presets by some distance. Vince Clarke's legacy was a way of operating that was almost entirely analogue, and I think Martin Gore carried on ini the same way. Vince Clarke is about as resolutely luddite as any musician you'll ever come across. Most of Ersaure's stuff is played on "ancient" 70s and 80s gear... >>Heh! Then we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. To me, 154 sounds like a compilation with ideas flying off in all directions. << I'm guessing you came to Wire via the '80s, then the early stuff? A lot of people who took that route seem to have that take on the EMI stuff... >>Bell is a Cup is probably Wire's most whole records, or maybe Drill. 154 is too dispirate.<< ABIAC is my favourtite "phase 2" Wire album by a long distance. Drill is the one I could live without. >>I've only ever seen the Wir videos and, yes, they're pretty bad, but I don't think they were really taking things that seriously then -- the break was immanent. << Not sure about that....the gig I saw (Mean Fiddler) was a lot better than the Kilburn one that Kevin videoed. They were certainly trying something very different, and I believe they were serious about it. But as I said, the balance between Colin and Graham had shifted too far in Mr Lewis' direction....note that Graham was stage centre during that tour. Mark In the context of Oasis, or Coldplay, those instruments are extremely cliched. In the context of Wire, bass, guitar and drums has never sounded cliched. Especially now. Much of the distinctiveness of Wire's sound stems from the fact they are a "conventional" band....the strength of the current reunion shows they recognise this as a strength, and play to it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:42:29 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires > > It's difficult to judge that stuff (with the > > exception of Dome) as it's still > > too new. I can't imagine Immersion being > > made in the '70s. > > Maybe, maybe not. Immersion is very organic and a lot > of the noises are of electronic origin, but many of > the effects are probably achievable with tape loops. I > find some of Immersion quite similar to Dome at > times... Immersion always reminded me of the kind of audio loops work done in the 70's by the likes of Fripp/Eno, especially all the work that was done with Frippetronics. > > > And I can't think of anything as > > organically experimental as Dome > > being made today, given the > > digital nature of modern recording. > > I guess that's down to method, but you only have to > venture as far as Swim to find acts of an organically > experimental nature, such as Symptoms. I completely agree. What is organically experimental? People give technology too much credit when electronic music's concerned, and forget that the musical basis was already done via analogue means by lots of people in the 70's. Digital technology just made it so easy that a child could do it. You don't have to cut and paste tapes anymore to manipulate the audio. And that's what let musicians take the basic analogue ideas and expand them to what we now know as electronic music. It also gave musicians tools they could only dream of in the analogue days. Making digital music is a far more intuitive experience than the old linear way of work, in that way making it easier for the musician to experiment. In the analogue way of work, you usually had to know in advance the structure of the piece you're working on, or at least you had to know the structure of each new layer you add to the piece (unless you were jamming with a band, which is a completely different style of music). With digital music you can change your mind every time you want and restructure the whole piece according to your needs wherever and whenever you want. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:58:31 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires > >>Heh! Then we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. > To me, 154 sounds like a compilation with ideas flying > off in all directions. << > > I'm guessing you came to Wire via the '80s, then the early stuff? > A lot of > people who took that route seem to have that take on the EMI stuff... That's a really weird thing and I always wondered about that. I'm the kind of in-between guy that got to know the early Wire in the 80's, before they reformed. As much as I liked Ideal Copy, Bell Is A Cup and IBTABA I never thought of them as getting even close to the quality of the early stuff. I liked the fact that Wire were reinventing themselves - I just wasn't so keen on the way they did it. I'm really interested in hearing what people's reactions were to the 80's stuff as their introduction to Wire and what their reactions were later when they heard the early stuff. Anyone care to comment? giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:04:51 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: FW: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires I didn't get to the main point in my last mail (carried away, sorry) - so the intuitive possibilities opened by digital music making just made the whole concept more organic, i.e. more like the way the human mind works than with the old analogue method. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:48:56 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: packaging-going off and on topic >however , there aren't many of the mute sleeves i could get excited about. >snakedrill , ABIAC, kidney bingos are all nice. but a lot of the others are >pretty uninspired ; ideal copy , silk skin paws , manscape , ahead to name >but 4. shame because most of the solo releases were well-packaged and yet the >later wire releases i felt could have been realised better. wonder whose idea >they all were? You knew that they *all* were Graham's ideas, right? Usually under the psuedonym of Swen... (This doesn't count the post Manscape/Drill stuff like The A List and Behind The Curtain - I think Jon Wozencroft (sp?) worked on those. I think Wir's The First Letter may have been Jon as well - I'd have to look up my copy to make sure.) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:00:41 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: [OT] Early CD quality issues (was Re: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts and fave 2K albums) >> First thing I heard on Cd was The Stranglers >> collection & I remember being very unimpressed with >> the sound! > >The earliest CD's seemed to be rather hit or miss in >terms of quality. I remember about a year into my >'digital conversion' picking up a CD of "Yessongs" >which was a favorite LP of mine and was horrified at >how awful the sound was on it! > > This was indeed true. But, not quite for the reasons most people think. A lot of people placed blame on the A-to-D converters in use at the time, but the real reason, as revealed in my audio engineering Mix magazine, was the record labels' reluctance to allow CDs to be mastered from the original source elements - preferring instead to master CDs from backup safety copies. They would hold the master tapes for record reissues only - and send their safety backups to the CD mastering studio. This was especially the case in America. Anything released in the UK on Virgin or EMI generally sounded better than the corresponding US editions. I remember picking up the Geffen CD of Peter Gabriel's "3rd" album - and noticing that the hiss levels were greater than the original vinyl. I was prepared to leave it at that, when I got a copy of the CD from the UK, on Virgin's label - and it sounded better than the vinyl (or at least in the same ballpark). Virgin was one of the first labels to "get" CD - hence the reason they were almost sued out of existence by Warner, Columbia and Tower Records. But, that's a bed time story for another e-mail. (^_^) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:09:27 -0800 From: fernando Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires Well, although my first introduction to Wire was through Pink Flag (in 1980), I did not catch up to Wire until the time of Ideal Copy. I am not sure how this sits with the others, but I have played Bell Is A Cup the most, closely followed by 154. It is likely that I do not listen to music as most people, as I mostly focus on bass and drums and atmosphere (e.g., those two albums, PiL's Second Edition, Unknown Pleasures and Closer) -- but I find these two albums very similar in feel and exploration of ideas. "Follow the Locust", my fave track from the album, could easily fit in power and atmosphere within 154. The pop of "Kidney Bingos" with the pop of "Map Ref"... etc. So, I am not sure that I see a distance between the first trilogy and the 80s stuff... it comes to how they feel... The First Letter is in a similar vein. To me, the real trilogy of albums is 154, Bell Is A Cup and The First Letter. To me, they demonstrate the biggest range of ideas within an album... Pink Flag, Chairs Missing and Ideal Copy being, besides fantastic albums, more at the footing leading to 154 and Bell Is A Cup. When Mark mentions the Wire fans via the 80s, the only comment or aside to make to that, is that there are some fans that got into Wire in the 80s, but that have more of the sensibilities for the post-punk bands (though I am not a fan of The Fall, and like a bit of Magazine, but would not consider myself a big fan). While letting my tastes be out in the open, I do find the first three to be the most consistent period... but I do not find the need to then think that Pink Flag and Chairs Missing being superior to 80s albums. Pink Flag is the only punk album that I play these days... not even being able to stand much the "punk" recordings of my beloved Joy Division, or any other punk material. I still enjoy reading the bashings of Manscape... but I also love that album. Yeah, there are some weak tracks, but there is also a lot of good... and it is easy to re-edit it to a great album with a CD-R. - -fernando At 11:58 PM 1/15/01 +0200, giluz wrote: > > >>Heh! Then we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. > > To me, 154 sounds like a compilation with ideas flying > > off in all directions. << > > > > I'm guessing you came to Wire via the '80s, then the early stuff? > > A lot of > > people who took that route seem to have that take on the EMI stuff... > >That's a really weird thing and I always wondered about that. I'm the kind >of in-between guy that got to know the early Wire in the 80's, before they >reformed. As much as I liked Ideal Copy, Bell Is A Cup and IBTABA I never >thought of them as getting even close to the quality of the early stuff. I >liked the fact that Wire were reinventing themselves - I just wasn't so keen >on the way they did it. I'm really interested in hearing what people's >reactions were to the 80's stuff as their introduction to Wire and what >their reactions were later when they heard the early stuff. Anyone care to >comment? > >giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:36:09 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: [idealcopy] APB for Wire stuff! Greetings to all of the 'Idealists' out there! I wanted to find out if anyone out there has access to the "Everybody Loves a History" book and/or the "Free Speech..." CD. I have scoured a number of bookstores and all of the record stores I know of in the San Jose/Santa Cruz area and have come up empty handed. In fact the best bookshop in Santa Cruz couldn't even come up with a listing on their search computer! I even gave them book title AND the author's name. Anyway, if anyone has either and is interested in parting with it, I'd be quite interested. I was not aware Wire did any videos, so the CD piqued my interest when I read about it on the wireviews page. Thanks RJH ===== - ----------------------------------------------------------- "Learn to handle hot things, keep your knives sharp, and above all, have a good time. - -Julia Child - ----------------------------------------------------------- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:47:13 -0800 (PST) From: eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires << I'm really interested in hearing what people's reactions were to the 80's stuff as their introduction to Wire and what their reactions were later when they heard the early stuff. Anyone care to comment?>> giluz Sure. I first heard Wire when they released Ideal Copy. The first song I heard was probably Ahead. It really grabbed my attention. Kinda different, but very good. I bought the album and couldn't stop listening to it. I went fo find more of their stuff but couldn't find any. In doing some reading, I found out they had released some albums in the late seventies. When these were finally re-released I bought them and found them to be equally as good even though the sound was different. I think because of all the reading I had done of reviews on these early albums I pretty much knew what to expect. I think Wire have managed to evolve their sound through the years better that any other band I know. Eric Astro Page http://community.webtv.net/eric719/TheStrangListDeep ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:05:49 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: An 80's Wire fan (was RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires) >I'm really interested in hearing what people's >reactions were to the 80's stuff as their introduction to Wire and what>their reactions were later when they heard the early stuff. Anyone care to >comment? > Okay - I'm not shy. (^_^) Here goes nothing... (And, remember - these are only my opinions. One thing about Wire is that, with the possible exception of Mancape, everyone has really different opinions about what the best Wire albums are. (^_^)) Being American and growing up far away from the punk revolution of 1977 in Seattle, Washington, I think that the very first time I heard Wire was on an R.E.M. album - their cover of Strange on Document. It didn't really sound all that different from the rest of the album to me, so I didn't even notice that it was a Wire track at the time. I remember reading a Tower Records' Pulse magazine interview with Wire about the same time as the R.E.M. cover that piqued my curiosity. A quote from Graham in particular - he said that his first record was a "Diagnose your car" record. He said that he used to cut grooves in the record so that the sick car noises would loop. I thought to myself, "Anyone who hears music in that, like I do, is certainly worth further investigation." About this time, I finally *really* heard Wire - on an Enigma records sampler. The track? Ahead. Picked up the Ideal Copy on the strength of this track and loved it. Still do, next to A-Z, it's probably my favorite. Next I got A Bell Is A Cup.... liked it a lot - still love Kidney Bingos - but it wasn't as demented as The Ideal Copy, so it didn't rate as highly. Certain songs are amazing on this record - Come back in two halves, for example - but the overall smoothness took getting used to. IBTABA was much better, to my way of thinking. German Shepards, for instance, still rates really highly for me. Manscape - eh - take it or leave it. The Drill? Great two songs kickoff, then - eh - Manscape again. The First Letter? Smashing return to form that doesn't sound like a return to form. Not quite as good as the Ideal Copy, A Bell Is a cup.., or IBTABA but still worthy. (Much later I picked up Vien - I liked this release too.) Then, I started listening to the early stuff. Didn't care for Pink Flag too much originally - I guess because I wasn't there I missed out on what all the fuss was about. Eventually it grew on me, but I think it's the Wire album I play the least. (Yes, less than Manscape. Sorry (^_^)) Chairs Missing is more interesting to me. Especially the singles that were bundled on the American CD - A Question Of Degree is great! 154 is a terrific album - again, not quite as high in my estimation as the Ideal Copy, but closest of the early albums. Odds and sods: Document and Eyewitness is not a fave, but fascinating nonetheless. I think it's the unavoidable distortion on the Electric Ballroom tracks that spoils it for me. I keep wondering what the studio versions would have sounded like - especially because this would have been around the 154 and A-Z period - a fertile time for Wire, in my estimation. (The CD has the Notre Dame cuts - they're pretty good live versions.) Behind the Curtain is cute - the demo of Underwater Experiences is great. I'm glad I have it, but I don't listen to it too much. Turns and Strokes helps complete the Document and Eyewitness saga. I think it's a very good release - in some ways better than D&E - and I must say that 2nd Length is probably my favorite Wire single of all time, oddly enough. (Even if it was originally released as a B-side to Crazy about Love, Wire had intended it to be a possible single on Charisma records, so I still think of it as a single.) The early Peel sessions are good - probably about as essential to me as the Behind the Curtain disc. That's about it, really. Thanks for the space, Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:19:34 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: An 80's Wire fan (was RE: [idealcopy] Re: Dating the Wires) Paul, << Document and Eyewitness is not a fave, but fascinating nonetheless. I think it's the unavoidable distortion on the Electric Ballroom tracks that spoils it for me. I keep wondering what the studio versions would have sounded like - especially because this would have been around the 154 and A-Z period - a fertile time for Wire, in my estimation. >> My all-time favourite Wire period really, from 154 to D&E. It was so good to hear Ally in Exile revived and refreshed at Edinburgh, and I really hope they revisit some more of that stuff - a cheap 'n' easy way to get some "new" material into the set! Must repost my formula for the follow-up to 154 some time again! Cheers, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:32:08 +0000 From: Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Alternative Mancunians giluz wrote: > but, in this city at least, most clubs and bars seem to rely on DJs with > > an incredibly narrow musical agenda. > > (usually hard house, well-worn Indie standards like Oasis or boringly > > 'authentic' jazz-funk) > > This is kinda surprising for me. I always thought the biggest advantage of > big places was that there were enough people to form a quite big alternative > scene. I think the problem is I don't like what constitutes 'alternative' in Manchester at the moment and neither do my colleagues who are doing the club night. Twas not always the case. In Manchester we have various alternatives: egotistical tosspots playing tired variations on the 70s 'rare groove' theme, we have the likes of Badly Drawn Boy (Slacker chic and 'proper songs'....Emerson Lake and Palmer all rolled into in one unpleasant package...makes you want to start you own club night etc...) and all that 'Twisted Nerve' lot. (Like Factory but without the wit or charm, and dreary obsession with Limited Editions, Vinyl (Oh how very f***ing precious) and making records that sound 35 years old....oh very clever). Maybe I'm just spoilt living here and I should go spend a few weeks with Giluz in Tel Avi trance clubs, but as far as I can tell, the majority of so called 'cool' venues in Manchester play an astonishingly uniform and predictable set of stuff. I used to be a quiet, reserved type but a year or two of this crap I get subjected to in my home town has turned me into a snarling Johnny Rotten! You get the odd one-off extreme noise terror thing, but usually its so underground it hurts! I feel what we are doing is more subversive than a few boys in a basement playing sandpaper discs to each other, because: a.) We aren't too proud to advertise properly and entice punters to attend. b.) We play stuff normal people like, and then slip in lots of off-beam stuff so we can pervert them a bit :) c.) We have a female DJ to ensure the music doesn't get too 'wanky' (as she puts it) We are an interesting and acessible underground I suppose! We want the thing to develop and maybe root out the real Manchester that lurks behind the stuff that crappy local music press writes about..... Then again it might not work at all and I will end up looking like a complete tosser. At least when my grandchildren say....what did you do in the great blandness wars of 2001 I'll say I'd played some Wire and Kid 606 tunes in a pub once......... The Doctor Will See You Now www.thekitchensink.org.uk ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #15 ******************************