From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V4 #14 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, January 15 2001 Volume 04 : Number 014 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Manscape ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] Alternative Mancunians ["giluz" ] RE: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: packaging-going off and on topic [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts with strangled pixies [=?iso-8859-1?q] Re: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts and fave 2K albums [Rick Hindman ] Re: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts and fave 2K albums [Jeffrey with ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:24:18 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] Manscape - -----Original Message----- From: giluz [mailto:giluz@nettalk.com] Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 12:24 PM To: Cambra, Robert Subject: Manscape Looking for a thread? > How about this: assuming, of course, that Wire always give their best > effort, and in a spirit of critical goodwill, what is it about > this one that > so many find disappointing? One of my favorite things about Wire > for me has > always been the compelling and unique sound textures they use; but it all > sounds out-of-the-box here. Maybe it would sound completely different in 10 years time or so. At the moment, most of Wire's 80's stuff sounds much more dated than their 70's releases. The funny thing was, that when Manscape was released I found it too experimental and electronic to my taste. I can't imagine what on earth made me think that, when I'm listening to it nowadays, but that just goes to show how subjective these kinda things are, and how our opinions are influenced by current tastes and trends. I believe even the people that couldn't stand any music which is remotely electronic, are now more tolerant to it just because their ears got used to it through listening to radios, commercials and film music. What I'm aiming at is that the same goes for the creative process itself. You can't really tell if your next release is gonna be a masterpiece or just crap. I've heard lots of artists claiming that they knew, when they were recording, that their album was gonna be great. That's a very easy thing to say - I never heard anyone claim the opposite - "We thought we were gonna do a great album but it turned out crap at the end", but I'm sure that happens quite a lot. Even when an artist has complete control over his work, he can't escape his own bad judgement. Multiply this by the number of artists working together on an album, and you get to wonder how could anyone release anything good at all. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:25:47 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] Alternative Mancunians > The sole aim of the night is to play as imaginative and wide-ranging a > selection of music as possible. > Expect the unexpected! > We reckon music fans in the 21st century enjoy a pretty wide range of > stuff (this list proves that) > but, in this city at least, most clubs and bars seem to rely on DJs with > an incredibly narrow musical agenda. > (usually hard house, well-worn Indie standards like Oasis or boringly > 'authentic' jazz-funk) This is kinda surprising for me. I always thought the biggest advantage of big places was that there were enough people to form a quite big alternative scene. I was quite sensitive to this when I was living in London in the beginning of the 90's, especially when I was comparing this to the local 'alternative' scene in Israel. Israel has a population of 6 million, and only 1 million of which live in the Tel-Aviv area, which is the cultural capital (almost nothing significant happens in Jerusalem, except for all those ill-advised political decisions made by the parliament). There isn't any real hope for an alternative culture in a place where even mainstream artists can't make a living because there aren't enough people that would buy their albums or go to their gigs. In London I've seen My Bloody Valentine fill up the Town and Country Club and then go touring across the country. They probably made in that tour far more money than the most successful Israeli mainstream musician. We have the same problem Tim described in Tel-Aviv as well - most clubs would play house-trance and very few clubs would offer any alternatives. But I'm quite surprised to hear that you have the same problem in Manchester. This is a city that already had a quite big alternative music scene. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 18:37:42 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel > When I was in London 2 years ago I bought a promo CDR with paper > label (Promo > Swim pwm 10) which reads as follows: > "Malka Spigel radio edits", tracks from "My Pet Fish" 1. It's odd > (3:48) 2. > One (3:44). > Anybody knows if there was also a commercial CD-Single? > Cheers > Thomas According to Malka's discography on the ~swim page, no singles were released from "My Pet Fish". I don't know if this was recently added, but I really enjoyed the Minimal Compact section on the site - a very detailed account of the band. Find it at http://www.swimhq.com/artists/Minimal_Biog.html. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:42:09 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel In a message dated 14/01/01 16:39:06 GMT Standard Time, giluz@nettalk.com writes: << When I was in London 2 years ago I bought a promo CDR with paper > label (Promo > Swim pwm 10) which reads as follows: > "Malka Spigel radio edits", tracks from "My Pet Fish" 1. It's odd > (3:48) 2. > One (3:44). > Anybody knows if there was also a commercial CD-Single? > Cheers > Thomas According to Malka's discography on the ~swim page, no singles were released from "My Pet Fish". I don't know if this was recently added, but I really enjoyed the Minimal Compact section on the site - a very detailed account of the band. Find it at http://www.swimhq.com/artists/Minimal_Biog.html. giluz >> ////// "it's odd" would have made a great single. there's a video for it on the recent swim video too so maybe it was planned but didn't happen. maybe as it's so different to the rest of MPF? shame.p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:50:20 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: packaging-going off and on topic In a message dated 14/01/01 04:05:11 GMT Standard Time, Eardrumbuz@aol.com writes: << i'm a sucker for nice packaging. have we discussed favorite wire artwork/packages yet? interesting that manscape is the least favorite album of most listers (myself included), yet the cardboard manscape package is my favorite wire package design. i also really like the photo on the drill 12" cover, and the pink flag cover design as well. what do you all think of wire cover art/package design? >> //////// i must say almost all the EMI releases had classic sleeves. except maybe "map ref" , which is a bit amateur. however , there aren't many of the mute sleeves i could get excited about. snakedrill , ABIAC, kidney bingos are all nice. but a lot of the others are pretty uninspired ; ideal copy , silk skin paws , manscape , ahead to name but 4. shame because most of the solo releases were well-packaged and yet the later wire releases i felt could have been realised better. wonder whose idea they all were? p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 20:15:24 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel > giluz > >> > ////// "it's odd" would have made a great single. there's a video > for it on > the recent swim video too so maybe it was planned but didn't > happen. maybe as > it's so different to the rest of MPF? shame.p Talking to me about song names is like talking to a blind man about colours (I'll check it out at home, though). Lots of Malka and Colin's stuff could have been great as singles. But I don't think that's the issue here. It seems to me that ~swim has a singles policy which is much like what it used to be like in the 60's: If they do release singles, they're usually not off the albums, or they're in a different version. A single for them is just one of the formats through which you release music, and not the standard hit-maker thing. I think you could say the same about the videos. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:10:01 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel In a message dated 14/01/01 18:06:38 GMT Standard Time, giluz@nettalk.com writes: << Talking to me about song names is like talking to a blind man about colours (I'll check it out at home, though). Lots of Malka and Colin's stuff could have been great as singles. But I don't think that's the issue here. It seems to me that ~swim has a singles policy which is much like what it used to be like in the 60's: If they do release singles, they're usually not off the albums, or they're in a different version. A single for them is just one of the formats through which you release music, and not the standard hit-maker thing. I think you could say the same about the videos. giluz >> ////// i think i've got all the swim albums but only a couple (maybe 4 ; voice / oracle remixes / immersion remixes #3 / last hand) of the singles. from discographies they mostly look like remixes , maybe when i'm feeling rich....... so has anyone got any recommendations of swim singles? and , as an aside , who are resolution? is that single any good? p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 20:41:25 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel > ////// i think i've got all the swim albums but only a couple (maybe 4 ; > voice / oracle remixes / immersion remixes #3 / last hand) of the > singles. > from discographies they mostly look like remixes , maybe when i'm feeling > rich....... Oracle/Immersion are remixes. Voice was only released on a 12" and as a bonus CD on Bastard. Last Hand _ I don't know that one, but I guess it's not off 'In Glorious Black & Blue' - what's it like then? > > so has anyone got any recommendations of swim singles? Malka's Hide's great. Don't know anything about the rest. The new Silo album is supposed to be out - it's worth it even if it's half as good as Instar. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 19:41:13 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts with strangled pixies First thing I heard on Cd was The Stranglers collection & I remember being very unimpressed with the sound! Paul W's first CD was the same as mine! >>>My first CD was a freebie given away with the Spiral Scratch Magazine. It is a 3" disc with 4 tracks (including Tame by the Pixies). In fact I only bought the paper for the Pixies track which was a demo version, I think. However I gave my copy to a friend who had a Cd player as I was pretty certain that these things were going to turn out to be 'the rich man's 8 track'. The good kharma of this generous deed resulted in a flood of promo Cd's to review & eventually I gave in & bought a Cd player. First Wire CD was 'In Vivo' 3" CDS I remember snapping it up because I had IBTABA on vinyl (obviously) which omits in Vivo & I don't think I actually heard it until I bought the single. It seemed odd that Cd albums were #4-5 more expensive than vinyl LPs when CD singles sold for the same price as 12" singles - obviously some music biz con was up! I very rarely 'replace' vinyl with CD but '154' was an exception since as mentioned by others, the freebie Ep is a terrible pressing, I'd never heard the studio 'Go Ahead' & I've pretty much worn the Lp out. Oh and the CD was only a fiver! 'Manscape' was another exception - - not exactly a replacement since I still play & largely prefer the vinyl version - the 3 Cd only tracks & 'Goodbye Ploy' being the weakest IMO - but I got a US cut-out copy for a quid & was well chuffed with the longer version of 'Hung Your Craftsman's' which was a total surprise! BTW favourite 'Manscape' tracks are that one & 'Other Moments'. The US Enigma Cd I have came in a 'longbox' has a quote from Michael Stipe on the front: "Wire changed my life in '77. It's time for this decade's dose." It also hypes the contents with: "Includes 'Life in the Manscape' & 'Torch It'"; so maybe 'Torch It' would have been a single too if 'Life' had flooded the US danceterias... I'd have gone for 'Other Moments' myself. I much prefer 'Manscape' to the Wir album. Bad mix or not (actually I don't think the mix is particularly bad) the 'Manscape' material is much stronger and cohesive. Despite much repeated listening of late, 'The First Letter' still sounds like a hodge podge of semi-realised pieces to me, although 'Ticking Mouth' & 'A Bargain' are excellent. IMO 'Manscape' sounds like they were really going for it, whereas 'The First Letter' sounds a bit too subservient to the dancefloor trends of the day & Bruce's guitar is never loud enough! If anything needs remixing its that weak sound that lets 'Naked, Whooping & Suchlike' down. 'So & Slow' has always bored me to the skip button, & as for inauspicious beginnings I never can remember whether it's that one or 'Take it' that starts the album! Just had a look at this month's The Wire in which 'the horror in clay' Mark E. Smith is tortured by Savage Pencil's Eminem CD (I just hope he blagged it!). Anyway, there's also an interview with Japanese sho player Ko Ishikawa who is touring the Uk from 12-21 Jan as part of Otomo Yoshihide's rather unfortunately moniquered 'Japanorama' concerts... and he mentions a certain Bruce Gilbert as a creator of 'Uk rock and techno related experimental music' which he has enjoyed. Anyone going to 'Japanorama' in Liverpool 16/1 or Manchester 18/1? Lock up your clay shadys in the trees! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:19:38 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts and fave 2K albums - --- Graeme Rowland wrote: > First thing I heard on Cd was The Stranglers > collection & I remember being very unimpressed with > the sound! The earliest CD's seemed to be rather hit or miss in terms of quality. I remember about a year into my 'digital conversion' picking up a CD of "Yessongs" which was a favorite LP of mine and was horrified at how awful the sound was on it! > - not exactly a replacement since I still play & > largely prefer the vinyl version - the 3 Cd only > tracks & 'Goodbye Ploy' being the weakest IMO - but Seems like Manscape get knocked about quite a bit but I really like it! I've only heard the CD version so far, but the only cuts I sometimes omit are 'Small Black Reptile','Sixth Sense' and 'Children of Groceries'. As a side note, I am involved with an annual fire-oriented festival and made up 4 CD's of appropriate music and 'Torch it' ALWAYS gets people dancing! > 'Manscape' sounds > like > they were really going for it, whereas 'The First > Letter' sounds a bit too subservient to the > dancefloor > trends of the day & Bruce's guitar is never loud > enough! I agree! I think they were in an intense mood when they did Manscape! I have to say I've not heard 'First Letter' yet...should I? And...some faves from the past year.... (Musically, I found 2K to be pretty lame overall, BTW) King Crimson 'ConstruKtion of Light' (sic) Radiohead 'Kid A' MDFMK s/t Residents 'Refused' Southern Culture on the Skids 'Liquored up and Laquered Down' Fayman and Fripp 'Temple in the Clouds' And actually, I think those may have been the only new releases I bought all year! Maybe 2001 will be a little more interesting musically! RJH ===== - ----------------------------------------------------------- "Learn to handle hot things, keep your knives sharp, and above all, have a good time. - -Julia Child - ----------------------------------------------------------- Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:39:21 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Malka Spigel > ////// i think i've got all the swim albums but only a couple (maybe 4 ; > voice / oracle remixes / immersion remixes #3 / last hand) of the > singles. > from discographies they mostly look like remixes , maybe when i'm feeling > rich....... Oracle/Immersion are remixes. Voice was only released on a 12" and as a bonus CD on Bastard. Last Hand _ I don't know that one, but I guess it's not off 'In Glorious Black & Blue' - what's it like then? //// "last hand" is on IGBAB. somebody told me this was one of swim's top sellers but i got it cheap , the other tracks are quite good. actually i like the whole album and this isn't one of my favourite tracks. > > so has anyone got any recommendations of swim singles? Malka's Hide's great. Don't know anything about the rest. The new Silo album is supposed to be out - it's worth it even if it's half as good as Instar. //// i was thinking of that as a mini-album. silo was good but lobe and dol-lop were better. inane capitalistic aside ; there's a copy of dol-lop up on ebay for $0.01 which is the bargain of the year.p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 21:56:55 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Torching digital firsts and fave 2K albums On Sun, 14 Jan 2001, Rick Hindman wrote: > The earliest CD's seemed to be rather hit or miss in > terms of quality. I remember about a year into my > 'digital conversion' picking up a CD of "Yessongs" > which was a favorite LP of mine and was horrified at > how awful the sound was on it! ("chorus!") That's just the way the songs go... - --Jeff, who'll cop to having several Yes CDs...but then I'm an old fart, so... J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::Let's quit talking about it and start watching it on TV:: __Susan Lowry__ ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V4 #14 ******************************