From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #378 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, December 20 2000 Volume 03 : Number 378 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] OT. Who was Duchamp? ["Wilson, Paul" ] [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #377 [Anthony Clough ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #377 [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT. Who was Duchamp? [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT. Who was Duchamp? [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] [idealcopy] Re: Duchamps/ Wire Mag MAINLY OFF TOPIC [Howard Spencer ] RE: [idealcopy] o-t-E-G-A-C (egad) ["giluz" ] Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] Re: [offtopic] Obscure cage [Mark Short ] [idealcopy] Fwd: Meet...THE RESIDENTS! ["Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] OT. Who was Duchamp? <20th cent artist, most closely associated with the dadaists/surrealists. he was a fascinating artist, pioneering the use of found objects to create art (he called them readymades). like cage, he relied on chance operations to create some of his work as well. and like wire, he doesn't really fit into any one category or style. the philadelphia museum of art has a fairly large collection of his work> Perhaps most famous for his "urinal" piece. Also noted for his readings of poems which are basically abstract words. Anyone interseted in this sort of stuff, should check out: Futurism And Dada Reviewed 1912-1959 (LTMCD 2301), a CD of Various bits and pieces (including Marcel Duchamp). Paul (and you thought I'd gone - rezmole) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:56:23 +0000 () From: Anthony Clough Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #377 Discussion of Duchamp is pretty much on-topic. I remember an early interview where Wire were trying to establish their art-over-punk credentials. Asked about their influences they all said they were influenced by Duchamp except Robert who chipped in "I'm not". He can be praised/blamed for much of what was done in the name of art in the last century being one of the first (if not the first) to say anything could be art or that art was whatever an artist said it was. Like Wire he was a serious joker. (He also said that all this didn't guarantee stuff was any good - just that it was art). Tony. > From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com > Subject: [idealcopy] Re: duchamp -OT...only slightly if you ask me :o) > > In a message dated 12/18/0 7:40:49 AM, giluz@nettalk.com writes: > > > > > > >1. Who was Duchamp? > > 20th cent artist, most closely associated with the dadaists/surrealists. he > was a fascinating artist, pioneering the use of found objects to create art > (he called them readymades).. like cage, he relied on chance operations to > create some of his work as well. and like wire, he doesn't really fit into > any one category or style. the philadelphia museum of art has a fairly large > collection of his work. while trying to look up the url for you, i came > across this site: > Click Here: > Marcel Duchamp World Community > http://www.marcelduchamp.net/exhibition/exhibition.htm > > looks pretty cool. > > enjoy, > > paul c.d. > > ------------------------------ > > End of idealcopy-digest V3 #377 > ******************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:36:59 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: [idealcopy] ~swim's Non-Space The non-space at ~swim's site has been updated. Apart from Malka's Ideal Copy and Motion Sickness projects, it now includes a very interesting project by Nina Walsh and a Lobe video as well. http://www.swimhq.com/nonspace/The_Non_Space.html giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:59:47 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #377 Just another Wire joke there - Robert was just quoting Monty Python. Brian: "You are all individuals!" Crowd: "We are all individuals!" Lone voice: "I'm not" Mark << Asked about their influences they all said they were influenced by Duchamp except Robert who chipped in "I'm not" >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:02:37 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT. Who was Duchamp? Paul, << Perhaps most famous for his "urinal" piece. >> Recently vandalised by those Japanese art-terrorist tossers whose name escapes me. (the ones who slept in Tracy Emin's bed). Predictably, they pissed in the urinal. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:12:00 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT. Who was Duchamp? That's right they did indeed fill the urinal. I did not realise that was Duchamp's urinal. We are all learning together. :-) Chris MarkBursa@aol.com on 19/12/2000 14:02:37 To: P.Wilson@bury.gov.uk, idealcopy@smoe.org cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/Finance/MEDAS) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT. Who was Duchamp? Paul, << Perhaps most famous for his "urinal" piece. >> Recently vandalised by those Japanese art-terrorist tossers whose name escapes me. (the ones who slept in Tracy Emin's bed). Predictably, they pissed in the urinal. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:14:43 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Duchamps/ Wire Mag MAINLY OFF TOPIC Didn't Duchamps do the urinal piece-of-art that Eno boasted of having pissed in? I think BE got into pseuds corner in Private Eye for some remark about `art and utility' arising from this. I took out a sub to Wire mag on the strength of the feature on our Wire and overall, I'm glad I did, even if my interest in some of the Fast Show Jazz-club stuff they cover is, um, limited. Bought the NME for the first time in years the other week and quite enjoyed it - esp a feature where they played modern popular music to an old fart musicologist. But their main feature was on `influential bands' (yawn)- all the usual kiss-arse nonsense, and astonishingly (not) Bowie came top of the list, with Wire nowhere to be seen. Re Bowie - just how much foundation, re-touching, polyfilla, etc. goes into the current photos, the ones with the floppy hair? Another reason to like Wire - the `wrinkly and proud' look they adopted in Wiremag feature, even if it did attract snidery from that well know paragon of male pulchritude, Mark E Smith. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:40:00 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Duchamps/ Wire Mag MAINLY OFF TOPIC > Re Bowie - just how much foundation, re-touching, polyfilla, etc. goes > into the current photos, the ones with the floppy hair? Another reason > to like Wire - the `wrinkly and proud' look they adopted in Wiremag > feature, even if it did attract snidery from that well know paragon of > male pulchritude, Mark E Smith. And did you see his recent photographs in Wire (well, not that recent, but it was still less than a year ago). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:42:09 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Duchamps/ Wire Mag MAINLY OFF TOPIC Howard, << I took out a sub to Wire mag on the strength of the feature on our Wire and overall, I'm glad I did, even if my interest in some of the Fast Show Jazz-club stuff they cover is, um, limited. << Nice. Same here, exactly. Worth it for the 5 free CDs that came with the sub. Last issue was particularly uninteresting though. >>Bought the NME for the first time in years the other week and quite enjoyed it - esp a feature where they played modern popular music to an old fart musicologist. But their main feature was on `influential bands' (yawn)- all the usual kiss-arse nonsense, and astonishingly (not) Bowie came top of the list, with Wire nowhere to be seen.<< I've been buying NME for the past 23 years and still have it delivered. Recently I've noticed that the writers seem to know less and less about any music made before about 1995. And it worryingly panders to American shite like eminenemenem and limp biscuit. (As do MTV and XFM). Still, the gig guide is useful... >>Re Bowie - just how much foundation, re-touching, polyfilla, etc. goes into the current photos, the ones with the floppy hair? << Abysmal isn't it. Go and buy the BBC sessions to remind yourself of how good he was....30 years ago! >>Another reason to like Wire - the `wrinkly and proud' look they adopted in Wiremag feature, even if it did attract snidery from that well know paragon of male pulchritude, Mark E Smith. >> Fantastic, wasn't it. Mr Pot, meet the Kettle brothers... At least Wire have their own teeth. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:40:51 -0600 From: "dMc" Subject: [idealcopy] o-t-E-G-A-C (egad) > Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:43:32 +0200 > From: "giluz" > Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Off-topic CAGE > Lots of what Cage did was heavily influenced by eastern philosophy (plus > excessive mushrooms indulgence). The words 'excessive' and 'indulgence' are debatable. Mr Cage "It is no accident that the words music and mushroom are together in the dictionary" > Another very important aspect of Cage's work was chance. Even though jazz > was already around and the concept of musical improvisation wasn't new, > classical music didn't quite take to the idea of improvising. Debatable as well - 20th century musicians playing the old masters have been adverse to the concept of improvisation but "back in the day" improvisation was common. Improvisation , however has no nessicary connection with chance, nor are Cages pieces nessicarily about improvisation. Cage's scores are a direction to the musician, as is any score, really. The fact that the scores do follow a 1-5-4 progression or terminate with an authentic cadence challenges listeners, many of whom require said structures to identify sound as music. I cannot remember who defined masic as 'organized sound', but that is my operative definition. And Cage's music is organized, make no mistake. The fact that some of the organizational decisions are mad by chance, in no way diminishes the quality of the organization. One last point on this thread: IMO - the import Cage, Pollack, Duchamp, et al is not so much in the thinking as the doing. Also, since we are so far off anyways, and name checking surrealists , a web search on Remedios Varos will reward you with her under-appreciated brilliance. Dali - PAH! > > Two questions: > > 1. Who was Duchamp? A quick plug for Duchamp's Musica Erratum recently issued on sub rosa Duchamp's music is under-recorded as well - there was a brilliant piece on sub rosa's dada and surrealism compilation some years back which whet my appetite. > 2. does anyone know of that Cage tribute made in the 70's and released on > one of Eno's Obscure records? It had people like Robert Wyatt, Carla Bley & > Fred Frith in it. Anyone know if it was ever released on CD? ???? One of the 10 Obscure LPs had a cage piece, which may have featured these artists, but it was not a tribute. To my knowledge the only 2 Obscure CD re-releases are Discreet Music and New and Rediscovered Instruments. I would be happy to hear of more. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:07:47 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] o-t-E-G-A-C (egad) > One of the 10 Obscure LPs had a cage piece, which may have featured these > artists, but it was not a tribute. > To my knowledge the only 2 Obscure CD re-releases are Discreet > Music and New > and Rediscovered Instruments. > I would be happy to hear of more. Well, I don't know if the word tribute was appropriate, but it's certainly an Obscure Records LP which has one side dedicated to Cage compositions. I don't remember the name of the album, but I'll look through my vinyl collection and find it. ps. Gavin Bryars' 'Jesus Blood Never Failed Me Yet' was also released on CD - not just as the naff Tom Waits extended version, but also in its original Obscure form. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:37:31 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees >>Oh, and they championed the Cranes. >>Good riddance. >>John >Hey, I like the Cranes! I can't be the only >one on this list : ) >Chris. I quite like some of their stuff, and have one of their best-ofs. Shining Road is still a great track IMO, although the quality of their other stuff is somewhat variable. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:51:12 +0000 From: Mark Short Subject: [idealcopy] Re: [offtopic] Obscure cage giluz wrote: > > > One of the 10 Obscure LPs had a cage piece, which may have featured these > > artists, but it was not a tribute. > > To my knowledge the only 2 Obscure CD re-releases are Discreet > > Music and New > > and Rediscovered Instruments. > > I would be happy to hear of more. > > Well, I don't know if the word tribute was appropriate, but it's certainly > an Obscure Records LP which has one side dedicated to Cage compositions. I > don't remember the name of the album, but I'll look through my vinyl > collection and find it. > It's the one by Jan Steele. Its title escapes me. The Cage pieces are settings of texts by James Joyce and e.e.cummings. If memory serves these are quite easy listening by Cage standards. I saw Cage in a live conversation a few years back. I was expecting him to be a mellow mystic, but he seemed a bit tetchy. > ps. Gavin Bryars' 'Jesus Blood Never Failed Me Yet' was also released on > CD - not just as the naff Tom Waits extended version, but also in its > original Obscure form. > Harold Budd's "Pavillion Of Dreams" is also available on CD. It's always puzzled me that even though may of the Obscure artistes have become big names (Nyman, Bryars) that so few of the Obscure recordings have made it onto CD. A big shame , cos the vinyl pressings are very poor quality, made all the more obvious by the quietness of the music. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:55:57 -0500 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] Fwd: Meet...THE RESIDENTS! >From: "Atrecordings Newsletter" >To: >Subject: Meet...THE RESIDENTS! >Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:45:11 +0100 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [212.100.174.206] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBC08F596001F40042A08D464AECE7D910; Tue Dec 19 10:36:38 2000 >Received: from bruno (212.100.174.206) by atrec2.herbie.com (Worldmail >1.3.167) for newsletter@atrecordings.com; 19 Dec 2000 19:33:00 +0100 >From webmaster@atrecordings.com Tue Dec 19 10:38:36 2000 >Delivered-To: >Message-ID: <001d01c069e3$6f7ab7e0$03fea8c0@bruno> >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 > >It's been said that the one thing we never forget about a person is their >gender. >The Residents are genderless. >The next most memorable feature is the face. >The Residents are faceless >The third thing we remember is their personality. >The Residents have no personalities. > >This week, Atrecordings proudly presents one of the most complete portraits >of THE RESIDENTS anywhere on the internet...along side our tailor-made >visual history (lots of pics - a 'must-see'), you'll find loads of info >about the band and related artists...PLUS! an exclusive set of RESIDENTS >MP3s which you can't get hold of anywhere else. >http://atrecordings.com/events/events/residents/mpfrees/index.asp > >Among the albums featured on our special Residents pages are 'Commercial >Album', 'Wormwood', 'Freakshow', 'Have a Bad Day', 'Roadworks', Duck Stab', >which you can hear in FULL real audio... >To get the full lowdown on one of the greatest enigmas in modern music, >click here: >http://www.atrecordings.com/frontsite/LabelArtistAlbum/artist2.asp?label=lab_eurora00&artist=art_reside00 > > >**** > >FREE MP3s... > >This week, Soulstatic sound artist D presents one of the tracks from his >awesome release 'Untitles' as a free MP3.For it's innovation and superb >production, this CD is really outstanding and deserves a 'top ten' rating >for this year's electronica releases... >Check out 'Harmnx' here: >http://www.atrecordings.com/events/giveaways/freemp3/index.asp > > >*** > >Jingle bells, Jingle bells... > >...Atrecordings.com has hand-crafted 4 special compilation CDs for the >holiday season... >Until January 1st 2001 you can buy the club, classical, avant-weird and >lounge selections at the cool price of $11.99 http://www.atrecordings.com/ > >PLUS for a short-time-only any four CDs bought we'll chuck in the >atrecordings bonus CD 'Super Sounds of the 00's' for free! >'What else?' we hear you say? Well you can't go past the time-honoured >tradition of the tacky gift-wrapping free of charge... Who loves ya, baby? > >For personal assistance email : santababe@atrecordings.com > >Or go to this page for extra help : >http://atrecordings.com/templates/santaclaus/index.asp > > > >**** > >To unsubscribe yourself from this newsletter go to the following webpage: > >http://www.atrecordings.com/infosite/infocorner/register/index.html > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >You want to tell us something else? info@atrecordings.com > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:36:35 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Q ; a clarification just to clear up any misunderstanding graeme i meant to say that Q reviews a really big pile of discs every month , probably more than any other mag. i never meant to suggest they reviewed everything. obviously fans of merzbow or the hafler trio probably won't find too much space for their heroes , but they review a lot of swim stuff plus dance/hip-hop/indie whatever. should mention record collector , which does a pretty good reviews section too. p ps just heard on the news kirsty mccoll died , i did like "free world". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:43:42 -0500 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: [idealcopy] "LOOK!!! 1st Colin Newman's Country Panorama" Found five new works by Colin Newman on e-bay today. Our Colin is a man of many talents. http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ebaytag1= ebayreg&ht=1&query=colin+newman&ebaytag1code=0&SortProperty=MetaEndSort Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:57:12 -0000 From: "ian barrett" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] colin ; the untold truth From: > Paul, > He has a "Collaborative and co-operative working style and likes "singing and > choral music". Must be our man! > > I also find on Ebay that there's a Colin Newman who makes nice twee painted > plates. > Mark And another who illustrates dinosaur books. Or something. Ian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:53:55 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] colin ; the untold truth Ian, There's also a book of poetry by a Bruce Gilbert.... Mark << And another who illustrates dinosaur books. Or something >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:03:39 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT. Who was Duchamp? In a message dated 12/19/0 10:20:52 AM, Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk writes: >I did not realise that was >Duchamp's urinal. We are all learning together. :-) that piece, titled "fountain" was one of the ones signed by rrose selavy. - -paul c.d. (glad duchamp can be considered "on topic"...perhaps there'll be renewed interest in my aural exquisite corpse proposal!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:58:52 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT. Who was Duchamp? On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 Eardrumbuz@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/19/0 10:20:52 AM, Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk writes: > > that piece, titled "fountain" was one of the ones signed by rrose selavy. Nope - that one's signed "R. Mutt." - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::flag on the moon...how'd it get there?:: ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #378 *******************************