From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #377 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, December 19 2000 Volume 03 : Number 377 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] CAGE [kevin eden ] [idealcopy] The Wire [kevin eden ] RE: [idealcopy] Off-topic CAGE ["giluz" ] [idealcopy] The Wire; Frequency Variation; Cage [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees [John Roberts ] Re: [idealcopy] colin ; the untold truth [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees ["stephen graziano" ] Re: [idealcopy] Shed Frequencies Smell Death of the Music Press [MarkBurs] [idealcopy] Re: duchamp -OT...only slightly if you ask me :o) [Eardrumbuz] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:37:27 -0800 (PST) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] CAGE I wouldn't say the "it's the idea behind the piece which is more important than its 'musical' content." Cage proposed that the musical piece itself did not have to be musical in the 'old' sense. He proposed, like Duchamp, that the process shouls be as important as the outcome. This in itself can lead to some horrendous results, but Duchamp, Cage and latterly Eno (who applies the same principles) do then apply some editorial control and 'tweak' the outcome. Cage was less editorial and quick happy for unpleasent or dissonant chances to occur. ===== kevin eden wmo, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk wmouk@yahoo.com http://wiremailorder.com/ "dreams that money can buy" Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:41:56 -0800 (PST) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] The Wire Without sounding like I am defendimng the Wire magazine (they have created some henious crimes at times) I don't believe that "one requires a Phd in Jazz or World Music in order to understand half of what they write about". I think what one requires is slightly wider spectrum of knowledge, and an openeness to want to know more about other musics than is required by the usual Sun readers. Ooops I mean NME and MM readers. ===== kevin eden wmo, po box 112, stockport, cheshire, sk3 9fd, uk wmouk@yahoo.com http://wiremailorder.com/ "dreams that money can buy" Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:43:32 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Off-topic CAGE > This in itself can lead to some horrendous results, > but Duchamp, Cage and latterly Eno (who applies the > same principles) do then apply some editorial control > and 'tweak' the outcome. > Right. Eno himself wrote the same on the back of one of his Ambient LP's (and I think that he also did have some experiments that didn't turn out quite well). Lots of what Cage did was heavily influenced by eastern philosophy (plus excessive mushrooms indulgence). Apart from treating any sound as music, he also tried to make music without the drama/narrative that characterises western music. Another very important aspect of Cage's work was chance. Even though jazz was already around and the concept of musical improvisation wasn't new, classical music didn't quite take to the idea of improvising. Cage's 'chance' music tried to imitate the way things happen in reality, whereas the jazz musicians relied on quite tight musical sets of rules when improvising. I think modern classicists like Cage, Stockhausen, Reich, etc.. still don't get the credit they deserve as to their influence on rock music since the 60's till now. Maybe that's why I consider Cage's music as more theory than actual composing - musicwise, most of his work doesn't appeal to me, but as far as ideas and ideology goes, I totally agree. Two questions: 1. Who was Duchamp? 2. does anyone know of that Cage tribute made in the 70's and released on one of Eno's Obscure records? It had people like Robert Wyatt, Carla Bley & Fred Frith in it. Anyone know if it was ever released on CD? giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:28:50 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] The Wire; Frequency Variation; Cage >OK there is always 'The Wire'....they mean well (and Wire issue was superb) but one requires a Phd in Jazz or World Music >in order to understand half of what they write about Really? I'm not an expert in anything to do w/ music, but I usually find it pretty readable. Then again, I only read what I'm interested in, so I suppose I always have some "background." "Frequency Variation" isn't much like "In the Shed" at all ... far less noisy. That being said, it will probably only appeal to those who liked Shed ... it still focuses on pure sound. Bringing us to Paul's avant gaurde dreams: just look unhappy. ;) More seriously, as with abstract painting, those who dislike avant gaurde tend to assume it's all just a big joke and that anyone could do it. This comes with the assumption that there's only one way to look at a painting or listen to sounds. I listen to John Cage quite a bit, and I really love his stuff. (No, really ... Honest!) But I don't listen to Cage or Bruce the same way I listen to Wire, The Beatles, etc. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:34:28 -0500 From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: OT: MM Dies, NME next? >OK there is always 'The Wire'....they mean well (and Wire issue was >superb) but one requires a Phd in Jazz or World Music in order to >understand half of what they write about Where can one get a Phd in World Music? I would love to get one! Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:33:38 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Mr Poppy Is this our Andrew Poppy? Andrew, is this any good? Will you give me a free copy if it is? POPPY, ANDREW Time At Rest Devouring Its Secret CD 7.99 Source Res. A 35 minute largely electronic piece with appreciative nods to Riley and Reich. The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:34:40 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees I always hated MM. It used to go for the lowest common denominator by almost always having a female peroxide blonde on the cover. I dread to think how many times that talentless cretin from Transvision Vamp was seen pouting at me from the newstand. Oh, and Tracy Primitive. Plus all their journos were frustrated and poor musicians e.g. Bob Stanley, that wanker out of Gay Dad and Chris Roberts - the man who owned Dedicated Records and they all used to write glowing reports of anything on their own bloody labels. If you read Chris Roberts' you'd think it was cool to live in a great big fuck off mansion in Rugby and have a heroin habit. Yeah, dead clever. Oh, and they championed the Cranes. Good riddance. John - --- MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Paul, > > << well i see today that monotony maker has folded ; > that smash hits format > was > going nowhere. another part of my history gone. >> > > Very sad. MM was the first music paper I read, as we > used to get it in the > school library (obviously some hep cat Jazz-dude > music teacher, or more > likley a finger-in-the-ear folkie), got a sub in the > 50s and it kept coming. > I used to share a typesetters with MM in the mid-80s > when I was a junior > sub-editor - our press days were the same - I used > to get fresh copies off > the press while waiting for our last few pages to > pass for press. Allan Jones > was editor and Steve Sutherland was dep ed I think. > > >>also select has been canned too , but that was > always pretty pants to be > honest.<< > > It was actually getting better. It tried too hard to > be a lads' mag though. > > >> so now its just the nme > , i guess nobody reads any more. p<< > > Well there's Q, Mojo, Uncut, Kerrang, MixMag, DJ, > Classic Rock, The Wire etc. > It's all niche marketing these days! > > >>ps just gave that bruce "frequency variation" a > spin. hmmmm..... >> > > I imagine that's a bit like Instant Shed. Only > longer... > > Mark Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:47:05 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees >Oh, and they championed the Cranes. >Good riddance. >John Hey, I like the Cranes! I can't be the only one on this list : ) Chris. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:50:02 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees John, I don't disagree with any of this - my nostalgia for MM dates back to the early '70s, and the realisation that there were such things as music papers. Also when Allan Jones was editor it gave NME a run for its money. especially when NME went all Kid Creole on our ass. But MM has been in slow decline since then, no mistake. Mark << I always hated MM. It used to go for the lowest common denominator by almost always having a female peroxide blonde on the cover. I dread to think how many times that talentless cretin from Transvision Vamp was seen pouting at me from the newstand. Oh, and Tracy Primitive. Plus all their journos were frustrated and poor musicians e.g. Bob Stanley, that wanker out of Gay Dad and Chris Roberts - the man who owned Dedicated Records and they all used to write glowing reports of anything on their own bloody labels. If you read Chris Roberts' you'd think it was cool to live in a great big fuck off mansion in Rugby and have a heroin habit. Yeah, dead clever. Oh, and they championed the Cranes. Good riddance. >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:15:36 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees > I always hated MM That's 2 down, 1 to go. We're getting there, slowly but surely!!! giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:09:26 -0800 (PST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees Sorry - I meant Cars. Surely nobody on here likes them. 8-) John - --- Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk wrote: > > > > >Oh, and they championed the Cranes. > > >Good riddance. > > >John > > Hey, I like the Cranes! I can't be the only one on > this list : ) > > Chris. Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:31:44 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees Mark wrote: Well there's Q, Mojo, Uncut, Kerrang, MixMag, DJ, Classic Rock, The Wire etc. It's all niche marketing these days! =============== Compared to music journalism in the US, you have a plethora of decent choices! Rolling stone is worthless, having descended into the journalistic equivalent of MTV, or as I like to put it, they're no longer a magazine about music, they've become a 'fashion advertisement delivery system'. Frankly, it's unreadable. I've purchased at least one copy of all of the magazines you've listed above, with the exception of Kerrang & Classic Rock because I don't care for heavy metal or classic rock. All of these magazines are infinitely more enjoyable than any American music magazine because IMO, they don't lose their sense of 'fun'. Even 'The Wire', which occasionally veers into the land of pretension, it still knows enough to have at least part of its' tongue planted in cheek. For my tastes, Q has been going great guns lately. In the last several issues I've picked up, there's been excellent articles on subjects ranging from the Beatles, to Death in Vegas. Sure, it includes crap about Destiny's Child, or Lil' Kim, etc., but there's always enough to justify the $8.00 it costs at my local Tower Records. The average issue provides hours of reading amusement. In contrast, I can skim through your average Rolling Stone in about 10 minutes. Their record reviews, which used to be the heart of the magazine, now appears almost as an afterthought... Cheers, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:47:00 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] colin ; the untold truth Excerpts from mail: 18-Dec-100 Re: [idealcopy] colin ; the.. by PaulRabjohn@aol.com > there's also another singer called colin newman , i think there's a > release as "colin newman & janet smith". maybe that's the choral music > fan not telling the whole truth on his cv as it'd make him look a bit > racey? p You're thinking of CHRIS Newman, who unfortunately performs as "C. Newman". I managed to get a hold of his record (with Janet Smith, allegedly the sister of Robert, but I don't believe that either) and even a live bootleg. It's not too bad. Poppy jazz. I put a scan of the album cover on the Wire Page for amusement. (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "I've been known to dabble." -007 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:03:16 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees > Compared to music journalism in the US, you have a plethora of decent > choices! > > Rolling stone is worthless, having descended into the journalistic > equivalent of MTV, or as I like to put it, they're no longer a magazine > about music, they've become a 'fashion advertisement delivery system'. > Frankly, it's unreadable. > Have you tried reading Spin lately? I used to love this magazine. Bob Guccione Jr.'s editiorial style was terrific, the articles were edgy, and the reviews were groovy. Then, Bob left and the magazine floundered. Now, it's owned by Vibe - the Hip-hop journal. It's basically turned into Vibe-lite(R). Unreadable. I've had a subscription for years - and for the first time, I'm not renewing. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:26:16 -0500 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (OT)save the trees I liked the Cranes too, especially their early funny ones before they started to make movies like Igmar Bergman (sorry, obscurist Woody Allen ref. there). No seriously, those early Cranes eps were cool, sort of scary atavitic primal thump. You never were sure if there was a bad trip going on in there. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:39:56 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Shed Frequencies Smell Death of the Music Press Quoth Mark B (on the subject of Mr Gilbert's archival 'Frequency Variation') >>>>>I imagine that's a bit like Instant Shed. Only longer... No, it's not. On the surface it might seem that way, but the intention behind it is really quite different. Even so playing both sides at the same time would probably be interesting... FV might seem like random doodling at first, but after several listens, I found some kind of odd pattern emerged (but patterns are everywhere...). Its actually quite intense and at high volume really gives yer speakers what for. It was in part a reaction to/against the sub pub rock guitar songs of George Gill. Instant Shed was quite a mellow listen and both sides were supposed to be played at the same time (instructions were to tape one side). It is a much more aesthetically and artistically congruent piece of work, which spins on its own axes, and is almost infinitely variable if boiled as per run-out groove instructions. I would say, however, that FV is a record for the person who has everything with Gilbert's name on it (which is probably less then 10% of those on this list). It's early oscillator recordings which predate Wire and what's really interesting is that it shows a direction Bruce wouldn't resume again until 'Small Electric Piece', which was probably regarded as a bit of an oddity at the time! Much like Joy Division's excellent 'As You Said'. Quoth Paul R >>>>>>there's also another singer called colin newman , i think there's a release as "colin newman & janet smith". Its Chris Newman who you're thinking of. He plays piano & composes. I do not particularly care for his music, although its listenable. The ignorant bastards at the Notting Hill Record & Tape Exchange insist on putting his records in the Wire section. Perhaps they only sell when they're mistaken for Colin... Quoth Paul R >>>>>so now its just the nme , i guess nobody reads any more. p What's the point? It's aimed at people half my age! 'The Wire' has been the only worthwhile music mag for about the last 3-4 years IMO. And I dropped out of university and have no phd's! :-) But at least every issue throws light on some interesting new music which is the whole point of reading these things. I suppose 'Mojo' and 'Record Collector' are acceptable aids for reminiscing about them good ol' days, but I certainly wouldn't pay to read them! Where's me pipe & slippers? Then Paul suggests that 'Q' review everything! How can any monthly possibly review everything that's released these days?!! Aside from the obligatory *Wire* this weekend I was listening to mostly recent releases from Cosmonauts Hail Satan, Faust, Ocsid, Dirty Three, Calla, Current Value, Hazard, Void, Anna Planeta, Sunroof, Denis Frajerman, Elecronicat, Thomas P. Heckman, elph, Thermal & Seofon, Orbitronik, DJ Fake, OST, Foehn, V/vm, Super Silent, Ornette Coleman, Steve Reich, John Cage, Joy Division, Laub, Aura, Toss (no really) - how much of this stuff is even mentioned in passing by the useless corporate press except for maybe JD & D3? Mediocrity Meter is dead! What a lovely Xmas present! It's 'quality of life' was lower than a legless dog with no nose for way too long!!! Haven't all its late 80's writers jumped ship to 'Uncut' where they still write about the 80's all the time? Now if only all the tedious corporate shmindie bands MeMker wrote about would curl up under the tree and pass away quietly... Actually I couldn't give two bees!! I'd rather keep the honey!!! And I'd rather make fun at yer than go to midnyte mass!!!! Don't start me off!!!!!! Aaaaaargh ya already did!!!!!!!!!!!!! Graeme ;-) ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:41:43 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Colin & Malka hit & run w/pudding fun!!! "James and Andy of V/Vm wake up one morning to find a lifetime supply of pudding in their cabinets, Andy's car is missing and neither can remember what happened last night. An answering machine message is left by their girlfriends, the twins, played by Mira Calix and Andrea Parker, bitching them out for the mess they made last night and how they forgot it was their anniversary. Now the two are screwed because they can't find their car with the anniversary gifts they bought for the girls. On their journey into the town Wendy Carlos tries to run over Andy, Colin Newman and Malka Spiegel try to run over James." The rest of this dubious movie review can be read on this week's 'Brain' - http://brainwashed.com/brain/ Lock up your hats! And ya better lock 'em tight when V/vm are around! Graeme ===== Cracked Machine webzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine "What one thinks of as extremes seldom are" :: BC Gilbert Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:16:26 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hindman Subject: [idealcopy] [OT - week o' music] Hey all~ I want to say that I have found some great music from the different comments from this group and have also been inspired to find a local musician who has offered to give me some pointers on computer composing! Currently, I listen to music at work more than anywhere else. I pack 20-25 CD's and listen to them while designing PCB's. I've always liked other people's lists, so without further ado... Here's my "top 25" for the week: Art of Noise - Who's Afraid of... Be-Bop Deluxe - Live in the Air Age Blue Oyster Cult - Agents of Fortune Colin Newman - A-Z Eno - Taking Tiger Mountain.. Fayman and Fripp - Temple in the Clouds The Fixx - Reach the Beach Front 242 - Reboot, Live '98 Garbage - Ver 2.0 Japan - Gentlemen Take Polaroids King Crimson - Construkction of Light Love and Rockets - Lift Machines of Loving Grace - Concentration Pink Floyd - Relics Residents - Residue Deux Roxy Music - 1st album Sisters of Mercy - First Last and Always Skinny Puppy - Rabies Snakefinger - Manual of Errors Split Enz - The Living Enz Southern Culture on the Skids - Liquored Up and Lacquered Down Talking Heads - Fear of Music Paul Thorn - Hammer and Nail Type O Negative - Bloody Kisses UK - Concert Classics, Vol 4 Tom Waits - Mule Variations Wire - The Ideal Copy Xorcist - Soul Reflection If this is TOO far off topic, let me know and I won't do this again. Otherwise, suggest, share opinions and let me know what you think! Rick Hindman PS - If all works out well, I hope to have some music actually done by the end of January. I hope that won't be too late. Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:01:53 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Shed Frequencies Smell Death of the Music Press Graeme, << I'd rather keep the honey!!! >> That'd be the Madman's Honey, presumably ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:18:35 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: duchamp -OT...only slightly if you ask me :o) In a message dated 12/18/0 7:40:49 AM, giluz@nettalk.com writes: > > >1. Who was Duchamp? 20th cent artist, most closely associated with the dadaists/surrealists. he was a fascinating artist, pioneering the use of found objects to create art (he called them readymades). like cage, he relied on chance operations to create some of his work as well. and like wire, he doesn't really fit into any one category or style. the philadelphia museum of art has a fairly large collection of his work. while trying to look up the url for you, i came across this site: Click Here: Marcel Duchamp World Community http://www.marcelduchamp.net/exhibition/exhibition.htm looks pretty cool. enjoy, paul c.d. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #377 *******************************