From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #367 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, December 9 2000 Volume 03 : Number 367 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re:Edinburgh/12XU [Howard Spencer ] RE: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud ["Ciscon, Ray" ] RE: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] Re: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] RE: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud ["Ciscon, Ray" ] RE: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud [Paul Pietromonaco ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 12:43:56 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re:Edinburgh/12XU Have a good one to all who are going tonight. As I am not, it will almost certainly be a blinder, with surprises in store (songs off Manscape? Eardrum Bingos? Solo sets?, Jimmy the goose?, new stuff?? electronics??). Got the single this morning - like Paul R., I'm very keen on the full-on version, not sure about the other. I can't believe all you people with no gramophones -what do you do with all your vinyl?! Maybe you just don't have any, but I'm certainly not prepared to repurchase everything I have on CD, no way. In the case of 12XU, the format certainly suits the material. Btw you can order swim stuff from post-everything over the phone. I'm curious about this operation - had pleasing visions of talking to someone who was sitting in Colin's front room, attic or conservatory. Didn't like to ask though. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 10:23:55 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud Howard wrote: I can't believe all you people with no gramophones -what do you do with all your vinyl?! Maybe you just don't have any, but I'm certainly not prepared to repurchase everything I have on CD, no way. In the case of 12XU, the format certainly suits the material. ======================= Howard, I'm one of those people who gave up the ghost on gramophones and victrola's of all types around the turn of the 90's. I was fortunate enough, or poor enough, not to have been able to afford a HUGE amount of vinyl records when I was a youngster, and I only went about repurchasing the 'good' vinyl records I owned, i.e. Kraftwerk's 'Computer World' - definitely repurchase on CD, Peter Frampton's 'Frampton Comes Alive' - absolutely NO NEED to repurchase! It's against my religion, as a devout techno-gadget-geek, to purchase anything on degenerative media, i.e. vinyl, tape, etc., when non-degenerative media (or at least much longer-lived media), like CD, DVD, etc. are available. I want a CD version of 'Twelve Times You'!!!!! Cheers, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** Carthago delenda est. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:38:37 +0000 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: RE: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud >Howard, I'm one of those people who gave up the ghost on gramophones and >victrola's of all types around the turn of the 90's. I was fortunate enough, >or poor enough, not to have been able to afford a HUGE amount of vinyl >records when I was a youngster, and I only went about repurchasing the >'good' vinyl records I owned, i.e. Kraftwerk's 'Computer World' - definitely >repurchase on CD, Peter Frampton's 'Frampton Comes Alive' - absolutely NO >NEED to repurchase! Ditto. I too never had a huge vinyl collection so switching to CD wasn't a problem. I still own a few bits and bobs. The last record I actually bought was Fad Gadget: Under The Flag #3.99. I probaly buy 6-10 records a year. I would never get rid of my turntable (not yet anyway). >It's against my religion, as a devout techno-gadget-geek, to purchase >anything on degenerative media, i.e. vinyl, tape, etc., when >non-degenerative media (or at least much longer-lived media), like CD, DVD, >etc. are available. True. There are exceptions though. "Heavy" vinyl is available now. In fact this week John Barry-Game Of Death S/T and John Carpenter-Escape From New York was released on "heavy" vinyl. I'm not recommending these but this format produces excellent clarity and lasts a lot longer than normal vinyl. And who can remember the "Made By PDO" CD scandal? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:29:09 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud > non-degenerative media (or at least much longer-lived media), like CD, DVD, > etc. are available. > Hi Ray, Actually, it's funny you should mention that. Believe it or not, that's one of the reasons I kept my turntable around. I started having the occasional problem with laser media degenerating. Records are a fixed decay - I knew that if I kept my stylus in good condition, and kept my records clean, etc. the lifetime of vinyl was pretty good. Plus, vinyl's shelf life (if not played) was near infinite. Whereas, with Laser media, I've had some problems. I have over 1000 Laserdiscs and 1000 CDs. Around 1987, I had a batch of LaserDiscs rot on me, after about 3 years of just sitting there. Then one or two CDs as well. (New Order's Technique, for instance. I kept it, just to prove to people it could happen). The insiduous thing about CD and LD rot is that it happens without you doing anything. With LaserDisc, you can see it happen, so you can back it up (to VHS tape) before the picture becomes totally unwatchable. With CD rot (usually caused by printing inks that are out of Phillips' standards leaching thru the laquer layer and oxidizing the aluminum) you don't know it's happening, due to the digital error correction, until the disc is unplayable. They manufacturers have pretty much figured out what caused the original LD rot, and taken steps to insure that it doesn't happen in CD/DVD. But, back in 1984 when I started getting into laser, it wasn't such a sure thing. And, in the end, it was worth it to keep my turntable around - so I can play the "twelve times you" single. (^_^) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 11:54:02 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud Paul wrote: Actually, it's funny you should mention that. Believe it or not, that's one of the reasons I kept my turntable around. I started having the occasional problem with laser media degenerating. Records are a fixed decay - I knew that if I kept my stylus in good condition, and kept my records clean, etc. the lifetime of vinyl was pretty good. Plus, vinyl's shelf life (if not played) was near infinite. Whereas, with Laser media, I've had some problems. I have over 1000 Laserdiscs and 1000 CDs. Around 1987, I had a batch of LaserDiscs rot on me, after about 3 years of just sitting there. Then one or two CDs as well. (New Order's Technique, for instance. I kept it, just to prove to people it could happen). The insiduous thing about CD and LD rot is that it happens without you doing anything. With LaserDisc, you can see it happen, so you can back it up (to VHS tape) before the picture becomes totally unwatchable. With CD rot (usually caused by printing inks that are out of Phillips' standards leaching thru the laquer layer and oxidizing the aluminum) you don't know it's happening, due to the digital error correction, until the disc is unplayable. They manufacturers have pretty much figured out what caused the original LD rot, and taken steps to insure that it doesn't happen in CD/DVD. But, back in 1984 when I started getting into laser, it wasn't such a sure thing. And, in the end, it was worth it to keep my turntable around - so I can play the "twelve times you" single. (^_^) ========== Paul, Laser rot on LaserDisc's is/was a concern , but I've never heard of any 'major' problems with laser rot on CD's. I've been pretty lucky, I guess, because I've got over 100 laserdiscs, and have yet to get hit with laser rot. I've never had any problems with CD's either... I shudder to think of the type of havoc laser rot would deal to DVD's! The data is, in many cases, so highly compressed on DVD's that even a small corruption would be disastrous. Cheers, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** Carthago delenda est. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 14:29:31 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE: [idealcopy] No Gramophones Aloud >Paul, > >Laser rot on LaserDisc's is/was a concern >, but I've never heard of any 'major' problems with laser rot on CD's. > Yes, thankfully, CDs use a different "plastic" than Laser. (I forget right now what LD uses, but it's not the Polycarbonate that CD/DVD use) Also, they don't sandwich the halves together with glue like LD. It was theorized that the glue used to sandwich the LD halves together might have been hydroscopic, causing water to "seep" into the aluminum layer, and oxidize the surfaces. Most of the CD problems have been with either 1) Printing inks that seep thru the laquer sealing layer - this was the case with Warner Brothers discs from Discovery systems or 2) The use of silver in the aluminum mix that tarnishes due to CD booklet "outgassing" - this is the infamous PDO problem. I think I've had one Discovery systems disc die, a number of CD Video discs die (Phillips again - bad coloring added to the Polycarbonate) and so far, no PDO problems >I've been pretty lucky, I guess, because I've got over 100 laserdiscs, and >have yet to get hit with laser rot. > The main batch of laser rot occurred in the years 1981-1984 with discs from Pioneer. If you have any from that time period, you might want to take a look. Otherwise, the only other discs that decay are from Sony/DADC. They still periodically die - even today. I've had an Edward Scissorhands LD die recently, and the bonus disc in The War Of The Roses (damn - that's the main reason to get the set, too. Danny DeVito gives you a custom movie with 30 minutes of outtakes.) I've even seen it present on new copies of discs like The Net or Feeling Minnesota. In other words, check out any newer LDs that you have from Tri-Star/Columbia or CBS Fox. Sony, for some reason, doesn't seem to believe this condition exists, but they will replace defective discs. (^_^) >I've never had any problems with CD's either... > You probably won't, either, unless you have a few old Warner titles with custom color labels, or any of the European silver PDO discs. CD has been an extremely stable medium. These cases are the exception, rather than the rule. >I shudder to think of the type of havoc laser rot would deal to DVD's! The >data is, in many cases, so highly compressed on DVD's that even a small>corruption would be disastrous. > And, the beauty is that a DVD could be rotting, but you wouldn't know it, until it was unplayable. That's what happened to that Discovery systems CD of mine. Fine, fine, fine, then one day - WHAMMO! (^_^). White noise static. It took me completely by surprise. At least, since LD has analog video, you can watch it happen. (Look for many "colored dots" where there weren't any before.) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #367 *******************************