From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #313 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, October 15 2000 Volume 03 : Number 313 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] What do you like? ["Stephen JC Sheen" ] [idealcopy] Desmond Simmons [Wireviews ] [idealcopy] Mystery Wire song [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] Re: [idealcopy] What do you like? [Nik ] [idealcopy] Re: IdealCopy OT: Magazine and Wire ["ian barrett" ] [idealcopy] back on topic again - actual BCG content [Jeffrey with 2 Fs J] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:50:23 +0100 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] What do you like? A practical test of funkiness would be the extent to which Wire might have been sampled and fed back into MOBO, rather than appropriated by Elastica and Menswear. You could get interesting loops out of "Lowdown" and "Eardrum Buzz". Are there any actual examples, or is it just Kraftwerk who have managed this sort of influence over MOBO ? << I find that a lot of Wire songs have quite a funky backbone to them. 'Lowdown' brings back memories of 'Papa was a rolling stone' and 'I should have known better' can be interpreted as 'Get up off that thang' backwards... Nik >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 07:33:45 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #312 okay, just got the digest and fuck is it hard to read.......... TOO MUCH INFO! shop@wiremailorder.com http://wiremailorder.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 07:34:59 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #312 >>So why don't you say something about MP3 instead of >>complaining? dude, I brought the topic up... c ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:02:52 EDT From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: (0T) Re Non wire origins. >Any suggestions for current "world music"? Someone already suggested Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan - go for it. I recently discovered Samite (www.samite.com). Don't buy the latest album that came out on Windham Hill - it's way overproduced to make the sound accessible for the masses, go for the earlier records on Shanachie label. Oh, and don't miss Kriwi and Palats? They are two great modern folk acts from my native Belarus. Palats is more techno-ish, comparable to Deep Forest. Kriwi (a Palats offshoot with female vocals) went from techno-folk to less electronical, sometimes plain acoustic folk music (mind you, this has NOTHING to do with American or English folk music!). The recent lineup, I read, includes a Kurdistani percussionist, so it's gotta be even more interesting, but I haven't heard any songs recorded with him yet. I've got two albums for sale at my online store (www.belmusic.net). They might have some MP3 tracks at http://www.belpunkt.de/kriwi/index.html . Actually, I believe they currently play more in Germany than in my native Belarus so you German listmembers are lucky! Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:22:42 EDT From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Detroit Rock City > Pere Ubu will be in Detroilet on the 19th of Oct. I'm going to a Boston show tomorrow. [This year is great: I saw Vopli Vidoplyasova, Wire, Cure, Auctyon and now I am going to see Pere Ubu! The only thing I am missing is the Fall :)] >If you're into Gwar at all I heard two albums. Kind of (perversely) enjoyed "America Must Be Destroyed". Disliked "Hell-O" at the very first listen. Never saw them live - - from what I read it might be worth going. I l-u-v Green Jelly (who are influenced by Gwar a lot) though - do you know if these guys are still going? >they are playing on the 28th,i think. I am afraid I'll be leaving on 27th :( Not sure though >If you need anymore info,let me know and i'll try to >get the local hipster paper with the concert listings in it. If you could find the link that would be great! Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://www.belmusic.net/ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:56:10 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Detroit Rock City Syarzhuk, << I'm gonna be in Detroit in the end of this month. Any suggestions on which bands to see, which clubs to attend, which music stores to visit are more than welcome. >> I go to Detroit at least twice a year and I know it well. The city centre is pretty dull (apart from the bars and restaurants around Greek Town) and most of the shops/venues are outside the centre. The main downtown venue for touring bands is St Andrews Hall, which is pretty good - gothic interior and small. Saw the Fall there in 1993... You need to get a copy of Metro Times as soon as you arrive. It's a free listings magazine available from most record stores and sometimes from street dispensers. The best record store I know is Desirable Discs 2 on Michigan Avenue, Dearborn. Excellent used selection, with masses of vinyl downstairs. You could also try Dearborn Music, on the same road, about 2 miles further out of town. There are some other good shops in Royal Oak, which is about 10 miles north of the city centre, including Repeat the Beat and Off the Record. Royal Oak is a happening town, with lots of bars and restaurants, many of which open late. If you have a car (and you need a car in Detroit. There is no public transport to speak of and taxis are few and far between. Avoid walking, especially downtown, though it's safer than it was a few years ago). You could try driving to Ann Arbor about 30 miles to the west. YThis is a college town (Univ of Michigan). It has at least three really good record shops (though I can't remember the names off hand). Have fun! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:58:01 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: P.J. Harvey (was The Fifth Peel Session) << Hmmm. That's interesting. "Is This Desire?" is actually one of my favorite records of hers. I loved "Dry", respected "Rid Of Me" & "Four Track Demos" and found "To Bring You My Love" fairly unmemorable, and predictable, except for Down by the Water. >> Pretty much my feelings about PJ. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] [off-topic] "World" music Kevin Eden wrote: 3) Funny how all the discussion points about non-Wire music are about music of a white origin. What about MOBO (Music of Black Origin) and I dont mean the inspid pop crap that awards are given for every year in the UK. - --- Well, I guess it's mostly due to exposure. I took my first trip to WoMaD this year and was really amazed by the whole thing. Over the last year many of the albums I found on my constant playlist were not (and still are not) of white origin, such as Joi's One and One is One (best album of '99 in my opinion), Telek, ADF, Afro-Celt Sound System, State of Bengal, etc... Shame 90% of them are impossible to get hold of unless you know about them (in other words, it's not something you're going to stumble across in your typical store...) Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:43:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Desmond Simmons Syarzhuk Kazachenka wrote: >My, my, don't we feel righteous here? Not really. Just stating an opinion... >50% of the tracks which you think are >"atmospheric/interesting" I felt they are >pretentious and overproduced, >while the "normal setup" versions are very good >punk/post-punk tunes. I guess it depends on your point of view, really. To be frank, even taking the "normal" set-up as it stands, I thought the output was pretty piss-poor. Counterpane is the real case in point -- I found the live version terrible. In terms of production, many of the Dome-influenced takes got to the centre of 'whatever the track was about' in my view. Yes, sometimes it didn't work, sometimes things were a little too skewed (although I would not say overproduced), but by and large their involvement took what would have been a fairly standard punk thing and moshed it into something that was a bit different. >Take a "normal" person (that means someone who >never heard Wire) and let him/her compare the >versions of "Gymnast" to understand what I mean Erm... perhaps you should read my original post again. I conceded the fact that the Soft Option versions of the tracks were very good, which includes Gymnast. The same is true for the Man the Lifeboats version that band played. However, the other "normal" tracks come off as very ordinary punky songs, and didn't do anything for me. Taken after the Dome-produced versions, they seemed all the worse. As for non-Wire fans, those that have heard me playing the Simmons album in the office pretty much hate all of it, *especially* the punk tracks! :-) Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 17:53:30 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: [idealcopy] Mystery Wire song Had a listen, even though my PC cuts out every minute or two on those 'I Am Wired' gigs The song, bizarrely, reminds me a little of 'Monkeys' by Echo and the Bunnymen. Maybe you should ask Colin or Graham if they remember it? The version of 'Boiling Boy' later in that gig is well worth a listen! Lock up your hats! The Fly in the Ointment ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:53:46 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (0T) Re Non wire origins. > Any suggestions for current "world music"? Try Nusrat Ali Khan ( spelling ??? ). Very interesting pakistani musician ... Frank /////// i was really disappointed on a recent trip to france to hear virtually no french african music around ; a few years ago it seemed everywhere. maybe they've all got into hip-hop ; that killed off bhangra too as i recall.p ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:04:21 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] OFF topic but latterly ON topic then OF... << PJ Harvey seems to be heading towards the middle of the road, but a couple of songs have been good enough to have made it onto 'Is This Desire?' He has PJ Harvey playing live on the show 26/10. >> ///// i thought the new pj single was pretty good , definitely lighter than ITD , but then i think she'd be topping herself if she'd gone much further down that path. i did like ITD but bout time for a change maybe? MOR ; i can't see her doing that. must remember to tape that peel show ; looking forward to the tour too. 5th peel session is of course a fab idea , shame the 80's line-up did only the one as i thought that turned out pretty well. interesting to see what one of those bbc house producers would have made of wir.p ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:23:59 +0100 From: Nik Subject: Re: [idealcopy] What do you like? >A practical test of funkiness would be the extent to which Wire might have >been sampled and fed back into MOBO, rather than appropriated by Elastica >and Menswear. I can only speak from my experience, but I don't think they were ever that well known in the US. > You could get interesting loops out of "Lowdown" and "Eardrum >Buzz". Eardrum Buzz??? Are you sure? >Are there any actual examples, or is it just Kraftwerk who have >managed this sort of influence over MOBO ? Granted, none that I know of. But I stopped living in the US permanently and semi-permanently 5 years ago, so I wouldn't know for certain what's happened inbetween. However, the current tour might have given new inputs to a lot of people. > Nik ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:24:42 +0100 From: Nik Subject: Re: [idealcopy] What do you like? Mark, > ><< On topic - and I'd be interested in whether any of you share this > opinion - I find that a lot of Wire songs have quite a funky backbone to > them. 'Lowdown' brings back memories of 'Papa was a rolling stone' and > 'I should have known better' can be interpreted as 'Get up off that > thang' backwards... >> > >I don't really see it - Wire is pretty much MOWO! I'm sure it has to do with where you're coming from musically. As someone whose first passion was soul and funk, I am certainly more inclined to look for similarities in other music I like than someone who grew up with, f. ex., classical music or straightforward rock. I'm convinced the funky side is there, but it's very subtle a lot of times (Then again, IMO, it jumps right at you in the above mentioned songs, and imagine a piece like 'footsi footsi' being given the Nile Rogers treatment => 4th of July... ;-) If you visualise a Wire song as layer upon layer of structures, then the 3rd or 4th layer - or both - contain/s the funkiness. As far as the style of singing of all three vocalists goes, however, I agree with you completely: It's very much MOWO. Almost regrettably so. As is their restrained way of 'performing'. Very earnest, very self- centred, with the occasional exception of Mr. Lewis aiming at something like communication with the audience, and the less convincing 'I-can't- dance' routines of Mr. Newman. As bold as they were when it came to experimenting with sounds, they never ventured beyond the well-explored realms of (tongue-in-cheek-) boredom, anger, despair and straightforward telling where the vocals are concerned. So, no, I don't expect them to break out in big, heartfelt smiles and come up with the most interesting live version of 'I feel good' any time soon, but one can always dream ;-) Especially since they have a singer with one of the most beautiful voices in contemporary music on board in the person of Mr. L. >Although the version of Go >Ahead they played at the Garage was pretty funky..... Oh, go ahead ;-) Another story of the wonderful Garage performances that makes me wanna give myself a nice whacking for not having been more patient with them this time around. I was so disappointed with their continued lack of stage presence at the RFH (the same grumpy faces as in the Rockpalast video, the same lack of communication, only 20-odd years later, Immersion with their backs to the audience, I mean, come on...) that I chose not see them at the Garage or in the US. That said, I realise that they were probably concentrating like hell in order to get their songs right, but I'd have preferred the occasional chord/timing fuck-up if the vibes had been right. For me, for now, they still work better from their records than live, which is sad, in a way. Nik ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:06:50 +0100 From: "ian barrett" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: IdealCopy OT: Magazine and Wire - ----- Original Message ----- From: > //// agreed completely ; colin always comes over as having a wry smile at > things. > I've found the 'wry smile' that permeates Colin Newman's (live) performances a little overdone at times. I'm maybe reading it wrong, but it *suggests* he's not completely convinced by or committed to what he's doing (which I'm pretty sure can't be the case). I wasn't close enough to the front at RFH to note if this was still the persona, but it's irritated the hell out of non-Wire fans I know who've seen them live in the past. Did anybody on the list see any of the live work surrounding Commercial Suicide/It Seems? Was he less arch in his presentation of this work? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 21:27:23 +0100 From: Nik Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (0T) Re Non wire origins. >/////// i was really disappointed on a recent trip to france to hear >virtually no french african music around ; a few years ago it seemed >everywhere. maybe they've all got into hip-hop ; that killed off bhangra too >as i recall.p I remember Carte de Séjour and their solo offspring Rachid Taha. And then, of course, there's the former Cheb - now plain - Khaled, who used to come up with interesting Heinz 57s in the vein of rai, and an a list of commercial producers/collaborators up until the rather abysmal single 'Aisha' - but still, if you're into raw, sweet emotions and great live shows, he's there among the best. And way back when, there were the DM emulators of Indochine with their 3ième sexe...oh well...not folky, definitely...so axeman axel bauer and the nightingales charles trenet and tino rossi do not count either, ah s'pose ;-) Nik (counting gray hairs, oops, that's grey in britspelling, innit?) Hasta la victoria siempre, nonetheless ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 00:52:08 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Frank_J=FCrgen_W=F6rner?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (0T) Re Non wire origins. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (0T) Re Non wire origins. > > > > Any suggestions for current "world music"? > > Try Nusrat Ali Khan ( spelling ??? ). > Very interesting pakistani musician ... > > Frank > /////// i was really disappointed on a recent trip to france to hear > virtually no french african music around ; a few years ago it seemed > everywhere. maybe they've all got into hip-hop ; that killed off bhangra too > as i recall.p Yes, "national" hip-hop is the "biggest" thing nowadays over here ... I, living in Bavaria, have absolutely no interest in this kind of music. German rap is just adolescent street-talk of sex and crime or nonsense. About France: Air and Mirwais are big at the moment ... while I really liked "Moon Safari" I have not much knowledge about their new output. regards, Frank PS: This list made me re-listen to my old Magazine and Ultravox albums ... haven't listened to them for years ... ;-)) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 00:58:47 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Frank_J=FCrgen_W=F6rner?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Fifth Peel Session (initially OFF topic but latterly ON topic then OFF again right at the end) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graeme Rowland" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 1:31 AM Subject: [idealcopy] The Fifth Peel Session (initially OFF topic but latterly ON topic then OFF again right at the end) > > Eyes Steady and Peeled for old Achim Reichel records, > Even a bit of Achim Wollscheid will do! Hi, I'm REALLY surprised seeing Achim Reichel mentioned on the Wire list ...!?!?!? This songwriter is unknown to 99.9 percent of the music-hearing population over here in Germany. If you're interested is some older records of him I might check some stores in Nuremberg. Just mail me a line ... regards, Frank ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 03:34:31 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: [idealcopy] Gawd help us! > Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:12:23 +0100 > From: "Wilson, Paul" > Subject: [idealcopy] Off topic (isn't most of it?) > > > Tim Robinson, the line "personally i find this list a good thing to do when > someone is paying me to be doing something else." was NOT written by me! I > was merely using someone else's quote in my e-mail. So don't start having a > go at me for wasting public money!!! Comments like yours really do piss me > off. I try to introduce a discussion to see whether other people get a bit > annoyed at the volume of "off-topic" emails, and some people just start > having a dig on a personal level. I'm sorry I misquoted you and I'm sorry you took offence as none was taken. Thats just my sense of humour, I was only having a laugh I didn't mean anything personal. > Just to clarify things - I get into work at 7.30 and work until 5. As we > work a flexitime scheme, it doesn't matter WHEN I do my work, as long as I > do the required number of hours per week - which I do. In fact, as I am in > the office when I am not technically working, I often end up answer > telephone calls and doing other work-related stuff in MY OWN TIME. - ---snip----- I'm sure you work very hard. Paul, just my sense of humour running away with itself. I still think you should read up on Nettiquette.....all those capital letters hurt my eyes man! > Giluz - please don't introduce political debate like that. This is certainly > not the place to discuss Palestinian issues. Or perhaps the list would think > it is!??? Come on Paul! Now you're out of order. Are you the f**kin list moderator all of a sudden or what? Giluz wasn't trying to start a political debate, That scary shit is going on right on his doorstep. I'm sure we can allow him to let off steam can't we? OK this isn't the place for an in depth analysis of the situation but this is something pretty horrible that is happening to a nice lad who is part of this little community of 100 or so on this list. I'm sure I speak for the majority of this list that we are all thinking of Giluz right now and anyone else who gets caught in the middle of mindless, ugly violent shite anywhere in the world. Bit like Bury on a Saturday night for example, eh Paul?! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 02:23:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: [idealcopy] back on topic again - actual BCG content On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, [iso-8859-1] Graeme Rowland wrote: > Charles Snider said - > When Bruce G had an Invisible Jukebox sprung on him by > the Wire mag about 5 years ago, they played him Oval. > They also played him Joy Division, Gyorgy Ligeti, > Pierre Henry, the Hafler Trio, Morton Feldman, > Einheit/Brotzmann, Aphex Twin, Pink Floyd, Lee Ranaldo > and (gulp!) Elastica, but sadly no Shakin' Stevens. Would this happen to be online? Or at any rate, does anyone know the specific issue, so I could look it up? I'd be curious to read this! Thanks. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::Sting, where is thy death?:: __Alan Gray_ ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #313 *******************************