From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #310 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, October 12 2000 Volume 03 : Number 310 Today's Subjects: ----------------- I had an idea, too [Paul Pietromonaco ] Re: ebay latest [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Kraftwerk were driving [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Off Topic and On ["wiremailorder.com" ] Re: I had an idea, too/ re:OT lists [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Kraftwerk [BillyD ] Re: Hannett [george.m.hook@ac.com] Re: Off Topic and On [george.m.hook@ac.com] Re: Off Topic and On [Tim Robinson ] Re: I had an idea, too/ re:OT lists [Paul Pietromonaco ] Re: Eric Random & Cabaret Voltaire [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: I had an idea, too/ re:OT lists [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Hannett [MarkBursa@aol.com] Des Simmonds (on topic!) [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: tunnel section amublance (was:Hannett) [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Off Topic [MarkBursa@aol.com] [none] [owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] Re: Off Topic and On [Katherine Pouliot ] Re: Cale [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: your mail [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: Kraftwerk - that'd be not Wire... [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: Des Simmonds (on topic!) [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 14:22:12 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: I had an idea, too ...but my message seems to have vanished into the ozone. On another list I'm a member of, we preface off topic posts with the term [OFF TOPIC] or [NON WIRE]. This seems better than splitting the list into two, to my way of thinking. What do people think about this? Cheers, Paul *********************************************************** Brain: "Pinky, Are You Pondering What I'm Pondering?" Pinky: "I think so Brain, but can the gummy worms really live in peace with the marshmallow chips?" Paul Pietromonaco Test Engineer - Reflection X WRQ, Inc. E-Mail: paulp@wrq.com *********************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:38:04 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: ebay latest >>sad to see the copy of the des simmons lp up for $5 didn't get a single bid , thought somebody might have had a go for that money. looks like the bottom could be dropping out of the desmond market maybe? pre-wmo i actually paid about a tenner for both that and the michael o'shea lp on the principle that i wouldn't get to hear them otherwise , must say "penguin island" never did much for me. p >> I actually bought it when it came out! A couple of good tracks - the ones he did live with CN in '81. Must give it a spin again. O'Shea is surprisingly good! Mark ///////there's something just not right about that album , it never quite got there for me. i think the best track is the demo done with colin,p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:45:36 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: Kraftwerk were driving can i just make it clear that no way was i in favour of mr numan. just that it seemed to me back then he opened some doors that some much cooler types were only too happy to run through. of course he's seen as a joke now and i'm all for that. sorry i just can't see ultravox as anything other than copyists , they lurched thru endless derivative phases and i can't see any merit there at all. and i still think "ghosts of princes in towers" was a classic single , by far the peak of midge's career. his tracks on the lp stink , but some of the matlock/new ones are goodish. must go get some more kraftwerk , i only have some odd bits. p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:11:49 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: Re: Off Topic and On Not that I'm condoning it in the least, but if there wasn't "off topic" then there wouldn't be a list! Jeszs, when the last time someone said something Wire?!? and.... that hadn't been said before?!?! Thus, my submission to Malka's project sums up the Wire content of this list - nothing! But you know, looking at the last few digests, the most traffic is when the topic is THE FUTURE OF THE LIST! Man, what boring crap! the MP3 topic - one that is rather current - lasted less than a digest. Fucking STYX vs ELO las longer!!!! Hey Miles... capitulate! yes course, we can always un-subscribe..... ~ No one heard of Achim Reichel & Machines? Listening to Die Gruene Reise, I'd think Colin may have heard it - or at least Mike Thorne. consider it's a 1971 record...... Achim's "echo guitar" is very post punk; very "fish" like. He's gone on to produce a lot, and I think he's something of a German Phil Collins (well, maybe not that bad), but very pop-ular, actor usw... CHECK IT OUT EXPAND YOUR HORIZONS! ITS WAY COOLER THAN OVAL!!!! c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:16:10 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: I had an idea, too/ re:OT lists In a message dated 10/11/0 5:36:43 PM, paulp@wrq.com writes: > >On another list I'm a member of, we preface off topic posts with the >term [OFF TOPIC] or [NON WIRE]. > >This seems better than splitting the list into two, to my way of >thinking. >What do people think about this? the advantage of the 2 lists is for those who do not wish to receive any OT posts. they can unsubscribe from the OT list. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:45:07 -0700 (PDT) From: BillyD Subject: Kraftwerk I first heard Kraftwerk when I was 12. Our music teacher played Autobahn in class. That was in 1977 and I never forgot it until I found it later on. My next purchase was the Pocket Caculator 7" in the clear plastic sleeve. Since then, I've been hooked. I still play them like their records are new. I have an extensive collection of Kraftwerk and I would recommend buying the original releases in German. They sound much better in their native tongue. Stay away from the bootlegs. Many are really bad remixes or horrible live recordings. I have recently been buying all the old seven inch singles I can find on Ebay. And they are quite cheap. ===== . ./\/\/\. [ . . ] /\ -- -Get Well Sammy! (R)SOT Ltd. http://depechemode.acmecity.com/freestate/54 http://www.fortunecity.com/uproar/mental/111/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:49:09 -0500 From: george.m.hook@ac.com Subject: Re: Hannett Hannett was responsible for the production on Joy Division's "Unknown Pleasures," breaking glass, distant sirens, Ian's claustrophically-impaired voice? It was a masterpiece. Then, he did "Closer"? Great producer. I was mistaken earlier: Martin Rushent produced the Buzzcocks and Pete Shelley's solo albums. Another great producer. George ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:55:49 -0500 From: george.m.hook@ac.com Subject: Re: Off Topic and On Well, being a Wire fan makes me automatically a fan of all music of a similar genre, so I don't see where I am particularly going "off-topic." These discussions enhance my appreciation of Wire, and I would guess that Colin, Graham et al don't spend their whole day talking just Wire. Although the discussions are going to, ultimately, influence Wire ... and are thus, Wire-related. (How's that for circular reasoning?) Sure would like to hear those Albini sessions, though ... as would all Chicago Wire fans, I would imagine. George ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:05:43 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: Re: Off Topic and On Paul Wilson, leave it out....quit flaming the list, if you've nothing interesting to contribute then don't post. Anyway, at 3.15 in the afternoon you should be serving the Council Taxpaying citizens of Bury, not surfing the net! :) I vote to keep things as they are. I've been really enjoying the off topic stuff this week. The Nico/Alan Wise stuff was fascinating. I was guilty of a bit of off topic posting with my Anti-Moby rant....but I got an e-mail from a certain well known 'Bastard' congratulating me on my post....so there. I guess the one thing I do agree with is that we need to take care with Subject names and people are *still* re-posting full text in their replies.....you're a lazy bunch out there!! :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:27:58 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: I had an idea, too/ re:OT lists >>On another list I'm a member of, we preface off topic posts with the >>term [OFF TOPIC] or [NON WIRE]. >> >>This seems better than splitting the list into two, to my way of >>thinking. >>What do people think about this? > >the advantage of the 2 lists is for those who do not wish to receive any OT >posts. they can unsubscribe from the OT list. > And, the advantages for the [OFF TOPIC] header is that they can safely delete the posts without reading them. And, it doesn't fragment the list community by creating a competing list. Sorry - I'm not much in favor of splitting the list, personally. (;_;) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:52:55 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Eric Random & Cabaret Voltaire Sean, << Eric plays on the 2nd half of CV's "2x45" LP from '82. He also played the same pieces with them live as "The Pressure Company". But when I saw them at The Venue in June '82, he and the Bedlamites were supporting, and the Cabs then played without him. No doubt you knew that anyway, but just in case....<< Well, I couldn't quite remember whether or not - and I couldn't be bothered to look :-) I was at that Venue gig too...very good Cabs set. I taped it too.... I think I saw them three times on that tour...for me, that was the Cabs at the peak of their powers (between 2x45 and Crackdown). I'd forgotten that Ramsden was the support that night - I remember seeing him play in Stanley Park in Blackpool (with ACR/Sec25 etc) and at Rafters in Manchester, again supporting ACR I think. Might have been Young Marble Giants. >> P.S. I missed the Crispies' gig in Manchester last year too. Long way to go for a Friday night with nowhere to stay. Heard the recording of it ? >> Yep, and pretty good it is for a band that hadn't played for so long. Only the bassist is still playing regularly...the drummer hadn't played for 5 years and the guitarist for 10. They even did some of the more electronic late-period stuff.... I wish they'd taken it further. They have so much good unreleased material they could do a "new" album tomorrow - but probably couldn't justify it financially unfortunately. If I'd known about it I'd have driven up and stopped in a motel or something. But I had no idea it was on. Another reason why this list should go off-topic from time to time! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:54:58 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: I had an idea, too/ re:OT lists Paul, Trouble with splitting the list is that some of the off-topic posts suddenly veer back on topic... i really think the best way is to flag up with OT and then get the emails not the digest so you can delete the OT ones if you want... Mark << > >On another list I'm a member of, we preface off topic posts with the >term [OFF TOPIC] or [NON WIRE]. > >This seems better than splitting the list into two, to my way of >thinking. >What do people think about this? the advantage of the 2 lists is for those who do not wish to receive any OT posts. they can unsubscribe from the OT list. -paul c.d. >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:02:28 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Hannett George, << Hannett was responsible for the production on Joy Division's "Unknown Pleasures," breaking glass, distant sirens, Ian's claustrophically-impaired voice? It was a masterpiece. Then, he did "Closer"? Great producer. I was mistaken earlier: Martin Rushent produced the Buzzcocks and Pete Shelley's solo albums. Another great producer. George >> Well, I was about to correct you....;-) Rushent recorded a version of Unknown Pleasures before Hannett did - never been released though there are a few bits on the JD box set. This is NOT the Warsaw album BTW. My original point was that Hannett did a fantastic job with JD but the rest of his work is overrated if not crap...eg Magazine. Same tricks - compression and reverb on the drums, loads of reverb on the vocals, tinny synths, chorus on everything. Magic Murder and the Weather is one of the most lifeless recordings imaginable, of a band that was anything but. He even screwed up New Order's Movement....songs from a well-worked live set that was nearly 2 years old.... to the point where NO decided to do it themselves from Power Corruption & Lies on..... One of the things I'd most like is a version of NO's Movement, with all traces of Hannett removed, and produced by someone like Mike Thorne, Martin Rushent or John Leckie. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:07:34 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Des Simmonds (on topic!) Paul, << ///////there's something just not right about that album , it never quite got there for me. i think the best track is the demo done with colin,p >> Agreed. In Kevin E's book Lewis & Gilbert say they were trying different techniques with production - like making Des run round the block before doing his vocals - and that probably turned a decent guitar pop album into something that's neither singing fish nor fowl..... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:10:06 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: tunnel section amublance (was:Hannett) Dan, I'll go into the battered tape box marked "Factory" and see what I have. Probably quite a lot of SXXV and TVN stuff - several complete gigs at the very least, some mixing desk and some audience tapes. Mark << Very much so (ditto for the above-mentioned Section 25 live, for that matter). In return, I seem to own virtually all of the Screamers' surviving oeuvre. >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:45:29 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic Dan, << Speaking of whom, last night it actually crossed my mind after work to delay for a couple of minutes going up to my girlfriend's apartment, because Rock On had just begun on the "classic rock" station. Oh, I guess that didn't help matters much, did it? Damn. >> Lawrence out of Felt said Rock On was the greatest record of the 70s (Lawrence as you know is several sandwiches short of a picnic, but you sort of see his point...such an odd record, especially featured in a film about '50s rock'n'roll) Check out Felt's Space Blues singlefor his Rock On tribute.... Did I just make it worse?? Residents of Bury will tomorrow have their council tax raised.....Pay the Borough!!! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:30:28 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id TYRCMFPS; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:44:36 -0700 To: idealcopy@smoe.org X-Sybari-Space: 00000000 00000000 00000000 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: October Unpleasantness Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:44:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: "Wilson, Paul's" message of "Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:38:50 +0100" <4C28E7C7279DD411822100105A17CFFB012DE644@mailgate.bury.gov.uk> X-Mailer: WRQ Reflection Mail Version 6.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk >Pages and pages of text, and nothing worth reading! > >Enough! On another mailing list that I'm a member of, we call this "The October Unpleasantness". It usually starts Oct. 1, and ends when a long time list member unsubscribes from the list in disgust, then quietly re-subscribes about 3 weeks later. I find it interesting that this syndrome is now occuring on the Ideal Copy mailing list. Who will be the first to unsubscribe, I wonder? (^_^) A thing we might want to do is label all Off topic posts as such in the subject field. I recommend [OFF TOPIC] (or [NON WIRE]) as the first part in the subject line. (e.g. [OFF TOPIC] The Fall are geniuses! ) Then those list members who don't enjoy them can just delete them, and those who enjoy them can read them at their leisure. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:45:59 -0400 From: Katherine Pouliot Subject: Re: Off Topic and On I agree with ya! Even though you were so angry about Moby the other day... hahahah I've been guilty of making long posts and including full quotes, etc., so I'll work on that ... that's my resolve... k ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:27:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Cale On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, giluz wrote: > << Have you read James Young's brilliant book about Nico? ('Songs they never > play on the radio') > He paints a hilarious picture of Cale very at odds with his public image > producing an early 80s Nico album and he's basically a farting, slobbering, > bloated piss artist up to his eyeballs in Coke, attempting to squeeze the > last few drops out of talent out of the (by now) smack-addled Nico who has > losy her looks and been reduced to sharing syringes with J.Cooper Clarke and > his pasty faced mates in Prestwich digs. Quite an eye opener. I saw Cale in Madison in...musta been about the same time as everybody else saw him, mid-eighties. Very scary - I knew a guy who worked at the club, said Cale was snorting up everything in sight backstage. When he came out (it was a solo gig), he sort of lurched about and then absolutely attacked his acoustic guitar to play "Ghost Story" (not sure now if that was the opener); and I clearly remember when he did "Leaving it Up to You" on piano, snarling out the line about "you fascists!" with his eyes bugged out to here, the audience visibly took several steps back from the stage. Quite frightening - but well worth seeing. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::[clever or pithy quote]:: __[source of quote]__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:59:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: your mail On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Wilson, Paul wrote: > As to people prattling on about a band they saw ten years ago - who really > gives a fuck! The people prattling, obviously. > Maybe the list would slow down if it was limited to "on-topics", so what? Is > it so important that we get an enormous email every day? If you're all so > interested about reading about other peoples lives and other off-topic crap, > then I'll have all my other emails from all the other lists I get stuff > from, forwarded to Idealcopy!!!! You seem to have this concept backwards: since many people here are replying to the off-topic stuff, they're clearly interested in it. You're not - so we're supposed to change to accommodate you? > Enough! Indeed - who died and made you king? You don't like the list, don't stay on it. I don't mind the occasional complaints about what is and isn't done - I've made some myself - but your tone here, with its assumption that you and you alone know what the list *should* be, really rankles. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::crumple zones:::::harmful or fatal if swallowed:::::small-craft warning:: ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:16:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Kraftwerk - that'd be not Wire... Anyone heard the pseudo-salsa redoings of Kraftwerk tunes by Senor Coconut y Su Conjunto? hilarious stuff - the songs work surprisingly well in that genre. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::Sting, where is thy death?:: __Alan Gray_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:14:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: I had an idea, too/ re:OT lists On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Trouble with splitting the list is that some of the off-topic posts suddenly > veer back on topic... i really think the best way is to flag up with OT and > then get the emails not the digest so you can delete the OT ones if you > want... If we're voting, Mark's post matches my reasoning. And since we've generally still not managed the trick of deleting trailing replies, what are the odds that we'll master correctly labeling subject lines, eh? ;) - -j ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:07:16 +0100 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: ON TOPIC /////// yeah , nostalgia sure sucks. er , wasn't it you turned up to the garage in a spizzoil t-shirt? Yeah, that was me, so what? ////// well if you're on the digest that's one mail per day. is it so much to scan thru? and , er , from your address aren't you doing this in works time anyway? personally i find this list a good thing to do when someone is paying me to be doing something else. but that's just me..... Yes, I have a "work" email address! I read my personal emails BEFORE I start work, not that it's any business of yours! And that's one of the reasons why I usually receive digest versions from mail lists - so that I CAN actually get some work done. Right, the point I was trying to make is that the list seems to be dominated by just a handful of people at the moment - perhaps everyone else left???? I just gets a bit dull reading loads of stuff about bands other than Wire. I help to run a Residents list which is in fact TWO lists, one for Rez related stuff and the other for off-topic stuff. It works fine. Someone wants to chat about something "off-topic", they tend to mail the main list first, but usually (if they want a discussion to develop), suggest that the discussion carry on in the "off-topic" list. It would be a shame if this list dies, but I've been on several which have, and they've all died due to dwindling numbers of subscribers. And the people who lump first, tend to be the ones who can't cope with all the "off-topic" chat. In the end, the list ends up being left with about twenty people talking rubbish - then it closes! Please, please, don't frighten off the Wire fans who want to talk about Wire. I DO realise that some "off-topic" chat is inevitable (I've been guilty of it myself!), but a line has to be drawn at some point. Afterall, what is the purpose of this list? Why was it set up in the first place? Why do members of Wire themselves never contribute? I often wonder, if this list raised and discussed MAINLY things to do with Wire, would Wire members actually join in from time-to-time? Maybe not. I hope this "topic" is discussed more and more. Sweep it under the carpet - ignore it - and the list WILL die. It will lose it's soul. Have to leave this email reply now - work beckons!!!!! Paul KW (aka rezmole) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:20:56 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: Des Simmonds (on topic!) << ///////there's something just not right about that album , it never quite got there for me. i think the best track is the demo done with colin,p >> Agreed. In Kevin E's book Lewis & Gilbert say they were trying different techniques with production - like making Des run round the block before doing his vocals - and that probably turned a decent guitar pop album into something that's neither singing fish nor fowl..... Mark >> ++++++ that's probably about right. i recall the des interview in an old wmo newsletter where he sounded really pissed off with how his career panned out. it'd have been interesting to have seen those songs done live. i really rate that michael o'shea lp and its a real shame if wmo's sabbatical means it languishes in obscurity.p ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #310 *******************************