From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #308 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, October 11 2000 Volume 03 : Number 308 Today's Subjects: ----------------- reretwodrummers [alan gray ] Re: oh no not prog....... [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] pinkflag.com / ~swim sites ["giluz" ] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Moby = Dick [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [John Roberts ] Nico [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [MarkBursa@aol.com] Hannett (Re: Off Topic: Magazine) ["Syarzhuk Kazachenka" ] Re: Off Topic: Magazine ["Stephen Jackson" ] Re: fall/Ultrafoxx ["tube disaster" ] Ultravox w/&w/out Foxx ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: totally off-subject [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine ["Stephen JC Sheen" ] Even Further Off Topic: Whatever Happened to Carl Marsh? ["Ciscon, Ray" <] Midnight Bahnhof Cafe ["Cambra, Robert" ] Re: totally off-subject ["Stephen JC Sheen" ] Re: Hannett (Re: Off Topic: Magazine) [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: fall/Ultrafoxx [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Hannett [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: eric randomness [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: Hannett (Re: Off Topic: Magazine) [fernando ] Re: totally off-subject [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Hannett [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:44:14 -0400 (EDT) From: alan gray Subject: reretwodrummers >>One of the most awesome openings to a gig was the unveiling of >>the spectacular "two drummers" Fall line-up at Fagin's in >>Manchester in about October 91. Fiery Jack, with Paul Hanley >>and Karl Burns on drums, Lard, >>Svcanlon and Hanley. Extended version, at the end of which >>some wag in the crowd shouted "Mark and the Ants". >>Mark I wish I'd seen that. Fiery jack was one of my all time favorite singles. It can be odd when a band you like try their hand at a slightly more commercial single, it can be dire (especially if they try something slow), but Fiery Jack zipped allong with catchy stuff. Alan PS.Two country style drummers, that would be a bit like the musical equivalent of cross lining. - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:04:36 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: oh no not prog....... I saw the Clash on the London Calling tour - fantastic. LC's a good album - it would have been a great single album....try London calling, Brand new Cadillac, Hateful, Lost in the Supermarket, Spanish bombs, Clampdown, Guns of Brixton, Death or Glory, I'm not down, Train in vain. Even better if you got Armagideon Time in there somewhere. /// first gig i ever saw was the clash at the rainbow may 79 (i fought the law time). magic. but at the time my taste was getting into weirder stuff like joy division or punkier stuff like adam and the ants/ killing joke. london calling then just seemed like an old time rock n roll album and i hated it. now i guess its ok but i wouldn't rave , for me the clash peaked on the first album i'm afraid. I saw some of the Div 2 punks in 79-80 - 999, Chelsea (Right to Work four times), UK Subs....looked prehistoric even then. /////// hard luck , i think i thankfully missed them all. the only chelsea track i own is RTW on "jubilee" ; what a turkey gene october was.p >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:34:02 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: pinkflag.com / ~swim sites I don't know if anyone mentioned it here before, but those eites are absolutely horrible. Everything, from the navigation to the design is so unfriendly & dated (colin & Malka's 1999 tour still appears under 'current'; Wire's short tour of the past months is still on at pinkflag, as if the tour didn't finish). This is kinda weird 'cause these sites are mainly there for mail ordering and info, intended for a specific audience who can't get this information elsewhere. Not to mention posteverything.com, which I guess no one knows when it's gonna be on. I've just payed the regular monthly visit to wireviews - this is an example for a nice friendly site who's organised properly and clearly. Why can't they all be like that? giluz ps. TransAm are currently doing a European tour - don't miss them. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:13:57 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine MMW deserves it, but I always liked Play as a live album. Good choice of tracks and nicely played. Not surprised they stuck lots of it on the box set. Mark >> ///// never bought play but a lot of mag fans hate it ; doesn't sound much wrong with the box set tracks though.are those "alternate mixes" much different to the original MMW tracks? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:16:38 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine << Either Formula or McGeogh was in one of the latter versions of PIL, I believe. >> It was McGeogh. Formula was last spotted on the 2nd Luxuria album, playing keyboards on some tracks. Mark ////// did doyle do anything after the armoury show? in fact i think that band killed off the career of jobson and webb too ; i saw them once and it was a regular yawn-fest.p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:44:28 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Moby = Dick << Best scene in that is when he secures the deal with the businessman and accidentally calls him 'Dad' and then decides to go back to his hotel room to celebrate his sucess..."..A Wank I think!" >> ...whereupon he is disturbed by the cleaner.... fabulous, and soooo accurate! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:46:11 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine Tim, << and there was Eric Random who played with Nico and Caberet Voltaire and ACR I think.... >> real name: Eric Ramsden. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:54:29 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine Paul, << ////// did doyle do anything after the armoury show? in fact i think that band killed off the career of jobson and webb too ; i saw them once and it was a regular yawn-fest.p >> Never seen Doyle on anything. His predecessor, Martin Jackson, formed Swing out Sister, of course, with Andy Connell from ACR. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:59:31 -0700 (PDT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine The name of a band called the Bedlamites springs to mind or am I off track here? - --- MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Tim, > > << and there was Eric Random who played with Nico > and Caberet Voltaire and > ACR I > think.... >> > > real name: Eric Ramsden. > > Mark __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:04:07 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Nico Tim, << Have you read James Young's brilliant book about Nico? ('Songs they never play on the radio') He paints a hilarious picture of Cale very at odds with his public image producing an early 80s Nico album and he's basically a farting, slobbering, bloated piss artist up to his eyeballs in Coke, attempting to squeeze the last few drops out of talent out of the (by now) smack-addled Nico who has losy her looks and been reduced to sharing syringes with J.Cooper Clarke and his pasty faced mates in Prestwich digs. Quite an eye opener. Great book >> Indeed. In fact, I knew a lot of the characters. Young changed many of the names to avoid getting sued, but I know who's who. Nico's manager was a guy called Alan Wise (who died a couple of years ago). Factory/New Hormones hanger-on and local gig promoter. One of the people who worked for him was a friend of mine, guy called Ian Thompson, and when I moved to Birmingham I helped distribute tickets/posters etc for a series of gigs they were putting on there (at an Indian cinema in Moseley). One day (this was late 81 or early 82) Ian came to my crappy student house in Handsowrth to drop some stuff off - - and he had Nico with him. they'd been to London to get some smack for her. What a fucking state. She ended up spilling half the stuff on the road outside. Next morning the council dug the road up. True story. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:15:33 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine John, >>The name of a band called the Bedlamites springs to mind or am I off track here?<< You're spot on. To correct Tim's original mail, Random would have supported the Cabs and ACR many times but not sure he actually played with them. The Bedlamites was one of his bands but he also played solo. Saw him a couple of times, and I have his first album somewhere. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:34:53 EDT From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: Hannett (Re: Off Topic: Magazine) >Apart from JD, Hannett screwed every record he produced >(except Flight by ACR). Genius? Pants. Didn't he also produce Stone Roses's records? (not that I liked them anyway, though "10th storey love song" is one of my favs) Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://belmusic.hypermart.net _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:44:22 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: Cale << Have you read James Young's brilliant book about Nico? ('Songs they never play on the radio') He paints a hilarious picture of Cale very at odds with his public image producing an early 80s Nico album and he's basically a farting, slobbering, bloated piss artist up to his eyeballs in Coke, attempting to squeeze the last few drops out of talent out of the (by now) smack-addled Nico who has losy her looks and been reduced to sharing syringes with J.Cooper Clarke and his pasty faced mates in Prestwich digs. Quite an eye opener. Great book >> I remember Cale doing some gigs in Israel in 1985. Above description seemed to be accurate. He even tried cutting off Ollie Hallsal's (his guitarist) cable during one of the gigs, but couldn't even do it properly. On interviews, he'd say things which had absolutely no relevance to the questions asked or just some foolish remarks like: "Oh yeah, I'd love to get into films. I've got a friend who's a director and he promised me we'd do something together. If he won't keep up to it then I'd just stick a spoon up his arse". My impression was of a very nasty violent person. The gigs were still brilliant, some of the best I've ever seen, and absolutely better than any later gigs of Cale I saw. He looks clean now, doesn't even remember being here in '85 (for him I hope he doesn't). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:57:41 +0100 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine >are those "alternate mixes" much different to the original MMW tracks? p Very. Especially "The Garden" Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:41:57 -0500 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: fall/Ultrafoxx >Having owned up to owning an Enya record, I suppose I might as well now >admit to having all four of John Foxx's albums, as well as a sprinkling >of early Ultravox stuff. What is more I like them, or at least bits of >them. All in the ears of the behearer, but surely in this particular >corner of robot-rock Numan was the talentless chancer, and John Foxx the >underrated innovator? > >Click-click, drone > >Howard > >////// hmmm , my memory is that about ten seconds after numan hit paydirt with are friends electric , john foxx put out his underpass/noones driving type stuff sounding incredibly similar. and also ultravox reformed. and so did kraftwerk. all totally coincidental i'm sure. > >and those first 3 ultravox albums are awful , particularly the first 2. all horrible bowiesms with that dire billie currie violin , together with some desperate attempts at punk. and the "someone told me jesus was the devil's lover/while we masturbated on the magazine cover" must be maybe the worst couplet of the era. i guess "systems of romance" was a bit better but all in all i'm struggling to think of much original or good mr foxx ever came up with.p< Oh, hardly. Perhaps it's just my errant AFOS/Cars/ELO chromosome at work, but I regard Ultravox's first LP as something of a masterpiece, & if memory serves downright groundbreaking at the time in marrying glam (the Eno influence, perhaps), keyboards (much more prominent than on the Stranglers' early stuff) & punk's artier side. (Though, yes, I winced at that couplet you quote when I was compiling a Foxx-era Ultravox tape for a friend a couple of weeks ago ... wound up skipping that one, but virtually everything else on the LP is a keeper.) Ha Ha Ha doesn't hang together nearly as well, though its final track, Hiroshima Mon Amour, is *colossal*. Systems of Romance continues to make no impression on me at all ... I actually came away with more from the first Midge Ure-era LP, Vienna, which is sort of frightening. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:29:42 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: Ultravox w/&w/out Foxx Dan wrote: Oh, hardly. Perhaps it's just my errant AFOS/Cars/ELO chromosome at work, but I regard Ultravox's first LP as something of a masterpiece, & if memory serves downright groundbreaking at the time in marrying glam (the Eno influence, perhaps), keyboards (much more prominent than on the Stranglers' early stuff) & punk's artier side. (Though, yes, I winced at that couplet you quote when I was compiling a Foxx-era Ultravox tape for a friend a couple of weeks ago ... wound up skipping that one, but virtually everything else on the LP is a keeper.) Ha Ha Ha doesn't hang together nearly as well, though its final track, Hiroshima Mon Amour, is *colossal*. Systems of Romance continues to make no impression on me at all ... I actually came away with more from the first Midge Ure-era LP, Vienna, which is sort of frightening. ========= Oh Dan, it's not that frightening... Foxx got worse as he went along. I really like those first two Midge Ure-era LP's. I'm probably the biggest Ultravox fan on this list, and I'm not just talking weight. IMO, most of the John Foxx era Ultravox! albums are just the kind of pretentious tripe we've been putting down in our earlier ELP/Yes discussions. A few of the more minimal, Kraftwerk-ish tracks are listenable, but any time I hear a John Foxx recording, I hear an almost subliminal "I'm an Artist! Aren't I clever!" tone. The first two Midge Ure Ultravox albums 'Vienna', and 'Rage in Eden', IMO are the pinnacle of the 'New Romantic' period (take that for good or bad, depending upon your view). I don't have the punk rock roots that most of the people on this list have, and I trace my early influences back to Kraftwerk, Neu, and other krautrock sources. Because of their obvious influence on Ultravox, particularly those first two Ultravox Mk. 2 albums, I have a warm place in my heart for them. I saw Ultravox live in 1983, and I thought they put on a great show for such a synth heavy outfit. Cheers, Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:27:19 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: totally off-subject You were watching the wrong programme - tonight's University Challenge featured the excitement of a question about A Flock of Seagulls. Unfortunately it was in neither the music nor the picture round, but just a question about the derivation of the name. Some credit to the students of today - they got the question wrong and met Jeremy Paxman's apparently well-informed reading of the answer with complete bemusement and absence of recognition. ///// so what answer did paxman give ; i mean i've heard at least 2 different ones.... p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:12:20 +0100 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine Interested parties are referred to www.shotbybothsides.com for further Magazine facts and figures. For instance, it is claimed that John Doyle now strums guitar for Winnie the Pooh and any and every traditional Irish compilation LP, as well as finding time to star in "Babe". Also reveals current whereabouts of Dave Formula, hawking a New Orleans funk group around the Midlands and Yorkshire. Somewhat obseessive. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:40:40 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: Even Further Off Topic: Whatever Happened to Carl Marsh? With talk about the whereabouts of the various members of Magazine, I've got a couple of questions about one of the founding members of Shriekback, Carl Marsh. What happened that caused him to split from Barry Andrews, Dave Allen, & Martyn Barker after Shriekback's "Oil & Gold" release? Where's he at, and/or what's he up to? Why do I ask? Because my wife has recently become obsessed with Carl Marsh's 'HappyHead' CD, 'Give Happyhead'. I always admired his vocal delivery, and his intelligent, but tongue-in-cheek lyrics... So where's he at now? Cheers, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:41:04 -0400 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: Midnight Bahnhof Cafe I'm bidding on this, too, Mark; but all's fair . . . don't worry about the rain. Robert (abovo) << Tomorrow bidding closes for a copy of Midnight Bahnhof Cafe Nostalgia. It looks like a few people from this list are bidding against each other! >> Who else from the list is bidding? Mine is pretty transparent as I don't use a nickname. I know I'm the highest bidder at the moment but the reserve hasn't been met. I might have another dabble - but I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. So let the list know if you're bidding please! Cheers, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:30:49 +0100 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: totally off-subject You were watching the wrong programme - tonight's University Challenge featured the excitement of a question about A Flock of Seagulls. Unfortunately it was in neither the music nor the picture round, but just a question about the derivation of the name. ///// so what answer did paxman give ; i mean i've heard at least 2 different ones.... p +++ The answer was "AFoS", but the question was a somewhat oblique reference to "Jonathon Livingstone Seagull", relying on you knowing who the author of the book was to establish the sea bird link. Thanks to the BBC for clearing that up - I had always suspected that the derivation came from the inference of substantial amounts of guano. +++ Other questions (roughly) - "which band from Manchester (sic) with a sound centred on the organ have a name that indicates that they are the pretenders to special knowledge" and "which group formally named the Jennifers are now named after a slang term for marijuana". The students did get these two right. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:40:46 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Hannett (Re: Off Topic: Magazine) Syarzhuk, << Didn't he also produce Stone Roses's records? (not that I liked them anyway, though "10th storey love song" is one of my favs) >> No. The ever-reliable John Leckie did the first album and someone called Simon Dawson did the second. Peter Hook produced "Elephant Stone", which is operhaps the JD connectiuon you were thinking of? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:43:48 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine Paul, << >are those "alternate mixes" much different to the original MMW tracks? p >> Yes, they've been 'De-Hannetted' so the drums are now very flat - no reverb. Howie is still singing from down a lift shaft though. Better than the album, but doesn't conceal the weakness of the material. McGeogh's departure was very damaging to the band. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:48:32 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: fall/Ultrafoxx Dan, << Oh, hardly. Perhaps it's just my errant AFOS/Cars/ELO chromosome at work, but I regard Ultravox's first LP as something of a masterpiece, & if memory serves downright groundbreaking at the time in marrying glam (the Eno influence, perhaps), keyboards (much more prominent than on the Stranglers' early stuff) & punk's artier side. (Though, yes, I winced at that couplet you quote when I was compiling a Foxx-era Ultravox tape for a friend a couple of weeks ago ... wound up skipping that one, but virtually everything else on the LP is a keeper.) Ha Ha Ha doesn't hang together nearly as well, though its final track, Hiroshima Mon Amour, is *colossal*. Systems of Romance continues to make no impression on me at all ... I actually came away with more from the first Midge Ure-era LP, Vienna, which is sort of frightening. >> I'm with you on those albums, though I haven't heard them for years. I think I have tapes of all three. Not masterpieces, but pretty good - like a more pretentious Magazine in some ways. Preferred the second one to the first, and like you, was underwhelmed by Systems of Romance. Hiroshima is definitely the standout. The Man who dies evey day also sticks in the mind... Didn't care much for Midge-era. Saw them live, too. Disappointing - Midge despertaley trying to get back into the charts (having been there with Slik but blown it with his best band, the Rich Kids). Mark Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:22:17 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: Hannett i'm a big factory records fan, so perhaps i'm a bit biased when it comes to mr hannett's work. section 25's always now is brilliant. i've always been interested to hear some of his non-factory work that i'm unfamiliar with. - -other 36 yr old paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:51:35 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: eric randomness In a message dated 10/10/0 10:07:46 AM, johnroberts_stats@yahoo.com writes: >The name of a band called the Bedlamites springs to >mind or am I off track here? eric random and the bedlamites it is! "mad as mankind" on doublevision, is produced by kirk & mal. random also played tablas on the cabs album "micro-phonies". the album "ishmael" features bernard moss, martin hennin and anthony quigley, for the acr/kalima/factory connection. - -other paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:04:50 -0700 From: fernando Subject: Re: Hannett (Re: Off Topic: Magazine) In actuality, Hannett produced the first album by the Stone Roses, but it was never released... and only the first 12in ("So Young"/"Tell Me") was issued from the recording sessions. However, as with many groups being milked, the album made its way onto CD as GARAGE FLOWERS on (gasp!) Garage Flowers Records. It has the markings of European releases near the bar code in the back. The CD does not credit any producer, but I remember reading about Hannett producing the aborted first album. Perhaps www.cddb.com has the track listing (I am too lazy to type them). - -fernando At 06:40 p -0400 10/10/2000, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >Syarzhuk, > ><< Didn't he also produce Stone Roses's records? (not that I liked them >anyway, > though "10th storey love song" is one of my favs) > >> > >No. The ever-reliable John Leckie did the first album and someone called >Simon Dawson did the second. Peter Hook produced "Elephant Stone", which is >operhaps the JD connectiuon you were thinking of? > >Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:55:36 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: totally off-subject ///// so what answer did paxman give ; i mean i've heard at least 2 different ones.... p +++ The answer was "AFoS", but the question was a somewhat oblique reference to "Jonathon Livingstone Seagull", relying on you knowing who the author of the book was to establish the sea bird link. Thanks to the BBC for clearing that up - I had always suspected that the derivation came from the inference of substantial amounts of guano. ///// i've said this befoe , but in their early days i heard the singer say the name was after the line in the stranglers "toiler on the sea" , they changed the story when they got "famous". +++ Other questions (roughly) - "which band from Manchester (sic) with a sound centred on the organ have a name that indicates that they are the pretenders to special knowledge" and "which group formally named the Jennifers are now named after a slang term for marijuana". The students did get these two right. //////well i'm struggling on both i'm afraid.p >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:59:51 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: Hannett << i'm a big factory records fan, so perhaps i'm a bit biased when it comes to mr hannett's work. section 25's always now is brilliant. i've always been interested to hear some of his non-factory work that i'm unfamiliar with. - -other 36 yr old paul >> ///// there's a really good compilation called "martin" released after he died. stuff like jilted john , OMD , JCC, early U2 , mondays , slaughter as well as JD/NO. p ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #308 *******************************